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Cypher V
Minmatar Chaos Affliction
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Posted - 2008.02.07 08:47:00 -
[1]
OK, so I'm an industrialist by trade, but it's becoming practically impossible to actually make ISK by selling Tech I goods now. That INCLUDES ships!
The reason for this is ISK farmers selling minerals for seriously cheap on the market. This drives down prices for manufactured goods and means that you're actually making a loss on most items you sell.
Just to give you an idea, mining in a Covetor takes 3h45m to mine the minerals for a Harbinger ( <37mil in Rens market ), plus 12mil on the rares. Where as you can run level 4 missions and earn the cash in 3h45m with 3 people doing it and get and average 26mil in the same time for EACH player! With LP and standing on TOP of that.
It should NOT be like that. Mining is boring as hell, and should thus give better rewards, hour for hour, for doing it. EVERYONE can do level4's and PvP, not everyone can fly mining barges.
OK, so with the rant out of the way, heres the fool proof solution.
- 30 second ship change prevention is removed (I'm assuming this is to stop people docking and undocking with different ships millions of times.)
- When clicking on "Undock" a box appears, say 500x300 in size with a button inside of it at a RANDOM possition inside of it saying "Confirm Undock Request".
- Upon clicking the "Request Undock" button, you either have to wait for the 30 second postdocking time limit to reach zero, or immediately undock as usual. Usual loading box and "Abort" button appears.
This is such a SIMPLE fix, and I'm certain that people will understand that it is an essential evil to have this ugly box with a randomly possitioned button inside of it.
It's EASY to code, and doesn't mess with anything else.
Critisms and flaming welcomed.
Cypher V out.
ps. FFS CCP, stopping ISK farmers is EASY! Get it DONE! I know that the subscriptions from the farmers fill your pockets, but it's skrewing around with your game, man....get some pride.
---------------------------------------------- Minmatar suck? Shoulda done my research -_- |
Cypher V
Minmatar Chaos Affliction
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Posted - 2008.02.07 08:47:00 -
[2]
OK, so I'm an industrialist by trade, but it's becoming practically impossible to actually make ISK by selling Tech I goods now. That INCLUDES ships!
The reason for this is ISK farmers selling minerals for seriously cheap on the market. This drives down prices for manufactured goods and means that you're actually making a loss on most items you sell.
Just to give you an idea, mining in a Covetor takes 3h45m to mine the minerals for a Harbinger ( <37mil in Rens market ), plus 12mil on the rares. Where as you can run level 4 missions and earn the cash in 3h45m with 3 people doing it and get and average 26mil in the same time for EACH player! With LP and standing on TOP of that.
It should NOT be like that. Mining is boring as hell, and should thus give better rewards, hour for hour, for doing it. EVERYONE can do level4's and PvP, not everyone can fly mining barges.
OK, so with the rant out of the way, heres the fool proof solution.
- 30 second ship change prevention is removed (I'm assuming this is to stop people docking and undocking with different ships millions of times.)
- When clicking on "Undock" a box appears, say 500x300 in size with a button inside of it at a RANDOM possition inside of it saying "Confirm Undock Request".
- Upon clicking the "Request Undock" button, you either have to wait for the 30 second postdocking time limit to reach zero, or immediately undock as usual. Usual loading box and "Abort" button appears.
This is such a SIMPLE fix, and I'm certain that people will understand that it is an essential evil to have this ugly box with a randomly possitioned button inside of it.
It's EASY to code, and doesn't mess with anything else.
Critisms and flaming welcomed.
Cypher V out.
ps. FFS CCP, stopping ISK farmers is EASY! Get it DONE! I know that the subscriptions from the farmers fill your pockets, but it's skrewing around with your game, man....get some pride.
---------------------------------------------- Minmatar suck? Shoulda done my research -_- |
facepalm johnson
a sackful of sacrificial sacrifices
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Posted - 2008.02.07 08:50:00 -
[3]
There are enough irritations and inconsistencies with the UI without adding a button that appears in a random location to get you to undock.
Plus, it could still be macro'd.
Fool.
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facepalm johnson
a sackful of sacrificial sacrifices
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Posted - 2008.02.07 08:50:00 -
[4]
There are enough irritations and inconsistencies with the UI without adding a button that appears in a random location to get you to undock.
Plus, it could still be macro'd.
Fool.
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Cypher V
Minmatar Chaos Affliction
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Posted - 2008.02.07 08:53:00 -
[5]
How the hell could that be macrod? Do you know how? :P
And don't get me started on the EVE UI... They need to stop adding ships, and make the games UI streamline... But that's another story.
Give me your suggestion to stopping the Macro-ers, and ISK farmers then. Fool.
---------------------------------------------- Minmatar suck? Shoulda done my research -_- |
Cypher V
Minmatar Chaos Affliction
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Posted - 2008.02.07 08:53:00 -
[6]
How the hell could that be macrod? Do you know how? :P
And don't get me started on the EVE UI... They need to stop adding ships, and make the games UI streamline... But that's another story.
Give me your suggestion to stopping the Macro-ers, and ISK farmers then. Fool.
---------------------------------------------- Minmatar suck? Shoulda done my research -_- |
Sphynx Stormlord
Gallente Anqara Tech
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Posted - 2008.02.07 08:57:00 -
[7]
Quote:
The reason for this is ISK farmers selling minerals for seriously cheap on the market. This drives down prices for manufactured goods and means that you're actually making a loss on most items you sell.
This is just wrong. If minerals are cheaper, it reduces the costs for manufactured goods too.
If you are making a loss on the goods you sell, you are selling the wrong goods, or in the wrong place. Go find somewhere where there is less competition or more demand.
And changing the user interface to make it worse is a realy stupid thing to do, or to sugest.
The farmers are not even necessarily macro users, lots of them are ultra low wage chinamen.
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Bosie
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Posted - 2008.02.07 08:57:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Cypher V
[b] - 30 second ship change prevention is removed (I'm assuming this is to stop people docking and undocking with different ships millions of times.)
That is to stop black screen hangs in Eve, you do not want them back!
"There is a forgotten, nay almost forbidden word, which means more to me than any other. That word is ENGLAND |
Sphynx Stormlord
Gallente Anqara Tech
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Posted - 2008.02.07 08:57:00 -
[9]
Quote:
The reason for this is ISK farmers selling minerals for seriously cheap on the market. This drives down prices for manufactured goods and means that you're actually making a loss on most items you sell.
This is just wrong. If minerals are cheaper, it reduces the costs for manufactured goods too.
If you are making a loss on the goods you sell, you are selling the wrong goods, or in the wrong place. Go find somewhere where there is less competition or more demand.
And changing the user interface to make it worse is a realy stupid thing to do, or to sugest.
The farmers are not even necessarily macro users, lots of them are ultra low wage chinamen.
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Bosie
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Posted - 2008.02.07 08:57:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Cypher V
[b] - 30 second ship change prevention is removed (I'm assuming this is to stop people docking and undocking with different ships millions of times.)
That is to stop black screen hangs in Eve, you do not want them back!
"There is a forgotten, nay almost forbidden word, which means more to me than any other. That word is ENGLAND |
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Lori Carlyle
Vengeance 8 Interceptors
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Posted - 2008.02.07 09:00:00 -
[11]
I assume it would be easy.
Set eve up so there is nothing moving in the background (static picture) before macro clicks undock takes a quick snapshop Clicks undock Moves pixle by pixle checking for any chages to the snapshot and whats on the screen now, finds the 1st pixle thats diffrent moves X pixles so it's at the center of the change (in your case the undock button) and Click!.
I have zippo brains on if that could be done or not, but there are ways to scan for changes in pixle color of 2 images so I'm assuming so.
----
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Cypher V
Minmatar Chaos Affliction
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Posted - 2008.02.07 09:03:00 -
[12]
OK then, it's been decided, little box is a bullcrap idea.
How about once you lock a target in high sec, the other person has a 5 minute time limit to leave before you can legally attack them.
Most of the macro'ers I've met in space are AFK, so they wouldn't notice.
Admittedly, this wouldn't solve the problem, but it would at least reduce it.
ps. Provide your own solutions, don't just flame relentlessly. OK, so box with random button was a sucky idea. But suggest your own.
---------------------------------------------- Minmatar suck? Shoulda done my research -_- |
facepalm johnson
a sackful of sacrificial sacrifices
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Posted - 2008.02.07 09:04:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Cypher V Give me your suggestion to stopping the Macro-ers, and ISK farmers then. Fool.
We could:
a) add one of those CAPTCHA image thingoes to undock, obviously.
Or
b) just not care.
Option B, gives me the horn tbh.
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Frug
Zenithal Harvest
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Posted - 2008.02.07 09:06:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Frug on 07/02/2008 09:06:02 Your ideas are terrible and you don't know anything about how macros work.
A button in a random position is very easy to program something to click on.
It's very easy to program a macro to warp away after it's been targeted for 5 minutes. Never mind the other problems your last idea would cause.
Edit: captchas don't work very well.
- - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles |
Lori Carlyle
Vengeance 8 Interceptors
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Posted - 2008.02.07 09:07:00 -
[15]
Your 2nd idea would make Jita 4-4 worse then 0.0
^_^ Could be fun!
If you want to stop macro's get people to STOP BUYING THE MOFO ISK
CCP won't help you we can SB there operations and they return Destroy there haulers and they return
there like roaches... ----
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Mithfindel
Argent Group
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Posted - 2008.02.07 09:17:00 -
[16]
I admit being an engineer, not an economist, but I know optimization.
So, you mine your minerals, and consider that what you mined yourself is worth more than what can be bought from the market. Continuing the chain, this makes your expenses in manufacturing the refined product (T1 item) that high, that selling them at the market price is not profitable.
Now, you need to identify the limiting factor in the production chain. Mineral price. Others can beat your prices, so assuming that you have any spare capital, you can buy the minerals needed for your manufacturing process. This saves your time and your ISK, which translates into ability to compete with the prices better, reap better profits per unit and raise the level of profit of your production in general. And should the mineral prices raise again, you still can go back into mining your own minerals.
This, of course, assumes that the minerals indeed are cheap. If not, then it's just someone who doesn't understand the economy at all, and assumes that minerals are free since he mined those himself. In that case, they won't produce that much (due to time taken to mine, or plain old-fashioned bankruptcy since it isn't that profitable ISK-wise), so you could buy their stuff and sell it at a higher price that is in accordance with the market situation. Free ISK!
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Cypher V
Minmatar Chaos Affliction
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Posted - 2008.02.07 09:18:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Lori Carlyle If you want to stop macro's get people to STOP BUYING THE MOFO ISK
Maybe this is the route to take...
But how could they be found? Or how could it be stopped, or punished effectively? hmm... tough one.
A flagging system might be an answer, but I've seen it been suggested before and it got annihilated by forum posters...
---------------------------------------------- Minmatar suck? Shoulda done my research -_- |
Merdaneth
Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
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Posted - 2008.02.07 09:25:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Cypher V How the hell could that be macrod? Do you know how? :P
Actually, very easy to macro. A series of automated clicks on the screen working from left to right and top to bottom will catch the button easily.
Maybe you should change your title.
By the way, farmers != macro's. Get your definitions straight. ____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Zanpt
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Posted - 2008.02.07 09:28:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Cypher V ...Give me your suggestion to stopping the Macro-ers, and ISK farmers then. Fool.
This is a different fool. Stopping ISK farmers is easy, as I've pointed out many times before, and it seems that of late CCP has indeed gotten rid of all the ISK farmers I was tracking in my area, and the one lone macrominer, too.
CCP has long had all the information necessary to detect, verify and ban ISK farmers, their refiners, their haulers, their middlemen and their ISK delivery agents. All the audit trail necessary is already in the Eve database -- all transactions, all trades, all contracts are in the database. Database queries can pull up suspicious transactions, and once any part of an ISK farming operation is detected, all the levels are easily traceable, from the miners through to the ISK delivery to the buyer. The IRS / Inland Revenue would give its collective left arm to have such a complete audit trail.
Meanwhile I'm not playing because of incessant disconnects.
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.02.07 09:30:00 -
[20]
If the reduction in unnamed T1 loot drops happens, which I hope it does, despite being a mission monger, then we should see a return to profitable mining. This will also increase the number of ISK farmers in the belts, they go where the ISK is. However - if this happens, it is a bonus. Find an ISK farming crew and farm the farmers. Two people can farm farmers and collect more minerals than they could if they mined. Introduce the farmers to the ORE shuttle, one of the best mining ships in Eve.
The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)
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facepalm johnson
a sackful of sacrificial sacrifices
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Posted - 2008.02.07 09:32:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Merdaneth Actually, very easy to macro. A series of automated clicks on the screen working from left to right and top to bottom will catch the button easily.
Maybe you should change your title.
By the way, farmers != macro's. Get your definitions straight.
OMG! Now we've got farmers macroing replies to teh_forum threads and by-passing the CAPTCHA images with their automated clicking tricks!
This is the end of worlds! How to stop themsssss????? !
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Frug
Zenithal Harvest
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Posted - 2008.02.07 09:42:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Adunh Slavy If the reduction in unnamed T1 loot drops happens, which I hope it does, despite being a mission monger, then we should see a return to profitable mining. This will also increase the number of ISK farmers in the belts, they go where the ISK is. However - if this happens, it is a bonus. Find an ISK farming crew and farm the farmers. Two people can farm farmers and collect more minerals than they could if they mined. Introduce the farmers to the ORE shuttle, one of the best mining ships in Eve.
Quoted for truth
- - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles |
OhDearLord
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Posted - 2008.02.07 09:46:00 -
[23]
Learn to read and parse the screen in macros. Or you could learn to spam clicks over a given area. Or to parse logserver output in order to find out information about the client's state.
I guess it would probably even be possible to try and find out by reading the client's memory but I think that would be much more trouble that's worth.
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Culdees
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Posted - 2008.02.07 10:20:00 -
[24]
i dont think it is possible to rid the game of isk sellers macros. if they are earning $ then all you can do is make it harder for them, they will have a counter for everything. even as far as having one person controlling a set of macros/group/whatever to farm.
the only way i see would be to change some of the fundamentals of the game such as the economy. the changes would be too radical though. you would have to -
-have a market that could buy and sell anything other than rare items at the npc level, so no player sales or contracts.
-have no player trade whatsoever.
-have the only means to play via an account paid for in $ to ccp, no gtc or character selling.
this solution is just a bit of fun of course. the game would be VERY different if everyone had to earn their own isk, but it highlights the lengths you would have to go to to remove isk seller macros.
macros would probably still remain to farm for players own use, but it would cut down on the numbers from isk selling etc.
the best solution is just to track it. as has been mentioned, the trail exists for anyone in cpp who wants to invest a bit of time in clearing them out.
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Minerva Vulcan
Caldari The Nexus Foundation Endless Horizon
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Posted - 2008.02.07 10:38:00 -
[25]
Originally by: facepalm johnson There are enough irritations and inconsistencies with the UI without adding a button that appears in a random location to get you to undock.
I don't know.
I think it's annoying enough that they might implement it.
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ToxicFire
Phoenix Knights Dark Nebula Galactic Empire
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Posted - 2008.02.07 11:08:00 -
[26]
Ok another one of these threads, what happened to that single thread that was supposed to be for all this crap can't people use the search function anymore.
First your anti-macro idea anyone with an ounce of software development knowledge would be able to counter it with ease.
Second your stated drop in the mineral market due to isk farmers (not the same as macroers) making profit on t1 items practically impossible, is utter rubbish, one mineral prices dropping actually increases profit margins because mineral prices will shift faster than product prices. Additionally there are many many items that are T1 that have over 200% profit margins, what you mean is is there's no big value items any more where you can get hundreds of millions in profit per transaction that's just due to an increase in supply of low sale volume items its called competition and is good for the market consumer. ------------------------------------------ Sig removed as it lacks EVE-related content. Mail [email protected] if you have questions. -Hango
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Pan Crastus
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.02.07 11:08:00 -
[27]
LOL at the people who still care about ISK farmers when half of EVE buys ISK one way (legally) or another (illegally)...
EVE Online: a cold, cruel world where (RL-)rich people replace their losses with GTCs sold to poor students who need to farm ISK to afford their play time ...
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Fulbert
Gallente Calvi Industries Northern Star Coalition
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Posted - 2008.02.07 11:54:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Fulbert on 07/02/2008 11:54:02 Yeah guys, make things more painful to professional miners/haulers by complicating the undock thing. Add more lag and delays just to minimize illegal ISK-buying consequences.
Seriously.
If mining was less a question of survey/click/target/activate strips/transfer to can and more an active task (requiring attention), macro'ing wouldn't be so competitive against farming players (like me). Even without macros, i can sit AFK almost 20 minutes at 0.5 ice belt (40 minutes with a Hulk). Only 70.000 isk per minute yeah (and i do not take dead times in consideration), but fully AFK, without any risk.
____________________________________ Fulbert Gall-dari Miner for Calvi Industries "does somebody need scordite?" |
Forando
Interstellar Cowards
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Posted - 2008.02.07 12:15:00 -
[29]
Moving buttons should not be hard to do. I know a fishing-bot for World of Warcraft worked by detecting where the bobber was, by scanning the image, I think it even modified the gfx, to change the color of it, so it was easier to detect.
(to those who don't know it: fishing in WoW was done my throwing the line, and the bobber would appear randomly placed in the water, and jump up and down when it had cought a fish or something else, but you had to click on the bobber when it started bouncing to get it)
I'm sure there will always be ways to automate stuff like this, question is though, how easy it will be to detect. Most of the time, you'll see the effort the programmers put into solving this is ill spend after a few weeks, sadly.
One thing in particular I find difficult is, a change like this (OP) can't really be implemented without annoying the player-base. I'm mean, who here is not dead-tired of Windows asking you 2 times if you're sure what you want? I'm sure I don't want to chase a button each time I'm gonna undock, it's plan ridicules.
Enjoy, and fly safe..
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Commoner
Caldari Emergent Chaos Bedlam Consortium
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Posted - 2008.02.07 12:18:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Cypher V OK, so I'm an industrialist by trade, but it's becoming practically impossible to actually make ISK by selling Tech I goods now. That INCLUDES ships!
The reason for this is ISK farmers selling minerals for seriously cheap on the market. This drives down prices for manufactured goods and means that you're actually making a loss on most items you sell.
Just to give you an idea, mining in a Covetor takes 3h45m to mine the minerals for a Harbinger ( <37mil in Rens market ), plus 12mil on the rares. Where as you can run level 4 missions and earn the cash in 3h45m with 3 people doing it and get and average 26mil in the same time for EACH player! With LP and standing on TOP of that.
It should NOT be like that. Mining is boring as hell, and should thus give better rewards, hour for hour, for doing it. EVERYONE can do level4's and PvP, not everyone can fly mining barges.
OK, so with the rant out of the way, heres the fool proof solution.
- 30 second ship change prevention is removed (I'm assuming this is to stop people docking and undocking with different ships millions of times.)
- When clicking on "Undock" a box appears, say 500x300 in size with a button inside of it at a RANDOM possition inside of it saying "Confirm Undock Request".
- Upon clicking the "Request Undock" button, you either have to wait for the 30 second postdocking time limit to reach zero, or immediately undock as usual. Usual loading box and "Abort" button appears.
This is such a SIMPLE fix, and I'm certain that people will understand that it is an essential evil to have this ugly box with a randomly possitioned button inside of it.
It's EASY to code, and doesn't mess with anything else.
Critisms and flaming welcomed.
Cypher V out.
ps. FFS CCP, stopping ISK farmers is EASY! Get it DONE! I know that the subscriptions from the farmers fill your pockets, but it's skrewing around with your game, man....get some pride.
Wouldn't work, some automation programs are so smart that they scan the screen and read the colors (and make choices on the basis of color). If this was to be implemented you would also have to change color each time.
As to the solution, it would annoy the hell out of everyone not macromining. The worst pvp'er in EVE :
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