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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.02.12 03:46:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon Giving a simple agility boot to the tempest would be enough I think. Would make it a good hit and bail out sniper and improve it as an anti support BS. And that would give it a proper role when compared to the maelstrom. Just a simple 15%-20% agility boost.
I think this is the only suggestion that has a chance of being implemented; the Minmatar community is fairly non-existent on these forums and will not be able to produce a sufficiently large whine thread like Amarr to receive any significant boosts.
Following the idea that Minmatar use their mobility to their advantage:
Armageddon: 16.4s align time, 156m/s, 1163m/s MWD Apocalypse: 16s align time, 144m/s, 1085m/s MWD Abaddon: 17.5s align time, 138m/s, 984m/s MWD
Scorpion: 14.9s align time, 144m/s, 1042m/s MWD Raven: 15.3s align time, 144m/s, 1070m/s MWD Rohk: 17.3s align time, 138m/s, 972m/s MWD
Dominix: 15.7s align time, 150m/s, 1148m/s MWD Megathron: 15.3s align time, 156m/s, 1213m/s MWD Hyperion: 15.3s align time, 163m/s, 1261m/s MWD
Typhoon: 14.9s align time, 188m/s, 1477m/s MWD Tempest: 15.3s align time, 175m/s, 1358m/s MWD Maelstrom: 17.1s align time, 144m/s, 1042m/s MWD
The speed difference is there; but the agility required to make use of the speed advantage is not unlike on the smaller ships. Tempest having the same agility as a Mega/Hype/Raven and *less* than a Scorpion whilst it is relying on mobility to win engagements seems to be a good area for improvement. It's superior MWD speed is incredibly difficult to take advantage of due to poor agility.
A 15-20% in agility would give it a role of a quick to align (but not an increased MWD speed), perhaps hit-and-run (as much as is possible on a BS) style combat and perhaps give it an edge to be chosen for roaming gangs over the higher DPSing/better tanking Typhoon and Maelstrom; without adding any DPS or tanking ability to the Tempest.
Follows the Minmatar doctrine and seems like a decent proposal that hopefully others can agree with.
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Ecky X
Your Assets Relocated
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Posted - 2008.02.12 10:10:00 -
[92]
/signed
Lol, always wanted to do that.
Threadsum thusfar:
Tempest has poor damage, no alpha advantage, a weak tank, and there are very few useful modules to put in its' spare slots.
Possible fixes: more damage, better tanking slot layout, or increasing speed/agility
I agree that an agility and/or speed increase might be just what the doctor ordered, since the Tempest will never be a nanoship... with, you know, tracking. It can't effectively dictate range like the Tempest of olde right now, and that made it unique.
Well, that takes care of close-range, anyway. But what about long-range? The Tempest really only has a price advantage over a Maelstrom. Do we give it more alhpa? I vote... maybe. Improve T2 sniper ammo slightly, perhaps, and we might see people using artillery again.
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Arkady Sadik
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.02.12 10:35:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Ariel Dawn the Minmatar community is fairly non-existent on these forums and will not be able to produce a sufficiently large whine thread like Amarr to receive any significant boosts.
YMMD
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Angelic Eviaran
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Posted - 2008.02.12 15:09:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Ariel Dawn the Minmatar community is fairly non-existent on these forums and will not be able to produce a sufficiently large whine thread like Amarr to receive any significant boosts.
I think the minmatar community is pretty noticable, just look at the TD discussions that they want to nerf before they even hit tranq. Theyve gonn weewee and doodood all over those threads
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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.02.12 15:44:00 -
[95]
Edited by: Ariel Dawn on 12/02/2008 15:45:03 Edited by: Ariel Dawn on 12/02/2008 15:44:33
Originally by: Angelic Eviaran
Originally by: Ariel Dawn the Minmatar community is fairly non-existent on these forums and will not be able to produce a sufficiently large whine thread like Amarr to receive any significant boosts.
I think the minmatar community is pretty noticable, just look at the TD discussions that they want to nerf before they even hit tranq. Theyve gonn weewee and doodood all over those threads
No, they want a counter to be available; as there is no way for Minmatar ships using AC to do anything about it while other races can. There is not a single mention in that thread about actually nerfing the new Tracking Disruptor changes. It is not a 'boost Minmatar' thread either.
Also, go to EVE-Search and type in 'Boost Minmatar'. You'll get a few hits here and there.
Type in 'Boost Amarr'. The number of hits you get is akin to typing 'p.orn' into google. When you read that a "12-33% damage boost is a good start" while they're still complaining that it is not enough, a facepalm is in order.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.12 20:19:00 -
[96]
No, there are ways, you just dont want to use those ways.
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Arkady Sadik
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.02.12 20:30:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Goumindong No, there are ways, you just dont want to use those ways.
The same ways exist for ships that rely on optimal. They just also have a tracking computer and tracking enhancers. But we all know that ACs are overpowered as is, they need ewar that affects them more than the poor weapons that rely on optimal. Now could we please get back to the topic of the thread, which was how the Tempest is the best battleship of them all and does need a nerf?
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.02.12 23:19:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Originally by: Goumindong No, there are ways, you just dont want to use those ways.
The same ways exist for ships that rely on optimal. They just also have a tracking computer and tracking enhancers. But we all know that ACs are overpowered as is, they need ewar that affects them more than the poor weapons that rely on optimal. Now could we please get back to the topic of the thread, which was how the Tempest is the best battleship of them all and does need a nerf?
Uhm. Same ways exist for ships that rely on optimal, ie amarr pulses? No, they arent fast enough to dictate range. Thats why amarr have the high optimal. Minmatar have the fastest ships so they CAN dictate range and thats why ACs work as they do. Facing pulses ACs need to go close and facing blasters they need to avoid getting close. Both doable because minmatar are always the fastest and most nimble ships. If you cant fly your race, dont whine and try to take it out on something that isnt related to the problem. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.12 23:59:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Originally by: Goumindong No, there are ways, you just dont want to use those ways.
The same ways exist for ships that rely on optimal. They just also have a tracking computer and tracking enhancers. But we all know that ACs are overpowered as is, they need ewar that affects them more than the poor weapons that rely on optimal. Now could we please get back to the topic of the thread, which was how the Tempest is the best battleship of them all and does need a nerf?
If you think that falloff and optimal rigs are reasonable options for blaster or laser ships you must have never flown or fit one ever, not even in EFT.
The difference between an ion blaster an neutron blaster is:
~7% DPS 20% optimal range 25% falloff
The difference between a Heavy Pulse laser or a Focused Medium Pulse laser is
15.6% dps 20% optimal range 25% falloff
The difference between a 425mm AC and a 220mm AC is
~5% dps irrelevent optimal range 0% falloff
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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.02.13 00:02:00 -
[100]
Edited by: Ariel Dawn on 13/02/2008 00:04:26
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Minmatar have the fastest ships so they CAN dictate range and thats why ACs work as they do. Facing pulses ACs need to go close and facing blasters they need to avoid getting close.
Minmatar Battleships dictating range with their 150m/s speed advantage. And there is no way to overcome the agility Goumindong unless you are suggesting taking one of the worst-tanking BS in the game and using those vital slots for inertia stabs.
Also, how my favorite two Minmatar experts who have never actually flown the ships show up in EVERY SINGLE THREAD possibly concerning a positive change for Minmatar? I like how you say Minmatar are the most nimble ships while completely ignoring the numbers. They're pretty much exactly the same in terms of agility as other races.
And, is a 15-20% agility boost to the Tempest overpowered somehow? Or should the ship continue having absolutely no role other than a cheaper Maelstrom option for fleet sniping? Maneuverability is what Minmatar is supposed to represent but does not have in agility like it's smaller ships. I cannot possibly fathom how you mouth breathers are going to argue against this. It's a racial thing, they should be the most agile by default, no modules required.
PS: This is not a TC/TE thread. Go troll in the appropriate thread please.
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Mila Prestoc
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Posted - 2008.02.13 00:05:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Ariel Dawn
Originally by: Kagura Nikon Giving a simple agility boot to the tempest would be enough I think. Would make it a good hit and bail out sniper and improve it as an anti support BS. And that would give it a proper role when compared to the maelstrom. Just a simple 15%-20% agility boost.
data stuff
The speed difference is there; but the agility required to make use of the speed advantage is not unlike on the smaller ships. Tempest having the same agility as a Mega/Hype/Raven and *less* than a Scorpion whilst it is relying on mobility to win engagements seems to be a good area for improvement. It's superior MWD speed is incredibly difficult to take advantage of due to poor agility.
A 15-20% in agility would give it a role of a quick to align (but not an increased MWD speed), perhaps hit-and-run (as much as is possible on a BS) style combat and perhaps give it an edge to be chosen for roaming gangs over the higher DPSing/better tanking Typhoon and Maelstrom; without adding any DPS or tanking ability to the Tempest.
Follows the Minmatar doctrine and seems like a decent proposal that hopefully others can agree with.
Aye pretty much my thoughts although a bit lower mass and improved agility to up the mwd speed wouldn't hurt, especially with heat where you could spend anywhere upto 10 seconds before your mwd cycles to overload it.
I'd position it with slightly better agility than a Typhoon and with 1425-1450m/s. So slightly more agile but slightly slower.
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Uhm. Same ways exist for ships that rely on optimal, ie amarr pulses? No, they arent fast enough to dictate range. Thats why amarr have the high optimal. Minmatar have the fastest ships so they CAN dictate range and thats why ACs work as they do. Facing pulses ACs need to go close and facing blasters they need to avoid getting close. Both doable because minmatar are always the fastest and most nimble ships. If you cant fly your race, dont whine and try to take it out on something that isnt related to the problem.
I think his point was you can modify optimal/tracking using rigs like falloff but also can use tracking computers / enhancers. But this is not the tracking computer/enhancer/disruptor topic. -------------------------
Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.13 00:16:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Ariel Dawn
PS: This is not a TC/TE thread. Go troll in the appropriate thread please.
Dont bring it up if you dont want to discuss it.
The 5 meds on the tempest are important to its balance. Agility is probably a decent idea.
Quote:
PPS: Don't forget the fact that the largest tier Minmatar AC per size does less DPS than the smallest tier Laser or Blaster in the same size category Goumindong. That might have some reason why Minmatar guns are easier to fit. Words bolded for effect.
Oh hey, arent you just a peachy little ball of mis-information today. Put the damage in context and it changes significantly.
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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.02.13 00:30:00 -
[103]
Edited by: Ariel Dawn on 13/02/2008 00:30:22
Originally by: Goumindong
PPS: Don't forget the fact that the largest tier Minmatar AC per size does less DPS than the smallest tier Laser or Blaster in the same size category Goumindong. That might have some reason why Minmatar guns are easier to fit. Words bolded for effect.
Oh hey, arent you just a peachy little ball of mis-information today. Put the damage in context and it changes significantly.
Yea. Minmatar ships with dual-damage (or single-damage) bonuses fitting their highest DPS guns do the same DPS as single-damage + tank bonus Amarr/Gallente ships fitting their lowest guns; and less in some cases. Unfortunately for the Tempest/Typhoon/Vaga/Cane/Sleipnir/etc, fitting the largest Autocannons requires fitting mods if the rest of the fit is to be standard, so you actually have to down-grade your guns. The guns which don't even match the lowest tier of other races, dropping down another tier.
There we go, context. Maybe there's a reason why other races can't fit their biggest guns so easily, hrm? Might even be because of balance!
Also still in shock you agreed with me about increasing agility being a good idea.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.02.13 00:34:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Ariel Dawn
Also still in shock you agreed with me about increasing agility being a good idea.
You should trust goumindong, he has good ideas and calculates everything so its balanced. I think agility wouldnt hurt it, it kinda goes along with the versitility of the tempest imo. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.13 00:56:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Ariel Dawn
Yea. Minmatar ships with dual-damage (or single-damage) bonuses fitting their highest DPS guns do the same DPS as single-damage + tank bonus Amarr/Gallente ships fitting their lowest guns;
With no damage bonus, loading long range ammo: base damage bonuses of 425 ACs, electron blasters, and focused medium Pulses
Electron: 34 FMP: 29 425mm: 30
Damage modification against standard amarr racial armor tank due to damage types[disadvantaging Minmitar more than usual] with no plates and an eanm/eanm/dc fitting[a relativly weak tank]
Electron: Base FMP: - about 12% 425: -2%
Quote: Unfortunately for the Tempest/Typhoon/Vaga/Cane/Sleipnir/etc, fitting the largest Autocannons requires fitting mods if the rest of the fit is to be standard, so you actually have to down-grade your guns
You can fit an mwd, 2 1600rts, 6 800mm ACs, 2 siege launcher IIs and as many 1 PG mods as you want on a tempest without any fitting mods with AWU 4
You can fit a MWD, xl-booster II, 7 425 ACs, and 2 falloff mods with AWU 4 and rigging 5.
You cant fit the phoon with 800mm ACs but hey you can fit 650s and 4 siege launchers with 2 plates an a t2 MWD at AWU 4.
You can fit a Cane with 6 425 ACs, 2 assault launchers, an MWD and a god damn 1600rt plate with AWU 4.[that is 704 DPS with 53k EHP before rigs with 2 damage mods and hail]
You have got to be ******* kidding me.
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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.02.13 01:12:00 -
[106]
Now look at the DPS with AM/Multi/EMP in that comparison. Try a tri-hardened tank instead of EANMs. Try an unplated, active tanking Minmatar setup. A close-range plated Minmatard ship can be kited all day long by Amarr and out-DPSed/out-Tanked at a Gallente's favorite range. And neuts are far, far more useful than the extra unbonused missile DPS on all of these ships, especially with the popularity of cap-unstable nano-ships and being able to shut down a non-Minmatar's weapons.
Your setups look fine from the vantage point of someone who doesn't fly Minmatar; not very good in practice.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.13 01:22:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Ariel Dawn Now look at the DPS with AM/Multi/EMP in that comparison. Try a tri-hardened tank instead of EANMs.
Since the AC user will be using Hail and not EMP if they are smart they gain about 1.3% but lose tracking in said situation.
No sense comparing un-opimized tanks. Optimized tanks fit plates, extenders and omni tanking modules.
Nothing wrong with plating minmitar ships.
Neuts are far less valuable than more DPS usually is.
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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.02.13 01:34:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 13/02/2008 01:29:48
Originally by: Ariel Dawn Now look at the DPS with AM/Multi/EMP in that comparison. Try a tri-hardened tank instead of EANMs.
Since the AC user will be using Hail and not EMP if they are smart they gain about 1.3% but lose tracking in said situation.
No sense comparing un-opimized tanks. Optimized tanks fit plates, extenders and omni tanking modules.
Nothing wrong with plating minmitar ships.
Neuts are far less valuable than more DPS usually is.
ed: and if you arent fitting plates and XL-boosters and your highest tier weapons and launchers and mwds then what in the god damn hell are you fitting on your ships to not be able to fit your top tier weapons?
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.13 01:43:00 -
[109]
Edited by: Goumindong on 13/02/2008 01:46:23 12 seconds is way way way to fast. An unplated Harbinger alligns in 11.4 second. Plated its 13.8 seconds.
Try 14.5 second allign at the lowest.
ed: Nice dodge of the issue when someone proves you wrong.
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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.02.13 02:27:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 13/02/2008 01:46:23 12 seconds is way way way to fast. An unplated Harbinger alligns in 11.4 second. Plated its 13.8 seconds.
Try 14.5 second allign at the lowest.
ed: Nice dodge of the issue when someone proves you wrong.
I'm not dodging the issue, I'm waiting until you figure out yourself how you don't know how to fit or fly Minmatar ships. Really nothing else that can be done nor any reason to bother replying to your posts. And you haven't proved me wrong on anything thus far, only provided poor evidence based on faulty reasoning regarding a race you have no experience flying.
14.5 seconds is barely faster than a Scorpion and is not enough to make it worth taking over a Typhoon when it deals significantly less DPS. Your Harbinger's align speed is irrelevant in giving the Tempest a defining role in the Battleship class. The agility advantage needs to be noticeable to give pilots any incentive whatsoever to chose a Tempest; it would not work as a nano-ship regardless. Being able to take advantage of your speed is very very difficult with Battleships; a 5% agility boost is not sufficient.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.13 02:36:00 -
[111]
Well then how in the world are you failing to fit these mods when such fits with powergrid intensive mods seem to fit just fine?
Just what uber builds are so powergrid intensive that you cant fit them?
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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.02.13 02:57:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 13/02/2008 02:37:59 Well then how in the world are you failing to fit these mods when such fits with powergrid intensive mods seem to fit just fine?
Just what builds as you are "supposed to" fly them are so powergrid intensive that you cant fit them?
1x Prototype Cloaking Device I 1x 'Malkuth' Rocket Launcher I (Defender Missiles) 2x Amarr Navy Tachyon Beam Laser (Radio L)
1x 10mn MicroWarpdrive II 1x 10mn Afterburner I 2x ECCM - Omni I
1x Large Armor Repairer II 1x Tracking Enhancer I 6x 50mm Rolled Tungsten Plate
3x TP-300 Drones (for painting)
Fly with Slave set and make sure to PUSH IT TO THE LIMITÖ (overheat).
Obviously.
Your inability to think outside of plated setups is none of my concern. Nor is your endless trolling of any threads mentioning a Minmatar boost. Please feel free to discuss Minmatar ships with me in a few months; should provide sufficient time to train them properly and me having trained for Amarr. Then we can get together and grouphug with other Amarrian players shouting how awesome and/or nerfed we are. It will be great!
Until then; XOXO
AD
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.13 02:58:00 -
[113]
No really, what are the fits?
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Mila Prestoc
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Posted - 2008.02.13 03:17:00 -
[114]
Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 13/02/2008 03:19:02 Just been messing about on test server before bed with:
6x Dual 425mm T2, 2x Neuts MWD T2, WD T2, Web, Heavy Cap Booster T2, TD LAR T2, 1600 RT, 2x EANM T2, DC T2, Gyro T2 3x Falloff.
Still don't like its general mobility even with just 1 plate and no armour rigs. Does alright against other heavy plated + armour rigged ships as the difference between the ships is widdened (where goums keeps them constant) but against anything with a serious tank your damage (even with neuts) isn't enough to break them. Just wish it was a little bit lighter, quicker and agile like the Phoon.
If damage+rof rig combination gave more than 1 damage module worth of dps increase it would be nice (say 75% of what 2 damage mods give) along with being able to fit a low calibration 3rd rig so ROF+DMG+Falloff combination was possible. -------------------------
Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
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Maraleith
The Culture Holding Corporation
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Posted - 2008.02.13 07:39:00 -
[115]
How about an agility and a speed adjustment plus a slot layout change; drop a non-turret high for a mid plus 2 lows?
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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.02.13 16:22:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Maraleith How about an agility and a speed adjustment plus a slot layout change; drop a non-turret high for a mid plus 2 lows?
Adding three slots at the cost of one utility high would imbalance the ship tremendously and has no chance of implementation, as well as perform similar roles to the Typhoon/Tempest. It's speed is already fine in comparison to other Battleships, it's just the agility that is severely lacking to be able to make use of it.
Also while we're at it, Typhoon/Huginn/Bellicose should get +1 Missile/+1 Turret slot.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.13 16:47:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Ariel Dawn
Also while we're at it, Typhoon/Huginn/Bellicose should get +1 Missile/+1 Turret slot.
The Phoon, Huginn, and Bellicose are fine
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Minsuki
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Posted - 2008.02.14 06:35:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Goumindong Bellicose [is] fine
...what?
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Maraleith
The Culture Holding Corporation
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Posted - 2008.02.14 10:57:00 -
[119]
To claim the Bellicose with its UBER ewar 7.5% bonus to target painter effectiveness per skill level is a "fine" ship simply beggars belief. If that was a tracking link bonus then I would listen to you. With a tracking link bonus the Bellicose becomes a wonderful support ship with very useful anti-support capability. But that's what a logistics ships are for isn't it?
The basic issue remains, the Amarr love requires a Minmatar response; otherwise the sniper Tempest will be outranged and outtanked.
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Arkady Sadik
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.02.14 11:12:00 -
[120]
Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 14/02/2008 11:13:34 (Sorry to detract the thread again)
Originally by: Maraleith To claim the Bellicose with its UBER ewar 7.5% bonus to target painter effectiveness per skill level is a "fine" ship simply beggars belief. If that was a tracking link bonus then I would listen to you. With a tracking link bonus the Bellicose becomes a wonderful support ship with very useful anti-support capability. But that's what a logistics ships are for isn't it?
I guess you could argue that the Bellicose in itself is quite in line with the other ewar cruisers, and if TPs would be useful, the Bellicose would be as well - so in a sense, the ship is fine, what is wrong are target painters. (Of course it requires some kind of lawyer's doubletalk to sum this up with "the bellicose is fine", but nothing new here)
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