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Jenshae Chiroptera
441
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Posted - 2012.02.15 14:40:00 -
[1] - Quote
There are some fundamental problems with democracy.
Tribes or groups of people will vote for a particular person associated with them.
For example, in South Africa, the Zulus, which is the largest group always vote for the ANC party which comprises of people from their tribe. They will even vote in a new leader who has forcefully removed the previous leader before the end of his term and is up on corruption, arms dealing and indecent assault charges prior to the election.
Null sec voting blocks.
Your control as a voter is usually an illusion.
Even in the best of conditions, your choices narrow down to only a few candidates that are usually chosen for you. You do not get to elect the entire bureaucracy, who make the day to day decisions. You have no recourse if those people do not follow through with their promises and have only told you what you wanted to hear. There is no "neither" option on the ballots.
CCP developers and the CSM system.
Money and propaganda machines.
There are people financially well off and connected enough to basically shout louder than anyone else. They have the resources to hire people to go about spreading their information and making a lot of flashy displays.
Alliances with the ISK cushion; that can dedicate people to forums and favour trading in game instead of being distracted with the struggle to be viable.
Charisma is not the same as aptitude.
Politicians are not required to undergo IQ or personality tests. They do not have to write particular exams or prove their competency. All they simply have to do is convince you to vote for them.
Alliance or corporation leader are not necessarily good CSM material.
Tangents
There seems to be a growing tendency to destroy high security and worm hole space. There seems to be large vocal groups who instead of working as people to improve their social groups or to get their area of space made better for them, seek only to sabotage the other options so that people are left with no other choice than to go out there and be slaughtered as victims.
I would like to see areas being improved for the people that are there and enjoy that play style instead of breaking things to force others there.
There are some individuals that you might think are okay or that you like but have a look at the groups that they lead. They wouldn't be leading them if they were not liked and are similar to those people. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Akrasjel Lanate
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
594
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Posted - 2012.02.15 14:46:00 -
[2] - Quote
Well said
Also:
Quote:the iron law of oligarchy if you know what i mean |
Terrorfrodo
Deep Space Darwinian Law Enforcement Agency
18
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Posted - 2012.02.15 14:50:00 -
[3] - Quote
Stll, there is no better alternative to democracy, except a dictatorship with me as the dictator. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
441
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Posted - 2012.02.15 14:56:00 -
[4] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:Stll, there is no better alternative to democracy, except a dictatorship with me as the dictator.
There is. You simply need to look at the weaknesses of a system then look at improvements. For example, straight off the bat you could try to ensure that the people are competent before they stand for election
There are theoretical systems that have not been tried yet. One reason being that they threaten the way that democracy currently controls people while giving them a placebo "feel good" affect. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Terrorfrodo
Deep Space Darwinian Law Enforcement Agency
18
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Posted - 2012.02.15 15:01:00 -
[5] - Quote
Quote:For example, straight off the bat you could try to ensure that the people are competent before they stand for election And who is going to ensure that, and on whose authority? |
Two step
Aperture Harmonics K162
1148
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Posted - 2012.02.15 15:08:00 -
[6] - Quote
What about people like me, or Trebor, or Meissa, all of whom aren't members of large alliances, who are on the CSM? Doesn't that prove that you are wrong that large alliance backing is required to be elected? Vote Two step for CSM 7 CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
94
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Posted - 2012.02.15 15:09:00 -
[7] - Quote
i, for one, am disgusted that in this Massively Multiplayer game the system for input favors those who can make friends, instead of friendless aspies |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
123
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Posted - 2012.02.15 15:10:00 -
[8] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:There are some fundamental problems with democracy.
Tribes or groups of people will vote for a particular person associated with them.
Null sec voting blocks. Please add (for CSM) to your topic and then I will give you a like so you can run on in this democratic and transparent election.
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Jenshae Chiroptera
441
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Posted - 2012.02.15 15:14:00 -
[9] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:Quote:For example, straight off the bat you could try to ensure that the people are competent before they stand for election And who is going to ensure that, and on whose authority?
"Who watches the watchers?" Public records and whistle blowing systems? Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Yeep
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
54
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Posted - 2012.02.15 15:16:00 -
[10] - Quote
Large alliances are made up of people with the same goals and ideals. People vote for someone who shares their goals and ideals. If I didn't agree with the goals and ideals of The Mittani I'd be in a different alliance. If fewer people agreed with the goals and ideals of The Mittani his alliance would be smaller. How is this difficult? |
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Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
94
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Posted - 2012.02.15 15:19:00 -
[11] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Terrorfrodo wrote:Quote:For example, straight off the bat you could try to ensure that the people are competent before they stand for election And who is going to ensure that, and on whose authority? "Who watches the watchers?" Public records and whistle blowing systems? i have reviewed your posts and determined you are incompetent to offer advice or opinions, and most especially to vote
please cease doing so at once |
Akrasjel Lanate
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
594
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Posted - 2012.02.15 15:26:00 -
[12] - Quote
Two step wrote:What about people like me, or Trebor, or Meissa, all of whom aren't members of large alliances, who are on the CSM? Doesn't that prove that you are wrong that large alliance backing is required to be elected? exception proves the rule |
Indeterminacy
THORN Syndicate Initiative Mercenaries
46
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Posted - 2012.02.15 15:29:00 -
[13] - Quote
Someone famous once said that democracy is the werst form of government...except for the all the other forms. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
441
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Posted - 2012.02.15 15:31:00 -
[14] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: ... and propaganda machines.
... shout louder than anyone else.
Alliances ... dedicate people to forums ...
Interesting, is it not; how the Goons piled onto this thread? Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
94
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Posted - 2012.02.15 15:33:00 -
[15] - Quote
there are few dumber posts than "look! the goons are posting in my thread! this means something!" |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
94
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Posted - 2012.02.15 15:33:00 -
[16] - Quote
unless of course you realize what it means: this is a bad thread and the people in it should be mocked
you, my aspie friend, fit perfectly into this category what with your rage against democracy because nobody likes you |
Jenshae Chiroptera
441
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Posted - 2012.02.15 15:36:00 -
[17] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:... because nobody likes you
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Charisma is not the same as aptitude..
Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Telegram Sam
The Drones Club
234
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Posted - 2012.02.15 15:38:00 -
[18] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:i, for one, am disgusted that in this Massively Multiplayer game the system for input favors those who can make friends, instead of friendless aspies An interesting point, mate. |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
96
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Posted - 2012.02.15 15:39:00 -
[19] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Retar Aveymone wrote:... because nobody likes you Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Charisma is not the same as aptitude.. why would you care any more than you would care if telepathy was different from telekenesis, they're both academic questions to you |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
35
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Posted - 2012.02.15 15:42:00 -
[20] - Quote
waaah waaah aspie tears, let's nerf democracy because nobody likes me |
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Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
35
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Posted - 2012.02.15 15:45:00 -
[21] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: ... and propaganda machines.
... shout louder than anyone else.
Alliances ... dedicate people to forums ...
Interesting, is it not; how the Goons piled onto this thread?
It's true, we can't resist taunting a raging sperg. Especially a self-quoting one. This is just too good.
Cry more tears about how you want to nerf democracy because people you don't like vote differently than you do.
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Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
48
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Posted - 2012.02.15 15:50:00 -
[22] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:unless of course you realize what it means: this is a bad thread and the people in it should be mocked
you, my aspie friend, fit perfectly into this category what with your rage against democracy because nobody likes you
An aspie is one who has Asperger's Syndrome, which is believed to be part of the autism spectrum. Aspies, while being quite gifted verbally, have social, emotional, and sensory integration difficulties, among others.
Sounds like the perfect Goon leadership. But you already knew that.
You and Mittens and many other Goons love to use the Aspie reply a lot. Is that because you get confronted with it daily when looking in the mirror?
The only perfect Goon reply on the forums is when they insult people, drag their points of vieuw to the Goongutter, ridicule those who despise the whole thing Goons stand for. You Goons sound like the perfect Aspie cases yourself if you look at the very definition.
Johnny Marzetti wrote: It's true, we can't resist taunting a raging sperg. Especially a self-quoting one. This is just too good.
Cry more tears about how you want to nerf democracy because people you don't like vote differently than you do.
Ah, Sperg, another shortcut for Aspie or also know as Asperger's Syndrome.
Think this proves my previous statement even more. |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
96
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Posted - 2012.02.15 15:56:00 -
[23] - Quote
did you seriously reach into your big bag of retorts and only come up with a wordy "i know you are but what am I"?
come on man put some effort into it |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
96
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Posted - 2012.02.15 15:57:00 -
[24] - Quote
you post as well as white noise defends branch |
Jenshae Chiroptera
441
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Posted - 2012.02.15 15:57:00 -
[25] - Quote
Killer Gandry wrote: The only perfect Goon reply on the forums is when they insult people, drag their points of vieuw to the Goongutter, ridicule those who despise the whole thing Goons stand for. You Goons sound like the perfect Aspie cases yourself if you look at the very definition.
While I agree with you. It is not limited to Goons. People resort to attacking the person writing or saying something in the hopes that it will make that go away. They do not have the capacity to discuss it or refute it in a clear and coherent manner.
As per usual, they are desperate for attention and seeking an emotional response.
Goons will flood a thread and drown out other peoples' points of view if it in any way threatens them or their interests. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
35
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Posted - 2012.02.15 15:58:00 -
[26] - Quote
Killer Gandry wrote:Retar Aveymone wrote:unless of course you realize what it means: this is a bad thread and the people in it should be mocked
you, my aspie friend, fit perfectly into this category what with your rage against democracy because nobody likes you An aspie is one who has Asperger's Syndrome, which is believed to be part of the autism spectrum. Aspies, while being quite gifted verbally, have social, emotional, and sensory integration difficulties, among others.Sounds like the perfect Goon leadership. But you already knew that. You and Mittens and many other Goons love to use the Aspie reply a lot. Is that because you get confronted with it daily when looking in the mirror? The only perfect Goon reply on the forums is when they insult people, drag their points of vieuw to the Goongutter, ridicule those who despise the whole thing Goons stand for. You Goons sound like the perfect Aspie cases yourself if you look at the very definition. Johnny Marzetti wrote: It's true, we can't resist taunting a raging sperg. Especially a self-quoting one. This is just too good.
Cry more tears about how you want to nerf democracy because people you don't like vote differently than you do.
Ah, Sperg, another shortcut for Aspie or also know as Asperger's Syndrome. Think this proves my previous statement even more.
Your rebuttal is literally sperging out about the definition of aspie.
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Boris Lachenkov
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
14
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Posted - 2012.02.15 16:45:00 -
[27] - Quote
Null sec voting blocks. The people we get behind are usually the social ones with a good sense of how to work in a team with others in the CSM, an understanding of problem solving and articulate enough to talk about it to CCP and other CSMs. As I'll mention later, we don't just vote for the most social sperg in the pool, we vote on who we want. I voted for Walter Stine, not Dovinian but since Dovi won he will get all my support and photoshopping power. So why is it weird that we get behind people we know and talk to instead of someone that we've never seen/talked to?
CCP developers and the CSM system. Well, yes. Of course it is undemocratic, a game designed by vote is silly and terrible. It wastes an immense amount of time, talent and skill. If this game were designed by a vote I think we would probably see mini-dreadnoughts everywhere with smartbombing freighters -.- (Yes I exaggerate and jest)
Alliances with the ISK cushion; that can dedicate people to forums and favour trading in game instead of being distracted with the struggle to be viable. I can pay -ú14 a month and skill be viable on the forums and I don't even need to play the actual game. Alliance leaders sometimes go months without even being inside the game, why would they need to? We have forums and other communication channels to work in tandem with, or in spite of, being in the game. Alliances with a huge amount of money would probably go more towards spy accounts or people who actually need to be in the game.
I don't think anyone has a budget in their alliance for "forum warriors"
Alliance or corporation leader are not necessarily good CSM material. No, they aren't. Thankfully we can weed out the insane/terrible posters and vote ourselves for who we want to get behind. It's not like we go "LOLPICKMONTOLIO HE RUNS OUR ALLIANCE". I doubt the goons did either, Mittani is a good poster who knows the game and is well spoken enough to articulate his answers/solutions into meaningful ideas. If Montolio could do that as well I guess we would be getting behind him, rather then Dovinian (Beep beep).
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Jenshae Chiroptera
441
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Posted - 2012.02.15 17:04:00 -
[28] - Quote
Boris Lachenkov wrote:... The people we get behind are usually the social ones with ...
Again, I repeat that being social does not mean that you are most competent for the job.
Mittens and most politicians say what ever appeals to the lowest common denominator. He is harping on about how CSM went to an emergency meeting. There would not have been a meeting without the riots and revoked subscriptions in the first place. They didn't have to say anything special, just repeat what was already all over the game and forums.
High sec, low sec and worm hole space by their very nature tend to create a multitude of smaller groups. This fragmentation means that it is far less probable that there will be anyone taking up a position to protect their interests. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
22
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Posted - 2012.02.15 17:11:00 -
[29] - Quote
Democracy has never been done as it is a practical impossibility just as most other governing systems .. hence the titles of "theories".
For it to work every voter would need knowledge/understanding of everything which is never going to happen, especially not in this day and age with science doing its thing. Most societies have opted for an approximation where representatives are elected based on their knowledge (or claim thereof) of whatever topic is closest to the voter.
Vote with you mind rather than your heart and it will be mostly OK(ish) .. in Eve terms, opt for a candidate that has the health of the game as a whole (or a large portion) as a priority rather than just his/her backyard. Sadly even that will probably not do any good for us non-blocs as the backyard is filled with the bastard children of unholy unions twixt many of the current CSM and they all get a vote .. but as in real life .. YOU MUST VOTE OR FORFEIT THE RIGHT TO ***** AND MOAN AFTERWARDS! |
Boris Lachenkov
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
14
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Posted - 2012.02.15 17:37:00 -
[30] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Boris Lachenkov wrote:... The people we get behind are usually the social ones with ... Again, I repeat that being social does not mean that you are most competent for the job. Mittens and most politicians say what ever appeals to the lowest common denominator. He is harping on about how CSM went to an emergency meeting. There would not have been a meeting without the riots and revoked subscriptions in the first place. They didn't have to say anything special, just repeat what was already all over the game and forums. High sec, low sec and worm hole space by their very nature tend to create a multitude of smaller groups. This fragmentation means that it is far less probable that there will be anyone taking up a position to protect their interests.
Way to completely take the quote out of context, let me bold that for you:
Boris Lachenkov wrote:The people we get behind are usually the social ones with a good sense of how to work in a team with others in the CSM, an understanding of problem solving and articulate enough to talk about it to CCP and other CSMs
So you see that I'm agreeing with you. Social skill does not trump the deck when thinking of candidates but it is still an important skill that you will need. It doesn't matter how fantastic you understand the game if you alienate everyone and can't communicate any of your ideas. Great in-depth game knowledge does not mean you are competent for the job either, it's only by uniting these skills can you actually win at EVE.
If he put forward the idea of an emergency meeting and CCP didn't want to then he can harp on about all he wants, he took the right action in reaction to the riots. Or are you saying that the CSM caused the riots?
And I agree that small communities breed small numbers of possible candidates, but a good CSM will actually be able to understand the current situation of everyone in a objective manner. That's what makes it so tough to actually pick someone that will push a universal agenda for people and not what they 'think' is wrong with their particular end of the game. |
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