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Pattern Clarc
Quam Singulari The Church.
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Posted - 2008.02.04 14:34:00 -
[1]
Tempest (and fleet pest) needs looking at.
It's nicheless, out 1v1 by the Hyperion, out sniped by everything, out ganked by the phoon. It's only used by pilots unable to let go of the nostalgia of massive wrecking hits - or ones too cheap to use the maelstrom.
With the up coming tracking disruptor changes, one of the tempests biggest arsenals (it's speed + fall off) in it's primary rolls is seriously under threat.
If I where to fix the tempest?
I'd give it 7 turrets, and remove the damage bonus for a 10% fall off bonus, keeping the 2 launcher slots with an appropriate grid increase.
I'd also introduce falloff scripts for tracking computers.
It follows on neatly to the Vargur bonuses and provides a ship and a fighting style different to anything existing currently.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.02.04 14:37:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Pattern Clarc
I'd also introduce falloff scripts for tracking computers.
Overpowered. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation |
Zeoliter
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.02.04 14:46:00 -
[3]
Are you insane? It's range might not be great but it's still the hardest hitting tier 2 BS in the game. Out-gunned by a blaster-boat? Whut?
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Pattern Clarc
Quam Singulari The Church.
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Posted - 2008.02.04 15:06:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 04/02/2008 15:07:16
Originally by: Zeoliter Are you insane? It's range might not be great but it's still the hardest hitting tier 2 BS in the game. Out-gunned by a blaster-boat? Whut?
It's outganked by the phoon, out tanked by the phoon and the maelstrom and slower than the hyperion w/o rigs i'm afraid to say...
I think you belong in the nostalgic tempest pilot category.
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sdthujfg
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Posted - 2008.02.04 15:20:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Pattern Clarc Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 04/02/2008 15:07:16
Originally by: Zeoliter Are you insane? It's range might not be great but it's still the hardest hitting tier 2 BS in the game. Out-gunned by a blaster-boat? Whut?
It's outganked by the phoon, out tanked by the phoon and the maelstrom and slower than the hyperion w/o rigs i'm afraid to say...
I think you belong in the nostalgic tempest pilot category.
Tempest is fine.
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Pattern Clarc
Quam Singulari The Church.
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Posted - 2008.02.04 15:40:00 -
[6]
Originally by: sdthujfg
Originally by: Pattern Clarc Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 04/02/2008 15:07:16
Originally by: Zeoliter Are you insane? It's range might not be great but it's still the hardest hitting tier 2 BS in the game. Out-gunned by a blaster-boat? Whut?
It's outganked by the phoon, out tanked by the phoon and the maelstrom and slower than the hyperion w/o rigs i'm afraid to say...
I think you belong in the nostalgic tempest pilot category.
Tempest is fine.
Please elaborate.
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Pattern Clarc
Quam Singulari The Church.
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Posted - 2008.02.04 16:21:00 -
[7]
Originally by: sdthujfg
Originally by: Pattern Clarc Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 04/02/2008 15:07:16
Originally by: Zeoliter Are you insane? It's range might not be great but it's still the hardest hitting tier 2 BS in the game. Out-gunned by a blaster-boat? Whut?
It's outganked by the phoon, out tanked by the phoon and the maelstrom and slower than the hyperion w/o rigs i'm afraid to say...
I think you belong in the nostalgic tempest pilot category.
Tempest is fine.
You say it's fine, heres some reasons why it's not.
Quote: It has fallen victim to many nerfs over time:
- HP buff - ECM nerf - nos nerf - rigs being added to the game hurt it badly in many ways, including its "versatility" - other, smaller effects - it has low HP, low DPS for a ship with two DPS bonuses
It can snipe, but it isn't really the best at it. It can do remote rep gangs too but its DPS is mediocre compared to what other similar-fit ships can do.
No matter what it does, it can't beat a well-flown/fitted megathron without using EW due to the mechanics of null + disruptor range, it can't compete with pulse battleships in gangs, and probably can't beat those 1v1 either because they all have better tanks and more damage. The raven too completely outclasses the Tempest and even out-EW's it. Pretty much every tier 3 battleship smacks the tempest away with ease.
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Katashi Ishizuka
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Posted - 2008.02.04 17:24:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Katashi I****uka on 04/02/2008 17:26:00 Uh... what on earth are you smoking. I'm just going to investigate plated gank battleship setups here, other stuff; I am aware there are many battleship setups.
[Tempest, [PVP] Plated Close-Range DPS] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II
100MN MicroWarpdrive II Stasis Webifier II Warp Disruptor II Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800 Sensor Booster II, Targeting Speed
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo
Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I
Ogre II x2 Hammerhead II x2 Hobgoblin II x1
This has 102k EHP, 1024 dps, more range, has the option of using Barrage, and you get use explosive damage which is great against armor tankers. Plus, you get to fit a sensor booster. There's room for a flight of Warrior IIs in your drone bay and if you like you can fit a neut in one of the highs due to AC low fitting reqs, so you pretty much swat away light tacklers and such.
VS.
[Megathron, [PVP] T2 Max Gank] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Adaptive Nano Plating II Damage Control II
100MN MicroWarpdrive II Stasis Webifier II Warp Disruptor II Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L [empty high slot]
Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I
Ogre II x5
100k EHP (less than tempest) 1252 DPS (about 20% more), drone bay has no replacements, goes about 150m/s slower than the tempest, doesn't have a SB, and Null really has got nothing on Barrage for when you are webbed but have to reach out and touch someone.
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Kery Syander
The Illuminati. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.02.04 17:40:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Kery Syander on 04/02/2008 17:44:17 Tempest is a pretty medicore ship now at best. The TD boost is really just the final straw on it's back. I definitely agree it lackes a niche.
Edit: Saying null has nothing on barrage is rediculous. A Mega with null will outdamage a Pest at 20km. I would trade 20% DPS difference for 2k effective HP. -----
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Pattern Clarc
Quam Singulari The Church.
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Posted - 2008.02.04 17:54:00 -
[10]
Wow, you've got to like the min/max EFT theory craft.
With overloading, any notion that the tempest could just stay at fall off range and chip away at the megathron without the megathron either warping away or webbing the tempest is ludacris. I'm a gallente spec pilot myself, general latency is enough to screw up the balance which once presided over this sacred comparison.
Nonetheless in the above, the tempest has an amazing 2% more EHP, 1000 dps which turns more into 900 dps against anything smaller than a Moon + a sensor booster vs the thron's 20% more damage, increased tracking and drone bay. The explosive damage type is great, until the 2x EANM/Exposive hardener combo is used (standard fit on most galente ships FYI), then it's all down hill.
The neut might be useful against a cruiser but the cap damage done to a plated, cap injected setup is minimal.
Why wouldn't I just use a phoon in this instance which at least does around the damage damage of a gank thron?
The standard comparison aside, the tempest and minmatar BS line up now doesn't' measure well against any of the other races. The caldari who have now an amazing versatility in there battleship line up will just never have this problem. If the apoc changes go through, the tempest as a sniper, will be so far in the dirt it wouldn't even be worth using it. The token EW mod has become a relic of past times with the fall off bonus of the pest under threat by the new TD's.
When confronted with the alternative, when is the Tempest actually the highest performer?
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Gavin Darklighter
THE FINAL STAND
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Posted - 2008.02.04 18:15:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Gavin Darklighter on 04/02/2008 18:19:57 Tempest needs a 7th low IMO. Give the 'phoon the 8/5/6 slot layout instead. The Mach would stay 8/5/7, and the fleet Tempest would get 8/4/8 (like the Navy Mega).
Also, if tracking disruptors disrupt falloff, tracking computers should boost falloff.
With Pulse Apocs getting nearly 90km optimal when fit with tracking comps, I see no reason why fitting a few falloff-boosting tracking comps to an AC boat would be overpowered.
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.02.04 19:42:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Katashi I****uka Edited by: Katashi I****uka on 04/02/2008 17:26:00 Uh... what on earth are you smoking. I'm just going to investigate plated gank battleship setups here, other stuff; I am aware there are many battleship setups.
[Tempest, [PVP] Plated Close-Range DPS] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II
100MN MicroWarpdrive II Stasis Webifier II Warp Disruptor II Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800 Sensor Booster II, Targeting Speed
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo
Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I
Ogre II x2 Hammerhead II x2 Hobgoblin II x1
This has 102k EHP, 1024 dps, more range, has the option of using Barrage, and you get use explosive damage which is great against armor tankers. Plus, you get to fit a sensor booster. There's room for a flight of Warrior IIs in your drone bay and if you like you can fit a neut in one of the highs due to AC low fitting reqs, so you pretty much swat away light tacklers and such.
VS.
[Megathron, [PVP] T2 Max Gank] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Adaptive Nano Plating II Damage Control II
100MN MicroWarpdrive II Stasis Webifier II Warp Disruptor II Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L [empty high slot]
Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I
Ogre II x5
100k EHP (less than tempest) 1252 DPS (about 20% more), drone bay has no replacements, goes about 150m/s slower than the tempest, doesn't have a SB, and Null really has got nothing on Barrage for when you are webbed but have to reach out and touch someone.
You notice that typhoon can field a 7 slot tank and reach 940 dps ? Pr using a 4 slot tank like that tempest reach 1250 dps? all taht stil being cheaper.
YEs tempest is now probably the worse battleship. But not as bad as to be crap. The fleet tempest on other had is completely crap... an extra mid slot while the ship simply don 't have CPU to use it.
------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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Katashi Ishizuka
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Posted - 2008.02.04 20:14:00 -
[13]
Tempest is pretty much outclassed at close-range gank and sniping, I agree. And with lag the way it is, MegaT can catch a 'Pest.
However, Pest can fit a neut unlike Neutron thron, and has a 5th mid for EWAR if you so choose. This will lead itself to a T-Disruptor after the falloff boost. MegaT can't sacrifice a cap booster to counter-TD, the Tempest can then kite it in falloff, which is then definitely below 24km.
As well as, Barrage outranging Null IS a great help in 30km gang fights - MegaT loses effective DPS since it has to MWD around. On top of that, there are actually not that many ships that had the slots and the tank to make fitting 2xEANM+EX HARD + DC worthwhile over damage mdos.
ON TOP OF THAT armor is getting 10% off EM resists and shield 10% off, just made your most damaging faction ammo even better.
+, The tempest is cheaper after insurance than a Maelstrom, and to imply that it is outclassed by such a large margin as to make the Tempest a worthless battleship is ridiculous, in my opinion.
Pattern Clarc is overdramatizing the weaknesses of the 'Pest to make his case stronger. He's saying the Tempest is **** when in reality it's kind of like... i dunno, half-flat beer.
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prathe
Minmatar Omega Enterprises Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2008.02.04 20:35:00 -
[14]
i dunno the tempest seems to be okay i have never had problems with the sniper version
i think that maybe most of the problems that users suffer with are rather related to tactics and fittings rather than the base hull . fancy mathematics , dream scenarios and eft quoting aside . the tempest is a decent close range bs not amazing but not crap . long range it really shines optimal 145-150k falloff still gets some fairly sdecent hit rates at 180+ . it's a shock and awe weapon tbh
try 6x1400 t2 1 named large neut 3 sensor bootsters 2 tracking computers 3 gyros 2 tracking enhancers and a reator control
like all minmatar ships it requires quick actions and a tact-ful approach to combat the payoff is in the inherent skills of the pilots not the hull ( same with all ship really )
am i a nostalgic big dammage lover oh yes but should a ship be changed into a giant half - assed vagabond to suit the needs a a few pilots NO
when you have large arty spec 5 and bs 5 and push a 18x dmg mod youll understand the tempy and what it's for .
love prathey signature removed - please email us to find out why (include a link to the image URL) - Jacques([email protected])
why dont you just tell me ? |
Pattern Clarc
Quam Singulari The Church.
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Posted - 2008.02.04 21:52:00 -
[15]
Originally by: prathe i dunno the tempest seems to be okay i have never had problems with the sniper version
i think that maybe most of the problems that users suffer with are rather related to tactics and fittings rather than the base hull . fancy mathematics , dream scenarios and eft quoting aside . the tempest is a decent close range bs not amazing but not crap . long range it really shines optimal 145-150k falloff still gets some fairly sdecent hit rates at 180+ . it's a shock and awe weapon tbh
The Abaddon and Maelstrom now out alpha the tempest, as well as doing more damage over time.
The energy neutraliser is nice, however to fit it, you lose the use of a very valuble low slot (Damage control unit)
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Angelic Eviaran
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Posted - 2008.02.04 22:00:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Gavin Darklighter Edited by: Gavin Darklighter on 04/02/2008 18:19:57 Tempest needs a 7th low IMO. Give the 'phoon the 8/5/6 slot layout instead. The Mach would stay 8/5/7, and the fleet Tempest would get 8/4/8 (like the Navy Mega).
Also, if tracking disruptors disrupt falloff, tracking computers should boost falloff.
With Pulse Apocs getting nearly 90km optimal when fit with tracking comps, I see no reason why fitting a few falloff-boosting tracking comps to an AC boat would be overpowered.
Its a good thing youre not balancing eve because that would be a nightmare.
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Kery Syander
The Illuminati. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.02.04 22:50:00 -
[17]
Originally by: prathe i dunno the tempest seems to be okay i have never had problems with the sniper version
i think that maybe most of the problems that users suffer with are rather related to tactics and fittings rather than the base hull . fancy mathematics , dream scenarios and eft quoting aside . the tempest is a decent close range bs not amazing but not crap . long range it really shines optimal 145-150k falloff still gets some fairly sdecent hit rates at 180+ . it's a shock and awe weapon tbh
try 6x1400 t2 1 named large neut 3 sensor bootsters 2 tracking computers 3 gyros 2 tracking enhancers and a reator control
like all minmatar ships it requires quick actions and a tact-ful approach to combat the payoff is in the inherent skills of the pilots not the hull ( same with all ship really )
am i a nostalgic big dammage lover oh yes but should a ship be changed into a giant half - assed vagabond to suit the needs a a few pilots NO
when you have large arty spec 5 and bs 5 and push a 18x dmg mod youll understand the tempy and what it's for .
love prathey
That's a good idea. We should throw all EFT theory, mathematics, and 'numbers' in general out the window now. Graphs? Useless. Balance should involve how ships look, too and we all know minmatar ships look really cool. The tempest just feels ok to me, which means it must be a great ship, and I must be a great pilot.
As a sniper with the Apoc changes currently SISI, the tempest is a pretty poor sniper. Right now the tempest has no role it accels in, and is almost always outclassed by amarr ships (meaning they have better tanks and damage) at long range, gallente ships at short range, and caldari ships at all ranges. -----
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Domania
Convergent Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2008.02.04 22:56:00 -
[18]
Quote: I'd give it 7 turrets, and remove the damage bonus for a 10% fall off bonus, keeping the 2 launcher slots with an appropriate grid increase.
Take away either the damage or refire rate bonus and I'll have to unleash a world of pain in game, plus hire tons of alts to whine about the change. ;) The only thing that sounds nice is the fall off script for tracking computers, other then that, leave the tempest alone. I repeat, step away from the tempest, and leave it alone. P.S Leave my favorite ship alone!
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.02.04 22:59:00 -
[19]
Random Idea... change both bonuses to 5% damage per level ( I know drops dps) but gives an extra turret :P
Alpha king again :)
I know I know.. but a man can dream.
------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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Dianeces
Minmatar Repo Industries
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Posted - 2008.02.05 00:58:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Pattern Clarc
I'd also introduce falloff scripts for tracking computers.
Overpowered.
Much like scripts that modify falloff for tracking disruptors.
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Rogerano
Minmatar Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.02.05 00:59:00 -
[21]
Tempest is a bit "el oh el" now.
It needs re-evaluation because EVE has changed considerably since the design was first introduced. Personally I would not fly a tempest over a phoon in any situation except sniping, but wait, the maelstrom was _designed_ as a fleet sniper... Well, be that as it may, the maelstrom out-performs the tempest both at sniping and close range fits. With rigs you can get a lovely 50km falloff (ACs) on the mael and the shield tank is nice too because it works well and allows for max gank.
Where does the tempest fit in here? Versatility right? If you say so... But I regard versatility as a nice-sounding euphemism for "irrelevant in the face of other ship choices". Personally I would prefer to see the tempest shed the versatility fetters and get a defined role. --- Not happy with something in EVE? An emo whine will doubtless help your cause. |
Joudas
Caldari Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.02.05 01:17:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Pattern Clarc
I'd also introduce falloff scripts for tracking computers.
Overpowered.
instead of being so quick witted with your one liners, why don't you read it , stop , and think about how im sure your husband would like it ,if you just went ahead and stopped wearing that toupe , and just admitted to the world your a 35yr old balding male would cant get enough enrique in his life...
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Jurgen Cartis
Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration
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Posted - 2008.02.05 04:44:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Joudas
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Pattern Clarc
I'd also introduce falloff scripts for tracking computers.
Overpowered.
instead of being so quick witted with your one liners, why don't you read it , stop , and think about how im sure your husband would like it ,if you just went ahead and stopped wearing that toupe , and just admitted to the world your a 35yr old balding male would cant get enough enrique in his life...
5/10 for Ad Hominem. Neither you nor Lyria has made any real arguments yet. Please enlighten us about why falloff scripts for TCs would or would not be overpowered. -------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales FIRST!! -Yipsilanti Pfft. Never such a thing as a "last chance". ;) -Rauth |
Chavu
Ganja Labs Pure.
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Posted - 2008.02.05 10:53:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Jurgen Cartis Please enlighten us about why falloff scripts for TCs would or would not be overpowered.
I'll give this one a shot (haven't thought about it much): These numbers are completely fictional:
Say artillery with 0% range has an optimal range of 100km. Plug in the optimal script and it can either hit at 110km or switch ammo and hit with more damage at 100km. Say autocannons with 0% range ammo has 100km falloff. Plug in the falloff script and it can hit at 110km and hit with more damage (since it has better accuracy) at 100km.
Difference is that the autocannon with falloff script gets more damage and range without having to switch ammo. I will argue that most pilots either use the highest damage ammo or the range ammo and only switch out ammo for the rare enemy who has a resistance hole or to switch from long range to short range ammo so the falloff script in practice doesn't offer anymore than the optimal script.
I'm not sure a falloff script would be used much since only autocannons really benefit from a falloff script and minmatar ships are pretty tight on their medium slots. I would have a hard time dropping a LSE II for +15% falloff on my Vaga. Tempest or Maelstrom might throw in a TC II or two with a falloff script but I can't think of many ships that would use such a script.
I don't believe a falloff script would be overpowered but very open to any ideas and arguments where it would be overpowered.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.02.05 11:09:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Joudas
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Pattern Clarc
I'd also introduce falloff scripts for tracking computers.
Overpowered.
instead of being so quick witted with your one liners, why don't you read it , stop , and think about how im sure your husband would like it ,if you just went ahead and stopped wearing that toupe , and just admitted to the world your a 35yr old balding male would cant get enough enrique in his life...
WoW, what has happend to DNA? You guys used to know this game. You really should know why TCs affecting fall off would not be such a great idea. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation |
Dristra
Amarr Shadows of the Dead The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.02.05 11:32:00 -
[26]
Well, 7 turrets would help...
Support the introduction of well thought out Amarr solutions!
I believe rats should avoid you if you have high standing with them. |
Dianeces
Minmatar Repo Industries
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Posted - 2008.02.05 14:32:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Bitter Amarr whine.
Instead of acting like everyone shares your bitter delusions, why don't you enlighten us with your "wisdom"? I mean, surely if its as overpowered as you seem to think, it should be blatantly obvious, right?
Of course, you really don't care about balance, do you? The crusade to "fix" Amarr at the expense of balance has been****ging up all of Eve-O for far too long. Giving TC/TE falloff bonuses isn't overpowered. Racial EWar that is exceptionally effective against one race without an effective counter is.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.02.05 14:41:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Dianeces
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Bitter Amarr whine.
Instead of acting like everyone shares your bitter delusions, why don't you enlighten us with your "wisdom"? I mean, surely if its as overpowered as you seem to think, it should be blatantly obvious, right?
Of course, you really don't care about balance, do you? The crusade to "fix" Amarr at the expense of balance has been****ging up all of Eve-O for far too long. Giving TC/TE falloff bonuses isn't overpowered. Racial EWar that is exceptionally effective against one race without an effective counter is.
Because TDs affecting fall off is like a damage mod in mid slot. We dont need AC boats sticking damage mods in lows AND mids. Its bad enough with fall off rigs and you want this aswell? Not going to happen. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation |
Eleana Tomelac
Gallente Through the Looking Glass
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Posted - 2008.02.05 14:51:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Chavu
Originally by: Jurgen Cartis Please enlighten us about why falloff scripts for TCs would or would not be overpowered.
I'll give this one a shot (haven't thought about it much): These numbers are completely fictional:
Say artillery with 0% range has an optimal range of 100km. Plug in the optimal script and it can either hit at 110km or switch ammo and hit with more damage at 100km. Say autocannons with 0% range ammo has 100km falloff. Plug in the falloff script and it can hit at 110km and hit with more damage (since it has better accuracy) at 100km.
Difference is that the autocannon with falloff script gets more damage and range without having to switch ammo. I will argue that most pilots either use the highest damage ammo or the range ammo and only switch out ammo for the rare enemy who has a resistance hole or to switch from long range to short range ammo so the falloff script in practice doesn't offer anymore than the optimal script.
I'm not sure a falloff script would be used much since only autocannons really benefit from a falloff script and minmatar ships are pretty tight on their medium slots. I would have a hard time dropping a LSE II for +15% falloff on my Vaga. Tempest or Maelstrom might throw in a TC II or two with a falloff script but I can't think of many ships that would use such a script.
I don't believe a falloff script would be overpowered but very open to any ideas and arguments where it would be overpowered.
The best to see the effect of more falloff is to draw a graph considering the falloff bonus. Because what is 10% to falloff? it is pushing 10% further the distance where you will make 50% hits, at least for autocannons that have a non-existent optimal.
So, the falloff should never be allowed to be improved? I think people fighting in their falloff are quite courageaous, because when you are in falloff, you will never have the 'EFT DPS'. So, comparing pure DPS and not DPS graphs is totally crap!
I have an excel file there that makes graphs, just be careful that is is not properly configured for torpedoes and not properly configured on AS (because it was for a post about boosting AF) and some other ship and weapon misconfigurations may happen. Open it with excel and turn off the automatic calculations in the options. Then reconfigure, choose ships and weapons and have nice graphs! -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast !
Assault Frigates MK II |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.02.05 14:55:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Eleana Tomelac
The best to see the effect of more falloff is to draw a graph considering the falloff bonus. Because what is 10% to falloff? it is pushing 10% further the distance where you will make 50% hits, at least for autocannons that have a non-existent optimal.
So, the falloff should never be allowed to be improved? I think people fighting in their falloff are quite courageaous, because when you are in falloff, you will never have the 'EFT DPS'. So, comparing pure DPS and not DPS graphs is totally crap!
I have an excel file there that makes graphs, just be careful that is is not properly configured for torpedoes and not properly configured on AS (because it was for a post about boosting AF) and some other ship and weapon misconfigurations may happen. Open it with excel and turn off the automatic calculations in the options. Then reconfigure, choose ships and weapons and have nice graphs!
Its also crap to not take tracking into account when comparing ACs to pulses while calculating dps... -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation |
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Eleana Tomelac
Gallente Through the Looking Glass
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Posted - 2008.02.05 15:02:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Eleana Tomelac
The best to see the effect of more falloff is to draw a graph considering the falloff bonus. Because what is 10% to falloff? it is pushing 10% further the distance where you will make 50% hits, at least for autocannons that have a non-existent optimal.
So, the falloff should never be allowed to be improved? I think people fighting in their falloff are quite courageaous, because when you are in falloff, you will never have the 'EFT DPS'. So, comparing pure DPS and not DPS graphs is totally crap!
I have an excel file there that makes graphs, just be careful that is is not properly configured for torpedoes and not properly configured on AS (because it was for a post about boosting AF) and some other ship and weapon misconfigurations may happen. Open it with excel and turn off the automatic calculations in the options. Then reconfigure, choose ships and weapons and have nice graphs!
Its also crap to not take tracking into account when comparing ACs to pulses while calculating dps...
Yeah, I learned to be careful about EFT DPS, it makes all amarr ship look crap while when I use them, I keep at my optimal for 0% miss as much as I can while AC and blaster setups throws amunition everywhere and may not do the intended DPS. There is a real strenght in the mid range combat used by amarr ships, and I like it.
So, DPS graphs including tracking (you can configure it in the excel file) are useful.
PS : I added the link in my previous post, forgot it before! -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast !
Assault Frigates MK II |
Maraleith
The Culture Holding Corporation
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Posted - 2008.02.05 15:32:00 -
[32]
The current predicament of the Minnie bs is all down to the desire to make all ships the same. Tell me honestly, when did you last see an autopest in a gang? Be honest now, as an FC, when someone says, "I'm bringing an autopest". How many say change for a Vagabond or a Scorpion? Why is that???
The criminal act was nerfing its alpha. Now the pest is outdamaged by the megathron up close, just about out ranged by the T2 sniperthron and the new Amarr battleship, easily jammed by a Blackbird, horribly vulnerable to sensor dampening and out-tanked by virtually everyone else at close or long range.
The wombats that call themselves game developers did this in the full knowledge of what they wanted. They nerfed range -20% to Tremor. They nerfed artillery alpha strike; so what's left? Speed, that got nerfed. Minnie bs and the Tempest in particular have lost their place as front line battleships in fleets. Any doubts - explain why sniper fleets are now dominated by Megathrons. Tell me what happened to Tempest dominated fleets?
Solution: WHINE and WAIT - IT WORKED FOR AMARR!
Typhoon - what a great idea that was? Everyone knows its useless. So change it! But the arrogance of CCP refuses to acknowledge the LONG term minnie problem with this ship. Let's make it an alternative to the Dominix - torpedo spewing droneboat with a great armour tank. Adjust the DPS with a change in one bonus to drone damage and then balance out the dps. But I fear this cannot be done as it would be an admission that for YEARS CCP had the concept for this ship wrong.
Tempest - utility gunboat - give it a tank - take away one non-turret high slot and give it two mid slots - do not change bonuses. Then all of a sudden people will go Hmm. Not very hard to do. And guess what? It is now a shield tanker, what it was allways meant to be looking at the Vargur - RIGHT?
Malestrom - Pure Gunboat. Change this pile of dung. Give its sensors a range boost as its a tier three ship, so I don't need three sensor boosters to do what everyone else does with two. Make it the most agile and fastest battleship in the game by a decent margin. So it can either be used in sniper or autopest mode. And no; not a speed buff by 10% but by 20%. Then watch how many get used everywhere as skill points, skill as a pilot and teamwork determine best how to use this ship. No need to change dps as skills and rigs and fitouts will take care of the rest.
REVERSE the ill-conceived nerfing of Tremor T2 range and alpha strike. We won't comment on the tremendous advantage an inherent range bonus gives to other races sniping ships because that would just highlight the stupidity of nerfing Minnie artillery in the first place.
"Oh, you can one shot a cruiser" people cry. Yes but it takes a lot of skills and a pure gank fitout to do it and now the cruiser can be set up with rigs to tank an alpha critical hit.
And I haven't even mentioned the SISI armor nerf for minnie ships which will make armor tanking really easy - NOT. But that's all right because I just need to train up my skills twice as high to do half as much.
Lastly - The module that shall not be named needs a MASSIVE buff to counter the wondrous proposed tracking disruptor. Of course Minnie ewar - benefits missile ships the most as that's logical and makes sense!
I would love to see an alternative to the terrific target painter but CCP wouldn't listen to any suggestion. For example, if I could fit a chaff launcher which has a % chance to decoy away missiles and lower my signature (thereby reducing damage opportunity) then that could interesting. Bellicose chaff spewing target painting boats anyone?
Am I happy about the current state of Minnie BS - No. Why? Because CCP's repeated tinkering is taking away Eve's uniqueness. Soon, all the children in the sandbox will be the same and only then will CCP realise that that's no fun.
All in the desire for a "fairer" game. If I wanted fairness I would play WoW!
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Pattern Clarc
Quam Singulari The Church.
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Posted - 2008.02.05 15:49:00 -
[33]
Proposed tempest setups.
Bonuses: 7.5% ROF bonus, 10% bonus to fall off of Large Projectile Turrets
Grid/CPU changed to fit the following.
6x 800mm Repeating Artillery II 2x Heavy Unstable Power Drain
100mn MWD II Heavy Cap Injector II Fleeting Web Sensor booster II Tracking Computer II (with 30% fall off ambit extension script)
2x 1600 Rolled Tungsten Plate 2x EANM II Gyrostabliser II Damage Control II
2x Ambit Extension I Rigs (now become stacking penalised) Trimark Armor Rig
75m3 Drone Bay 3x Bouncer II's
With barrage, it would deal less than 600 dps +bouncers, 250-300 dps at 80km (optimal + fall off) with 800mm tracking is certainly different. Maybe even useful - Discuss.
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Pattern Clarc
Quam Singulari The Church.
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Posted - 2008.02.05 15:55:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Maraleith
Typhoon - what a great idea that was? Everyone knows its useless. So change it! But the arrogance of CCP refuses to acknowledge the LONG term minnie problem with this ship. Let's make it an alternative to the Dominix - torpedo spewing droneboat with a great armour tank. Adjust the DPS with a change in one bonus to drone damage and then balance out the dps. But I fear this cannot be done as it would be an admission that for YEARS CCP had the concept for this ship wrong.
Tempest - utility gunboat - give it a tank - take away one non-turret high slot and give it two mid slots - do not change bonuses. Then all of a sudden people will go Hmm. Not very hard to do. And guess what? It is now a shield tanker, what it was allways meant to be looking at the Vargur - RIGHT?
Malestrom - Pure Gunboat. Change this pile of dung. Give its sensors a range boost as its a tier three ship, so I don't need three sensor boosters to do what everyone else does with two. Make it the most agile and fastest battleship in the game by a decent margin. So it can either be used in sniper or autopest mode. And no; not a speed buff by 10% but by 20%. Then watch how many get used everywhere as skill points, skill as a pilot and teamwork determine best how to use this ship. No need to change dps as skills and rigs and fitouts will take care of the rest.
I have to disagree with you.
The Phoon, although stupidly skill intensive is an amazing ship. Near imbalanced due to the damage potential it now has combined with it's speed and slot layout.
Maelstrom is one of my favourite ships in the game. Has the best mwd + sniper fit and for close range, it is the reason why no one uses an ac pest any more. And for what you want from it, the vargur provides.
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Niffetin
Gallente Omni Research
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Posted - 2008.02.05 16:05:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Katashi I****uka Edited by: Katashi I****uka on 04/02/2008 17:26:00 Uh... what on earth are you smoking. I'm just going to investigate plated gank battleship setups here, other stuff; I am aware there are many battleship setups.
[Tempest, [PVP] Plated Close-Range DPS] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II
100MN MicroWarpdrive II Stasis Webifier II Warp Disruptor II Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800 Sensor Booster II, Targeting Speed
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo
Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I
Ogre II x2 Hammerhead II x2 Hobgoblin II x1
This has 102k EHP, 1024 dps, more range, has the option of using Barrage, and you get use explosive damage which is great against armor tankers. Plus, you get to fit a sensor booster. There's room for a flight of Warrior IIs in your drone bay and if you like you can fit a neut in one of the highs due to AC low fitting reqs, so you pretty much swat away light tacklers and such.
VS.
[Megathron, [PVP] T2 Max Gank] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Adaptive Nano Plating II Damage Control II
100MN MicroWarpdrive II Stasis Webifier II Warp Disruptor II Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L [empty high slot]
Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I
Ogre II x5
100k EHP (less than tempest) 1252 DPS (about 20% more), drone bay has no replacements, goes about 150m/s slower than the tempest, doesn't have a SB, and Null really has got nothing on Barrage for when you are webbed but have to reach out and touch someone.
Nerf Tempest! --- Teeheee! mematar's Video Archive |
Dianeces
Minmatar Repo Industries
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Posted - 2008.02.05 19:25:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 05/02/2008 14:47:24
Originally by: Dianeces
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Bitter Amarr whine.
Instead of acting like everyone shares your bitter delusions, why don't you enlighten us with your "wisdom"? I mean, surely if its as overpowered as you seem to think, it should be blatantly obvious, right?
Of course, you really don't care about balance, do you? The crusade to "fix" Amarr at the expense of balance has been****ging up all of Eve-O for far too long. Giving TC/TE falloff bonuses isn't overpowered. Racial EWar that is exceptionally effective against one race without an effective counter is.
Because TDs affecting fall off is like a damage mod in mid slot. We dont need AC boats sticking damage mods in lows AND mids. Its bad enough with fall off rigs and you want this aswell? Not going to happen.
EDIT: yeah also, there is no real counter against ecm either that is viable to fit AND gives you a damage/range boost...so yeah this is eve, get used to it.
And TCs affecting falloff only benefits Minmatar, amirite? You're being preposterously stupid about your anti-Minmatar crusade. The fact of the matter is, TDs have been overbalanced. They now affect two attributes with one script which was the whole reason for introducing scripts in the first place. ECCM is an effective counter to ECM; the fact that ECM is binary means that you are either getting full damage or none. Just because you don't think it's effective, does not make it so.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.02.05 19:54:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Dianeces
And TCs affecting falloff only benefits Minmatar, amirite? You're being preposterously stupid about your anti-Minmatar crusade. The fact of the matter is, TDs have been overbalanced. They now affect two attributes with one script which was the whole reason for introducing scripts in the first place. ECCM is an effective counter to ECM; the fact that ECM is binary means that you are either getting full damage or none. Just because you don't think it's effective, does not make it so.
No TDs should utterly destroy turret combat ability when used on bonused ships, just like ecm totally shutting down a ships offense. ECM works on everything while TDs dont work against drones and missiles. TDs are fine with the changes. It has some downsides and some upsides. And no ECCM is not effective and is a comedy module tbpfh. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation |
Alek Row
Minmatar Silent Step
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Posted - 2008.02.05 21:04:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Niffetin
You really should verify those numbers before copy/paste.
2 Ogres + 2 Valks + 1 Warrior = 75m3 = Tempest Drone Bay last time I checked = No Spare Drones. I have no ideia where did you found the space for 5 warriors more... Maybe Valks and Ogres are having a good time in the Drone Bay.
The armor values seem wrong... unless you're taking into account the next res changes, in current Trinity build, with those fittings the Mega have 105k EHP and Tempest 101k EHP.
And I don't know if that fits... in both ships... unless you're using cpu/grid implants.
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Kery Syander
The Illuminati. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.02.05 21:47:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Dianeces
And TCs affecting falloff only benefits Minmatar, amirite? You're being preposterously stupid about your anti-Minmatar crusade. The fact of the matter is, TDs have been overbalanced. They now affect two attributes with one script which was the whole reason for introducing scripts in the first place. ECCM is an effective counter to ECM; the fact that ECM is binary means that you are either getting full damage or none. Just because you don't think it's effective, does not make it so.
No TDs should utterly destroy turret combat ability when used on bonused ships, just like ecm totally shutting down a ships offense. ECM works on everything while TDs dont work against drones and missiles. TDs are fine with the changes. It has some downsides and some upsides. And no ECCM is not effective and is a comedy module tbpfh.
Actually, ECCM roughly doubles your sensor strength. Hardly a comedy module. And Dianeces has a good point that the same script is effecting two completely different attributes. Seems awfully stupid to me.
And to get back on topic here... boost the tempest this 'boost' patch. I have zero reason to fly it over a phoon or maelstrom currently. -----
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Dianeces
Minmatar Repo Industries
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Posted - 2008.02.05 21:50:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Dianeces
And TCs affecting falloff only benefits Minmatar, amirite? You're being preposterously stupid about your anti-Minmatar crusade. The fact of the matter is, TDs have been overbalanced. They now affect two attributes with one script which was the whole reason for introducing scripts in the first place. ECCM is an effective counter to ECM; the fact that ECM is binary means that you are either getting full damage or none. Just because you don't think it's effective, does not make it so.
No TDs should utterly destroy turret combat ability when used on bonused ships, just like ecm totally shutting down a ships offense. ECM works on everything while TDs dont work against drones and missiles. TDs are fine with the changes. It has some downsides and some upsides. And no ECCM is not effective and is a comedy module tbpfh.
ECM doesn't work against F.O.F. missiles or drones. The difference would be, what exactly...? And you saying ECCM is not effective does not make it so, anymore than me saying speed isn't powerful enough and needs a good boost. You'll forgive me if I find your assertion that a module which makes a ship twice as hard to jam is "useless" utter garbage. In fact, this whole rant of yours screams of a child who won't accept logic and continues to demand instant gratification, consequences be damned. "BAAAAWWWW. Amarr have been terrible so long they deserve to be unstoppable now. I don't care what the evidence says, what I say is right and anyone who disagrees with me is a terrible person. BAAAAWWWW."
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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.02.05 22:24:00 -
[41]
That Plated-Neutron Megathron setup posted is a terrible fit and makes it seem on par to the Tempest. Use best named web/disruptor/damage control, drop a Mag Stab/Adaptive and fit 2 EANM IIs. It has far far more HP that the Tempest could possibly hope to achieve.
Tempest is not a bad ship itself and works well versus smaller ship classes, but in comparison to other battleships it is lacking. Adding a turret (and removing the missile slots) would let it have similar DPS as it's current incarnation using missiles while still having a poor tank (but winning with mobility/agility) in comparison to other BS.
Fitting Tracking Computers to midslots if they were to increase falloff is acceptable. Amarrian ships can fit one to do 100% DPS at a far greater range, if Minmatar were to fit one, they'd be doing 70-75% DPS instead of 50% at the same range they normally would be shooting at. 40km Pulse Zealot with no TCs doing 100% damage at all ranges with long range ammo, or 30km Vagabond fitting one doing 50%. Aramendel, Lyria, and Goumindong are sure to come running to prove how TCs aren't imbalanced on Amarr though.
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Masempa
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Posted - 2008.02.08 16:18:00 -
[42]
moar fall off!!
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.02.08 19:16:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Ariel Dawn
Fitting Tracking Computers to midslots if they were to increase falloff is acceptable. Amarrian ships can fit one to do 100% DPS at a far greater range, if Minmatar were to fit one, they'd be doing 70-75% DPS instead of 50% at the same range they normally would be shooting at. 40km Pulse Zealot with no TCs doing 100% damage at all ranges with long range ammo, or 24km Vagabond fitting one doing 50% (15% falloff increase, not 50%). Aramendel, Lyria, and Goumindong are sure to come running to prove how TCs aren't imbalanced on Amarr though.
Youre forgetting that your total range is opti+fall off x2. So no, you cant have something that gives you same percentage boost to fall off. Ontop of the dps increase in your typical engagement range youre also getting more max range boost with an AC. Its overpowered. Give up and stop filling this thread with nonsense that doesnt add up. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation |
Pipboy2K
Divine Retribution Divine 0rder
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Posted - 2008.02.08 19:59:00 -
[44]
at first: at opt range +2x falloff you hit NOTHING opt range: 100% chance to hit before speed, size etc opt range + 1x falloff: 50% chance to hit before speed, size etc opt range + 2x falloff: 0% chance to hit before speed, size etc (btw, the graph for the falloff is non-linear)
the tempest got a nice boost with the base resistance reductions to em on armor (if you use rep fleet emp) the size of a tempest is relative small in comparision to the other bs normal bs sized guns got a sig radius of 400m the size of the mega for example is exact 400m sig radius the size of a tempest?: 340m sig radius... that means you get hit less if someone with bs sized guns shoots at you another + for the tempest: you CAN actually hit at ranges of 20km, unlike other bs (so do pulse lasers, ofc. but amarr ships are overpowerd now anyways, they were pretty good before the coming patch) and another point: on a gank mega you dont need a adaptive nano PLATING. stop using t2 warp disruptors if you are low on cpu. and its on you, if you want some more hitpoints (dual eanm t2 + dmg control) or you go for max gank (<-- i like that) with double plate, triple t2 magstabs, 1 eanm t2, 1 dmg control t2 i support the idea of scripts for TC to improve falloff. if TD gets a scrpit for that, TCs needs them as well (as other people already said, to counter TDs)
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.08 20:27:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Goumindong on 08/02/2008 20:28:47 Double post
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.08 20:27:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Ariel Dawn Edited by: Ariel Dawn on 05/02/2008 22:39:38 That Plated-Neutron Megathron setup posted is a terrible fit and makes it seem on par to the Tempest. Use best named web/disruptor/damage control, drop a Mag Stab/Adaptive and fit 2 EANM IIs. It has far far more HP that the Tempest could possibly hope to achieve.
Not really, no. I am away from my machine atm, but both the thron and pest are going to be hovering around 120-125k EHP with a 4 slot tank with 2 eanms
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Bane Glorious
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.08 22:14:00 -
[47]
Well if I were to buff the Tempest, probably the best way to do it would be just to buff BS-sized autocannons. I really don't see much point to Dual 650mms and 800mms. The damage increase is pretty (with and without reload times included) minor, on the order of 10% from lowest to highest tier, and you lose a lot of tracking with practically no range increase at all. Large Autocannons are really just kind of..."meh".
It's been noted by some pretty sharp people out there that projectiles don't get more falloff when you move up in tiers, while lasers and hybrids do. They do get more optimal as tiers escalate, but for large autocannons that's a difference of about 1.2km between lowest and highest tiers. It does seem natural to fix that by increasing the falloff, since hey, everything else gets it, so giving mid and higher tier ACs more base falloff could always be considered as an option. Then again, I wonder if it'd be better to increase the base optimal instead, since that would keep autocannons from trespassing on Pulse Lasers' midrange turf.
I thought Tracking Disruptors affecting falloff was a good idea and said so on these forums a couple times, but I had thought they would make it a separate script from the optimal range script and give a counteracting script to Tracking Computers, though the bonus would have to be comparable to what you get from falloff rigs currently. As an aside the tracking disruptors on SiSi seem like they'd be balanced for hybrids and pulses, they look a little too powerful against ACs (-62.5% falloff with max skills on an Arbi? jeez louise).
I don't really have the time to work out all the math these days though. |
Julie Thorne
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Posted - 2008.02.08 23:33:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Because TDs affecting fall off is like a damage mod in mid slot. We dont need AC boats sticking damage mods in lows AND mids. Its bad enough with fall off rigs and you want this aswell? Not going to happen.
I guess you meant TCs not TDs.
Pulses have tracking problems. TCs with tracking mods increase tracking... That means more damage in your typical engagement range... Oh, wait... The Amarrs use damage mods in lows and mids! Shame on you. Quod licet Iovi non licet bovi?
BTW Bane has some very good points.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.02.09 01:57:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Bane Glorious
I thought Tracking Disruptors affecting falloff was a good idea and said so on these forums a couple times, but I had thought they would make it a separate script from the optimal range script and give a counteracting script to Tracking Computers
There is something called blasters in this game we call eve and blasters have both optimal and fall off that is accountable. Ive seen minmatar whines about this but the funny thing is if they had made a seperate script for fall off disruption minmatar would have whined about how it didnt affect gallente as much as it would affect minmatar. But maybe youre gallente and are trying to sneak in this little nerf on TDs before they have gone live? Its enough that we have the whole minmatar whine squad bashing TDs for pre nerf and wishing for overpowered TEs...
TDs are fine as long as they are made viable on ew ships only. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.02.09 01:59:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 09/02/2008 02:00:50 Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 09/02/2008 02:00:35
Originally by: Julie Thorne
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Because TDs affecting fall off is like a damage mod in mid slot. We dont need AC boats sticking damage mods in lows AND mids. Its bad enough with fall off rigs and you want this aswell? Not going to happen.
I guess you meant TCs not TDs.
Pulses have tracking problems. TCs with tracking mods increase tracking... That means more damage in your typical engagement range... Oh, wait... The Amarrs use damage mods in lows and mids! Shame on you. Quod licet Iovi non licet bovi?
BTW Bane has some very good points.
Amarr ew ships depend on disrupting enemies with nos and TDs. Hmm what happens if TDs dont work effectively on ACs? Maybe we can nos/neut them instead and shut down the guns? NO, BECAUSE ACs DONT USE CAP. Minmatar always likes to point out ALL the crappy sides of their weaponry but never seem to take into account that they have TURRET weapons that DONT USE CAP. Dont forget that please because its a stupidly powerful bonus.
Deal with this TD change. As said, it just needs to be tweaked so it only works good on the dedicated amarr ships. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation |
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Dianeces
Minmatar Repo Industries
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Posted - 2008.02.09 03:44:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Dianeces on 09/02/2008 03:45:06
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Bane Glorious
I thought Tracking Disruptors affecting falloff was a good idea and said so on these forums a couple times, but I had thought they would make it a separate script from the optimal range script and give a counteracting script to Tracking Computers
There is something called blasters in this game we call eve and blasters have both optimal and fall off that is accountable. Ive seen minmatar whines about this but the funny thing is if they had made a seperate script for fall off disruption minmatar would have whined about how it didnt affect gallente as much as it would affect minmatar. But maybe youre gallente and are trying to sneak in this little nerf on TDs before they have gone live? Its enough that we have the whole minmatar whine squad bashing TDs for pre nerf and wishing for overpowered TEs...
TDs are fine as long as they are made viable on ew ships only.
Oh, of course it's all the Minmatar players' fault for wanting a resonable counter. It's not your fault at all you want a totally imbalanced racial ewar. And it's not like you've ever whined about Amarr and how terrible they are and how they need to be better , or about anything you don't like and feel should be fixed. No, no, you're absolutely right. Please continue with your cognitive dissonance.
Edited for grammar.
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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.02.09 04:00:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Bane Glorious Well if I were to buff the Tempest, probably the best way to do it would be just to buff BS-sized autocannons. I really don't see much point to Dual 650mms and 800mms. The damage increase is pretty (with and without reload times included) minor, on the order of 10% from lowest to highest tier, and you lose a lot of tracking with practically no range increase at all. Large Autocannons are really just kind of..."meh".
It's been noted by some pretty sharp people out there that projectiles don't get more falloff when you move up in tiers, while lasers and hybrids do. They do get more optimal as tiers escalate, but for large autocannons that's a difference of about 1.2km between lowest and highest tiers. It does seem natural to fix that by increasing the falloff, since hey, everything else gets it, so giving mid and higher tier ACs more base falloff could always be considered as an option. Then again, I wonder if it'd be better to increase the base optimal instead, since that would keep autocannons from trespassing on Pulse Lasers' midrange turf.
I thought Tracking Disruptors affecting falloff was a good idea and said so on these forums a couple times, but I had thought they would make it a separate script from the optimal range script and give a counteracting script to Tracking Computers, though the bonus would have to be comparable to what you get from falloff rigs currently. As an aside the tracking disruptors on SiSi seem like they'd be balanced for hybrids and pulses, they look a little too powerful against ACs (-62.5% falloff with max skills on an Arbi? jeez louise).
I don't really have the time to work out all the math these days though.
Seems like a good idea regarding BS sized ACs. Fiddle with the numbers and fitting requirements to make the gap between low-mid-high more distinguishable.
Regarding plated Megathron vs Tempest, the difference is only 1500 EHP in favour of the Megathron. The Mega does 377 more DPS at optimal than the Tempest (although it doesn't have the option of heavy neuts), whilst the Tempest has the option of range (although cutting it's DPS by a significant amount due to falloff). Both can work well; but having a higher DPS also means a lot less tanking to do (ie. A ship doing 600 DPS to one tanking 500 DPS will kill it twice as fast as a ship doing 550 DPS to it, etc).
Any attempts to talk about boosting Minmatar though will be met by a ravenous horde of Amarrians on these forums though, so one must tread carefully.
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Julie Thorne
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Posted - 2008.02.09 09:33:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 09/02/2008 02:00:50 Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 09/02/2008 02:00:35
Originally by: Julie Thorne
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Because TDs affecting fall off is like a damage mod in mid slot. We dont need AC boats sticking damage mods in lows AND mids. Its bad enough with fall off rigs and you want this aswell? Not going to happen.
I guess you meant TCs not TDs.
Pulses have tracking problems. TCs with tracking mods increase tracking... That means more damage in your typical engagement range... Oh, wait... The Amarrs use damage mods in lows and mids! Shame on you. Quod licet Iovi non licet bovi?
BTW Bane has some very good points.
Amarr ew ships depend on disrupting enemies with nos and TDs. Hmm what happens if TDs dont work effectively on ACs? Maybe we can nos/neut them instead and shut down the guns? NO, BECAUSE ACs DONT USE CAP. Minmatar always likes to point out ALL the crappy sides of their weaponry but never seem to take into account that they have TURRET weapons that DONT USE CAP. Dont forget that please because its a stupidly powerful bonus.
Deal with this TD change. As said, it just needs to be tweaked so it only works good on the dedicated amarr ships.
Care to read what I wrote? Did I mention TDs? No. Then what are you talking about?
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FinrodFelagund
Rome Rare Faction
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Posted - 2008.02.09 12:05:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Ariel Dawn
Fitting Tracking Computers to midslots if they were to increase falloff is acceptable. Amarrian ships can fit one to do 100% DPS at a far greater range, if Minmatar were to fit one, they'd be doing 70-75% DPS instead of 50% at the same range they normally would be shooting at. 40km Pulse Zealot with no TCs doing 100% damage at all ranges with long range ammo, or 24km Vagabond fitting one doing 50% (15% falloff increase, not 50%). Aramendel, Lyria, and Goumindong are sure to come running to prove how TCs aren't imbalanced on Amarr though.
Youre forgetting that your total range is opti+fall off x2. So no, you cant have something that gives you same percentage boost to fall off. Ontop of the dps increase in your typical engagement range youre also getting more max range boost with an AC. Its overpowered. Give up and stop filling this thread with nonsense that doesnt add up.
Do you even know how falloff works?
At opti+falloff you do 50% to hit at opti+falloffx2 you will miss nearly every time.
Give up and stop filling this thread with nonsense that doesnt add up.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.02.09 12:46:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 09/02/2008 12:46:52
Originally by: Julie Thorne
...BTW Bane has some very good points.
....
Care to read what I wrote? Did I mention TDs? No. Then what are you talking about?
Bane doesnt have good points. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.02.09 12:48:00 -
[56]
Originally by: FinrodFelagund ...
Do you even know how falloff works?
At opti+falloff you do 50% to hit at opti+falloffx2 you will miss nearly every time.
Give up and stop filling this thread with nonsense that doesnt add up.
Yes and if you would look at a single graph about how 15% fall off TE affects the dps and range of an AC youd understand how this whole thing works aswell. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.02.09 12:52:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Dianeces
Oh, of course it's all the Minmatar players' fault for wanting a resonable counter. It's not your fault at all you want a totally imbalanced racial ewar. And it's not like you've ever whined about Amarr and how terrible they are and how they need to be better , or about anything you don't like and feel should be fixed. No, no, you're absolutely right. Please continue with your cognitive dissonance.
Edited for grammar.
Pretty much every counter proposal would give ACs too high edge above other weaponry. Dont forget that you are using capless turrets. A pilgrim needs to be able to kill your dps because he cant do it by neutralizing your cap. You cant get used to the idea that ACs finally get hit by TDs. As long as its only amarr ew ships that can viably use the new TDs this wont be a problem.
You just want it all. Cap less turrets, just as much dps as everyone else with cap turrets, all the damage types, super protection from TDs that serves as dps boost in combat range and a huge total range boost. mmmmm I think not... -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation |
Bane Glorious
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.09 17:36:00 -
[58]
For the record, I fly Amarr primarily and Minmatar when Amarr can't cut it.
Look on the test server right now and check out the new Tracking Disruptors. With the optimal range script, max skills, and on a TD boat, it reduces both optimal and falloff by 62%, which is very significant.
Of course, there are things that make that not such a big deal. Minmatar ships like the 'Pest still have missiles that aren't affected by TDs, there are still some drones available as backup, most dedicated TD ships don't have many midslots for TDs (such as the Arbi and Crucifier families), but it still does seem severe. Then again, maybe putting a TD in the fifth midslot on a Tempest will become popular, since even without a ship bonus the spec skill will reduce optimal and falloff by ~50%, which would make a huge difference against a blasterthron.
I guess we'll have to see how it pans out in the next few months, but I still think that upper-tier Large ACs (Dual 650mm and 800mm) could use a minor buff. |
Cpt Constantinus
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2008.02.09 17:48:00 -
[59]
Give the ship an aditional turret, this would be probably enough to boost it.
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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.02.09 17:59:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Dianeces
Oh, of course it's all the Minmatar players' fault for wanting a resonable counter. It's not your fault at all you want a totally imbalanced racial ewar. And it's not like you've ever whined about Amarr and how terrible they are and how they need to be better , or about anything you don't like and feel should be fixed. No, no, you're absolutely right. Please continue with your cognitive dissonance.
Edited for grammar.
Pretty much every counter proposal would give ACs too high edge above other weaponry. Dont forget that you are using capless turrets. A pilgrim needs to be able to kill your dps because he cant do it by neutralizing your cap. You cant get used to the idea that ACs finally get hit by TDs. As long as its only amarr ew ships that can viably use the new TDs this wont be a problem.
You just want it all. Cap less turrets, just as much dps as everyone else with cap turrets, all the damage types, super protection from TDs that serves as dps boost in combat range and a huge total range boost. mmmmm I think not...
It's almost like you talk about cap boosters not existing. Last time I checked Amarr ships were not restricted from fitting them.
And I'm sure a Tempest with 6km optimal 30km falloff doing 454 DPS at optimal+falloff would be completely overpowered if it got 15% more falloff from using up a valuable midslot compared to an Armageddon doing 998 DPS at 45km optimal 10km falloff. It outranges the tempest, does TWICE the DPS... but OH NOES it uses capacitor. Oh wait, I just clicked the cap booster and I keep firing. The damage difference decreases as the distance is reduced, but the 'pest just cannot compete.
And who the hell would bother fitting a Tracking Computer over a Tracking Disruptor anyway? +15 falloff on your own guns, or -50% optimal AND -50% falloff on theirs. Not a difficult decision. Super-protection from TDs, laugh, the difference between a TD vs a Pest is 15km falloff for one without and 17.25km for one with.
You just want Amarr to have it all at the expense of balance regarding all other races. I suggest you close Eve Fitting Tool and actually figure out how Minmatar fight; the large bulk of your 'facts/opinions' are so off the mark they make for worthy material to appear in comedy fitting advice threads. You appear in every single thread even mentioning the possibility of a Minmatar boost. I now believe you are an extreme roleplayer carrying out your 'minmatar are evil slaves' doctrine or whatever your kiind does, as there really is no other explanation for your contempt of all things concerning them. I suggest you find some other Amarrians to yiff with.
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Buyerr
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Posted - 2008.02.09 19:02:00 -
[61]
use the right ship for the right situation. tempest is fine for somethings bad at others.. you can't have all, get over it I declare war on stupidity |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.02.10 00:50:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Ariel Dawn
It's almost like you talk about cap boosters not existing. Last time I checked Amarr ships were not restricted from fitting them.
And I'm sure a Tempest with 6km optimal 30km falloff doing 454 DPS at optimal+falloff would be completely overpowered if it got 15% more falloff from using up a valuable midslot compared to an Armageddon doing 998 DPS at 45km optimal 10km falloff. It outranges the tempest, does TWICE the DPS... but OH NOES it uses capacitor. Oh wait, I just clicked the cap booster and I keep firing. The damage difference decreases as the distance is reduced, but the 'pest just cannot compete.
And who the hell would bother fitting a Tracking Computer over a Tracking Disruptor anyway? +15 falloff on your own guns, or -50% optimal AND -50% falloff on theirs. Not a difficult decision. Super-protection from TDs, laugh, the difference between a TD vs a Pest is 15km falloff for one without and 17.25km for one with.
You just want Amarr to have it all at the expense of balance regarding all other races. I suggest you close Eve Fitting Tool and actually figure out how Minmatar fight; the large bulk of your 'facts/opinions' are so off the mark they make for worthy material to appear in comedy fitting advice threads. You appear in every single thread even mentioning the possibility of a Minmatar boost. I now believe you are an extreme roleplayer carrying out your 'minmatar are evil slaves' doctrine or whatever your kiind does, as there really is no other explanation for your contempt of all things concerning them. I suggest you find some other Amarrians to yiff with.
Cap boosters? Yeah but you do know we have to skip the web on 3 mid slot ships if we use cap booster. Wich isnt a friggin good combo considering low tracking of pulses in sub web ranges. We pay alot for fitting cap boosters.
Have you ever pvp'd outside ganking/being ganked pvp?`Because not having to use cap for your weapons is a HUGE bonus. If you havent noticed this while using such a weapon system then you havent pvp'd for real. The tempest is versitile, the geddon isnt. Geddon does more damage. Thats balance.
And yeah, the slaves must also ofcourse be held in chains so they cannot advance against our empire. But the gods want balance and so shall it remain. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation |
Krugerrand
0utbreak
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Posted - 2008.02.10 01:17:00 -
[63]
Personally I've gone back to using Pest as my fleet ship of a Maelstrom and not down to costs.
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Maraleith
The Culture Holding Corporation
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Posted - 2008.02.10 02:58:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Ariel Dawn
It's almost like you talk about cap boosters not existing. Last time I checked Amarr ships were not restricted from fitting them.
And I'm sure a Tempest with 6km optimal 30km falloff doing 454 DPS at optimal+falloff would be completely overpowered if it got 15% more falloff from using up a valuable midslot compared to an Armageddon doing 998 DPS at 45km optimal 10km falloff. It outranges the tempest, does TWICE the DPS... but OH NOES it uses capacitor. Oh wait, I just clicked the cap booster and I keep firing. The damage difference decreases as the distance is reduced, but the 'pest just cannot compete.
And who the hell would bother fitting a Tracking Computer over a Tracking Disruptor anyway? +15 falloff on your own guns, or -50% optimal AND -50% falloff on theirs. Not a difficult decision. Super-protection from TDs, laugh, the difference between a TD vs a Pest is 15km falloff for one without and 17.25km for one with.
You just want Amarr to have it all at the expense of balance regarding all other races. I suggest you close Eve Fitting .
Cap boosters? Yeah but you do know we have to skip the web on 3 mid slot ships if we use cap booster. Wich isnt a friggin good combo considering low tracking of pulses in sub web ranges. We pay alot for fitting cap boosters.
Have you ever pvp'd outside ganking/being ganked pvp?`Because not having to use cap for your weapons is a HUGE bonus. If you havent noticed this while using such a weapon system then you havent pvp'd for real. The tempest is versitile, the geddon isnt. Geddon does more damage. Thats balance.
And yeah, the slaves must also ofcourse be held in chains so they cannot advance against our empire. But the gods want balance and so shall it remain.
The basic objection I have to this arguments is that with the Amarr boost; it is effectively being given slots compared to the tempest. To maximise its damage its has only a weak tank. The Amarr buff gives it tank and range. And what's the point of a full capacitor is your ability to effectively use it is nil. all I can do is pulse MWD and run.
As for the comparison between a tracking computer and a tracking disruptor; If I don't fit a tracking computer I am outranged by the new amarr ship. However, the amarr ship can easily defeat my tracking enhnacement.
These changes mean that the tempest's role in small gangs is over. I'd just tracking disrupt you and good luck getting any damage. As for the missiles. They would surely mean you die before I do; I mean so much dps in two slots.
The nerfing of alpha strike and the -20% to Tremor L was a mistake.
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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.02.10 03:30:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Have you ever pvp'd outside ganking/being ganked pvp?`Because not having to use cap for your weapons is a HUGE bonus. If you havent noticed this while using such a weapon system then you havent pvp'd for real. The tempest is versitile, the geddon isnt. Geddon does more damage. Thats balance.
Uh, click cap booster. Hey look, I can fire my guns! Capacitor sure is difficult to manage with a plated battleship, ayup! If you can't manage your cap and fire guns in a PvP situation, that is your problem and not mine.
Versatility in EVE unfortunately means that it performs poorly in every role compared to it's counterparts and isn't good at one. Most ships are focused within a few roles and the Tempest is outperformed by the Typhoon as a gank-platform, and by the Maelstrom as a tank-platform. Both of those ships individually can fit better tanks AND gank at the same time, despite it's supposed vulnerability. Hence, it needs a change to fit into a proper role.
Of course, unless you propose nerfing the Typhoon and Maelstrom to make the Tempest more appealing.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.02.10 03:59:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Ariel Dawn
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Have you ever pvp'd outside ganking/being ganked pvp?`Because not having to use cap for your weapons is a HUGE bonus. If you havent noticed this while using such a weapon system then you havent pvp'd for real. The tempest is versitile, the geddon isnt. Geddon does more damage. Thats balance.
Uh, click cap booster. Hey look, I can fire my guns! Capacitor sure is difficult to manage with a plated battleship, ayup! If you can't manage your cap and fire guns in a PvP situation, that is your problem and not mine.
Versatility in EVE unfortunately means that it performs poorly in every role compared to it's counterparts and isn't good at one. Most ships are focused within a few roles and the Tempest is outperformed by the Typhoon as a gank-platform, and by the Maelstrom as a tank-platform. Both of those ships individually can fit better tanks AND gank at the same time, despite it's supposed vulnerability. Hence, it needs a change to fit into a proper role.
Of course, unless you propose nerfing the Typhoon and Maelstrom to make the Tempest more appealing.
Minmatar have speed. Thats their thing. So no, you cant have the best tanking and best ganking battleships. Just like gallente, amarr and caldari dont have the fastest hac or cs...
mmmm balance... -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation |
Mila Prestoc
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Posted - 2008.02.10 04:24:00 -
[67]
The days when the AC Tempest was a good ship are long gone in my eyes. The flexibility just isnÆt there anymore; sure the slots are still there (5th mid, 2x misc highs) but the choices of what to put in them are reduced. Mids: ECM nerfed, EW nerfed, sensor boosters (nerfed with scripts). Highs: Nos nerfed, neuts poor, smartbombs (excessive cap and cpu use) or logistics, if you use missiles should just use a Typhoon imo.
ACÆs have the lowest optimal, so the damage drops off sooner than any other weapon system, but due to their falloff it doesnÆt drop as sharp as blasters. But that still means the Tempest loses damage earlier than others and has the worst slot layout for damage modules, which limits the damage dealing ability.
Yet you used to be able to break a dual rep tank in a Tempest with 1 damage module (even while around 13km outside of blasters), but with introduction of rigs and tank bonus BS itÆs almost impossible to break them even if your at optimal range without being in a gang. You just canÆt increase your damage the same way people can increase their tank so being ôflexibleö is really poor these days with the most limited target selection its ever head and the most limited fitting choices. If you want to go down the tank and gank route the other 2 minny bs both do that much better.
Just look how rigs clearly favour tanking: -3 HP rigs can add nearly 50% due to no stacking penalties on them. -3 rep amount rigs add nearly a 3rd repairer to dual rep tanks.
Then you look at the limited choices elsewhere such as weapon rigs: -Can only fit 1 ROF and 1 DMG rig (no 3rd rig at all), which only give the same as 1 damage module. -Optimal rigs donÆt suffer stacking penalty with TC/TE, no use for ACÆs. Falloff will reduce the rate you lose damage, but wonÆt increase your peak.
Nearly all the rigs have a penalty that will mean the Tempest canÆt remain flexible and will become specialized in its fitting but weaker than pretty much any other ship at the role.
I have no problem keeping the slot layout of the Tempest if they make the options for its ôflexibilityö actually legitimate, making those 2 misc highs a real benefit with that 5th mid able to aid its poor damage/tank somehow. Most of all make the rigs choices more flexible and introduce more of them without the min/max style which is not what the Tempest is meant to be about. -------------------------
Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.02.10 04:29:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Ariel Dawn
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Have you ever pvp'd outside ganking/being ganked pvp?`Because not having to use cap for your weapons is a HUGE bonus. If you havent noticed this while using such a weapon system then you havent pvp'd for real. The tempest is versitile, the geddon isnt. Geddon does more damage. Thats balance.
Uh, click cap booster. Hey look, I can fire my guns! Capacitor sure is difficult to manage with a plated battleship, ayup! If you can't manage your cap and fire guns in a PvP situation, that is your problem and not mine.
Versatility in EVE unfortunately means that it performs poorly in every role compared to it's counterparts and isn't good at one. Most ships are focused within a few roles and the Tempest is outperformed by the Typhoon as a gank-platform, and by the Maelstrom as a tank-platform. Both of those ships individually can fit better tanks AND gank at the same time, despite it's supposed vulnerability. Hence, it needs a change to fit into a proper role.
Of course, unless you propose nerfing the Typhoon and Maelstrom to make the Tempest more appealing.
Minmatar have speed. Thats their thing. So no, you cant have the best tanking and best ganking battleships. Just like gallente, amarr and caldari dont have the fastest hac or cs...
mmmm balance...
That is true. The 50-100m/s extra when MWDing is very, very difficult to take advantage of for battleships though due to their poor agility when compared to cruisers. The Tempest cannot beat a Gallente BS on a gate/station because getting within web-range would get the ship quickly torn to shreds by Blasters. The slower Amarr battleships will be hitting it with their high optimal at any range the Tempest can fire from, so it will want to be as close as possible to maximize DPS. The Tempest is out-damaged and out-tanked though so the chances of winning such an engagement are very minimal.
The balance issue is that the Minmatar advantage of speed is a very minor (and difficult to utilize) advantage at the battleship level, while smaller and more agile craft can do this. That really is the main problem, and I thank you for pointing it out.
Perhaps a reduction in the Tempest's mass or increased agility if any major changes are to be ruled out, being a bit more speedier/agile would make it a slightly better choice for fast-moving gangs of smaller ships needing support while maintaining the racial balances and differences.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.02.10 04:47:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Ariel Dawn ....
Well the tank difference between the commandships compared to sleipnir isnt that huge either and still sleip is pretty darn fast. So on BS level it might not be as noticable but its there. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.10 05:58:00 -
[70]
The tempest has 5 med slots. In the same passive plated setup that everyone else has it needs 3 since it isnt using cap to fire its guns. This means either 2 webs, or two tracking disruptors.
That will be a pretty damn strong combination against anyone, getting very close to laser ships, while making them track terribly, and staying at a longer range against blaster boats while lowering their range even farhter.
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Ravoc
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.02.10 14:24:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Goumindong The tempest has 5 med slots. In the same passive plated setup that everyone else has it needs 3 since it isnt using cap to fire its guns. This means either 2 webs, or two tracking disruptors.
That will be a pretty damn strong combination against anyone, getting very close to laser ships, while making them track terribly, and staying at a longer range against blaster boats while lowering their range even farhter.
That is quite an assumption you make there. A tempest will always fit an injector to give its already weak tank at least some survivability. And even with 2 tracking disruptors, it won't even break the other bs his tank before being blown up himself. Yes, it is that crappy. |
Mila Prestoc
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Posted - 2008.02.10 14:48:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 10/02/2008 14:50:07
Originally by: Goumindong The tempest has 5 med slots. In the same passive plated setup that everyone else has it needs 3 since it isnt using cap to fire its guns. This means either 2 webs, or two tracking disruptors.
That will be a pretty damn strong combination against anyone, getting very close to laser ships, while making them track terribly, and staying at a longer range against blaster boats while lowering their range even farhter.
Your fit means you can't fit a rep tank, so am making (according to Lyria what is our advantage at bs level ) speed/agility worse by fitting a plated tank. Come up against somone who isn't plated/armour rigged and you'll get caught and pawned. To break a dual rep tank you'd still need high damage ammo, to get close and 2 or 3 gyros and would struggle.
Thats 1 setup with limited effectiveness and no flexability like the ship used to have. -------------------------
Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.02.10 19:26:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 10/02/2008 19:25:59 Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 10/02/2008 19:25:46
Originally by: Mila Prestoc Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 10/02/2008 14:50:07
Originally by: Goumindong The tempest has 5 med slots. In the same passive plated setup that everyone else has it needs 3 since it isnt using cap to fire its guns. This means either 2 webs, or two tracking disruptors.
That will be a pretty damn strong combination against anyone, getting very close to laser ships, while making them track terribly, and staying at a longer range against blaster boats while lowering their range even farhter.
Your fit means you can't fit a rep tank, so am making (according to Lyria what is our advantage at bs level ) speed/agility worse by fitting a plated tank. Come up against somone who isn't plated/armour rigged and you'll get caught and pawned. To break a dual rep tank you'd still need high damage ammo, to get close and 2 or 3 gyros and would struggle.
Thats 1 setup with limited effectiveness and no flexability like the ship used to have.
Oh ffs stop trolling. Have you even ever friggin flown a tempest? If you meet someone that isnt plated his dual rep tank wont hold up that long. Why? Because you friggin fit a heavy neut on that damn thing. Geez. Go play the game ffs. Tempest is one of the most flexible ships there is. Stop whining. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.10 19:57:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Mila Prestoc Active tanked
Nah, you can likely still break it. Especially since that will be cap charge dependant.
The 2 web version will not have to run its MWD and will be able to keep the range of the hyp or mega or domi way under its opt+falloff.
Against Amarr it means closing and then either orbiting at close range, or loading high damage ammo
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Inir Ishtori
The Guardian Agency Guardian Federation
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Posted - 2008.02.10 20:09:00 -
[75]
somehow i don't like it how people compare a 100 million ship to 140 million ships... stay in the same price/tier category please.
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Mila Prestoc
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Posted - 2008.02.10 20:20:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 10/02/2008 20:33:37 Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 10/02/2008 20:20:16
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 10/02/2008 19:25:59 Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 10/02/2008 19:25:46Oh ffs stop trolling. Have you even ever friggin flown a tempest? If you meet someone that isnt plated his dual rep tank wont hold up that long. Why? Because you friggin fit a heavy neut on that damn thing. Geez. Go play the game ffs. Tempest is one of the most flexible ships there is. Stop whining.
I spat my drink out there, you calling someone a troll lmao. Take your own advice, stfu and stop whining thinking the sky is falling and no one else has a right to complain, its pathetic, go play the game. See I can argue like you to, way to easy than addressing the points.
I flew Pests for years, have you? Dual neuts, that it? Wow so many options for flexability, 1 mod. Lets just hope time there firing just after they hit there cap booster and reps or your neuting very little, probably less than you used to fire time.
But hay, lets just say people should just play and ignore all of there clearly layedout points with a response about 1 module.
Originally by: Goumindong Nah, you can likely still break it. Especially since that will be cap charge dependant.
The 2 web version will not have to run its MWD and will be able to keep the range of the hyp or mega or domi way under its opt+falloff.
Against Amarr it means closing and then either orbiting at close range, or loading high damage ammo
Trust me, i've shot (BS 5, full t2 fit) at dual rep Megas using hail at point blank (with 1 gyro and t2 drones) and it had to run out of cap boosters to kill it (dual rep, 3x active, dc, mfs + rep rigs).
As soon as theres a second hostile all these clever tricks don't help as well as more damage to kill sooner or a better tank to tank the extra damage, especially when your agility/speed IS NOT a real advantage at BS level. Thats what I think most minamtar want, a true minmatar style BS rather than the weaker damage/tank variations of other races. -------------------------
Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
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Ravoc
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.02.10 21:13:00 -
[77]
Lyria, if you claim to know the Tempest so well, try fighting all other bs in 1 vs 1 fights. Then tell me against which you actually won. |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.10 22:45:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Mila Prestoc
Trust me, i've shot (BS 5, full t2 fit) at dual rep Megas using hail at point blank (with 1 gyro and t2 drones) and it had to run out of cap boosters to kill it (dual rep, 3x active, dc, mfs + rep rigs).
As soon as theres a second hostile all these clever tricks don't help as well as more damage to kill sooner or a better tank to tank the extra damage, especially when your agility/speed IS NOT a real advantage at BS level. Thats what I think most minamtar want, a true minmatar style BS rather than the weaker damage/tank variations of other races.
Eh, you cant win em all, maybe he just had the right combo of hardeners and you had the wrong ammo? But how can you have "a true minmitar style BS" without obsoleting the smaller ships in the game?
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Mila Prestoc
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Posted - 2008.02.11 01:13:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 11/02/2008 01:15:27
Originally by: Goumindong Eh, you cant win em all, maybe he just had the right combo of hardeners and you had the wrong ammo? But how can you have "a true minmitar style BS" without obsoleting the smaller ships in the game?
He had typical exp+therm+kin. My point is even a Tempest with 1 gyro in falloff used to be able to break them. Now rigs have boosted tanks hugely even at optimal a Tempest can't break them.
Well the Typhoon has the best mass and speed of all BS, its nice, not substancial over the others but its there. A Tempest has the same mass as Mega and Hyperion (joint 2nd), 10m/s base over a Hyperion and 15m/s over a Megathron. It would be nice to have a turret ship with the mass/speed of a Typhoon, which is more of a drone+missile than turret ship.
As you say elsewhere, overloading (heat) favours the people who want to get closer than those who want to control range due to the 10 second cycle time of mwd and having to wait for the next cycle for your overload to activate. So 15m/s over other races base (150m/s with mwd over a mega, neither with plates/rigs) isn't much of an advantage when you have the same mass and heat favours the ship wanting to get closer.
TL;DR: I'd be interested in testing a Tempest with the mass and speed of a Typhoon (maybe slightly better), wouldn't make smaller ships obsolete would it? Would certainly makeup for all the nerfs to the Tempests performance over the years. -------------------------
Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
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Law Enforcer
Deadly Addiction
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Posted - 2008.02.11 01:52:00 -
[80]
they just buffed mimatar and amarr by lowering EM resistance and you still *****.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.11 07:40:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Mila Prestoc
As you say elsewhere, overloading (heat) favours the people who want to get closer than those who want to control range due to the 10 second cycle time of mwd and having to wait for the next cycle for your overload to activate. So 15m/s over other races base (150m/s with mwd over a mega, neither with plates/rigs) isn't much of an advantage when you have the same mass and heat favours the ship wanting to get closer.
It is when the pest is going to have 2 webs, or 2 tracking disruptors.
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Trishan
Green Men Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.02.11 07:59:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Oh ffs stop trolling. Have you even ever friggin flown a tempest? If you meet someone that isnt plated his dual rep tank wont hold up that long. Why? Because you friggin fit a heavy neut on that damn thing. Geez. Go play the game ffs. Tempest is one of the most flexible ships there is. Stop whining.
Big words from someone who either doesn't know what he's talking about or is lying out of their elbows. You can hold less cap boosters, your tank is less efficient and fights with the neuts. Even with 2 injectors you'll be going throw them at surprising speed, and the neut on armor points per sec you get aren't that good either, and on a med neut its rubbish.
Not to mention, of course, you'll have close to 0 impact on anything plated. OMG the tempest can fit neuts! To the bunker!
Have you actually flown one recently?
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Neena Valdi
Geddonites
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Posted - 2008.02.11 09:50:00 -
[83]
Tempest is fine as fleet BS. It has 2 huge advantages over rail mega in fleet: 1. Capless guns. 2. Much higher alpha strike (alpha > dps as for sniper BS).
Comparing tempest to mega is also a bit stupid, as you forgetting cap issues of mega. How long will you be able to shoot if there someone neutralizing your cap?
Anyways. You want close range battleship go for phoon or maelstrom. You want a fleet BS - tempest is your choice.
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Pattern Clarc
Quam Singulari The Church.
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Posted - 2008.02.11 11:45:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Neena Valdi Tempest is fine as fleet BS. It has 2 huge advantages over rail mega in fleet: 1. Capless guns. 2. Much higher alpha strike (alpha > dps as for sniper BS).
Comparing tempest to mega is also a bit stupid, as you forgetting cap issues of mega. How long will you be able to shoot if there someone neutralizing your cap?
Anyways. You want close range battleship go for phoon or maelstrom. You want a fleet BS - tempest is your choice.
Capless guns are nice, but I can get them on a maelstrom for more alpha, more dps, and more HP. The damage, range and tracking is why the others would be use, the tempest just doesn't come up at all in any area when compared to the alternatives. It either needs a massive damage boost, or to be retasked into another role.
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HEINZ ZERO
PsyCorp Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2008.02.11 13:04:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Pattern Clarc
Originally by: Neena Valdi Tempest is fine as fleet BS. It has 2 huge advantages over rail mega in fleet: 1. Capless guns. 2. Much higher alpha strike (alpha > dps as for sniper BS).
Comparing tempest to mega is also a bit stupid, as you forgetting cap issues of mega. How long will you be able to shoot if there someone neutralizing your cap?
Anyways. You want close range battleship go for phoon or maelstrom. You want a fleet BS - tempest is your choice.
Capless guns are nice, but I can get them on a maelstrom for more alpha, more dps, and more HP. The damage, range and tracking is why the others would be use, the tempest just doesn't come up at all in any area when compared to the alternatives. It either needs a massive damage boost, or to be retasked into another role.
the Tempest with more damage is a bad idea... for close range it might be balanced but for long range not
imagine a Tempest with 7 Turret slots.. it would do 400+ DPS with over 4000+ alpha strike
I think this would be way too much compared to other fleet ships
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.02.11 13:04:00 -
[86]
Giving a simple agility boot to the tempest would be enough I think. Would make it a good hit and bail out sniper and improve it as an anti support BS. And that would give it a proper role when compared to the maelstrom. Just a simple 15%-20% agility boost.
------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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Vlip
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.11 15:18:00 -
[87]
The Tempest is perfectly fine as it is. The only thing that we Minmatars need is a boost to artillery optimal. Now that the amarr got a battleship with optimal bonus we are left like idiots at 150km while the other races can hit at 180km (and please don't joke about shooting at opt + fallof with our already lowest DPS weapons in game).
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Gavin Darklighter
THE FINAL STAND
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Posted - 2008.02.11 18:17:00 -
[88]
Originally by: HEINZ ZERO
the Tempest with more damage is a bad idea... for close range it might be balanced but for long range not
imagine a Tempest with 7 Turret slots.. it would do 400+ DPS with over 4000+ alpha strike (with 3 gyros)
I think this would be way too much compared to other fleet ships
Don't forget that the tempest will have a very hard time fitting 7 howitzers, and it will still have terrible range and tracking. With the new Apoc, I can see more and more fleets warping in at 180km+.
Still, I don't think a 7 turret tempest is the solution. I would rather get an 8/4/7 slot layout and give the phoon the fifth mid-slot. If that would happen I would fly both ships more often.
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Valharu
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Posted - 2008.02.11 18:33:00 -
[89]
I have a question.
It seems to me on many designs, Minnis seem to have less shields and armor, but Faster and pack a Extra weapon.
How come the same philosphy isnt followed on the Battleships?
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.02.11 20:01:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Gavin Darklighter
Don't forget that the tempest will have a very hard time fitting 7 howitzers, and it will still have terrible range and tracking. With the new Apoc, I can see more and more fleets warping in at 180km+.
I think it is you that shouldnt forget fitting requirements of tachyons and compare them to a tempest fitting high alpha striking turrets that dont use cap.
And im pretty sure fleets wont warp in at 180+ now because thats what they said when rokhs were announced. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation |
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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.02.12 03:46:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon Giving a simple agility boot to the tempest would be enough I think. Would make it a good hit and bail out sniper and improve it as an anti support BS. And that would give it a proper role when compared to the maelstrom. Just a simple 15%-20% agility boost.
I think this is the only suggestion that has a chance of being implemented; the Minmatar community is fairly non-existent on these forums and will not be able to produce a sufficiently large whine thread like Amarr to receive any significant boosts.
Following the idea that Minmatar use their mobility to their advantage:
Armageddon: 16.4s align time, 156m/s, 1163m/s MWD Apocalypse: 16s align time, 144m/s, 1085m/s MWD Abaddon: 17.5s align time, 138m/s, 984m/s MWD
Scorpion: 14.9s align time, 144m/s, 1042m/s MWD Raven: 15.3s align time, 144m/s, 1070m/s MWD Rohk: 17.3s align time, 138m/s, 972m/s MWD
Dominix: 15.7s align time, 150m/s, 1148m/s MWD Megathron: 15.3s align time, 156m/s, 1213m/s MWD Hyperion: 15.3s align time, 163m/s, 1261m/s MWD
Typhoon: 14.9s align time, 188m/s, 1477m/s MWD Tempest: 15.3s align time, 175m/s, 1358m/s MWD Maelstrom: 17.1s align time, 144m/s, 1042m/s MWD
The speed difference is there; but the agility required to make use of the speed advantage is not unlike on the smaller ships. Tempest having the same agility as a Mega/Hype/Raven and *less* than a Scorpion whilst it is relying on mobility to win engagements seems to be a good area for improvement. It's superior MWD speed is incredibly difficult to take advantage of due to poor agility.
A 15-20% in agility would give it a role of a quick to align (but not an increased MWD speed), perhaps hit-and-run (as much as is possible on a BS) style combat and perhaps give it an edge to be chosen for roaming gangs over the higher DPSing/better tanking Typhoon and Maelstrom; without adding any DPS or tanking ability to the Tempest.
Follows the Minmatar doctrine and seems like a decent proposal that hopefully others can agree with.
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Ecky X
Your Assets Relocated
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Posted - 2008.02.12 10:10:00 -
[92]
/signed
Lol, always wanted to do that.
Threadsum thusfar:
Tempest has poor damage, no alpha advantage, a weak tank, and there are very few useful modules to put in its' spare slots.
Possible fixes: more damage, better tanking slot layout, or increasing speed/agility
I agree that an agility and/or speed increase might be just what the doctor ordered, since the Tempest will never be a nanoship... with, you know, tracking. It can't effectively dictate range like the Tempest of olde right now, and that made it unique.
Well, that takes care of close-range, anyway. But what about long-range? The Tempest really only has a price advantage over a Maelstrom. Do we give it more alhpa? I vote... maybe. Improve T2 sniper ammo slightly, perhaps, and we might see people using artillery again.
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Arkady Sadik
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.02.12 10:35:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Ariel Dawn the Minmatar community is fairly non-existent on these forums and will not be able to produce a sufficiently large whine thread like Amarr to receive any significant boosts.
YMMD
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Angelic Eviaran
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Posted - 2008.02.12 15:09:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Ariel Dawn the Minmatar community is fairly non-existent on these forums and will not be able to produce a sufficiently large whine thread like Amarr to receive any significant boosts.
I think the minmatar community is pretty noticable, just look at the TD discussions that they want to nerf before they even hit tranq. Theyve gonn weewee and doodood all over those threads
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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.02.12 15:44:00 -
[95]
Edited by: Ariel Dawn on 12/02/2008 15:45:03 Edited by: Ariel Dawn on 12/02/2008 15:44:33
Originally by: Angelic Eviaran
Originally by: Ariel Dawn the Minmatar community is fairly non-existent on these forums and will not be able to produce a sufficiently large whine thread like Amarr to receive any significant boosts.
I think the minmatar community is pretty noticable, just look at the TD discussions that they want to nerf before they even hit tranq. Theyve gonn weewee and doodood all over those threads
No, they want a counter to be available; as there is no way for Minmatar ships using AC to do anything about it while other races can. There is not a single mention in that thread about actually nerfing the new Tracking Disruptor changes. It is not a 'boost Minmatar' thread either.
Also, go to EVE-Search and type in 'Boost Minmatar'. You'll get a few hits here and there.
Type in 'Boost Amarr'. The number of hits you get is akin to typing 'p.orn' into google. When you read that a "12-33% damage boost is a good start" while they're still complaining that it is not enough, a facepalm is in order.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.12 20:19:00 -
[96]
No, there are ways, you just dont want to use those ways.
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Arkady Sadik
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.02.12 20:30:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Goumindong No, there are ways, you just dont want to use those ways.
The same ways exist for ships that rely on optimal. They just also have a tracking computer and tracking enhancers. But we all know that ACs are overpowered as is, they need ewar that affects them more than the poor weapons that rely on optimal. Now could we please get back to the topic of the thread, which was how the Tempest is the best battleship of them all and does need a nerf?
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.02.12 23:19:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Originally by: Goumindong No, there are ways, you just dont want to use those ways.
The same ways exist for ships that rely on optimal. They just also have a tracking computer and tracking enhancers. But we all know that ACs are overpowered as is, they need ewar that affects them more than the poor weapons that rely on optimal. Now could we please get back to the topic of the thread, which was how the Tempest is the best battleship of them all and does need a nerf?
Uhm. Same ways exist for ships that rely on optimal, ie amarr pulses? No, they arent fast enough to dictate range. Thats why amarr have the high optimal. Minmatar have the fastest ships so they CAN dictate range and thats why ACs work as they do. Facing pulses ACs need to go close and facing blasters they need to avoid getting close. Both doable because minmatar are always the fastest and most nimble ships. If you cant fly your race, dont whine and try to take it out on something that isnt related to the problem. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.12 23:59:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Originally by: Goumindong No, there are ways, you just dont want to use those ways.
The same ways exist for ships that rely on optimal. They just also have a tracking computer and tracking enhancers. But we all know that ACs are overpowered as is, they need ewar that affects them more than the poor weapons that rely on optimal. Now could we please get back to the topic of the thread, which was how the Tempest is the best battleship of them all and does need a nerf?
If you think that falloff and optimal rigs are reasonable options for blaster or laser ships you must have never flown or fit one ever, not even in EFT.
The difference between an ion blaster an neutron blaster is:
~7% DPS 20% optimal range 25% falloff
The difference between a Heavy Pulse laser or a Focused Medium Pulse laser is
15.6% dps 20% optimal range 25% falloff
The difference between a 425mm AC and a 220mm AC is
~5% dps irrelevent optimal range 0% falloff
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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.02.13 00:02:00 -
[100]
Edited by: Ariel Dawn on 13/02/2008 00:04:26
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Minmatar have the fastest ships so they CAN dictate range and thats why ACs work as they do. Facing pulses ACs need to go close and facing blasters they need to avoid getting close.
Minmatar Battleships dictating range with their 150m/s speed advantage. And there is no way to overcome the agility Goumindong unless you are suggesting taking one of the worst-tanking BS in the game and using those vital slots for inertia stabs.
Also, how my favorite two Minmatar experts who have never actually flown the ships show up in EVERY SINGLE THREAD possibly concerning a positive change for Minmatar? I like how you say Minmatar are the most nimble ships while completely ignoring the numbers. They're pretty much exactly the same in terms of agility as other races.
And, is a 15-20% agility boost to the Tempest overpowered somehow? Or should the ship continue having absolutely no role other than a cheaper Maelstrom option for fleet sniping? Maneuverability is what Minmatar is supposed to represent but does not have in agility like it's smaller ships. I cannot possibly fathom how you mouth breathers are going to argue against this. It's a racial thing, they should be the most agile by default, no modules required.
PS: This is not a TC/TE thread. Go troll in the appropriate thread please.
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Mila Prestoc
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Posted - 2008.02.13 00:05:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Ariel Dawn
Originally by: Kagura Nikon Giving a simple agility boot to the tempest would be enough I think. Would make it a good hit and bail out sniper and improve it as an anti support BS. And that would give it a proper role when compared to the maelstrom. Just a simple 15%-20% agility boost.
data stuff
The speed difference is there; but the agility required to make use of the speed advantage is not unlike on the smaller ships. Tempest having the same agility as a Mega/Hype/Raven and *less* than a Scorpion whilst it is relying on mobility to win engagements seems to be a good area for improvement. It's superior MWD speed is incredibly difficult to take advantage of due to poor agility.
A 15-20% in agility would give it a role of a quick to align (but not an increased MWD speed), perhaps hit-and-run (as much as is possible on a BS) style combat and perhaps give it an edge to be chosen for roaming gangs over the higher DPSing/better tanking Typhoon and Maelstrom; without adding any DPS or tanking ability to the Tempest.
Follows the Minmatar doctrine and seems like a decent proposal that hopefully others can agree with.
Aye pretty much my thoughts although a bit lower mass and improved agility to up the mwd speed wouldn't hurt, especially with heat where you could spend anywhere upto 10 seconds before your mwd cycles to overload it.
I'd position it with slightly better agility than a Typhoon and with 1425-1450m/s. So slightly more agile but slightly slower.
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Uhm. Same ways exist for ships that rely on optimal, ie amarr pulses? No, they arent fast enough to dictate range. Thats why amarr have the high optimal. Minmatar have the fastest ships so they CAN dictate range and thats why ACs work as they do. Facing pulses ACs need to go close and facing blasters they need to avoid getting close. Both doable because minmatar are always the fastest and most nimble ships. If you cant fly your race, dont whine and try to take it out on something that isnt related to the problem.
I think his point was you can modify optimal/tracking using rigs like falloff but also can use tracking computers / enhancers. But this is not the tracking computer/enhancer/disruptor topic. -------------------------
Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.13 00:16:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Ariel Dawn
PS: This is not a TC/TE thread. Go troll in the appropriate thread please.
Dont bring it up if you dont want to discuss it.
The 5 meds on the tempest are important to its balance. Agility is probably a decent idea.
Quote:
PPS: Don't forget the fact that the largest tier Minmatar AC per size does less DPS than the smallest tier Laser or Blaster in the same size category Goumindong. That might have some reason why Minmatar guns are easier to fit. Words bolded for effect.
Oh hey, arent you just a peachy little ball of mis-information today. Put the damage in context and it changes significantly.
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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.02.13 00:30:00 -
[103]
Edited by: Ariel Dawn on 13/02/2008 00:30:22
Originally by: Goumindong
PPS: Don't forget the fact that the largest tier Minmatar AC per size does less DPS than the smallest tier Laser or Blaster in the same size category Goumindong. That might have some reason why Minmatar guns are easier to fit. Words bolded for effect.
Oh hey, arent you just a peachy little ball of mis-information today. Put the damage in context and it changes significantly.
Yea. Minmatar ships with dual-damage (or single-damage) bonuses fitting their highest DPS guns do the same DPS as single-damage + tank bonus Amarr/Gallente ships fitting their lowest guns; and less in some cases. Unfortunately for the Tempest/Typhoon/Vaga/Cane/Sleipnir/etc, fitting the largest Autocannons requires fitting mods if the rest of the fit is to be standard, so you actually have to down-grade your guns. The guns which don't even match the lowest tier of other races, dropping down another tier.
There we go, context. Maybe there's a reason why other races can't fit their biggest guns so easily, hrm? Might even be because of balance!
Also still in shock you agreed with me about increasing agility being a good idea.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.02.13 00:34:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Ariel Dawn
Also still in shock you agreed with me about increasing agility being a good idea.
You should trust goumindong, he has good ideas and calculates everything so its balanced. I think agility wouldnt hurt it, it kinda goes along with the versitility of the tempest imo. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.13 00:56:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Ariel Dawn
Yea. Minmatar ships with dual-damage (or single-damage) bonuses fitting their highest DPS guns do the same DPS as single-damage + tank bonus Amarr/Gallente ships fitting their lowest guns;
With no damage bonus, loading long range ammo: base damage bonuses of 425 ACs, electron blasters, and focused medium Pulses
Electron: 34 FMP: 29 425mm: 30
Damage modification against standard amarr racial armor tank due to damage types[disadvantaging Minmitar more than usual] with no plates and an eanm/eanm/dc fitting[a relativly weak tank]
Electron: Base FMP: - about 12% 425: -2%
Quote: Unfortunately for the Tempest/Typhoon/Vaga/Cane/Sleipnir/etc, fitting the largest Autocannons requires fitting mods if the rest of the fit is to be standard, so you actually have to down-grade your guns
You can fit an mwd, 2 1600rts, 6 800mm ACs, 2 siege launcher IIs and as many 1 PG mods as you want on a tempest without any fitting mods with AWU 4
You can fit a MWD, xl-booster II, 7 425 ACs, and 2 falloff mods with AWU 4 and rigging 5.
You cant fit the phoon with 800mm ACs but hey you can fit 650s and 4 siege launchers with 2 plates an a t2 MWD at AWU 4.
You can fit a Cane with 6 425 ACs, 2 assault launchers, an MWD and a god damn 1600rt plate with AWU 4.[that is 704 DPS with 53k EHP before rigs with 2 damage mods and hail]
You have got to be ******* kidding me.
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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.02.13 01:12:00 -
[106]
Now look at the DPS with AM/Multi/EMP in that comparison. Try a tri-hardened tank instead of EANMs. Try an unplated, active tanking Minmatar setup. A close-range plated Minmatard ship can be kited all day long by Amarr and out-DPSed/out-Tanked at a Gallente's favorite range. And neuts are far, far more useful than the extra unbonused missile DPS on all of these ships, especially with the popularity of cap-unstable nano-ships and being able to shut down a non-Minmatar's weapons.
Your setups look fine from the vantage point of someone who doesn't fly Minmatar; not very good in practice.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.13 01:22:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Ariel Dawn Now look at the DPS with AM/Multi/EMP in that comparison. Try a tri-hardened tank instead of EANMs.
Since the AC user will be using Hail and not EMP if they are smart they gain about 1.3% but lose tracking in said situation.
No sense comparing un-opimized tanks. Optimized tanks fit plates, extenders and omni tanking modules.
Nothing wrong with plating minmitar ships.
Neuts are far less valuable than more DPS usually is.
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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.02.13 01:34:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 13/02/2008 01:29:48
Originally by: Ariel Dawn Now look at the DPS with AM/Multi/EMP in that comparison. Try a tri-hardened tank instead of EANMs.
Since the AC user will be using Hail and not EMP if they are smart they gain about 1.3% but lose tracking in said situation.
No sense comparing un-opimized tanks. Optimized tanks fit plates, extenders and omni tanking modules.
Nothing wrong with plating minmitar ships.
Neuts are far less valuable than more DPS usually is.
ed: and if you arent fitting plates and XL-boosters and your highest tier weapons and launchers and mwds then what in the god damn hell are you fitting on your ships to not be able to fit your top tier weapons?
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.13 01:43:00 -
[109]
Edited by: Goumindong on 13/02/2008 01:46:23 12 seconds is way way way to fast. An unplated Harbinger alligns in 11.4 second. Plated its 13.8 seconds.
Try 14.5 second allign at the lowest.
ed: Nice dodge of the issue when someone proves you wrong.
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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.02.13 02:27:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 13/02/2008 01:46:23 12 seconds is way way way to fast. An unplated Harbinger alligns in 11.4 second. Plated its 13.8 seconds.
Try 14.5 second allign at the lowest.
ed: Nice dodge of the issue when someone proves you wrong.
I'm not dodging the issue, I'm waiting until you figure out yourself how you don't know how to fit or fly Minmatar ships. Really nothing else that can be done nor any reason to bother replying to your posts. And you haven't proved me wrong on anything thus far, only provided poor evidence based on faulty reasoning regarding a race you have no experience flying.
14.5 seconds is barely faster than a Scorpion and is not enough to make it worth taking over a Typhoon when it deals significantly less DPS. Your Harbinger's align speed is irrelevant in giving the Tempest a defining role in the Battleship class. The agility advantage needs to be noticeable to give pilots any incentive whatsoever to chose a Tempest; it would not work as a nano-ship regardless. Being able to take advantage of your speed is very very difficult with Battleships; a 5% agility boost is not sufficient.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.13 02:36:00 -
[111]
Well then how in the world are you failing to fit these mods when such fits with powergrid intensive mods seem to fit just fine?
Just what uber builds are so powergrid intensive that you cant fit them?
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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.02.13 02:57:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 13/02/2008 02:37:59 Well then how in the world are you failing to fit these mods when such fits with powergrid intensive mods seem to fit just fine?
Just what builds as you are "supposed to" fly them are so powergrid intensive that you cant fit them?
1x Prototype Cloaking Device I 1x 'Malkuth' Rocket Launcher I (Defender Missiles) 2x Amarr Navy Tachyon Beam Laser (Radio L)
1x 10mn MicroWarpdrive II 1x 10mn Afterburner I 2x ECCM - Omni I
1x Large Armor Repairer II 1x Tracking Enhancer I 6x 50mm Rolled Tungsten Plate
3x TP-300 Drones (for painting)
Fly with Slave set and make sure to PUSH IT TO THE LIMITÖ (overheat).
Obviously.
Your inability to think outside of plated setups is none of my concern. Nor is your endless trolling of any threads mentioning a Minmatar boost. Please feel free to discuss Minmatar ships with me in a few months; should provide sufficient time to train them properly and me having trained for Amarr. Then we can get together and grouphug with other Amarrian players shouting how awesome and/or nerfed we are. It will be great!
Until then; XOXO
AD
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.13 02:58:00 -
[113]
No really, what are the fits?
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Mila Prestoc
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Posted - 2008.02.13 03:17:00 -
[114]
Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 13/02/2008 03:19:02 Just been messing about on test server before bed with:
6x Dual 425mm T2, 2x Neuts MWD T2, WD T2, Web, Heavy Cap Booster T2, TD LAR T2, 1600 RT, 2x EANM T2, DC T2, Gyro T2 3x Falloff.
Still don't like its general mobility even with just 1 plate and no armour rigs. Does alright against other heavy plated + armour rigged ships as the difference between the ships is widdened (where goums keeps them constant) but against anything with a serious tank your damage (even with neuts) isn't enough to break them. Just wish it was a little bit lighter, quicker and agile like the Phoon.
If damage+rof rig combination gave more than 1 damage module worth of dps increase it would be nice (say 75% of what 2 damage mods give) along with being able to fit a low calibration 3rd rig so ROF+DMG+Falloff combination was possible. -------------------------
Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
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Maraleith
The Culture Holding Corporation
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Posted - 2008.02.13 07:39:00 -
[115]
How about an agility and a speed adjustment plus a slot layout change; drop a non-turret high for a mid plus 2 lows?
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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.02.13 16:22:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Maraleith How about an agility and a speed adjustment plus a slot layout change; drop a non-turret high for a mid plus 2 lows?
Adding three slots at the cost of one utility high would imbalance the ship tremendously and has no chance of implementation, as well as perform similar roles to the Typhoon/Tempest. It's speed is already fine in comparison to other Battleships, it's just the agility that is severely lacking to be able to make use of it.
Also while we're at it, Typhoon/Huginn/Bellicose should get +1 Missile/+1 Turret slot.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.13 16:47:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Ariel Dawn
Also while we're at it, Typhoon/Huginn/Bellicose should get +1 Missile/+1 Turret slot.
The Phoon, Huginn, and Bellicose are fine
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Minsuki
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Posted - 2008.02.14 06:35:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Goumindong Bellicose [is] fine
...what?
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Maraleith
The Culture Holding Corporation
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Posted - 2008.02.14 10:57:00 -
[119]
To claim the Bellicose with its UBER ewar 7.5% bonus to target painter effectiveness per skill level is a "fine" ship simply beggars belief. If that was a tracking link bonus then I would listen to you. With a tracking link bonus the Bellicose becomes a wonderful support ship with very useful anti-support capability. But that's what a logistics ships are for isn't it?
The basic issue remains, the Amarr love requires a Minmatar response; otherwise the sniper Tempest will be outranged and outtanked.
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Arkady Sadik
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.02.14 11:12:00 -
[120]
Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 14/02/2008 11:13:34 (Sorry to detract the thread again)
Originally by: Maraleith To claim the Bellicose with its UBER ewar 7.5% bonus to target painter effectiveness per skill level is a "fine" ship simply beggars belief. If that was a tracking link bonus then I would listen to you. With a tracking link bonus the Bellicose becomes a wonderful support ship with very useful anti-support capability. But that's what a logistics ships are for isn't it?
I guess you could argue that the Bellicose in itself is quite in line with the other ewar cruisers, and if TPs would be useful, the Bellicose would be as well - so in a sense, the ship is fine, what is wrong are target painters. (Of course it requires some kind of lawyer's doubletalk to sum this up with "the bellicose is fine", but nothing new here)
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Seishomaru
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Posted - 2008.02.14 14:15:00 -
[121]
Bump for tempest agility boost!!!! It deserves it!
Also plating minmatar ships except the typhoon is tupid since throw away the only advantage minmatar have that is agility and speed (that in BS calss is almost non present)
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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.02.14 14:24:00 -
[122]
The Bellicose is pretty much the only ship in EVE that is labeled a comedy option, even if you fit it with an actual intent to use it. Saying it is fine... take a look at how easy it is to fit, then it's bonuses, etc.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.14 15:54:00 -
[123]
Edited by: Goumindong on 14/02/2008 15:56:35
Originally by: Ariel Dawn The Bellicose is pretty much the only ship in EVE that is labeled a comedy option, even if you fit it with an actual intent to use it. Saying it is fine... take a look at how easy it is to fit, then it's bonuses, etc.
This is false, the bellicose can be fit to be used just fine. Its very similar to a stabber, a tad bit slower, but more DPS and more non-tracking based DPS[it can also run a huge buffer tank with 2 LSEs, or a perma-MWD setup at 2.5-3km/s]
Its about as strong as the Arbitrator, about the same DPS but its a lot faster. Trades that for the versatility of the Arbis drone bay and ewar.
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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.02.14 16:55:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 14/02/2008 15:56:35
Originally by: Ariel Dawn The Bellicose is pretty much the only ship in EVE that is labeled a comedy option, even if you fit it with an actual intent to use it. Saying it is fine... take a look at how easy it is to fit, then it's bonuses, etc.
This is false, the bellicose can be fit to be used just fine. Its very similar to a stabber, a tad bit slower, but more DPS and more non-tracking based DPS[it can also run a huge buffer tank with 2 LSEs, or a perma-MWD setup at 2.5-3km/s]
Its about as strong as the Arbitrator, about the same DPS but its a lot faster. Trades that for the versatility of the Arbis drone bay and ewar.
The only reply I can think of to this is:
.....................................__................................................ .............................,-~*`»lllllll`*~,.......................................... .......................,-~*`lllllllllllllllllllllllllll»`*-,.................................... ..................,-~*llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll*-,.................................. ...............,-*llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll.\................................. .............;*`lllllllllllllllllllllllllll,-~*~-,llllllllllllllllllll\................................ ..............\lllllllllllllllllllllllllll/.........\;;;;llllllllllll,-`~-,........................... ...............\lllllllllllllllllllll,-*...........`~-~-,...(.(»`*,`,.......................... ................\llllllllllll,-~*.....................)_-\..*`*;..).......................... .................\,-*`»,*`)............,-~*`~................/..................... ..................|/.../.../~,......-~*,-~*`;................/.\.................. ................./.../.../.../..,-,..*~,.`*~*................*...\................. ................|.../.../.../.*`...\...........................)....)»`~,.................. ................|./.../..../.......)......,.)`*~-,............/....|..)...`~-,............. ..............././.../...,*`-,.....`-,...*`....,---......\..../...../..|.........»```*~-,,,, ...............(..........)`*~-,....`*`.,-~*.,-*......|.../..../.../............\........ ................*-,.......`*-,...`~,..``.,,,-*..........|.,*...,*...|..............\........ ...................*,.........`-,...)-,..............,-*`...,-*....(`-,............\....... ......................f`-,.........`-,/...*-,___,,-~*....,-*......|...`-,..........\........
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.14 18:04:00 -
[125]
Edited by: Goumindong on 14/02/2008 18:04:32 Eh, not my fault if you wont see its advantages.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.02.14 18:09:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Ariel Dawn The Bellicose is pretty much the only ship in EVE that is labeled a comedy option, even if you fit it with an actual intent to use it. Saying it is fine... take a look at how easy it is to fit, then it's bonuses, etc.
There is nothing really wrong with the bellicose as goumindong says. Its more that stabber and rupture are so good that no one cares much for the bellicose. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation |
Bane Glorious
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.14 18:16:00 -
[127]
The only problem with the Bellicose is that 19 times out of 20 target painters aren't worth using. The ship itself doesn't have any problems. |
Vanessa Vale
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Posted - 2008.02.14 18:50:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Ariel Dawn The Bellicose is pretty much the only ship in EVE that is labeled a comedy option, even if you fit it with an actual intent to use it. Saying it is fine... take a look at how easy it is to fit, then it's bonuses, etc.
There is nothing really wrong with the bellicose as goumindong says. Its more that stabber and rupture are so good that no one cares much for the bellicose.
Ah, the stabber is SO good that I have a rigged one gathering dust for months now. Why would you ever think of flying one with heat all around and no falloff bonuses?
That leaves the rupture as the only viable cruiser flying.
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Vanessa Vale
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Posted - 2008.02.14 18:52:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 14/02/2008 18:04:32 Eh, not my fault if you wont see its advantages.
Which of them is it? Never being primaried, or fast easy insurance payouts?
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Vanessa Vale
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Posted - 2008.02.14 18:58:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Seishomaru Bump for tempest agility boost!!!! It deserves it!
Also plating minmatar ships except the typhoon is tupid since throw away the only advantage minmatar have that is agility and speed (that in BS calss is almost non present)
All things said, the agility bonus is probably not enough to make much of a difference. Doesn't have any impact vs droneships, doesn't have any impact vs missile spammers either, doesn't probably have any impact vs pulses either, and you'll end up webbed by tacklers anyway and you won't be able to leverage your ship bonus unlike your targets.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.02.14 19:41:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Vanessa Vale
Ah, the stabber is SO good that I have a rigged one gathering dust for months now. Why would you ever think of flying one with heat all around and no falloff bonuses?
That leaves the rupture as the only viable cruiser flying.
Uhm you not happy with the stabber? LoL -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.14 19:46:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Vanessa Vale
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Ariel Dawn The Bellicose is pretty much the only ship in EVE that is labeled a comedy option, even if you fit it with an actual intent to use it. Saying it is fine... take a look at how easy it is to fit, then it's bonuses, etc.
There is nothing really wrong with the bellicose as goumindong says. Its more that stabber and rupture are so good that no one cares much for the bellicose.
Ah, the stabber is SO good that I have a rigged one gathering dust for months now. Why would you ever think of flying one with heat all around and no falloff bonuses?
That leaves the rupture as the only viable cruiser flying.
The stabber and the rupture are different types of ships. But stabbers are excellent heavy tacklers. They are essentially super-frigates. Bellicoses are similar, but either perma run the mwd or have a really huge buffer for tackling.
That you don't have a use for them doesn't mean that others don't have a use for them.
Stabbers are cheap vagabonds and Bellicoses slightly different Stabbers. Yea, vagabonds are better, but they also require more skills, cost a whole bunch more, and are the "super-specialized" version of the ship.
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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.02.14 21:45:00 -
[133]
The problem with the Bellicose is that Target Painters are pretty terrible in comparison to other ewar, the Stabber does a better job at being a Stabber than the Bellicose does. It doesn't really have a use, unless for some reason the only thing you have access to is Bellicoses.
Target Painters are another issue entirely though and should warrant their own discussion thread.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.02.14 21:52:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Ariel Dawn The problem with the Bellicose is that Target Painters are pretty terrible in comparison to other ewar, the Stabber does a better job at being a Stabber than the Bellicose does. It doesn't really have a use, unless for some reason the only thing you have access to is Bellicoses.
Target Painters are another issue entirely though and should warrant their own discussion thread.
Have you even tried to fly a bellicose or are you a leaf caught up in the wind? -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation |
Siddy
Minmatar Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.02.14 23:35:00 -
[135]
I am little diapointed abaut tempest now, i need it to be more agile and more light or faster.
Signed
siddy
Eves No1 Tempest advocate
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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.02.14 23:43:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Ariel Dawn The problem with the Bellicose is that Target Painters are pretty terrible in comparison to other ewar, the Stabber does a better job at being a Stabber than the Bellicose does. It doesn't really have a use, unless for some reason the only thing you have access to is Bellicoses.
Target Painters are another issue entirely though and should warrant their own discussion thread.
Have you even tried to fly a bellicose or are you a leaf caught up in the wind?
I've flown every Minmatar ship asides from the Vargur and Naglfar, Hel and Ragnarok. From what I can tell, you haven't even flown a Rifter. I know what the Bellicose is capable of and compared to the Stabber/Rupture it has no use unlike an Arbitrator/Celestis(prenerf)/Blackbird asides from messing around with a Phoenix.
And this thread, again, is not concerning any of that. Tempest needing a boost is the issue at hand.
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Rogerano
Minmatar Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.02.15 04:16:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Minmatar have speed. Thats their thing. So no, you cant have the best tanking and best ganking battleships. Just like gallente, amarr and caldari dont have the fastest hac or cs...
mmmm balance...
This statement is super-doopa-dumb and shows a complete lack of forethought. When has speed ever been a factor for battleships (after the nano-nerf)? Before you answer "nano-phoon" please try to recall that we are not discussing the phoon here. Tempest. Does. Not. Speed. Tank. --- Not happy with something in EVE? An emo whine will doubtless help your cause. |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.15 04:40:00 -
[138]
Range dictation.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.02.15 04:57:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Goumindong Range dictation.
But Im guessing he doesnt know what that means judging by his response, wich is pretty lol since he seems to be minmatar and prolly flies minmatar ships. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation |
Ort Lofthus
Wildlands Heavy Technologies FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.02.15 08:25:00 -
[140]
I am thinking the way to fix the tempest is to make midslots useful again. It was always sort of a gunboat that relied more on untility highs and mids instead of the tanks you see on other gunboats. It actually has a lot to gain from the new TDs. A pair of em will knock down a target's gun range by about 70% with max skills, which is enough to knock a neutron mega with null down to 8km optimal+falloff.
The only thing I would change would be to make the tracking computer range script for falloff, so autocannons could have a non-rig method of increasing falloff. Keeping the falloff boost only on a midslot module means that the tempest would have unique to bring to the table, as it is better able to spend midslots on tracking computers, and thus falloff. I am not sure about just making an optimal+falloff script for the TC because it would result in an increase in artillery ranges. I know for certain that a falloff enhancing tracking enhancer would be pretty overpowered, and find a place on many of my auto-boats.
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Vanessa Vale
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Posted - 2008.02.15 10:26:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Goumindong But stabbers are excellent heavy tacklers. They are essentially super-frigates. Bellicoses are similar, but either perma run the mwd or have a really huge buffer for tackling.
Is a super frigate a kind of under-performing cruiser? Cause I can slap some speed mods on the lows and end up with a slightly slower stabber with a damage bonus.
Originally by: Goumindong
Stabbers are cheap vagabonds and Bellicoses slightly different Stabbers.
Another under-performing cruiser then? Anyway, no, if it was a cheap vagabond it'd have a falloff bonus which it doesn't. And as such it can't kill **** because it'll get webbed in a heartbeat or do no dps at all.
It would seem that once a ship is useless it gets turned into a tackler.
Originally by: Goumindong
Yea, vagabonds are better, but they also require more skills, cost a whole bunch more, and are the "super-specialized" version of the ship.
Obviously a vagabond is not a tackler, it's a hit and run ship. Just like a stabber or the bellicose aren't tacklers. But yes, once our ships are pussified enough that's the only thing you can do.
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Vanessa Vale
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Posted - 2008.02.15 10:29:00 -
[142]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Goumindong Range dictation.
But Im guessing he doesnt know what that means judging by his response, wich is pretty lol since he seems to be minmatar and prolly flies minmatar ships.
And I know that he knows what he's talking about because he probably flies minmatar ships, unlike you.
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Theron Gyrow
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.02.15 11:07:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Goumindong Range dictation.
How do you dictate range even in 1BS-vs-1BS in a Tempest now that overloading is available? Keep your MWD always overloaded and hope it won't blow up before the fight is over?
And of course, against any gang that includes at least one cruiser or smaller with a webber... Forget it. -- Gradient forum |
Maraleith
The Culture Holding Corporation
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Posted - 2008.02.15 12:23:00 -
[144]
How about we simply adjust the tracking of large artillery and autocannons upwards, adjust agility upwards and speed slightly upwards? The improved tracking might remove the need for a rack of tracking computers and tracking enhancers to reach the same range as the revised Amarr BS. It won't stop the basic issue of the Tempest being outtanked and outranged by the revised Amarr ship but its a start.
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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.02.15 13:24:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Originally by: Goumindong Range dictation.
How do you dictate range even in 1BS-vs-1BS in a Tempest now that overloading is available? Keep your MWD always overloaded and hope it won't blow up before the fight is over?
And of course, against any gang that includes at least one cruiser or smaller with a webber... Forget it.
Aye, this is very true as well. If they overload their MWD and your cycle just started, your overload can come 7+ seconds later than theirs will. Mobility advantages on the BS level are incredibly difficult to take advantage of, unlike BC size and below, mainly due to agility issues.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.02.15 14:53:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Vanessa Vale
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Goumindong Range dictation.
But Im guessing he doesnt know what that means judging by his response, wich is pretty lol since he seems to be minmatar and prolly flies minmatar ships.
And I know that he knows what he's talking about because he probably flies minmatar ships, unlike you.
He does? Great flame bait. Go back to your cave vanessa. You havent made a single valid point in all these threads. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.02.15 14:55:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Ariel Dawn
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Originally by: Goumindong Range dictation.
How do you dictate range even in 1BS-vs-1BS in a Tempest now that overloading is available? Keep your MWD always overloaded and hope it won't blow up before the fight is over?
And of course, against any gang that includes at least one cruiser or smaller with a webber... Forget it.
Aye, this is very true as well. If they overload their MWD and your cycle just started, your overload can come 7+ seconds later than theirs will. Mobility advantages on the BS level are incredibly difficult to take advantage of, unlike BC size and below, mainly due to agility issues.
No its not difficult. So it doesnt work 100% of times. So sometimes your overheat MIGHT come a bit too late. Oh noes its not 100% fail proof so I cant play like this. Oh noes. Its not like you have to orbit another battleship, its just enough that you can be a tiny bit faster to keep the range. Seriously ariel are you even playing this game or no? -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.15 15:59:00 -
[148]
Edited by: Goumindong on 15/02/2008 16:01:13
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Originally by: Goumindong Range dictation.
How do you dictate range even in 1BS-vs-1BS in a Tempest now that overloading is available? Keep your MWD always overloaded and hope it won't blow up before the fight is over?
And of course, against any gang that includes at least one cruiser or smaller with a webber... Forget it.
No, play keep away with unoverloaded MWD and then overload your web and activate it as soon as he hits 13km. Fly manually and orbit at about 9.5km if you get him slow enough. As he bursts his mwd, keep bursting yours.
He will probably close eventually, but its unlikely he will do so before you have done enough damage to bring him down.
If you get caught, switch to hail and start ganking.
Oh, and shoot the cruiser/frigate first. If that means the mega gets close enough, overload your mwd and burn away with the TD on him. With the TD you don't need to keep him out of web range, just out of short web range.
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Vanessa Vale
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Posted - 2008.02.15 19:27:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Vanessa Vale And I know that he knows what he's talking about because he probably flies minmatar ships, unlike you.
He does? Great flame bait. Go back to your cave vanessa. You havent made a single valid point in all these threads.
Hey! Come back! You forgot the content in your post!
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KD.Fluffy
The Avalon Foundation
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Posted - 2008.02.15 21:29:00 -
[150]
the tempest is FINE as it is. your right when you say it may not be the best bs in game, but who cares. Eve is about ships being different. The tempest can hit very high dps, and be selective with damage types. Not sure how their is a problem with that.
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KD.Fluffy
The Avalon Foundation
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Posted - 2008.02.15 21:32:00 -
[151]
Edited by: KD.Fluffy on 15/02/2008 21:35:55
Originally by: Vanessa Vale
Originally by: Goumindong But stabbers are excellent heavy tacklers. They are essentially super-frigates. Bellicoses are similar, but either perma run the mwd or have a really huge buffer for tackling.
Is a super frigate a kind of under-performing cruiser? Cause I can slap some speed mods on the lows and end up with a slightly slower stabber with a damage bonus.
Originally by: Goumindong
Stabbers are cheap vagabonds and Bellicoses slightly different Stabbers.
Another under-performing cruiser then? Anyway, no, if it was a cheap vagabond it'd have a falloff bonus which it doesn't. And as such it can't kill **** because it'll get webbed in a heartbeat or do no dps at all.
It would seem that once a ship is useless it gets turned into a tackler.
Originally by: Goumindong
Yea, vagabonds are better, but they also require more skills, cost a whole bunch more, and are the "super-specialized" version of the ship.
Obviously a vagabond is not a tackler, it's a hit and run ship. Just like a stabber or the bellicose aren't tacklers. But yes, once our ships are pussified enough that's the only thing you can do.
you've gotta be kidding me. Minmatar arguably have the best cruisers in the game by far. Peoples whining never ceases to amaze me.
Quote: All things said, the agility bonus is probably not enough to make much of a difference. Doesn't have any impact vs droneships, doesn't have any impact vs missile spammers either, doesn't probably have any impact vs pulses either, and you'll end up webbed by tacklers anyway and you won't be able to leverage your ship bonus unlike your targets.
Since when has it been a problem when a well rounded gang takes someone down?.... YOu can't kill the missle spammer? use your agility to get away. can't kill the pulse? do the same thing. They have a tackler? Well you got killed by a gang, and thats fair.
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KD.Fluffy
The Avalon Foundation
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Posted - 2008.02.15 21:38:00 -
[152]
Originally by: Rogerano
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Minmatar have speed. Thats their thing. So no, you cant have the best tanking and best ganking battleships. Just like gallente, amarr and caldari dont have the fastest hac or cs...
mmmm balance...
This statement is super-doopa-dumb and shows a complete lack of forethought. When has speed ever been a factor for battleships (after the nano-nerf)? Before you answer "nano-phoon" please try to recall that we are not discussing the phoon here. Tempest. Does. Not. Speed. Tank.
Yes minmatar have the fastest ships. That plays a huge factor with the smaller ships, and not so much with the bs. You don't get the best of both worlds. Sorry. Even with that said, minmatar bs are great
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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.02.15 22:40:00 -
[153]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Ariel Dawn
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Originally by: Goumindong Range dictation.
How do you dictate range even in 1BS-vs-1BS in a Tempest now that overloading is available? Keep your MWD always overloaded and hope it won't blow up before the fight is over?
And of course, against any gang that includes at least one cruiser or smaller with a webber... Forget it.
Aye, this is very true as well. If they overload their MWD and your cycle just started, your overload can come 7+ seconds later than theirs will. Mobility advantages on the BS level are incredibly difficult to take advantage of, unlike BC size and below, mainly due to agility issues.
No its not difficult. So it doesnt work 100% of times. So sometimes your overheat MIGHT come a bit too late. Oh noes its not 100% fail proof so I cant play like this. Oh noes. Its not like you have to orbit another battleship, its just enough that you can be a tiny bit faster to keep the range. Seriously ariel are you even playing this game or no?
Dear Lyria.
Minmatar do not have the DPS output or Tank of other ships in the battleship size. The Minmatar advantage is mobility. The Tempest does not have this advantage, and has neither excellent DPS or tank. The Typhoon does more DPS and tanks better whilst being faster/more maneuverable. The Maelstrom does more DPS and tanks very very well. The Tempest has no role when faced with the other two BS choices.
Agility is vital to maintaining range. 'Not difficult' is actually impossible on the BS-scale due to Thermodynamics and any BS pilot worth their salt will have no difficulty catching a Tempest due to game mechanics, even if the Tempest is piloted by a perfect robot. The enemy BS starts speeding up, and the Minmatar pilot responds likewise. The poor agility/lag delay means a very tiny window of 1-2km (overloaded webs, remember) to not get caught. Oh, and if they are overload-MWDing to you, you're screwed if you hadn't overloaded your own MWD beforehand since they'll be going a good deal faster than you can, and have a head start on you going in the right direction.
An agility increase does not make it 100% 'fail proof'; but it helps define the Tempest as an alternative choice to other Minmatar Battleships and give it a role, matching the Minmatar design.
And I really don't understand your last comment. You have never flown a Minmatar ship and likely sit behind EVE Fitting Tool. All you are is "hurr amarr, zomg boost me nurf all other", so it is rather funny. Seriously lyria are you even breathing air or are you just some comedy-bot sent to amuse me with your idiocy?
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Neena Valdi
Geddonites
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Posted - 2008.02.15 22:45:00 -
[154]
Originally by: Ariel Dawn
Minmatar do not have the DPS output or Tank of other ships in the battleship size.
Right. Especially Maelstrom. Trully, worst tank and poor dps.
Nice attempt of trolling there Ariel.
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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.02.15 23:27:00 -
[155]
Originally by: Neena Valdi
Originally by: Ariel Dawn
Minmatar do not have the DPS output or Tank of other ships in the battleship size.
Right. Especially Maelstrom. Trully, worst tank and poor dps.
Nice attempt of trolling there Ariel.
Hey, lets read one sentence and then reply to it instead of the entire post! I write "The Maelstrom does more DPS and tanks very very well" a whole 2 lines later. The Maelstrom is one of the slowest and least agile Battleships but has the DPS and Tank in exchange. And the rest of the post makes clear the intention of these comments towards the Tempest, which is neither DPS/Tank proficient.
Your inability to read does not make people trolls.
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KD.Fluffy
The Avalon Foundation
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Posted - 2008.02.16 00:18:00 -
[156]
Quote: Hey, lets read one sentence and then reply to it instead of the entire post! I write "The Maelstrom does more DPS and tanks very very well" a whole 2 lines later. The Maelstrom is one of the slowest and least agile Battleships but has the DPS and Tank in exchange. And the rest of the post makes clear the intention of these comments towards the Tempest, which is neither DPS/Tank proficient.
Your inability to read does not make people trolls.
no tier 2 battleship is dps and tank proficient save the raven.
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Mila Prestoc
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Posted - 2008.02.16 01:16:00 -
[157]
Originally by: KD.Fluffy no tier 2 battleship is dps and tank proficient save the raven.
And no one is asking for a dps+tank proficient tier 2 minmatar battleship so whats your point? -------------------------
Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.02.16 02:14:00 -
[158]
Originally by: KD.Fluffy
Quote: Hey, lets read one sentence and then reply to it instead of the entire post! I write "The Maelstrom does more DPS and tanks very very well" a whole 2 lines later. The Maelstrom is one of the slowest and least agile Battleships but has the DPS and Tank in exchange. And the rest of the post makes clear the intention of these comments towards the Tempest, which is neither DPS/Tank proficient.
Your inability to read does not make people trolls.
no tier 2 battleship is dps and tank proficient save the raven.
First time I've seen someone say a Megathron isn't good at doing DPS or tanking. Or saying the Apoc has a bad tank.
More DPS for the Tempest would be nice, but agility is the only feasible solution considering what determines boosts/nerfs (forum presence! ).
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Wrayeth
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.02.16 02:18:00 -
[159]
I'll just chime in here and say that the tempest needs help. I miss my weathervane. -Wrayeth n00b Extraordinaire "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.02.16 05:20:00 -
[160]
Originally by: Ariel Dawn
Minmatar do not have the DPS output or Tank of other ships in the battleship size.
I pretty much stopped reading here. Tempest is fine and I think you need more skill flying it. If you dont like minmatar ships maybe you should crosstrain? Also minmatar might be a bit too skill intense? Wait a few years and tempest will get better when your skills improve. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation |
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Maraleith
The Culture Holding Corporation
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Posted - 2008.02.16 05:47:00 -
[161]
Edited by: Maraleith on 16/02/2008 05:56:07
Originally by: KD.Fluffy the tempest is FINE as it is. your right when you say it may not be the best bs in game, but who cares. Eve is about ships being different. The tempest can hit very high dps, and be selective with damage types. Not sure how their is a problem with that.
Um, I look at your very nice megathron sig, your comment and . The Tempest's DPS does not match its companions (Tier 2 bs). A megathron will eat its lunch every day of the week (for the reasons explained above) and even if the Tempest did manage to lay down on it; you can at least tank some damage. The Tempest's tank is nowhere near as strong as the other tier 2 bs tanks.
All the Tempest has going for it is sniping and alphastrike; BOTH got nerfed badly once. With the advent of rigs and doomsday proof ships, alphastrike is nowhere near the edge it once was.
In addition, in order for the Tempest to snipe, virtually every spare slot needs to be used to boost sensors or tracking. This gives ships with optimal boosts a major advantage. It effectively gives them slots against the Tempest. This is why the pest needs some love; outdamaged, outtanked and outranged by its peers.
As for speed; even that got nerfed when it became too much an I win button didn't it? Nanophoon's died very quickly after that. Right now, the Tempest is obsolete, the Phoon is way too skill dependent for a Tier 1 bs and the Malestrom needs some tinkering as well.
We won't mention ewar; that will derail the thread but add in tracking disruptors, a better tank, a longer range and any Minmatar pilot would cry havoc too at the massive love being sent Amarr BS pilots way.
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Neena Valdi
Geddonites
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Posted - 2008.02.16 08:33:00 -
[162]
Originally by: Ariel Dawn
Originally by: KD.Fluffy
Quote: Hey, lets read one sentence and then reply to it instead of the entire post! I write "The Maelstrom does more DPS and tanks very very well" a whole 2 lines later. The Maelstrom is one of the slowest and least agile Battleships but has the DPS and Tank in exchange. And the rest of the post makes clear the intention of these comments towards the Tempest, which is neither DPS/Tank proficient.
Your inability to read does not make people trolls.
no tier 2 battleship is dps and tank proficient save the raven.
First time I've seen someone say a Megathron isn't good at doing DPS or tanking. Or saying the Apoc has a bad tank.
More DPS for the Tempest would be nice, but agility is the only feasible solution considering what determines boosts/nerfs (forum presence! ).
Sorry to say Ariel, but its you who fail to understand: battleships (read: ships) weren't designed to be all equal.
Tempest: huge alpha strike, capless guns Mega: much longer optimal and better tracking, a bit more dps, but much lower alpha strike and guns will eat your cap very fast.
Agility? Does it matter that much as most of the fleet fittings include nowadays tripple trimark rigs and a plate or even two?
Get over it seriously. You don't like tempest - fly something else. I see a lot of players using actively tempest and not crying about it on every corner.
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Neena Valdi
Geddonites
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Posted - 2008.02.16 08:42:00 -
[163]
Originally by: Maraleith Edited by: Maraleith on 16/02/2008 05:56:07
Originally by: KD.Fluffy the tempest is FINE as it is. your right when you say it may not be the best bs in game, but who cares. Eve is about ships being different. The tempest can hit very high dps, and be selective with damage types. Not sure how their is a problem with that.
Um, I look at your very nice megathron sig, your comment and . The Tempest's DPS does not match its companions (Tier 2 bs). A megathron will eat its lunch every day of the week (for the reasons explained above) and even if the Tempest did manage to lay down on it; you can at least tank some damage. The Tempest's tank is nowhere near as strong as the other tier 2 bs tanks.
All the Tempest has going for it is sniping and alphastrike; BOTH got nerfed badly once. With the advent of rigs and doomsday proof ships, alphastrike is nowhere near the edge it once was.
In addition, in order for the Tempest to snipe, virtually every spare slot needs to be used to boost sensors or tracking. This gives ships with optimal boosts a major advantage. It effectively gives them slots against the Tempest. This is why the pest needs some love; outdamaged, outtanked and outranged by its peers.
As for speed; even that got nerfed when it became too much an I win button didn't it? Nanophoon's died very quickly after that. Right now, the Tempest is obsolete, the Phoon is way too skill dependent for a Tier 1 bs and the Malestrom needs some tinkering as well.
We won't mention ewar; that will derail the thread but add in tracking disruptors, a better tank, a longer range and any Minmatar pilot would cry havoc too at the massive love being sent Amarr BS pilots way.
On close-range use Maelstrom. It outtanks and outganks most of t3 battleships. Sigh... another one who do not understand - ships aren't supposed to be equal and besides.. bringing 1 vs 1 as argument looks a bit newby, sorry to tell you that.
Forget about 1 vs 1 in EVE. Its a myth. Period.
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Maraleith
The Culture Holding Corporation
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Posted - 2008.02.16 09:27:00 -
[164]
Unfortunately I do understand; that's why I am commenting.
You can either do lots of damage over time or damage in one strike.
Alpha strike in the days of doomsday tanks is very much devalued. That's all the Tempest had going for it. Giving optimal bonuses to other races unbalances the game as it fundamentally shifts sniping engagements towards DPS, away from alphastrike,in a unbalanced manner.
The Amarr buff, while overdue and appropriate, only emphasises the fact that the Tempest has been made obsolete. I repeat, it is outdamaged (DPS), outtanked (having to use slots to achieve the ranges given to other ships with an optimal bonus) and with its speed/agility very vulnerable to anything that can tackle and do damage with heat.
The Tempest is on the verge of redundancy and this reflects sterile game design thinking and racial development. Simply saying upgrade to a Malestrom only emphasises the effect of tinkering. Follow the logic, I need a tier 3 ship to counter a change to a tier 2 ship. What does that mean for the tier 2 ship?
Personally, I would simply make adjustments to agility for the ships as minnie fleet philosophy is to be fast and fleeting, increase speed so that Minnie BS have at all tiers a clear speed superiority, enhance the tracking of minnie large guns (artillery and autocannons) to give some kind of slot comparability. I would also restore Tremor L to 100% range bonus and improve the alphastrike capability (more damage).
If some adjustment is not made, then watch the number of minnie ships used in fleets fall away precipitously. Does this matter? Well, expect plenty more nanominnie HACS cause they will be the only ship left worth anything to fly.
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Vanessa Vale
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Posted - 2008.02.16 13:17:00 -
[165]
Originally by: KD.Fluffy
you've gotta be kidding me. Minmatar arguably have the best cruisers in the game by far. Peoples whining never ceases to amaze me.
Do they? The only good cruiser minmatar have is the rupture.
Originally by: KD.Fluffy
Since when has it been a problem when a well rounded gang takes someone down?.... YOu can't kill the missle spammer? use your agility to get away. can't kill the pulse? do the same thing. They have a tackler? Well you got killed by a gang, and thats fair.
Are you aware that the agility bonus I was commenting on is referring to the one that was proposed for the tempest? Not to some hac?
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Vanessa Vale
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Posted - 2008.02.16 13:23:00 -
[166]
Originally by: Neena Valdi
Agility? Does it matter that much as most of the fleet fittings include nowadays tripple trimark rigs and a plate or even two?
Precisely.
Originally by: Neena Valdi
Get over it seriously. You don't like tempest - fly something else. I see a lot of players using actively tempest and not crying about it on every corner.
And if you don't like your system there are some other 5000 to choose from. Lets remove drone bays from gallente. And once people complain you can tell them to fly something else.
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Mila Prestoc
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Posted - 2008.02.16 13:24:00 -
[167]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Ariel Dawn
Minmatar do not have the DPS output or Tank of other ships in the battleship size.
I pretty much stopped reading here. Tempest is fine and I think you need more skill flying it. If you dont like minmatar ships maybe you should crosstrain? Also minmatar might be a bit too skill intense? Wait a few years and tempest will get better when your skills improve.
I could say the same about you and Amarr ships. Cross tank Gallente ships since thats what you want to turn them into. Here people are suggesting turning a ship with barely any extra speed (same mass+agility) as gallente ships into a more minmatar ship.
Originally by: Neena Valdi Sorry to say Ariel, but its you who fail to understand: battleships (read: ships) weren't designed to be all equal.
Tempest: huge alpha strike, capless guns Mega: much longer optimal and better tracking, a bit more dps, but much lower alpha strike and guns will eat your cap very fast.
Agility? Does it matter that much as most of the fleet fittings include nowadays tripple trimark rigs and a plate or even two?
Get over it seriously. You don't like tempest - fly something else. I see a lot of players using actively tempest and not crying about it on every corner.
You fail to understand, this change is for CLOSE RANGE... What you mean for snipers is, Maelstrom: huge alpha strike, capless guns, Tempest is just a cheaper weaker version. The agility/mass/speed boost people are talking about is to help CLOSE RANGE. I'm going to start calling for no amarr ships to get boosted, because I see pleanty of people flying them so I guess the people complaining are just wrong. -------------------------
Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
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KD.Fluffy
The Avalon Foundation
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Posted - 2008.02.16 19:30:00 -
[168]
Quote: Um, I look at your very nice megathron sig, your comment and Laughing. The Tempest's DPS does not match its companions (Tier 2 bs). A megathron will eat its lunch every day of the week (for the reasons explained above) and even if the Tempest did manage to lay down on it; you can at least tank some damage. The Tempest's tank is nowhere near as strong as the other tier 2 bs tanks.
Yea, the megathron is supposed to be the king of dps in battleship class. If a tempest can out damage it, then there is something seriously wrong. I fail to see the problem there? Its also hideously slow, the tempest is a good deal quicker. FFS the tempest can hit 30km falloff with autocannons. Thats an extreme range advantage over the mega. Don't fix a ship thats not broken.
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Mila Prestoc
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Posted - 2008.02.16 20:17:00 -
[169]
Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 16/02/2008 20:17:22
Originally by: KD.Fluffy Yea, the megathron is supposed to be the king of dps in battleship class. If a tempest can out damage it, then there is something seriously wrong. I fail to see the problem there? Its also hideously slow, the tempest is a good deal quicker. FFS the tempest can hit 30km falloff with autocannons. Thats an extreme range advantage over the mega. Don't fix a ship thats not broken.
Mega is hideously slow and Tempest is good deal quicker? Read this post and say that again.
Damage at 30km? little over 50% with barrage... 250 dps from turrets if lucky. Mega damage at 30km, little over 25% with null... 175 dps from turrets, at lower range the better it is for the Mega, nevermind with drones. Yeah... such an extreme advantage. -------------------------
Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
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KD.Fluffy
The Avalon Foundation
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Posted - 2008.02.16 20:40:00 -
[170]
Quote: Damage at 30km? little over 50% with barrage... 250 dps from turrets if lucky. Mega damage at 30km, little over 25% with null... 175 dps from turrets, at lower range the better it is for the Mega, nevermind with drones. Yeah... such an extreme advantage.
Yep, so if you want the point blank range blaster boat, go for the mega. Otherwise you have your tempest which is a different ship.
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Mila Prestoc
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Posted - 2008.02.16 21:43:00 -
[171]
Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 16/02/2008 21:44:43
Originally by: KD.Fluffy
Quote: Damage at 30km? little over 50% with barrage... 250 dps from turrets if lucky. Mega damage at 30km, little over 25% with null... 175 dps from turrets, at lower range the better it is for the Mega, nevermind with drones. Yeah... such an extreme advantage.
Yep, so if you want the point blank range blaster boat, go for the mega. Otherwise you have your tempest which is a different ship.
I'd love to see what you say to Amarr pilots who say doing 600+ DPS at 40km isn't a real advantage if you see <100 dps more than a Mega at 30km as an advantage (less than half the lasers damage).
I like how you avoided the mistake you made about the speed. But hay lets just keep comenting on damage and tank when no one here is asking for more of either, they're asking for its speed/agility/mass to be that of a Minmatar ship and not practially the same as a Gallente ship. -------------------------
Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
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KD.Fluffy
The Avalon Foundation
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Posted - 2008.02.16 21:55:00 -
[172]
Quote: I'd love to see what you say to Amarr pilots who say doing 600+ DPS at 40km isn't a real advantage if you see <100 dps more than a Mega at 30km as an advantage (less than half the lasers damage).
I like how you avoided the mistake you made about the speed. But hay lets just keep comenting on damage and tank when no one here is asking for more of either, they're asking for its speed/agility/mass to be that of a Minmatar ship and not practially the same as a Gallente ship.
I made no mistake, tempest is faster, plain and simple. And as far as tank and damage is concerned, the op is asking for more. Read his first post.
Quote: Tempest (and fleet pest) needs looking at.
It's nicheless, out 1v1 by the Hyperion, out sniped by everything, out ganked by the phoon. It's only used by pilots unable to let go of the nostalgia of massive wrecking hits - or ones too cheap to use the maelstrom.
With the up coming tracking disruptor changes, one of the tempests biggest arsenals (it's speed + fall off) in it's primary rolls is seriously under threat.
If I where to fix the tempest?
I'd give it 7 turrets, and remove the damage bonus for a 10% fall off bonus, keeping the 2 launcher slots with an appropriate grid increase.
I'd also introduce falloff scripts for tracking computers.
It follows on neatly to the Vargur bonuses and provides a ship and a fighting style different to anything existing currently.
Im still going to mantain that the tempest is fine. It can pack quite a punch, and while you may consider it inferior to the other races tier 2 I simply disagree with you. In fact its amazing that any minmatar pilot can complain that one of their ships isn't good enough when their whole ship line up is simply awesome.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.16 22:27:00 -
[173]
Originally by: Mila Prestoc
Mega is hideously slow and Tempest is good deal quicker? Read this post and say that again.
Damage at 30km? little over 50% with barrage... 250 dps from turrets if lucky. Mega damage at 30km, little over 25% with null... 175 dps from turrets, at lower range the better it is for the Mega, nevermind with drones. Yeah... such an extreme advantage.
Only if you dont figure damage types.
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Mila Prestoc
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Posted - 2008.02.16 23:13:00 -
[174]
Originally by: KD.Fluffy I made no mistake, tempest is faster, plain and simple. And as far as tank and damage is concerned, the op is asking for more. Read his first post.
Quote: Its also hideously slow, the tempest is a good deal quicker
100m/s with mwd is not "a good deal quicker" with the same mass/agility. Fly it, if you think Mega is "hidiously slow" the Pest is not that different. Fly a Amarr BS or the none gallente tier 3 BS and you'll see what a truely hidiously slow and unagile ship is like.
Read the full topic, most people looked at the options, and I think most don't just want the Pest to be a Gallente BS, hence they want it to be more like the Typhoon in agility/speed/mass.
Originally by: Goumindong Only if you dont figure damage types.
I didn't figure drones and stuff either, I was being basic in reply to the basic statement he made. Either way he's saying the ability to do (with just turrets avoiding drone flight time arguements) 100 DPS vs 60 DPS @ 30km (2 HS geddon does 160) on a 2xEANM+DC tank along with 100m/s with mwd makes the Tempest fine. -------------------------
Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
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Yargo Metash
Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.02.16 23:42:00 -
[175]
All for an agility/mass buff to the tempest. Seen a rather drastic drop of them in high sec mission hubs. Went from around 2 to 3 a day to almost none, although I see tons of Maels/Typhoons and other races battleships.
I wouldn't say the fleet pest needs a look though. It's a pricier Phoon in terms of skillpoint investment, although adding same agility/mass boost to it would be in order.
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Rockbox
Vidar Fierd Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2008.02.21 18:37:00 -
[176]
Edited by: Rockbox on 21/02/2008 18:37:39
Originally by: KD.Fluffy
Quote: Damage at 30km? little over 50% with barrage... 250 dps from turrets if lucky. Mega damage at 30km, little over 25% with null... 175 dps from turrets, at lower range the better it is for the Mega, nevermind with drones. Yeah... such an extreme advantage.
Yep, so if you want the point blank range blaster boat, go for the mega. Otherwise you have your tempest which is a different ship.
null is great in scram range, so tempest is out gunned in scram range, which sucks... signature removed - please email us to find out why (include a link to the image URL) - Jacques([email protected]) |
Gort
Storm Guard Elite
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Posted - 2008.02.22 20:07:00 -
[177]
used to really enjoy my Tempest sniper when the call would go out for a LR BS fleet. I haven't flown it in awhile, (some changes have happened in the Eve universe since then!) but I doubt it can hold up its particular place of pride in the sniper fleet anymore, and that's really too bad. The Tempest group could lay down some first volley whoop-ass at range back in the day. I think that's pretty much gone, baby, gone, and I don't know if there's much left for the ship to advertise any more.
My 0.02,
G
-- When in doubt, empty the magazine. |
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