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GardenerOfEden
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Posted - 2004.03.28 22:13:00 -
[31]
Quote:
Without adding a twist to it, I just can't see how it would fit within the concept of a weighted random choice. Given people with X points and Y points, I have to choose a single point in the range 0..(X+Y) to get the BP.
Hmmm anybody else confused by Papa Smurf's partial disclosure of the lottery algorithm - suppose X has 5 RPs and Y 4 RPs then X holds lottery tickets 1,2,3,4,5 and Y holds lottery tickets 6,7,8,9, so who exactly is holding ticket "0"
EVE is a massive social experiment of human interaction facilitated by computer technology |
Papa Smurf
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Posted - 2004.03.28 22:13:00 -
[32]
Quote: If Mission RP's gain in 'weighted' importance will research chars have the opportunity to influence the type of 'halting' missions they must suffer ie: the ability to limit the likelihood of the expensive find/bring back Graduates or Radioactive materials in favour of haul some provided 'crappy goods' () from there to here ...
nah, I've still got a load of squatters in my hangar to sell into slavery. I'll probably have to increase the frequency of the homeless mission until I get a good price for them. Giving y'all a choice would ruin my market.
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Papa Smurf
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Posted - 2004.03.28 22:19:00 -
[33]
Quote:
Quote:
Without adding a twist to it, I just can't see how it would fit within the concept of a weighted random choice. Given people with X points and Y points, I have to choose a single point in the range 0..(X+Y) to get the BP.
Hmmm anybody else confused by Papa Smurf's partial disclosure of the lottery algorithm - suppose X has 5 RPs and Y 4 RPs then X holds lottery tickets 1,2,3,4,5 and Y holds lottery tickets 6,7,8,9, so who exactly is holding ticket "0"
to clarify, make that [0,X+Y>, X has tickets 0,1,2,3,4 and Y has tickets 5,6,7,8
This isn't intended as an accurate disclosure of the algorithm though.
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GardenerOfEden
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Posted - 2004.03.28 22:29:00 -
[34]
Quote:
to clarify, make that [0,X+Y>, X has tickets 0,1,2,3,4 and Y has tickets 5,6,7,8
This isn't intended as an accurate disclosure of the algorithm though.
Thank-you for your response and the implicit assurance that the algorithm does not contain "fencepost" errors.
EVE is a massive social experiment of human interaction facilitated by computer technology |
Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2004.03.28 22:47:00 -
[35]
Quote:
Quote:
One thing I have wondered at though papa which may be of use (it may not): ATM the additional research points gained through doing the R&D Agent missions all go into the "pool" from which the winning ticket is drawn.
What would be the consequences of NOT putting the mission-gained RPs into the pool total (ie the pool total is ONLY the standard gained RPs)?
Without adding a twist to it, I just can't see how it would fit within the concept of a weighted random choice. Given people with X points and Y points, I have to choose a single point in the range 0..(X+Y) to get the BP. No room for bringing in extra points after the fact since the BP's gone.
I'd suspect however what you have in mind could be modelled by adding a twist like f.ex. 25% of all BPs are dished out only based on mission RPs. Thus effectively, there are two lotteries running simultaneously.
Yeah that was pretty much how I was thinking but you're right, it's not as good as your option 1) in anycase.
Quote: 1. We are considered strongly having the lottery also drop "field breakthroughs" in larger quantities than actual BPs. We can then make specifically targetted BPs like f.ex. "100 General Amarrian Starship Engineering Breakthroughs + 1 Amarrian Frigate Breakthrough + 20 Breakthroughs in Mechanical Engineering + 20 Science Graduates + 1000 units of Quafe => SampleAmarrianFrigate Blueprint II" which could be distributed via various means without losing too much control over tech II. (Like it or not, we have to have some degree of control over it.)
This would have some interesting dynamics. Players have a much greater control over what BP they transform their research into, while we can still control the number of BPs in play to some extent. This also provides some form of "transferrability" as you could undoubtedly sell the breakthrough papers to people with specific goals in mind.
In that option 1 (which i kind of like) would the "SAF Blueprint I" go then to a "Mini lottery" between those who have "qualified" for it?
Because that works for me... although it would be "better" if part of the qualification for that BP Lottery was a required *something* in the agent missions itself (Rather than something that can still be done by ignoring the agent and just purchasing the *things* you need and acruing the RPs AFK).
If the system is such that a lone individual can attain ALL the qualifying items/points through dedication to his agent(s) and hard work *at no cost* , then, yeah I really like that.
Because that also then enables the loner to sell off their acrued items to the big ISK-fat corps or individuals. The fat cats cans till buy their way into the "Mini lottery" but its still a gamble and it *should* cost them LOTS... the freelancer can just grind away at it and, even if they fail, can always sell ont heir loosing *items* for at elast some gain.
Yeah I like that concept and it does have a lot of dynamics around it.
Its targetted researching. Its achieveable at no cost but hard work. It has a "no-win" payout (sell off your bits or wait to try again) It still has an element of risk/chance there is still a lottery between those who qualified. It keeps BP distribution control in CCPs hands.
(It could also be made far more immersive by enabling bespoke researching to have a slight advantage i.e. Caldari Starship R&D is marginally easier/faster with a Caldari R&D corp than, say, an Amarri one.. or at least the "breakthroughs" are more common with the relevant corp/faction... {or that could be considered adding later?})
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Rinji
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Posted - 2004.03.29 00:39:00 -
[36]
Quote:
1. We are considered strongly having the lottery also drop "field breakthroughs" in larger quantities than actual BPs. We can then make specifically targetted BPs like f.ex. "100 General Amarrian Starship Engineering Breakthroughs + 1 Amarrian Frigate Breakthrough + 20 Breakthroughs in Mechanical Engineering + 20 Science Graduates + 1000 units of Quafe => SampleAmarrianFrigate Blueprint II" which could be distributed via various means without losing too much control over tech II. (Like it or not, we have to have some degree of control over it.)
This would have some interesting dynamics. Players have a much greater control over what BP they transform their research into, while we can still control the number of BPs in play to some extent. This also provides some form of "transferrability" as you could undoubtedly sell the breakthrough papers to people with specific goals in mind.
This is very interesting. One possible downside is there may be tech II items that would never come to exist. This would be fine- there are lots of worthless tech 2 items out there- but for changes in game mechanics. For example, I doubt many micro sheild extender IIs would be made if people had control over them. If down the road micro sheild extenders become very useful we will all be disapointed not to have any tech 2 of them.
Vice Admiral Rinji Morisato Logistics Division Commanding Officer of Logistics Division |
Rinji
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Posted - 2004.03.29 00:42:00 -
[37]
Quote:
(It could also be made far more immersive by enabling bespoke researching to have a slight advantage i.e. Caldari Starship R&D is marginally easier/faster with a Caldari R&D corp than, say, an Amarri one.. or at least the "breakthroughs" are more common with the relevant corp/faction... {or that could be considered adding later?})
I assume you could only get Caldari Starship breakthrouhgs when researching Caldari SE, and only Caldari Corps offer that topic I think, so how could an Amarr corp get a Caldari breakthough in the first palce?
Vice Admiral Rinji Morisato Logistics Division Commanding Officer of Logistics Division |
Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2004.03.29 00:54:00 -
[38]
Quote:
Quote:
(It could also be made far more immersive by enabling bespoke researching to have a slight advantage i.e. Caldari Starship R&D is marginally easier/faster with a Caldari R&D corp than, say, an Amarri one.. or at least the "breakthroughs" are more common with the relevant corp/faction... {or that could be considered adding later?})
I assume you could only get Caldari Starship breakthrouhgs when researching Caldari SE, and only Caldari Corps offer that topic I think, so how could an Amarr corp get a Caldari breakthough in the first palce?
By offering Caldari Starship...
(Who says they have to stick to the current agents skills conditions?)
Or - via the secondary skills (eg Mechanical Engineering, albeit at some *disadvantage* to the rate/possibility of success via the main skill?)
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Novo DuPont
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Posted - 2004.03.29 05:47:00 -
[39]
PAPA SMURF:
So are you saying that the statement by other DEV's stating target dates for deployable orbital objects and Tech III release In May to be FALSE???
May is just over 2 months away so I AM hoping you did not relize that May is that close. Otherwise there is either a failure of communication between DEV's or you just comfirmed yet MORE delays in game development.
On top of all this YES it will take MANY months for Tech II to be common tech used in ALL catigories, not just small and med devices. All the Tech II items I have seen on market and in trade only comprise of about 12% of the total different types on devices in the game atm.
I am hoping by your statement you are not saying that CCP's policy is drag out deployment of new Tech and items until everyone in EVE can buy every Tech II version of all items in game atm.
Need ALOT of clarification on your statements.
"To succeed greatly one must sacrifice greatly"
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Nilradical
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Posted - 2004.03.29 05:59:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Nilradical on 29/03/2004 06:01:14
Quote:
So are you saying that the statement by other DEV's stating target dates for deployable orbital objects and Tech III release In May to be FALSE???
Although Shiva which includes POS has been slated for May, I don't think they have every stated or implied that tech 3 is part of Shiva.
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Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.03.29 09:39:00 -
[41]
Quote:
PAPA SMURF:
So are you saying that the statement by other DEV's stating target dates for deployable orbital objects and Tech III release In May to be FALSE???
May is just over 2 months away so I AM hoping you did not relize that May is that close. Otherwise there is either a failure of communication between DEV's or you just comfirmed yet MORE delays in game development.
On top of all this YES it will take MANY months for Tech II to be common tech used in ALL catigories, not just small and med devices. All the Tech II items I have seen on market and in trade only comprise of about 12% of the total different types on devices in the game atm.
I am hoping by your statement you are not saying that CCP's policy is drag out deployment of new Tech and items until everyone in EVE can buy every Tech II version of all items in game atm.
Need ALOT of clarification on your statements.
1) There are no tech2 ships, I repeat ships do not have tech lvls like modules do. 2) Shiva != tech 3 ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Rancid Mare
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Posted - 2004.03.29 09:55:00 -
[42]
Quote: 1) There are no tech2 ships, I repeat ships do not have tech lvls like modules do. 2) Shiva != tech 3
are the new frigates not tech 2 ? as far as the community are concered they are the next lvl of ships and tech 2 in all but name.
Shiva is not tech 3. they cant being out tech 3 in may as tech 2 hasnt even taken off yet.
Rancid Mare of the EveMarshals. Our Webby
Recruitement Videos here |
capt
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Posted - 2004.03.29 10:07:00 -
[43]
Papa Smurf, couldn't you just simplify the whole lottery rp system.
For example everything from 0-2500 rps(or 5000 whatever) equals 1 lottery ticket. Everything from 2500-5000 rps(or 5000-10000) equals 2 lottery tickets. ect ....
This simplifies the whole rp/lottery tickets thing a lot and people would know where the stand. For example I have 28000 rps, thus this would mean I have 12 tickets. Or 6 tickets if we use the 0-5000 equals 1 ticket aproach.
This is just a suggestion of course and very simple, it could be made a lot more difficult/fairer? by addin a bit more conditions......
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Nilradical
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Posted - 2004.03.29 10:22:00 -
[44]
Quote: Papa Smurf, couldn't you just simplify the whole lottery rp system.
For example everything from 0-2500 rps(or 5000 whatever) equals 1 lottery ticket. Everything from 2500-5000 rps(or 5000-10000) equals 2 lottery tickets. ect ....
This simplifies the whole rp/lottery tickets thing a lot and people would know where the stand. For example I have 28000 rps, thus this would mean I have 12 tickets. Or 6 tickets if we use the 0-5000 equals 1 ticket aproach.
I fail to see how having x RP per lottery ticket is any simpler than the current system of 1 RP, 1 lottery ticket. I also don't see how this gives people any more information about their odds.
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Thomas Covenant
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Posted - 2004.03.29 10:30:00 -
[45]
It would make nothing simpler ofc except increase the chances of ppl with 28,000 RPS...
2004.08.06 09:21:49combatYour 1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I perfectly strikes Guardian Elder, wrecking for 1443.0 damage. |
Novo DuPont
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Posted - 2004.03.29 12:21:00 -
[46]
Gariuys:
When you become a DEV then you can say with absolute authority.
Look at ships and BP's for ships, notice the "tech lvl" line with a 1 (one) in it. If there is no tech lvls for ships then what is that for??? DEV's HAVE stated there there WOULD be not only new specialized ship types but there would be "upgrade" BP's for upgrading ships and items from tech I to II etc.
"To succeed greatly one must sacrifice greatly"
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Cirle
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Posted - 2004.03.29 13:27:00 -
[47]
Quote: Because that works for me... although it would be "better" if part of the qualification for that BP Lottery was a required *something* in the agent missions itself (Rather than something that can still be done by ignoring the agent and just purchasing the *things* you need and acruing the RPs AFK).
This indeed is one of the major problems with the existing system, discussion about the actual distribution of the blueprints aside, because for a cost of approximately nothing (beyond the initial skills, which are relatively hefty) you get approximately 40% of the advantage of the dedicated research/mission runner that performs a mission every day, and as it stands it feels like the number of non-active RP generators far outweigh the active.
So, while Option 1 from the above sounds like a very good way of altering the system, it would potentially also need to address the above, and actually as a short term fix have you considered turning on the 'your RP have been halted until you do a mission' feature? That way, the only people accumulating are those that actually do the missions, and you should see the pool start to drop off (I know the skill costs should have stopped casual players, but they are not actually high enough to stop a five month + player just picking up the skills because they have no actual direction in their character development :)).
Cirle |
Rinji
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Posted - 2004.03.29 14:27:00 -
[48]
Quote:
PAPA SMURF:
So are you saying that the statement by other DEV's stating target dates for deployable orbital objects and Tech III release In May to be FALSE???
It has never been said anywhere that Shiva was tech III, not even hinted. Some silly people have been assuming it for quite some time though.
Vice Admiral Rinji Morisato Logistics Division Commanding Officer of Logistics Division |
Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2004.03.29 14:56:00 -
[49]
Can we PLEASE keep this ON TOPIC about the lottery and forget about what ships come out when?
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Harisdrop
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Posted - 2004.03.29 15:15:00 -
[50]
I think this thread Morkt has been mostly on target. I think Papa has come on and answered and given ample options. I would like the info on my research and what to expect and any choices.
As the game, Tech II items have not become any major staple. There is an underlying economics problem. So tech II will never break out until that is resolved.
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Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies |
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Ooke
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Posted - 2004.03.29 19:45:00 -
[51]
there should be a second subset of research...
say a guaranteed way of getting a bp...
just that it would take a long freeking time.
right now me and pe are useless, 0.1% and 5 seconds are a joke.
make it so that if you have me 100 and pe 100 on a bp you can start researching tech 2 variants or something.
at that point you can plug in enough RP from your research agent (1000 for small charges up to 1000000 for battleships) and you can put them back in and continue to research, between 100 and 200 me and pe there should be a 50% chance of it turning into a tech 2 item, at 200-300 75%, 300-400 87.5% and at 500 me and pe you get the bp outright (based on each, the lowest should be counted, so if you had 500 me and 100 pe there's still a low chance of getting the TL2 bp...
for small things like ammo that's a month or two, for big things like ships thats potentially more than 3 years. (1 day 2 hours per level x 1000 for both = 1083 days for a guaranteed tech 2 ship bp)
that would make people happy, they could then play both systems if they choose and those people with collosal bad luck have a way out, but what do I know, I just play the game
Ooke: May Contain Nuts |
Eldariel
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Posted - 2004.03.29 20:45:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Eldariel on 29/03/2004 20:57:03
Well, as I'm sure quite a few are aware I've not been enthralled with the lottery concept ever since it was proposed , but still ...
I like the sound of ...
Quote: 1. We are considered strongly having the lottery also drop "field breakthroughs" in larger quantities than actual BPs. We can then make specifically targetted BPs like f.ex. "100 General Amarrian Starship Engineering Breakthroughs + 1 Amarrian Frigate Breakthrough + 20 Breakthroughs in Mechanical Engineering + 20 Science Graduates + 1000 units of Quafe => SampleAmarrianFrigate Blueprint II" which could be distributed via various means without losing too much control over tech II. (Like it or not, we have to have some degree of control over it.)
This would have some interesting dynamics. Players have a much greater control over what BP they transform their research into, while we can still control the number of BPs in play to some extent. This also provides some form of "transferrability" as you could undoubtedly sell the breakthrough papers to people with specific goals in mind.
... at least a researcher would then have a tangible sense of achievement for running R&D missions, irrespective of whether they get a BP Quote:
3. Another possibility to balance out this part would be to have the points-per-day you gain with that agent increase per successful research mission until you get a BP offer. I'd prefer going with the standings first though, and adding something like this later if appropriate.
RP * No. R&D agent missions completed with agent to date ?
(RP & completion tally to be reset upon acceptance of BP) Quote:
4. I could add to the agent info window a list of "plausible BPs" based on the BPs currently in the lottery and the agent's skills. For each BP type, I could list the number of BPs currently forseen and the total RPs contending for those BPs. This would have an infowindow link to the BPs properties, where you can among other see what skills (research fields) are required to get that BP.
More info would definitely be useful. If it's not BP sepecific, even a "You have 'x'% chance of winning the next lottery in research field y" in the agent show info dialogue would be better than nothing
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Papa Smurf
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Posted - 2004.03.29 21:15:00 -
[53]
Quote:
So are you saying that the statement by other DEV's stating target dates for deployable orbital objects and Tech III release In May to be FALSE???
As many have already pointed out, Shiva does not imply Tech III.
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Novo DuPont
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Posted - 2004.03.29 21:50:00 -
[54]
Hmmm well then that means its gonna be another 2 YEARS before we see Tech lvl 5 at this rate???
Anyways there is still the unanswered question as to players researching Ship Tech. Will there be ANY Tech II ship BP's handed out or are we wasting our time??
"To succeed greatly one must sacrifice greatly"
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Doc Brown
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Posted - 2004.03.29 21:58:00 -
[55]
Quote: Hmmm well then that means its gonna be another 2 YEARS before we see Tech lvl 5 at this rate???
Anyways there is still the unanswered question as to players researching Ship Tech. Will there be ANY Tech II ship BP's handed out or are we wasting our time??
Are you suprised that it'll be years till Tech level 5? I'm not. CCP has said that they have been planning for Eve to live 5+ years. _________________________________________________
There are no bad ideas, only bad implementations. |
Papa Smurf
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Posted - 2004.03.30 09:54:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Papa Smurf on 30/03/2004 10:00:22
Quote: Hmmm well then that means its gonna be another 2 YEARS before we see Tech lvl 5 at this rate???
Anyways there is still the unanswered question as to players researching Ship Tech. Will there be ANY Tech II ship BP's handed out or are we wasting our time??
There already have been. The interceptors are Tech II.
And chill it with the outraged/accusatory writing style in all your postings if you want answers to your questions, at least from me. I'm quite willing to answer any reasonable questions I have time to, but I will not be participating in this style of aggressive discussion.
Just checked btw. Seems to me that the moderation tools are just two clicks away.
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Psy Corp
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Posted - 2004.03.30 10:13:00 -
[57]
Quote:
As I can understand CCP wanting to control Tech II as not to flood the market here is one KEY point to remember:
TECH III RELEASE IS SLATED TO BE IN ABOUT 2 MONTHS AND TECH II BEEN OUT FOR 3 MONTHS NOW!!!!
So even if a BUNCH of Tech II was given out Tech III would already be in game before Tech II is being used commonly.
AT LEAST give us some Tech II frigates or indies!!!
your thinking that shiva will bring tech 3 modules NO.. only POS why people say that tech 3 is comming in shiva is beyond me.. there simply refering to POS as tech 3..
I Have The Power Of The Mighty Lo.0lipop..
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Psy Corp
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Posted - 2004.03.30 10:24:00 -
[58]
Quote: Edited by: Papa Smurf on 30/03/2004 10:00:22
Quote: Hmmm well then that means its gonna be another 2 YEARS before we see Tech lvl 5 at this rate???
Anyways there is still the unanswered question as to players researching Ship Tech. Will there be ANY Tech II ship BP's handed out or are we wasting our time??
There already have been. The interceptors are Tech II.
And chill it with the outraged/accusatory writing style in all your postings if you want answers to your questions, at least from me. I'm quite willing to answer any reasonable questions I have time to, but I will not be participating in this style of aggressive discussion.
Just checked btw. Seems to me that the moderation tools are just two clicks away.
papa just make him banned or something hes just miss informd little puppet by other players..
hes not here to discuss hes just here to rant so hes not needed
I Have The Power Of The Mighty Lo.0lipop..
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Psy Corp
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Posted - 2004.03.30 10:30:00 -
[59]
and anyway.. how about making it so the if for example the top rp guy has 30k points then to be in the lottery you need 10% of his points to actually get into it.. that would stop everyone from getting it.. and i dont think everyone should beable to get it.. you need some divotion to be in the lottery
and i dont think that would stop new divoted researchers from getting to the you can be in the lottery lv to long
but i dont know
I Have The Power Of The Mighty Lo.0lipop..
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2004.03.30 11:27:00 -
[60]
Quote: and anyway.. how about making it so the if for example the top rp guy has 30k points then to be in the lottery you need 10% of his points to actually get into it.. that would stop everyone from getting it.. and i dont think everyone should beable to get it.. you need some divotion to be in the lottery
and i dont think that would stop new divoted researchers from getting to the you can be in the lottery lv to long
but i dont know
It would stop a lot of folks having any chance. Especially if the top guy is dedicated to doing R&D bonus missions but unlucky in the draws.
I think papa's ideas 1 and 2 remain the best too-date.
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