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Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
228
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Posted - 2012.02.15 17:37:00 -
[31] - Quote
Akrasjel Lanate wrote:Two step wrote:What about people like me, or Trebor, or Meissa, all of whom aren't members of large alliances, who are on the CSM? Doesn't that prove that you are wrong that large alliance backing is required to be elected? exception proves the rule
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exception_that_proves_the_rule
FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator and other 'useful' utilities. |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
35
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Posted - 2012.02.15 17:44:00 -
[32] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Boris Lachenkov wrote:... The people we get behind are usually the social ones with ... Again, I repeat that being social does not mean that you are most competent for the job. Mittens and most politicians say what ever appeals to the lowest common denominator. He is harping on about how CSM went to an emergency meeting. There would not have been a meeting without the riots and revoked subscriptions in the first place. They didn't have to say anything special, just repeat what was already all over the game and forums. High sec, low sec and worm hole space by their very nature tend to create a multitude of smaller groups. This fragmentation means that it is far less probable that there will be anyone taking up a position to protect their interests.
No, your unwillingness to organize those groups is what causes that. Nothing is stopping your leaders from uniting behind a common cause, putting their egos aside, and making one of their own not just a CSM member but the chairman. You have the numbers. And considering what the job for the CSM actually is (hint, it's not about being a game designer, it's about communication), being social is extremely important to being competent for the job.
It's not like this is a surprise election. You've had as many years as there's been CSMs to prepare for this election. But now you're crying foul, and unsurprisingly it's falling on deaf ears. Did you expect your opponents to do all your legwork for you?
Why don't you stop your whining and start preparing for CSM8? You'll have a year to get ready. Goons do not plan that far in advance.
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Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
35
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Posted - 2012.02.15 17:48:00 -
[33] - Quote
P.S. I'm saying all these things knowing that you won't actually do them and I'll get to quote them back to you next year when you post the same tearful complaint about the unfairness of it all. |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
50
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Posted - 2012.02.15 17:54:00 -
[34] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Boris Lachenkov wrote:... The people we get behind are usually the social ones with ... Again, I repeat that being social does not mean that you are most competent for the job. Mittens and most politicians say what ever appeals to the lowest common denominator. He is harping on about how CSM went to an emergency meeting. There would not have been a meeting without the riots and revoked subscriptions in the first place. They didn't have to say anything special, just repeat what was already all over the game and forums. High sec, low sec and worm hole space by their very nature tend to create a multitude of smaller groups. This fragmentation means that it is far less probable that there will be anyone taking up a position to protect their interests.
Actually, in a job like this, being social really, REALLY does mean a lot more than whatever your definition of competency is. The entire job is social, be it talking regularly with the other CSM reps or directly with CCP. How on earth is someone without social skills supposed to be effective at all, let alone preferable?
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Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
35
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Posted - 2012.02.15 17:57:00 -
[35] - Quote
Why do they keep firing me from these cruise ship activity director jobs when I know the schedule better than anybody? Just because I stand there staring down at my shoes while I shuffle my feet and mumble at the passengers, jeez, it's like they expect some kind of social butterfly for this job. Unfair labor practices!!! |
Shazzam Vokanavom
Hedion University Amarr Empire
150
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Posted - 2012.02.15 18:30:00 -
[36] - Quote
Democracy is more than just yourself
Democracy includes EVERYONE for it to work, depsite diffferences.
Thinking that democracy is "not" about personality is a bit ridiculous I have to say. As you need to vote for someone who is representing the ideas you believe in and representing them well to be most effective. The key thing about your voting is deciding both what ideas you want represented and whom from the list of options will most acheive them in your opinion. As such you need to look at a person's achievements, what they stand for and how they present themselves to see wether they are an advocate of efficacy you want to empower.
(I'm actualy suprised the OP didn't include Arrow's paradox into the debate however.) |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
898
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Posted - 2012.02.15 19:27:00 -
[37] - Quote
So it is not pretty watching the sausage of democracy being made but it produces a tastier meal than most of the alternatives when spiced liberally with some freedom and responsibility.
I agree in Eve we may not get the CSM we want but we do get the CSM we deserve. If the majority of Eve chooses apathy over participation then they have only themselves to blame if eventually they are herded by Concord after their 3rd week in Eve to a random null system to be 'sploded as part of the "end game".
Since this is the system in place we have only a few choices.
1. Apathy. Welcome our new evil overlords and smile while they dish it out.
2. Get involved, try and change the result from within the system. Hard work, maybe impossible as a result of the physics of cat herds, but some would say the best choice.
3. Change the system. Make your case to CCP! Organize some massive statue deaths in highly visible spaces. Drop your subscription in protest. Noble to be sure. Unlikely to succeed once again due to the physics of unaffiliated cats.
So I agree with the OPs frustration. But I'm choosing #2. Let me at those windmills! My inner optimist says sometimes carebears and disaffected masses can unite, even if it was behind the wrong spork wielding assassin wannabe. I hold out hope against all logic that the slumbering masses might wake briefly and accidentally vote for someone that would represent them on their way to the refrigerator for that late night piece of roe pie and quafe snack.
Well presented case OP, I just have to try and be more optimistic.
Issler |
Jenshae Chiroptera
441
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Posted - 2012.02.15 19:37:00 -
[38] - Quote
Johnny Marzetti wrote:P.S. I'm saying all these things ... You are trapped in an assumption.
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:Thinking that democracy is "not" about personality is a bit ridiculous I have to say. I am not redefining democracy, I am suggesting that it is probably not the best system.
Boris Lachenkov wrote: Social skill does not trump the deck when thinking of candidates but it is still an important skill that you will need.
(I tend to {snip} quote people in order to show where I am directing my response.)
I can agree that being able to communicate effectively is one skill that CSM would need. However, as it stands, CCP are getting a group of people best suited for public relations not those who would would be able to filter information and give them the best over all direction.
"Giving players what they want is exactly what you do not want."
Look at each of the CSM candidates. They have personal agendas and they are saying what will appeal to as many people as possible. "Hehe, he is funny I will vote for him." "That one wants the same win button as I do!"
They are short sighted and won't be helping to arbitrate with CCP what is best for the game in general. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
None ofthe Above
63
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Posted - 2012.02.15 19:55:00 -
[39] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Akrasjel Lanate wrote:Two step wrote:What about people like me, or Trebor, or Meissa, all of whom aren't members of large alliances, who are on the CSM? Doesn't that prove that you are wrong that large alliance backing is required to be elected? exception proves the rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exception_that_proves_the_rule
Thank you for posting. It drives me crazy when people use this to avoid looking at data rationally. Most misunderstood idiom.
Tired of the current CSM? Vote for me, I am None ofthe Above! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=795254
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Grumpy Owly
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
168
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Posted - 2012.02.15 20:02:00 -
[40] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Johnny Marzetti wrote:P.S. I'm saying all these things ... You are trapped in an assumption. Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:Thinking that democracy is "not" about personality is a bit ridiculous I have to say. I am not redefining democracy, I am suggesting that it is probably not the best system. Boris Lachenkov wrote: Social skill does not trump the deck when thinking of candidates but it is still an important skill that you will need. (I tend to {snip} quote people in order to show where I am directing my response.) I can agree that being able to communicate effectively is one skill that CSM would need. However, as it stands, CCP are getting a group of people best suited for public relations not those who would would be able to filter information and give them the best over all direction. "Giving players what they want is exactly what you do not want." Look at each of the CSM candidates. They have personal agendas and they are saying what will appeal to as many people as possible. "Hehe, he is funny I will vote for him." "That one wants the same win button as I do!" They are short sighted and won't be helping to arbitrate with CCP what is best for the game in general.
Your points seem more attributable to the fact you dont like how people choose to vote and that you don't like certain candidates methods. That in itself is not suffcient cause to suggest it is a problem in the elective system.
If I can be so bold can I suggest redirecting energies where they are needed to apply purpose to your cause. Which for an effective solution will in some way be related to voter education on ideas, providing or promoting an alternative candidacy option or reducing apathy and ignorance to issues.
In essence complaining about the system we have is pretty pointless other than an intellectual exercise and you could focus your time with much more productive and integral methods. I would also personally say that to work with people in a process than against them will offer more integrity to your views, but I'll leave it up to you wether the fight for radical change is worth it. If so I would start offering ideas to alternative solutions rather than criticism.
"All griefers are lazy cowards with the current climate of broken player policing systems." |
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Jenshae Chiroptera
442
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Posted - 2012.02.15 20:15:00 -
[41] - Quote
Grumpy Owly wrote:... Your points seem more attributable to the fact you dont like how people choose to vote and that you don't like certain candidates methods. .. Hopefully this thread is serving to generate questions in peoples' minds about what would be best and to look a bit closer at motives. I doubt it matters. People will protest it loudly but they will not want to accept how easily they are manipulated.
The design of the system produces particular results. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Grumpy Owly
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
168
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Posted - 2012.02.15 20:19:00 -
[42] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Grumpy Owly wrote:... Your points seem more attributable to the fact you dont like how people choose to vote and that you don't like certain candidates methods. .. Hopefully this thread is serving to generate questions in peoples' minds about what would be best and to look a bit closer at motives. I doubt it matters. People will protest it loudly but they will not want to accept how easily they are manipulated. The design of the system produces particular results.
Please don't remove the possibility that erroneous methods can also conspire to cement views you wish to change.
"All griefers are lazy cowards with the current climate of broken player policing systems." |
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Reckless Ambition
217
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Posted - 2012.02.15 20:29:00 -
[43] - Quote
Democracy is a sham: A low-comedic dumb-show to keep the masses placated and believing that they actually matter.
Always was, always will be, and one I've long since ceased to believe in--it does, however, make for great entertainment! Hey, "Bread and Circuses" works, no-one who has even the most basic understanding of human nature can deny that!
Proof:
The actual actions/track-record of the (post-1994) government in the OP's home country, among many, many other similar actions in many, many other countries. (BTW, has Julius Malema been hauled away in chains yet as he so richly deserves?)
Wither merit? And more importantly, how can we ensure that only those who prove superior merit ascend?
Oh, and don't you just adore the Goonies' current meme of using an utterly disgusting and offensive trivialisation of/attacks on people with a legitimate behavioural/social problem to try and shout-down anyone saying anything they don't happen to like. Do any of you idiots even know what Asperger's Syndrome is? Nice institutionalised ad hominem, bru...
You stay classy, Goonies: Show all those huddled masses of inferior "pubbies" (whatever those are) how it's done at the highest levels! Hans Jagerblitzen for CSM 7! (Mittens, you may not want to admit it, but your day in the sun is over. Next!)
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Mintrolio
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
291
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Posted - 2012.02.15 20:30:00 -
[44] - Quote
CONFRIMIGN I AM AGRE WITH SOMETHING HEAR AND DISAGRE WITH OTHRE THING HEAR.
ALSO ONLY REALS OPTION IST TO VOTIGN FUR MINTROLIO, VOICE OF RAISIN, KEEPER OF GOAT AND THE ONLY OTHRE MAJOR CANDATE TO BE IN CSM ELECSIONS PROCCESS. MINTROLIO FUR CSM7 |
Jenshae Chiroptera
442
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Posted - 2012.02.15 20:34:00 -
[45] - Quote
Lyrrashae wrote:Wither merit? And more importantly, how can we ensure that only those who prove superior merit ascend?
Aptitude and personality testing. I don't reside in South Africa. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Reckless Ambition
217
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Posted - 2012.02.15 20:49:00 -
[46] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Lyrrashae wrote:Wither merit? And more importantly, how can we ensure that only those who prove superior merit ascend? Aptitude and personality testing. I don't reside in South Africa.
The French do this, I believe, or at least they used to?
To get certain government jobs, you have to take courses and sit exams, not just on entry, but throughout your career and upon being considered for promotion, IIRC.
Are you from SA, though? Sounds like it.
Hans Jagerblitzen for CSM 7! (Mittens, you may not want to admit it, but your day in the sun is over. Next!)
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Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Reckless Ambition
217
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Posted - 2012.02.15 20:51:00 -
[47] - Quote
Mintrolio wrote:CONFRIMIGN I AM AGRE WITH SOMETHING HEAR AND DISAGRE WITH OTHRE THING HEAR.
ALSO ONLY REALS OPTION IST TO VOTIGN FUR MINTROLIO, VOICE OF RAISIN, KEEPER OF GOAT AND THE ONLY OTHRE MAJOR CANDATE TO BE IN CSM ELECSIONS PROCCESS.
I propose that we all pitch in to get Mintrollio a new keyboard! With a working caps-lock key.
E: Grrrrrrrr...Windows Explorer crashed on me, again--right, re-booting, and then back to playing with the Goon-puppets! Hans Jagerblitzen for CSM 7! (Mittens, you may not want to admit it, but your day in the sun is over. Next!)
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Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2075
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Posted - 2012.02.15 20:53:00 -
[48] - Quote
Quote:(Mittens, you may not want to admit it, but your day in the sun is over. Next!)
so :shobon:, so idealistic yeah no i'm not actually running for csm7
got you lol!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
Jenshae Chiroptera
442
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Posted - 2012.02.15 21:00:00 -
[49] - Quote
Lyrrashae wrote:I propose that we all pitch in to get Mintrollio a new keyboard! With a workingNO caps-lock key. Fixed.
Lyrrashae wrote: The French do this, I believe, or at least they used to?
Even in the cases where some exams are taken, they usually rely on political "science", history and such. You still end up with Misters of transport who are too busy reading a newspaper while being chauffeur driven to know what traffic is like and have no idea how to even change a tire.
Bush senior and junior, Clintons, the Kennedys, "old boys' club" of England and so forth. The systems are being played like a well tuned instrument.
One of the problems is that usually the people who most desire the job and will jump through all the hoops to get it usually are the worst people for it. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Reckless Ambition
217
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Posted - 2012.02.15 21:08:00 -
[50] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Lyrrashae wrote:I propose that we all pitch in to get Mintrollio a new keyboard! With a workingNO caps-lock key. Fixed. Lyrrashae wrote: The French do this, I believe, or at least they used to?
Well, I'm just saying his caps-lock key is probably broken after all the abuse he's put it through
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: Even in the cases where some exams are taken, they usually rely on political "science", history and such. You still end up with Misters of transport who are too busy reading a newspaper while being chauffeur driven to know what traffic is like and have no idea how to even change a tire.
Bush senior and junior, Clintons, the Kennedys, "old boys' club" of England and so forth. The systems are being played like a well tuned instrument.
One of the problems is that usually the people who most desire the job and will jump through all the hoops to get it usually are the worst people for it.
^^And, this...It's axiomatic, practically.
So where do we find the most reluctant of leaders, and how to convince them that they need to step up? Hans Jagerblitzen for CSM 7! (Mittens, you may not want to admit it, but your day in the sun is over. Next!)
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Jenshae Chiroptera
444
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Posted - 2012.02.15 21:44:00 -
[51] - Quote
Lyrrashae wrote:... So where do we find the most reluctant of leaders, and how to convince them that they need to step up?
Psychometric testing while they are still in the education system and before they hone their ability to deceive.
In EVE? I think that is the problem. "In EVE" Every player has their own dreams and ideas of how they feel the game should be but the problem is that it isn't tempered by an understanding of game design. Their passion tends to blind them to the way their ideas would affect the rest of the game.
Aztec sacrifices were popular at one time. Now there is an altar in EVE on which some players want to sacrifice others for the gratuitous slaughter that they feel entitled to have. They don't seem to realise that cheering on these priests will lead to a lack of real gaming in the long term future. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
38
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Posted - 2012.02.15 21:58:00 -
[52] - Quote
Look at this thread. Just look at it. All this crap so you can avoid talking to other people and building a coalition. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
444
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Posted - 2012.02.15 22:02:00 -
[53] - Quote
Johnny Marzetti wrote:Look at this thread. Just look at it. All this crap so you can avoid talking to other people and building a coalition.
Still trapped in that assumption? Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
The Mittani
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5027
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Posted - 2012.02.15 22:02:00 -
[54] - Quote
is this the actual aspie from last year? anyway, in a position where persuasion matters, charisma is aptitude.
sorry about your foreveralone The Office of the Chairman: A Thread for Constituent Issues |
Jenshae Chiroptera
444
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Posted - 2012.02.15 22:04:00 -
[55] - Quote
The Mittani wrote:is this the actual aspie from last year? anyway, in a position where persuasion matters, charisma is aptitude.
sorry about your foreveralone
Trouble is what you are persuading them about! Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
38
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Posted - 2012.02.15 22:08:00 -
[56] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Johnny Marzetti wrote:Look at this thread. Just look at it. All this crap so you can avoid talking to other people and building a coalition. Still trapped in that assumption?
Yes. Set me free. Show me you've done it. All I see as a bunch of griping about popularity contests and talk of ... aptitude tests? That's hilarious on so many levels.
Anyhow, yes, democracy doesn't work if you're lazy.
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The Mittani
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5027
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Posted - 2012.02.15 22:17:00 -
[57] - Quote
a bloo bloo bloo i lost an election and someone i dislike ended up in charge, let's come up with an authoritarian solution instead of organizing The Office of the Chairman: A Thread for Constituent Issues |
Jenshae Chiroptera
444
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Posted - 2012.02.15 22:41:00 -
[58] - Quote
The Mittani wrote:a bloo bloo bloo i lost an election and someone i dislike ended up in charge, let's come up with an authoritarian solution instead of organizing
Do you hear yourself?
Johnny Marzetti wrote:Yes. Set me free. Show me you've done it. All I see as a bunch of griping about popularity ...
Wrong assumption.
You are both under a similar belief that I ran for CSM or that you think I want to be in CSM. You keep trying to attack me as a person, it is rather exasperating, like watching a child beating away at a noisy toy then looking up at you to make sure they have your attention.
Meanwhile, I am saying that this process / system produces useless people and results, which may mislead CCP. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
99
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Posted - 2012.02.15 22:56:00 -
[59] - Quote
we already had the competency review tribunal assess your thinking capabilities and it found them deficient cease posting immediately and do not attempt to vote |
Jenshae Chiroptera
444
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Posted - 2012.02.15 23:03:00 -
[60] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:we already had the competency review tribunal assess your thinking capabilities and it found them deficient cease posting immediately and do not attempt to vote
Retar Aveymone wrote: i have reviewed your posts and determined you are incompetent to offer advice or opinions, and most especially to vote
please cease doing so at once
Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
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