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Pattern Clarc
Quam Singulari The Church.
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Posted - 2008.02.04 14:34:00 -
[1]
Tempest (and fleet pest) needs looking at.
It's nicheless, out 1v1 by the Hyperion, out sniped by everything, out ganked by the phoon. It's only used by pilots unable to let go of the nostalgia of massive wrecking hits - or ones too cheap to use the maelstrom.
With the up coming tracking disruptor changes, one of the tempests biggest arsenals (it's speed + fall off) in it's primary rolls is seriously under threat.
If I where to fix the tempest?
I'd give it 7 turrets, and remove the damage bonus for a 10% fall off bonus, keeping the 2 launcher slots with an appropriate grid increase.
I'd also introduce falloff scripts for tracking computers.
It follows on neatly to the Vargur bonuses and provides a ship and a fighting style different to anything existing currently.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.02.04 14:37:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Pattern Clarc
I'd also introduce falloff scripts for tracking computers.
Overpowered. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation |
Zeoliter
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.02.04 14:46:00 -
[3]
Are you insane? It's range might not be great but it's still the hardest hitting tier 2 BS in the game. Out-gunned by a blaster-boat? Whut?
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Pattern Clarc
Quam Singulari The Church.
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Posted - 2008.02.04 15:06:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 04/02/2008 15:07:16
Originally by: Zeoliter Are you insane? It's range might not be great but it's still the hardest hitting tier 2 BS in the game. Out-gunned by a blaster-boat? Whut?
It's outganked by the phoon, out tanked by the phoon and the maelstrom and slower than the hyperion w/o rigs i'm afraid to say...
I think you belong in the nostalgic tempest pilot category.
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sdthujfg
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Posted - 2008.02.04 15:20:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Pattern Clarc Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 04/02/2008 15:07:16
Originally by: Zeoliter Are you insane? It's range might not be great but it's still the hardest hitting tier 2 BS in the game. Out-gunned by a blaster-boat? Whut?
It's outganked by the phoon, out tanked by the phoon and the maelstrom and slower than the hyperion w/o rigs i'm afraid to say...
I think you belong in the nostalgic tempest pilot category.
Tempest is fine.
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Pattern Clarc
Quam Singulari The Church.
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Posted - 2008.02.04 15:40:00 -
[6]
Originally by: sdthujfg
Originally by: Pattern Clarc Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 04/02/2008 15:07:16
Originally by: Zeoliter Are you insane? It's range might not be great but it's still the hardest hitting tier 2 BS in the game. Out-gunned by a blaster-boat? Whut?
It's outganked by the phoon, out tanked by the phoon and the maelstrom and slower than the hyperion w/o rigs i'm afraid to say...
I think you belong in the nostalgic tempest pilot category.
Tempest is fine.
Please elaborate.
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Pattern Clarc
Quam Singulari The Church.
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Posted - 2008.02.04 16:21:00 -
[7]
Originally by: sdthujfg
Originally by: Pattern Clarc Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 04/02/2008 15:07:16
Originally by: Zeoliter Are you insane? It's range might not be great but it's still the hardest hitting tier 2 BS in the game. Out-gunned by a blaster-boat? Whut?
It's outganked by the phoon, out tanked by the phoon and the maelstrom and slower than the hyperion w/o rigs i'm afraid to say...
I think you belong in the nostalgic tempest pilot category.
Tempest is fine.
You say it's fine, heres some reasons why it's not.
Quote: It has fallen victim to many nerfs over time:
- HP buff - ECM nerf - nos nerf - rigs being added to the game hurt it badly in many ways, including its "versatility" - other, smaller effects - it has low HP, low DPS for a ship with two DPS bonuses
It can snipe, but it isn't really the best at it. It can do remote rep gangs too but its DPS is mediocre compared to what other similar-fit ships can do.
No matter what it does, it can't beat a well-flown/fitted megathron without using EW due to the mechanics of null + disruptor range, it can't compete with pulse battleships in gangs, and probably can't beat those 1v1 either because they all have better tanks and more damage. The raven too completely outclasses the Tempest and even out-EW's it. Pretty much every tier 3 battleship smacks the tempest away with ease.
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Katashi Ishizuka
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Posted - 2008.02.04 17:24:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Katashi I****uka on 04/02/2008 17:26:00 Uh... what on earth are you smoking. I'm just going to investigate plated gank battleship setups here, other stuff; I am aware there are many battleship setups.
[Tempest, [PVP] Plated Close-Range DPS] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II
100MN MicroWarpdrive II Stasis Webifier II Warp Disruptor II Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800 Sensor Booster II, Targeting Speed
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo
Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I
Ogre II x2 Hammerhead II x2 Hobgoblin II x1
This has 102k EHP, 1024 dps, more range, has the option of using Barrage, and you get use explosive damage which is great against armor tankers. Plus, you get to fit a sensor booster. There's room for a flight of Warrior IIs in your drone bay and if you like you can fit a neut in one of the highs due to AC low fitting reqs, so you pretty much swat away light tacklers and such.
VS.
[Megathron, [PVP] T2 Max Gank] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Adaptive Nano Plating II Damage Control II
100MN MicroWarpdrive II Stasis Webifier II Warp Disruptor II Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L [empty high slot]
Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I
Ogre II x5
100k EHP (less than tempest) 1252 DPS (about 20% more), drone bay has no replacements, goes about 150m/s slower than the tempest, doesn't have a SB, and Null really has got nothing on Barrage for when you are webbed but have to reach out and touch someone.
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Kery Syander
The Illuminati. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.02.04 17:40:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Kery Syander on 04/02/2008 17:44:17 Tempest is a pretty medicore ship now at best. The TD boost is really just the final straw on it's back. I definitely agree it lackes a niche.
Edit: Saying null has nothing on barrage is rediculous. A Mega with null will outdamage a Pest at 20km. I would trade 20% DPS difference for 2k effective HP. -----
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Pattern Clarc
Quam Singulari The Church.
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Posted - 2008.02.04 17:54:00 -
[10]
Wow, you've got to like the min/max EFT theory craft.
With overloading, any notion that the tempest could just stay at fall off range and chip away at the megathron without the megathron either warping away or webbing the tempest is ludacris. I'm a gallente spec pilot myself, general latency is enough to screw up the balance which once presided over this sacred comparison.
Nonetheless in the above, the tempest has an amazing 2% more EHP, 1000 dps which turns more into 900 dps against anything smaller than a Moon + a sensor booster vs the thron's 20% more damage, increased tracking and drone bay. The explosive damage type is great, until the 2x EANM/Exposive hardener combo is used (standard fit on most galente ships FYI), then it's all down hill.
The neut might be useful against a cruiser but the cap damage done to a plated, cap injected setup is minimal.
Why wouldn't I just use a phoon in this instance which at least does around the damage damage of a gank thron?
The standard comparison aside, the tempest and minmatar BS line up now doesn't' measure well against any of the other races. The caldari who have now an amazing versatility in there battleship line up will just never have this problem. If the apoc changes go through, the tempest as a sniper, will be so far in the dirt it wouldn't even be worth using it. The token EW mod has become a relic of past times with the fall off bonus of the pest under threat by the new TD's.
When confronted with the alternative, when is the Tempest actually the highest performer?
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Gavin Darklighter
THE FINAL STAND
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Posted - 2008.02.04 18:15:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Gavin Darklighter on 04/02/2008 18:19:57 Tempest needs a 7th low IMO. Give the 'phoon the 8/5/6 slot layout instead. The Mach would stay 8/5/7, and the fleet Tempest would get 8/4/8 (like the Navy Mega).
Also, if tracking disruptors disrupt falloff, tracking computers should boost falloff.
With Pulse Apocs getting nearly 90km optimal when fit with tracking comps, I see no reason why fitting a few falloff-boosting tracking comps to an AC boat would be overpowered.
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.02.04 19:42:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Katashi I****uka Edited by: Katashi I****uka on 04/02/2008 17:26:00 Uh... what on earth are you smoking. I'm just going to investigate plated gank battleship setups here, other stuff; I am aware there are many battleship setups.
[Tempest, [PVP] Plated Close-Range DPS] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II
100MN MicroWarpdrive II Stasis Webifier II Warp Disruptor II Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800 Sensor Booster II, Targeting Speed
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo
Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I
Ogre II x2 Hammerhead II x2 Hobgoblin II x1
This has 102k EHP, 1024 dps, more range, has the option of using Barrage, and you get use explosive damage which is great against armor tankers. Plus, you get to fit a sensor booster. There's room for a flight of Warrior IIs in your drone bay and if you like you can fit a neut in one of the highs due to AC low fitting reqs, so you pretty much swat away light tacklers and such.
VS.
[Megathron, [PVP] T2 Max Gank] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Adaptive Nano Plating II Damage Control II
100MN MicroWarpdrive II Stasis Webifier II Warp Disruptor II Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L [empty high slot]
Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I
Ogre II x5
100k EHP (less than tempest) 1252 DPS (about 20% more), drone bay has no replacements, goes about 150m/s slower than the tempest, doesn't have a SB, and Null really has got nothing on Barrage for when you are webbed but have to reach out and touch someone.
You notice that typhoon can field a 7 slot tank and reach 940 dps ? Pr using a 4 slot tank like that tempest reach 1250 dps? all taht stil being cheaper.
YEs tempest is now probably the worse battleship. But not as bad as to be crap. The fleet tempest on other had is completely crap... an extra mid slot while the ship simply don 't have CPU to use it.
------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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Katashi Ishizuka
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Posted - 2008.02.04 20:14:00 -
[13]
Tempest is pretty much outclassed at close-range gank and sniping, I agree. And with lag the way it is, MegaT can catch a 'Pest.
However, Pest can fit a neut unlike Neutron thron, and has a 5th mid for EWAR if you so choose. This will lead itself to a T-Disruptor after the falloff boost. MegaT can't sacrifice a cap booster to counter-TD, the Tempest can then kite it in falloff, which is then definitely below 24km.
As well as, Barrage outranging Null IS a great help in 30km gang fights - MegaT loses effective DPS since it has to MWD around. On top of that, there are actually not that many ships that had the slots and the tank to make fitting 2xEANM+EX HARD + DC worthwhile over damage mdos.
ON TOP OF THAT armor is getting 10% off EM resists and shield 10% off, just made your most damaging faction ammo even better.
+, The tempest is cheaper after insurance than a Maelstrom, and to imply that it is outclassed by such a large margin as to make the Tempest a worthless battleship is ridiculous, in my opinion.
Pattern Clarc is overdramatizing the weaknesses of the 'Pest to make his case stronger. He's saying the Tempest is **** when in reality it's kind of like... i dunno, half-flat beer.
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prathe
Minmatar Omega Enterprises Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2008.02.04 20:35:00 -
[14]
i dunno the tempest seems to be okay i have never had problems with the sniper version
i think that maybe most of the problems that users suffer with are rather related to tactics and fittings rather than the base hull . fancy mathematics , dream scenarios and eft quoting aside . the tempest is a decent close range bs not amazing but not crap . long range it really shines optimal 145-150k falloff still gets some fairly sdecent hit rates at 180+ . it's a shock and awe weapon tbh
try 6x1400 t2 1 named large neut 3 sensor bootsters 2 tracking computers 3 gyros 2 tracking enhancers and a reator control
like all minmatar ships it requires quick actions and a tact-ful approach to combat the payoff is in the inherent skills of the pilots not the hull ( same with all ship really )
am i a nostalgic big dammage lover oh yes but should a ship be changed into a giant half - assed vagabond to suit the needs a a few pilots NO
when you have large arty spec 5 and bs 5 and push a 18x dmg mod youll understand the tempy and what it's for .
love prathey signature removed - please email us to find out why (include a link to the image URL) - Jacques([email protected])
why dont you just tell me ? |
Pattern Clarc
Quam Singulari The Church.
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Posted - 2008.02.04 21:52:00 -
[15]
Originally by: prathe i dunno the tempest seems to be okay i have never had problems with the sniper version
i think that maybe most of the problems that users suffer with are rather related to tactics and fittings rather than the base hull . fancy mathematics , dream scenarios and eft quoting aside . the tempest is a decent close range bs not amazing but not crap . long range it really shines optimal 145-150k falloff still gets some fairly sdecent hit rates at 180+ . it's a shock and awe weapon tbh
The Abaddon and Maelstrom now out alpha the tempest, as well as doing more damage over time.
The energy neutraliser is nice, however to fit it, you lose the use of a very valuble low slot (Damage control unit)
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Angelic Eviaran
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Posted - 2008.02.04 22:00:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Gavin Darklighter Edited by: Gavin Darklighter on 04/02/2008 18:19:57 Tempest needs a 7th low IMO. Give the 'phoon the 8/5/6 slot layout instead. The Mach would stay 8/5/7, and the fleet Tempest would get 8/4/8 (like the Navy Mega).
Also, if tracking disruptors disrupt falloff, tracking computers should boost falloff.
With Pulse Apocs getting nearly 90km optimal when fit with tracking comps, I see no reason why fitting a few falloff-boosting tracking comps to an AC boat would be overpowered.
Its a good thing youre not balancing eve because that would be a nightmare.
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Kery Syander
The Illuminati. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.02.04 22:50:00 -
[17]
Originally by: prathe i dunno the tempest seems to be okay i have never had problems with the sniper version
i think that maybe most of the problems that users suffer with are rather related to tactics and fittings rather than the base hull . fancy mathematics , dream scenarios and eft quoting aside . the tempest is a decent close range bs not amazing but not crap . long range it really shines optimal 145-150k falloff still gets some fairly sdecent hit rates at 180+ . it's a shock and awe weapon tbh
try 6x1400 t2 1 named large neut 3 sensor bootsters 2 tracking computers 3 gyros 2 tracking enhancers and a reator control
like all minmatar ships it requires quick actions and a tact-ful approach to combat the payoff is in the inherent skills of the pilots not the hull ( same with all ship really )
am i a nostalgic big dammage lover oh yes but should a ship be changed into a giant half - assed vagabond to suit the needs a a few pilots NO
when you have large arty spec 5 and bs 5 and push a 18x dmg mod youll understand the tempy and what it's for .
love prathey
That's a good idea. We should throw all EFT theory, mathematics, and 'numbers' in general out the window now. Graphs? Useless. Balance should involve how ships look, too and we all know minmatar ships look really cool. The tempest just feels ok to me, which means it must be a great ship, and I must be a great pilot.
As a sniper with the Apoc changes currently SISI, the tempest is a pretty poor sniper. Right now the tempest has no role it accels in, and is almost always outclassed by amarr ships (meaning they have better tanks and damage) at long range, gallente ships at short range, and caldari ships at all ranges. -----
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Domania
Convergent Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2008.02.04 22:56:00 -
[18]
Quote: I'd give it 7 turrets, and remove the damage bonus for a 10% fall off bonus, keeping the 2 launcher slots with an appropriate grid increase.
Take away either the damage or refire rate bonus and I'll have to unleash a world of pain in game, plus hire tons of alts to whine about the change. ;) The only thing that sounds nice is the fall off script for tracking computers, other then that, leave the tempest alone. I repeat, step away from the tempest, and leave it alone. P.S Leave my favorite ship alone!
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.02.04 22:59:00 -
[19]
Random Idea... change both bonuses to 5% damage per level ( I know drops dps) but gives an extra turret :P
Alpha king again :)
I know I know.. but a man can dream.
------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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Dianeces
Minmatar Repo Industries
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Posted - 2008.02.05 00:58:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Pattern Clarc
I'd also introduce falloff scripts for tracking computers.
Overpowered.
Much like scripts that modify falloff for tracking disruptors.
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Rogerano
Minmatar Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.02.05 00:59:00 -
[21]
Tempest is a bit "el oh el" now.
It needs re-evaluation because EVE has changed considerably since the design was first introduced. Personally I would not fly a tempest over a phoon in any situation except sniping, but wait, the maelstrom was _designed_ as a fleet sniper... Well, be that as it may, the maelstrom out-performs the tempest both at sniping and close range fits. With rigs you can get a lovely 50km falloff (ACs) on the mael and the shield tank is nice too because it works well and allows for max gank.
Where does the tempest fit in here? Versatility right? If you say so... But I regard versatility as a nice-sounding euphemism for "irrelevant in the face of other ship choices". Personally I would prefer to see the tempest shed the versatility fetters and get a defined role. --- Not happy with something in EVE? An emo whine will doubtless help your cause. |
Joudas
Caldari Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.02.05 01:17:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Pattern Clarc
I'd also introduce falloff scripts for tracking computers.
Overpowered.
instead of being so quick witted with your one liners, why don't you read it , stop , and think about how im sure your husband would like it ,if you just went ahead and stopped wearing that toupe , and just admitted to the world your a 35yr old balding male would cant get enough enrique in his life...
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Jurgen Cartis
Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration
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Posted - 2008.02.05 04:44:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Joudas
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Pattern Clarc
I'd also introduce falloff scripts for tracking computers.
Overpowered.
instead of being so quick witted with your one liners, why don't you read it , stop , and think about how im sure your husband would like it ,if you just went ahead and stopped wearing that toupe , and just admitted to the world your a 35yr old balding male would cant get enough enrique in his life...
5/10 for Ad Hominem. Neither you nor Lyria has made any real arguments yet. Please enlighten us about why falloff scripts for TCs would or would not be overpowered. -------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales FIRST!! -Yipsilanti Pfft. Never such a thing as a "last chance". ;) -Rauth |
Chavu
Ganja Labs Pure.
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Posted - 2008.02.05 10:53:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Jurgen Cartis Please enlighten us about why falloff scripts for TCs would or would not be overpowered.
I'll give this one a shot (haven't thought about it much): These numbers are completely fictional:
Say artillery with 0% range has an optimal range of 100km. Plug in the optimal script and it can either hit at 110km or switch ammo and hit with more damage at 100km. Say autocannons with 0% range ammo has 100km falloff. Plug in the falloff script and it can hit at 110km and hit with more damage (since it has better accuracy) at 100km.
Difference is that the autocannon with falloff script gets more damage and range without having to switch ammo. I will argue that most pilots either use the highest damage ammo or the range ammo and only switch out ammo for the rare enemy who has a resistance hole or to switch from long range to short range ammo so the falloff script in practice doesn't offer anymore than the optimal script.
I'm not sure a falloff script would be used much since only autocannons really benefit from a falloff script and minmatar ships are pretty tight on their medium slots. I would have a hard time dropping a LSE II for +15% falloff on my Vaga. Tempest or Maelstrom might throw in a TC II or two with a falloff script but I can't think of many ships that would use such a script.
I don't believe a falloff script would be overpowered but very open to any ideas and arguments where it would be overpowered.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.02.05 11:09:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Joudas
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Pattern Clarc
I'd also introduce falloff scripts for tracking computers.
Overpowered.
instead of being so quick witted with your one liners, why don't you read it , stop , and think about how im sure your husband would like it ,if you just went ahead and stopped wearing that toupe , and just admitted to the world your a 35yr old balding male would cant get enough enrique in his life...
WoW, what has happend to DNA? You guys used to know this game. You really should know why TCs affecting fall off would not be such a great idea. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation |
Dristra
Amarr Shadows of the Dead The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.02.05 11:32:00 -
[26]
Well, 7 turrets would help...
Support the introduction of well thought out Amarr solutions!
I believe rats should avoid you if you have high standing with them. |
Dianeces
Minmatar Repo Industries
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Posted - 2008.02.05 14:32:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Bitter Amarr whine.
Instead of acting like everyone shares your bitter delusions, why don't you enlighten us with your "wisdom"? I mean, surely if its as overpowered as you seem to think, it should be blatantly obvious, right?
Of course, you really don't care about balance, do you? The crusade to "fix" Amarr at the expense of balance has been****ging up all of Eve-O for far too long. Giving TC/TE falloff bonuses isn't overpowered. Racial EWar that is exceptionally effective against one race without an effective counter is.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.02.05 14:41:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Dianeces
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Bitter Amarr whine.
Instead of acting like everyone shares your bitter delusions, why don't you enlighten us with your "wisdom"? I mean, surely if its as overpowered as you seem to think, it should be blatantly obvious, right?
Of course, you really don't care about balance, do you? The crusade to "fix" Amarr at the expense of balance has been****ging up all of Eve-O for far too long. Giving TC/TE falloff bonuses isn't overpowered. Racial EWar that is exceptionally effective against one race without an effective counter is.
Because TDs affecting fall off is like a damage mod in mid slot. We dont need AC boats sticking damage mods in lows AND mids. Its bad enough with fall off rigs and you want this aswell? Not going to happen. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation |
Eleana Tomelac
Gallente Through the Looking Glass
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Posted - 2008.02.05 14:51:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Chavu
Originally by: Jurgen Cartis Please enlighten us about why falloff scripts for TCs would or would not be overpowered.
I'll give this one a shot (haven't thought about it much): These numbers are completely fictional:
Say artillery with 0% range has an optimal range of 100km. Plug in the optimal script and it can either hit at 110km or switch ammo and hit with more damage at 100km. Say autocannons with 0% range ammo has 100km falloff. Plug in the falloff script and it can hit at 110km and hit with more damage (since it has better accuracy) at 100km.
Difference is that the autocannon with falloff script gets more damage and range without having to switch ammo. I will argue that most pilots either use the highest damage ammo or the range ammo and only switch out ammo for the rare enemy who has a resistance hole or to switch from long range to short range ammo so the falloff script in practice doesn't offer anymore than the optimal script.
I'm not sure a falloff script would be used much since only autocannons really benefit from a falloff script and minmatar ships are pretty tight on their medium slots. I would have a hard time dropping a LSE II for +15% falloff on my Vaga. Tempest or Maelstrom might throw in a TC II or two with a falloff script but I can't think of many ships that would use such a script.
I don't believe a falloff script would be overpowered but very open to any ideas and arguments where it would be overpowered.
The best to see the effect of more falloff is to draw a graph considering the falloff bonus. Because what is 10% to falloff? it is pushing 10% further the distance where you will make 50% hits, at least for autocannons that have a non-existent optimal.
So, the falloff should never be allowed to be improved? I think people fighting in their falloff are quite courageaous, because when you are in falloff, you will never have the 'EFT DPS'. So, comparing pure DPS and not DPS graphs is totally crap!
I have an excel file there that makes graphs, just be careful that is is not properly configured for torpedoes and not properly configured on AS (because it was for a post about boosting AF) and some other ship and weapon misconfigurations may happen. Open it with excel and turn off the automatic calculations in the options. Then reconfigure, choose ships and weapons and have nice graphs! -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast !
Assault Frigates MK II |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.02.05 14:55:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Eleana Tomelac
The best to see the effect of more falloff is to draw a graph considering the falloff bonus. Because what is 10% to falloff? it is pushing 10% further the distance where you will make 50% hits, at least for autocannons that have a non-existent optimal.
So, the falloff should never be allowed to be improved? I think people fighting in their falloff are quite courageaous, because when you are in falloff, you will never have the 'EFT DPS'. So, comparing pure DPS and not DPS graphs is totally crap!
I have an excel file there that makes graphs, just be careful that is is not properly configured for torpedoes and not properly configured on AS (because it was for a post about boosting AF) and some other ship and weapon misconfigurations may happen. Open it with excel and turn off the automatic calculations in the options. Then reconfigure, choose ships and weapons and have nice graphs!
Its also crap to not take tracking into account when comparing ACs to pulses while calculating dps... -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation |
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