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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Riethe
Fine Goods for Fine Gentlemen
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Posted - 2008.01.28 16:05:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Robacz I dont think that Titan production can be end-game for industry oriented player. It is more about combat/politics than about industry. Besides market for these things is very limited and I am not even sure if if can be economically viable.
I honestly don't see production of single-purpose ship as an end game or some kind of goal.
End game in EVE is whatever you decide you want to apply yourself to.
Since everyone in this thread fails to realize that, the next best option is producing Titans.
Titans are not single-purpose, either.
You could also say that Motherships are more about combat/politics yet people completely unrelated to combat they will see produce them.
However if you step back and think about when Motherships were first introduced, you can see the differences in availability are vast--I believe the same is capable with titans.
(it may not be happen at the same rate or to the same degree, but even if you look around these forums you can find people starting up discussion about titan based IPOs, and just recently we saw a titan sale.)
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YouGotRipped
Gallente Ewigkeit Galactic Research
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Posted - 2008.01.28 16:06:00 -
[32]
Edited by: YouGotRipped on 28/01/2008 16:07:43
Originally by: Robacz
Originally by: Riethe As Ricdic said, end game is building titans.
Until Titans are produced like motherships are produced right now, you don't really have a whole lot you can complain about.
There's nothing lacking--that is end game. Just because you'd prefer a separate end game doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Just out of curiosity, of the people here that are signing the OP and agreeing there are lacking aspects to market and industrial areas, can you afford to run a titan production business yet?
Can you pay for the space and the defense and the materials? Do you have the time and patience and mentality to handle that?
Chances are, everyone except Shadarle answered no to that.
The point is, the hardcore, expensive, time consuming, monotonous, rich, exclusive area of industry does exist.
I dont think that Titan production can be end-game for industry oriented player. It is more about combat/politics than about industry. Besides market for these things is very limited and I am not even sure if if can be economically viable.
I honestly don't see production of single-purpose ship as an end game or some kind of goal.
Of course it's not an end game objective. The experience/exact steps are always the same whether you build a carrier or a damn shuttle. As long as there will be unexplored sections of the game people will always find something that is worth turning into an "end game objective" but this is very relative. I say we continue to derail the thread into researching motivational overdose and the total lack of interest that entails it.
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Brisco Smiley
Peppermint Bay Trading Company
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Posted - 2008.01.28 16:10:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Kwint Sommer The only thing I can think of doing once you reach that kind of income is to get together with a few other equally wealthy individuals and pay a mercenary alliance like MC to move to, take over and guard a region for us so that we would have sufficient sovereignty to safely enter production of Titans and any other capitals worth our time. Presumably mining all of the moons with the substantially reduced fuel costs granted by sovereignty would cover the costs of keeping the mercenary alliance there and we could auction off the rights to mine the region to a mining corp and then post empire equivalent buy prices in region so that we would not just get a sizable fee for mining rights but we wouldn't need to import a ton of our minerals. Amusing as this would be it would probably only work once, if that, and after having done it we would still have the same problems. Which leads me to join you in your conclusion that CCP needs to throw some "high-end" content our way.
That would be epic. You would go from being a player of the game to being a feature. If I had a vast, personal fortune, I would sink it all on such a project in a heartbeat. Perhaps that is why I do not yet have a vast, personal fortune.
Cheers,
Brisco Smiley Peppermint Bay Trading Company -- Someday I'll fly too...
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Motivated Prophet
Zerodot Schools Power Corrupts Industry's
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Posted - 2008.01.28 17:14:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Adrimar
Originally by: Riethe *snip*
PS: Player stations in high sec could be very cool. Off the top of my head, though, I would say a requirement is that it isn't "player" owned, but "Alliance" owned, just to encourage more group oriented efforts there.
Nobody who has proposed this has made a clear statement whether or not they would be open to capture or destruction. It they are safe from either then they will probably only make the situation the OP wants to get avoid worse.
My vision would have a continuous bidding process on a limited amount of station "real estate". Anyone can bid, though bids are binding. At the end of the bidding process for each week, a bill is issued for each station's owner in that system. The station owner must pay that bill, or his charter lapses. A station with a lapsed charter still exists, but it's removed from the right-click menu and the overview, and none of the (union) tugboats will tow a ship into your station (i.e., you can't dock. Damn organized labor!). At that point, the top bidder from the auction has bought the slot and can now build his own station, or if he had a pre-existing station with a lapsed charter, he can re-activate it (or he can even activate some else's station, though he of course gets no benefit from doing so other than the ability to dock there if he had assets stranded, and possibly some negotiating capital).
Think the Las Vegas Strip, only with the effect of property taxes magnified. If you aren't making enough money off your (casino||station), the value of the land underneath you will dwarf your net revenue, and between taxes and sheer best-interest-of-your-shareholders, you'll sell the land rather than continue operations.
And, yeah, a basic station offers nothing but fitting services. It's the Motel 8. Eventually, you can upgrade and upgrade until you get Project CityCenter. As the marginal cost of upgrades is a one-time payment, accompanied by, at most, nominal maintenance costs, the incentives are to build megauberstations with every upgrade in the universe tacked on.
MP --
Proud steward of 47 billion isk in public money, and counting. Ask me about mineral compressionexpansion! WTF? |
Leowen
Industrial Giants
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Posted - 2008.01.28 17:53:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Adrimar A few things to consider when you want a new high price tag toy:
1) You probably don't want it to be easily destroyed.
2) You probably don't want it to leave highsec.
3) You want it to help you make more isk.
4) You will probably only need 1.
If you consider all this I ask you exactly how such a toy will help relieve the problem? You'll get one and then be bored again. Should CCP put it the "ultra large ship mark I" for 100 billion followed by the mark 2 for 250 billion and the mark 3 for 500?
I do the market and industry side of eve myself, but I also do other things in eve. When I notice that I have more than enough isk to fund everything I take a break and go lose some of my isk. If you cannot or are not willing to do this then I don't see how anybody can help you. You have, to use a WoW term, gotten all the "epix" that you can at level 70. Other than in WoW, you can actually do something else in this game. Go join an alliance and manage their production side including all the POS. If that isn't enough of a challenge, then I don't know what is.
I understand your point but disagree. You can say that of everything in EVE, and if you want to go right back to basics, why have cruisers when everyone could have just stuck to T1 frigs? Putting cruisers in just levelled the game so everyone was back where they started right?
EVE is a game, and people like to be entertained and challenged in games. THere are lots of industrialists these days struggling to find either. To my first post - I've only been active about 2-2.5 years and I'm already out of challenges. Most of the old-timers who are trillionaires by now have either completely or virtually given up on EVE. That's a shame.
We need another challenge that's all, something new at the top of the tree. Whatever it is, yes it will get old at some point, but that's no reason not to have it.
Leo
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Adrimar
Absolutely No Retreat
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Posted - 2008.01.28 18:50:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Leowen
Originally by: Adrimar *snip*
I understand your point but disagree. You can say that of everything in EVE, and if you want to go right back to basics, why have cruisers when everyone could have just stuck to T1 frigs? Putting cruisers in just levelled the game so everyone was back where they started right?
EVE is a game, and people like to be entertained and challenged in games. THere are lots of industrialists these days struggling to find either. To my first post - I've only been active about 2-2.5 years and I'm already out of challenges. Most of the old-timers who are trillionaires by now have either completely or virtually given up on EVE. That's a shame.
We need another challenge that's all, something new at the top of the tree. Whatever it is, yes it will get old at some point, but that's no reason not to have it.
Leo
You missed the main point of my post. All smaller things can be destroyed, even in highsec. Those ships that are too tough to be suicide ganked are limited to lowsec. Even those ships that were almost invulnerable in lowsec (motehrships) were given a new counter (Heavy Interdictors).
Why should highsec industrialists be give something that can make them a lot of money (5% return doesn't sound like much, but 5% return on 500 billion is a hell of a lot) which cannot be taken from them? Even Tech 2 BPOs can (and have) been lost in transport.
Would you buy a 500 billion isk toy that I can suicide gank with 20 to 30 battleships? Most probably not.
Would you buy a 500 billion isk toy that can only be used in lowsec? Most probably not.
What you want is a safe way to spend your isk on a safe end-game toy and knowing CCP that isn't going to happen any time soon.
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SiJira
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Posted - 2008.01.28 19:09:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Adrimar
You missed the main point of my post. All smaller things can be destroyed, even in highsec. Those ships that are too tough to be suicide ganked are limited to lowsec. Even those ships that were almost invulnerable in lowsec (motehrships) were given a new counter (Heavy Interdictors).
Why should highsec industrialists be give something that can make them a lot of money (5% return doesn't sound like much, but 5% return on 500 billion is a hell of a lot) which cannot be taken from them? Even Tech 2 BPOs can (and have) been lost in transport.
Would you buy a 500 billion isk toy that I can suicide gank with 20 to 30 battleships? Most probably not.
Would you buy a 500 billion isk toy that can only be used in lowsec? Most probably not.
What you want is a safe way to spend your isk on a safe end-game toy and knowing CCP that isn't going to happen any time soon.
you might not understand how boring it is doing the same thing people with 10 billion do but with dozens of alts to make it work for 1 trillion Trashed sig, Shark was here |
Adrimar
Absolutely No Retreat
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Posted - 2008.01.28 19:22:00 -
[38]
Originally by: SiJira
Originally by: Adrimar
You missed the main point of my post. All smaller things can be destroyed, even in highsec. Those ships that are too tough to be suicide ganked are limited to lowsec. Even those ships that were almost invulnerable in lowsec (motehrships) were given a new counter (Heavy Interdictors).
Why should highsec industrialists be give something that can make them a lot of money (5% return doesn't sound like much, but 5% return on 500 billion is a hell of a lot) which cannot be taken from them? Even Tech 2 BPOs can (and have) been lost in transport.
Would you buy a 500 billion isk toy that I can suicide gank with 20 to 30 battleships? Most probably not.
Would you buy a 500 billion isk toy that can only be used in lowsec? Most probably not.
What you want is a safe way to spend your isk on a safe end-game toy and knowing CCP that isn't going to happen any time soon.
you might not understand how boring it is doing the same thing people with 10 billion do but with dozens of alts to make it work for 1 trillion
Oh, I do, why I don't do it.
On the other hand: You avoided the part about the risk free isk making machine.
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SiJira
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Posted - 2008.01.28 19:27:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Adrimar
Oh, I do, why I don't do it.
On the other hand: You avoided the part about the risk free isk making machine.
maybe because most people here arent asking for that? Trashed sig, Shark was here |
Danari
Amarr Viper Squad Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.28 21:11:00 -
[40]
That old game of watching an imaginary number get larger getting you down eh.
Buy a mom, undock it in lowsec and go wild. Think of it as carebear goes postal. If you lose it well the game is a lot more interesting as a starving industrialist.
Or hire some mercs to grief your competition. Why be an H Ross Perot ("Ya see, the economy is like a Ford pickup. You don't replace the engine if it just needs a set of plugs") when you could be Vito Corleone?
Bottom line is there is no higher order game in this game than the projection of power.
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Leowen
Industrial Giants
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Posted - 2008.01.28 21:17:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Adrimar
What you want is a safe way to spend your isk on a safe end-game toy and knowing CCP that isn't going to happen any time soon.
Hmmm nope that's not what I want at all, though thanks for trying to tell me my mind. I'm not asking for a risk-less isk-printing machine. All I'm saying is that some thought needs to be given to high-end challenges for industrialists. The only valid one mentioned so far is Titan production, but as someone said that's as much about combat and territory as it is about industry.
There are some good ideas bouncing around in here, and I've seen a lot more in the Ideas board, but what I'm really hoping for here is some consensus opinion that it needs to be looked at in some way.
TBH I don't really carte what CCP put in, but I truly believe they need to put something in to a) challenge the uber-rich and b) soak up some ISK. Not for me, really I do mean that, but for the greater good of EVE's future.
Leo
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2008.01.28 21:33:00 -
[42]
I have no doubt that their are plans for greater isk sinks. However the higher level of gameplay in eve should.... nay... MUST combine industry, territory, and combat. While you may choose to hyper-specialize in industry or trading and avoid involving yourself in the other sides of the game is a testament to the flexibility of Eve, not a lack. What you lack you choose not to go looking for at all.
And that is totally upon your own head. |
Oleksiy1
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Posted - 2008.01.28 22:00:00 -
[43]
In real life people cannot buy time. In eve world time equals skill points. I think that buying skill points would be a great thing. It MUST be very expensive, but still it must be possible. Buying time is a thrilling experience.
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Leowen
Industrial Giants
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Posted - 2008.01.28 23:02:00 -
[44]
Buying skill points is easy.
Character and Timecode Bazaar...
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Callisto Ares
Companion Cube Industries
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Posted - 2008.01.28 23:59:00 -
[45]
I'd like to be able to buy and run my own space station at some point if CCP could ever make that interesting and somewhat profitable.
Once you get past trying to win with the biggest wallet, there should be something further to grasp for to make your mark with. A lot of us that enjoy the whole market and industry game want ownership just as much as the 0.0 players.
I just have never seen the advantage or point of joining a 0.0 corp as an industrialist rather than staying solo and building up my own economic empire.
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Katherine Sharpe
Caldari Lifeware
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Posted - 2008.01.29 00:53:00 -
[46]
A different spin on this high end goals:
Might I suggest that this is not just an eve problem but a RL problem too. However in RL the obscenely rich use their money to fund charities and public buildings. Their solution is to do things to make their name immortal.
The equivalent to a charity would be donating ISK to the many many contributors who build a lot of tools (evemon, eft etc)or do free work for the system (eve-radio). In game charities could be giving money to the eve-university (or hiring protection for them).
As for public buildings - build a POS in high-sec and donate it to the general public.
Maybe CCP could offer to name a station after one of the super-rich. Who wouldn't want to paste their name on Jita-4-4? Now that would be immortality - cheap at 1 trillion ISK.
The challenge then is to come up with a better way to give away the most to do the most good.
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Adrimar
Absolutely No Retreat
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Posted - 2008.01.29 00:55:00 -
[47]
Okay, I must admit that I simply do not understand what the OP wants.
He wants something that is pure industry. No combat, hence no territorial control. That means no lowsec, no 0.0. No risk that another player can remove, by force, his toy from the game or from his grasp.
Most of the people here are suggesting stations that cannot be destroyed and do not need to be fought over. They riskiest suggestion is that you can be barred from your station if somebody constantly outbids you for a piece of real estate. All other end-game content in this game (Outposts, Titans, Motherships) requires the PvPers to collaborate with the Industrialists. Why should the Industrialists not have to collaborate with the PvPers for their end-game content?
And as for making a profit: exactly what kind of profit do you want to see? Give me a % ROI to work with here.
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Miss CJB
Gallente In White Suits
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Posted - 2008.01.29 10:59:00 -
[48]
so its true then, money doesnt by you happeyness?
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Kur'Dekaija
Atomic Heroes Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.29 11:13:00 -
[49]
Dunno if ppl in this thread know about it but their is a thing called ship PVP. It makes you loose ISK so you actually have a reason to grind more ISK. Making ISK just get get ISK if boring in a long run.
I for example only gather enough ISK to replace the ship I could possibly loose, such as HACs, BS, CS, Capitals etc.
So I suggest you start a corp, recruit/hire ppl, then go invade a NPC region or invade a normal region and start the station/profit thing ppl are talking about over their instead of wishing for something CCP made in high sec. Its more fun than watching market all day and making ISK :) believe me, I do bit of all.
Last thoughts: Im just ranting cuz I need ISK for a MS :P
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2008.01.29 12:06:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Kur'Dekaija Dunno if ppl in this thread know about it but their is a thing called ship PVP. It makes you loose ISK so you actually have a reason to grind more ISK. Making ISK just get get ISK if boring in a long run.
I for example only gather enough ISK to replace the ship I could possibly loose, such as HACs, BS, CS, Capitals etc.
So I suggest you start a corp, recruit/hire ppl, then go invade a NPC region or invade a normal region and start the station/profit thing ppl are talking about over their instead of wishing for something CCP made in high sec. Its more fun than watching market all day and making ISK :) believe me, I do bit of all.
Last thoughts: Im just ranting cuz I need ISK for a MS :P
I do PVP. But i dont buy myself poor in ships, because i want isk for trading and that kind of stuff. Also, pvp isnt a silverbullet when it comes to spending isk. I wanna spend isk, to make more isk.
I agree with this whole thread. Give us more goals.
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2008.01.29 17:28:00 -
[51]
The problem comes down to that if you are risk averse, the ability to make isk is very easy such as the case of the high sec mission runner, trader or miner and no amount of isk sinks will realistically stem your profit margins when its so easy for example to make 100's of % in markup selling faction ammo and cashing in on people's laziness.
There are plans afoot which should introduce not just isk sinks for the sake of being isk sinks but being something worth putting isk into such as what ambulation will bring and also what planets will bring. I am sure both of these will be fun and interesting enough for you all to plough your isk into when they come.
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2008.01.29 17:35:00 -
[52]
hrrmmm evil thought - income taxes!
the IRS in New Eden!
I'm not that evil though.....yet
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2008.01.29 17:36:00 -
[53]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis The problem comes down to that if you are risk averse, the ability to make isk is very easy such as the case of the high sec mission runner, trader or miner and no amount of isk sinks will realistically stem your profit margins when its so easy for example to make 100's of % in markup selling faction ammo and cashing in on people's laziness.
There are plans afoot which should introduce not just isk sinks for the sake of being isk sinks but being something worth putting isk into such as what ambulation will bring and also what planets will bring. I am sure both of these will be fun and interesting enough for you all to plough your isk into when they come.
Im happy to hear that you guys have us in mind. But as far as im aware, both plants and ambulation are both plans which eventually will release, if they DO release.
And if they do release, i somehow doubt they will be released inside the next 365 days. Unless you can correct me on that, ill be frankly honest and say for now, we want something else.
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Robacz
Essence Trade Essence Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.01.29 18:04:00 -
[54]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis The problem comes down to that if you are risk averse, the ability to make isk is very easy such as the case of the high sec mission runner, trader or miner and no amount of isk sinks will realistically stem your profit margins when its so easy for example to make 100's of % in markup selling faction ammo and cashing in on people's laziness.
There are plans afoot which should introduce not just isk sinks for the sake of being isk sinks but being something worth putting isk into such as what ambulation will bring and also what planets will bring. I am sure both of these will be fun and interesting enough for you all to plough your isk into when they come.
Interesting times ahead it seems. I am also glad to see that Devs are reading this forum.
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Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.01.29 18:29:00 -
[55]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis The problem comes down to that if you are risk averse, the ability to make isk is very easy such as the case of the high sec mission runner, trader or miner and no amount of isk sinks will realistically stem your profit margins when its so easy for example to make 100's of % in markup selling faction ammo and cashing in on people's laziness.
There are plans afoot which should introduce not just isk sinks for the sake of being isk sinks but being something worth putting isk into such as what ambulation will bring and also what planets will bring. I am sure both of these will be fun and interesting enough for you all to plough your isk into when they come.
I believe you may be referring to "stores and/or shops" that will be accessable through the ambulation mechanic and of course the subsequent lisence/fees/taxes that come with it.
I am looking forward to this.
Consulting, IPO Template, and Stock/Bond definitions.
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Leowen
Industrial Giants
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Posted - 2008.01.29 18:44:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Adrimar Okay, I must admit that I simply do not understand what the OP wants.
He wants something that is pure industry. No combat, hence no territorial control. That means no lowsec, no 0.0. No risk that another player can remove, by force, his toy from the game or from his grasp.
Most of the people here are suggesting stations that cannot be destroyed and do not need to be fought over. They riskiest suggestion is that you can be barred from your station if somebody constantly outbids you for a piece of real estate. All other end-game content in this game (Outposts, Titans, Motherships) requires the PvPers to collaborate with the Industrialists. Why should the Industrialists not have to collaborate with the PvPers for their end-game content?
And as for making a profit: exactly what kind of profit do you want to see? Give me a % ROI to work with here.
You're doing it again. I didn't say that territoriality or combat were out of the question, nor low-sec nor even necessarily 0.0. And I'm not looking for a personal "toy".
I'm not sure what I'm asking for specifically either I freely admit, I just know that from my first day of playing EVE back in 2003 I loved the industrial and commercial aspect, and I have spent all of my game-time since chasing goals. Then I ran out, and I now lots of people that ran out long before I did. I don't know what the answer is, I'm not asking for a magic button, I'm not asking for an isk machine. I'm just asking for some thought to be given to how high-end industrialists can have something to strive for again, whatever it is.
I don't see titan production as being an industrial goal tbh, they are alliance war-machines that alliances themselves will build. I don't see demand for them booming any time soon. Meanwhile we have many trillions (hundreds of trillions? I'd love to know the number...) of ISK in independent industrialists' wallets sitting around doing nothing, dragging the economy into the gutter. We need something to soak up ISK as much as anything else.
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Leowen
Industrial Giants
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Posted - 2008.01.29 18:50:00 -
[57]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis The problem comes down to that if you are risk averse, the ability to make isk is very easy such as the case of the high sec mission runner, trader or miner and no amount of isk sinks will realistically stem your profit margins when its so easy for example to make 100's of % in markup selling faction ammo and cashing in on people's laziness.
There are plans afoot which should introduce not just isk sinks for the sake of being isk sinks but being something worth putting isk into such as what ambulation will bring and also what planets will bring. I am sure both of these will be fun and interesting enough for you all to plough your isk into when they come.
Thanks for joining Chronotis. My fear is that ambulation will eventually present itself as eye-candy, looking great and giving a healthy boost to subs numbers, but not necessarily adding anything with real substance. Am I wrong in this? Can you shed any light?
Also as mentioned above do you have any thoughts you can share on timelines?
There must be something you guys can share with us on what you plan to do to extend and revitalise the economy in 2008. The whole thing is feeling pretty isk-saturated right now to be honest. Perhaps it's time for a Dev Blog on the subject?
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Treelox
Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
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Posted - 2008.01.29 19:06:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Leowen
Originally by: CCP Chronotis The problem comes down to that if you are risk averse, the ability to make isk is very easy such as the case of the high sec mission runner, trader or miner and no amount of isk sinks will realistically stem your profit margins when its so easy for example to make 100's of % in markup selling faction ammo and cashing in on people's laziness.
There are plans afoot which should introduce not just isk sinks for the sake of being isk sinks but being something worth putting isk into such as what ambulation will bring and also what planets will bring. I am sure both of these will be fun and interesting enough for you all to plough your isk into when they come.
Thanks for joining Chronotis. My fear is that ambulation will eventually present itself as eye-candy, looking great and giving a healthy boost to subs numbers, but not necessarily adding anything with real substance. Am I wrong in this? Can you shed any light?
I have to agree with leowen here, there has been nothing mentioned about anything that ambulation will bring to the game, that is not basically eye candy. To date not a single dev post concerning ambulation has led me to believe that I need to particapate in it, honestly for this I am glad, because to me amubulation just seems as a time sink and nothing else. Just an expansion of the time wasting that most people do as they spin their ships around while docked.
I of course understand from a marketing standpoint why CCP needs to add ambulation, I just seriously hope that we arent forced to deal with it. Since in its current state of devolpement it is nothing more than fluff and window dressing. --
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Erah
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Posted - 2008.01.29 19:08:00 -
[59]
what about tech 3 stuff? would be nice to see it coming as tech 2 is pretty common now maybe that's what planets will be for (pure speculation) tech 1: asteroid mining tech 2: moon mining tech 3: "planet mining"?
that would open a whole new industry, and some new way to spend the isk
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2008.01.29 19:22:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Treelox I of course understand from a marketing standpoint why CCP needs to add ambulation, I just seriously hope that we arent forced to deal with it. Since in its current state of devolpement it is nothing more than fluff and window dressing.
My only interest in ambulation is shops and storefronts. Finally being able to do sales to select clientFle with the benefit of some automation. Corporate and Alliance contracts are just way too limited. Woohoo if it pans out. |
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