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Block Ukx
KDM Corp Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2008.01.23 01:15:00 -
[1]
I regret to inform our investors that BSAC suffer its first corporation theft. Approximately two nights ago, Josephine Dirt stole several ships that were freely available to our corp members for general purpose and clean out one of our headquarters corp equipment and modules hangar. Total lost to our members was about 90,000,000 ISK and about 110,000,000 ISK to BSACÆs newest venture.
I really hope ccp steps up and give corporations some ways to combat corp theft. As it stands there is nothing I can do to recover the loss.
BSAC Mineral Market Manipulation (MinMa) Information Desk |
Minerva Vulcan
Caldari The Nexus Foundation Endless Horizon
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Posted - 2008.01.23 01:28:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Block Ukx I really hope ccp steps up and give corporations some ways to combat corp theft.
Well... there is.
It's called roles, and being careful who you give them to and what you make readily accessable to anyone. _______________________________ I need new voices in my head, To speak my secret evils with. I need new lovers in my bed, To be my friends and special pets. |
Xerpex
Ars ex Discordia
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Posted - 2008.01.23 01:47:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Minerva Vulcan
Originally by: Block Ukx I really hope ccp steps up and give corporations some ways to combat corp theft.
Well... there is.
It's called roles, and being careful who you give them to and what you make readily accessable to anyone.
There's also guns...
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Block Ukx
KDM Corp Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2008.01.23 01:50:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Minerva Vulcan Well... there is.
It's called roles, and being careful who you give them to and what you make readily accessable to anyone.
He didnÆt have any roles, just access to the hangars with ships, equipment, and ammo.
ItÆs kind of pointless to run a corporation and not give members hangar access. The arrangement we have is very useful to all of our members. However, is vulnerable to a bad apple.
BSAC Mineral Market Manipulation (MinMa) Information Desk |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.01.23 02:26:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Block Ukx I really hope ccp steps up and give corporations some ways to combat corp theft. As it stands there is nothing I can do to recover the loss.
What exactly do you want CCP to do? What methods should corps have to stop this?
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Minerva Vulcan
Caldari The Nexus Foundation Endless Horizon
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Posted - 2008.01.23 02:26:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Block Ukx He didnÆt have any roles, just access to the hangars with ships, equipment, and ammo.
ItÆs kind of pointless to run a corporation and not give members hangar access. The arrangement we have is very useful to all of our members. However, is vulnerable to a bad apple.
You still control what you put and keep into the hangers, and what you find acceptable to potentially lose. (This is EVE, after all.) _______________________________ I need new voices in my head, To speak my secret evils with. I need new lovers in my bed, To be my friends and special pets. |
Block Ukx
KDM Corp Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2008.01.23 02:51:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Minerva Vulcan You still control what you put and keep into the hangers, and what you find acceptable to potentially lose. (This is EVE, after all.)
No I donÆt. Members were adding equipment on an as needed basis for other members to use. It is a nice environment that encourages mutual collaboration, where people can do things together as a group; a corporation. And I donÆt believe in micromanaging the corporation.
The current system hinders corporation growth and encourages distrust among members. I donÆt know what ccp should do, but I know this part of the game is completely unbalanced.
BSAC Mineral Market Manipulation (MinMa) Information Desk |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.01.23 03:03:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Block Ukx
Originally by: Minerva Vulcan You still control what you put and keep into the hangers, and what you find acceptable to potentially lose. (This is EVE, after all.)
No I donÆt. Members were adding equipment on an as needed basis for other members to use. It is a nice environment that encourages mutual collaboration, where people can do things together as a group; a corporation. And I donÆt believe in micromanaging the corporation.
The current system hinders corporation growth and encourages distrust among members. I donÆt know what ccp should do, but I know this part of the game is completely unbalanced.
You have no clue how it should be changed... so you're really just whining about the game working as intended. If you can't even come up with a possible change then why do you say CCP should do something? You think they can magically make people not scam/steal/etc? If they did it wouldn't be in the spirit of the game they created.
You have the tools to stop someone from stealing... but you choose to be more open and trusting. You choose to let someone have the ability to steal from you. It's all down to you trusting someone that didn't deserve it. You got burned this time... it seems you've got to live with it or suggest a real fix. But you can't say there are no tools to stop it, you just didn't use them.
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Block Ukx
KDM Corp Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2008.01.23 03:20:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Shadarle
You have the tools to stop someone from stealing...
No, you don't.
This post is to tell investors that a corp theft has occurred.
BSAC Mineral Market Manipulation (MinMa) Information Desk |
Minerva Vulcan
Caldari The Nexus Foundation Endless Horizon
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Posted - 2008.01.23 03:21:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Block Ukx No I donÆt. Members were adding equipment on an as needed basis for other members to use. It is a nice environment that encourages mutual collaboration, where people can do things together as a group; a corporation. And I donÆt believe in micromanaging the corporation.
The current system hinders corporation growth and encourages distrust among members. I donÆt know what ccp should do, but I know this part of the game is completely unbalanced.
Being that it was largely donated equipment from other members then it wasn't a direct hit to your corp wallet except for maybe a few things then.
If that's the way you structure your corp then that's fine, but you leave the stuff in those hangers succeptable to be nicked.
What do you want CCP to do, make an Honesty Detector that will only allow honest people corp hanger access? _______________________________ I need new voices in my head, To speak my secret evils with. I need new lovers in my bed, To be my friends and special pets. |
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.01.23 03:30:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Block Ukx
Originally by: Shadarle
You have the tools to stop someone from stealing...
No, you don't.
You absolutely 100% do have the ability to prevent theft. You chose to make items available. You chose to let that individual access those items. You chose to not use the tools at your disposal.
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Minerva Vulcan
Caldari The Nexus Foundation Endless Horizon
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Posted - 2008.01.23 03:32:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Block Ukx
Originally by: Shadarle
You have the tools to stop someone from stealing...
No, you don't.
This post is to tell investors that a corp theft has occurred.
But it being that it was largely all donated equipment from corp members, how does this effect your investors any?
Just have the community that is your corp members donate like they were before and get stocks back up. _______________________________ I need new voices in my head, To speak my secret evils with. I need new lovers in my bed, To be my friends and special pets. |
Block Ukx
KDM Corp Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2008.01.23 03:40:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Shadarle You absolutely 100% do have the ability to prevent theft. You chose to make items available. You chose to let that individual access those items. You chose to not use the tools at your disposal.
No, you don't.
What is the purpose of a corp hangar? A copr hangar is there for members to share corporation resources. Once an item is share by the corp is completly vulnerable to theft. Therfore, you don't have any control over corp theft.
BSAC Mineral Market Manipulation (MinMa) Information Desk |
Block Ukx
KDM Corp Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2008.01.23 03:44:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Minerva Vulcan Just have the community that is your corp members donate like they were before and get stocks back up.
Yes, we will re-stock again. However, the moral in the corp is very low at the present time, and knowing that they canÆt do anything about it does not help.
BSAC Mineral Market Manipulation (MinMa) Information Desk |
Astorothe
Aperture Science Industries
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Posted - 2008.01.23 03:54:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Block Ukx
Originally by: Shadarle You absolutely 100% do have the ability to prevent theft. You chose to make items available. You chose to let that individual access those items. You chose to not use the tools at your disposal.
No, you don't.
What is the purpose of a corp hangar? A copr hangar is there for members to share corporation resources. Once an item is share by the corp is completly vulnerable to theft. Therfore, you don't have any control over corp theft.
You're going to want to let Shad have the last word - he's pretty stubborn like that. We get that you dont agree with him.
Ze logs show NOTHING! ~ Eve Corp and Fansite Web design, development and hosting services
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Caliwyrm O'Libr
Red Eye .Inc.
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Posted - 2008.01.23 04:03:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Block Ukx
Originally by: Shadarle You absolutely 100% do have the ability to prevent theft. You chose to make items available. You chose to let that individual access those items. You chose to not use the tools at your disposal.
No, you don't.
What is the purpose of a corp hangar? A copr hangar is there for members to share corporation resources. Once an item is share by the corp is completly vulnerable to theft. Therfore, you don't have any control over corp theft.
And you're in charge of HOW MUCH ISK?
You most certainly have control over HOW MUCH is in the hangar. If you had 30 Badger IIs did you really need all of them in a public hangar? Why not just keep 5 in the hangar and when those 5 are gone move 5 more over from a Director Only hangar? Same with ammo.. Does a corp REALLY need 200k Wrath missiles in a public hangar only to whine about it when they're ALL stolen leaving them with none? =======
Talk is cheap because supply always outweighs demand.. |
Levin Cavil
Applied Eugenics
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Posted - 2008.01.23 04:07:00 -
[17]
Block Ukx, is your corp recruiting? I have a 3 year old noob alt that could really use a home.
EVE: Where good things happen to bad people. |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.01.23 04:08:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Astorothe
Originally by: Block Ukx
Originally by: Shadarle You absolutely 100% do have the ability to prevent theft. You chose to make items available. You chose to let that individual access those items. You chose to not use the tools at your disposal.
No, you don't.
What is the purpose of a corp hangar? A copr hangar is there for members to share corporation resources. Once an item is share by the corp is completly vulnerable to theft. Therfore, you don't have any control over corp theft.
You're going to want to let Shad have the last word - he's pretty stubborn like that. We get that you dont agree with him.
I think it's pretty clear who's right here. And it's not that I don't understand his point, but he is missing the larger point.
Everything in EVE is about trust. If you trust the wrong person you will get burned. That's just how it is.
In other games I've been in large guilds with large banks and completely open vaults for full members, not a single item was stolen. Why? We had 100% trust of everyone that became a full member. If we did not trust someone 100% then we didn't even allow them ino the guild. We had 30+ people in one guild and never once had a stolen item over a 18+ month period. If we had even the slightest doubt in someone they weren't going to be let in.
In another guild I was in we had multiple vaults with different restrictions. The super valuable stuff was in a vault for GL's only. The next best stuff was officer only, the generic stuff people needed was freely available... and some very basic stuff was available to new recruits. It worked very well.
All of this is completely possible to do in EVE. You choose to allow everyone to access the hangar that has everything in it. This is not a fault of CCP that you were robbed, it is misplaced trust. You can argue that trust is sometimes needed, but you can't give that trust away freely and then complain that it is CCP's fault. Well, you can... but it's rather pathetic to do so.
Finally, this is a pretty tiny loss. 200 mill or less. What moron steals such a tiny amount of stuff? I think the thief is a moron for not waiting for a larger haul.
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Assens Letta
Hunerian Science Institute Te-Ka
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Posted - 2008.01.23 04:12:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Block Ukx
Originally by: Shadarle You absolutely 100% do have the ability to prevent theft. You chose to make items available. You chose to let that individual access those items. You chose to not use the tools at your disposal.
No, you don't.
What is the purpose of a corp hangar? A copr hangar is there for members to share corporation resources. Once an item is share by the corp is completly vulnerable to theft. Therfore, you don't have any control over corp theft.
that is why there are multiple hangars and roles that can be defined where ppl can acess them and where, such as defining "based at" for some chars.
tbh your corp teft is peanuts to some security breaches that have occurred in the past, as in BoB for instance.
Yes, you are upset, yes THAT particular member stole from the corp., you are now asking for CCP to put more safety measures in place, unless youre thinking of "mind control" i believe CCP has already given us enough tools to prevent that, in the end its allbout trust or lack of it and damage control (more or less itens available to a group of member at any given time), on that particular case u gave too much of the 1st and had few of the 2nd in place (or maybe you had some.... thus the teft not being bigger, only you can be the judge of that).
reporting the theft is pretty normal, whinning against CCP in this particular instance is not.
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Daeva Vios
Ares Arms and Modules LLC
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Posted - 2008.01.23 04:14:00 -
[20]
The argument itself is pointless. Things have been this way for as long as they've had corp hangars and roles. I don't see them changing things soon.
CCP likes to encourage a PvP environment in every activity except perhaps forum posting (and even that only has a few extra rules attached) and that includes intra-corp, it seems. I do think the best course of action would be just to put most of the stuff in a side hangar and move it out when supplies run short. You don't give every soldier a free access pass to all the munitions, you give the munitions as necessary and as supplies permit.
Learn from your mistakes.
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Poison
House of Kobal
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Posted - 2008.01.23 05:59:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Block Ukx
Originally by: Minerva Vulcan Just have the community that is your corp members donate like they were before and get stocks back up.
Yes, we will re-stock again. However, the moral in the corp is very low at the present time, and knowing that they canÆt do anything about it does not help.
Tell your people I am going to help them.
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Templer Relleg
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.01.23 06:42:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Levin Cavil Block Ukx, is your corp recruiting? I have a 3 year old noob alt that could really use a home.
I lol'ed Hi Levin <3
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2008.01.23 06:46:00 -
[23]
The mechanics DO work as intended as i see it. You can set roles so the person cant take from the hangars. If you didnt trust the person, WHY did he get access?
Im sorry Ukx. But its your own fault as i see it. The art of corp theft is by no means new, its rather old(Just ask Levin). And you didn't seem to follow standard practice as to how to prevent it.
No offence, im sorry to hear about theft. But you should maybe try and revise how the hangar roles are given out.
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YouGotRipped
Gallente Ewigkeit Galactic Research
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Posted - 2008.01.23 06:50:00 -
[24]
I have to agree, you should be more careful when assigning hangar access roles. A failure on your part which means you'll have to compensate those poor investors from your own pocket.
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triffic
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Posted - 2008.01.23 07:31:00 -
[25]
Originally by: YouGotRipped you'll have to compensate those poor investors from your own pocket.
hah. Investment in eve works on the same principle as corp membership: trust. "You'll have too" is the wrong turn of phrase here. Try "Please don't give up and take all the investors money sir please". Thats more like it.
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Ahn Riane
Blue Star Surveying and Mapping Zzz
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Posted - 2008.01.23 08:15:00 -
[26]
200m is a fair price for getting rid of a corp thief. See it that way and realise, you have made a good deal after all
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Confuzer
Polaris Project Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.23 09:57:00 -
[27]
Only 200 mil? Howmany investors do you have, one?
Just do a huge mining op with your corp for one evening, and you get more back ^^ ----------------- Destiny is not a matter of chance. It is a matter of choice. It's not a thing to be waited for - it is a thing to be achieved. |
Danari
Amarr Viper Squad Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.23 11:18:00 -
[28]
Hmm, competent risk management and recruiting are... important?
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Minerva Vulcan
Caldari The Nexus Foundation Endless Horizon
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Posted - 2008.01.23 12:04:00 -
[29]
Seeing as how it was just junk donated stuff, I don't see how this should effect investors any. _______________________________ I need new voices in my head, To speak my secret evils with. I need new lovers in my bed, To be my friends and special pets. |
Kirjava
Lothian Quay Industries Zzz
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Posted - 2008.01.23 12:52:00 -
[30]
The solution is called roles and using station warehouses, password them and change their access rights. Warehouses in one hangar can create multiple sub warehhouses, not a perfect solution but the closest you can get.
~Nyron
Originally by: Minerva Vulcan But poor victimized Ulf...I weep lavender scented tears for you.
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