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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 7 post(s) |
Hatsim
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Posted - 2008.02.14 13:52:00 -
[1]
Hi. i would like to know if Devblogs are infact toughts or jsut notifications on upcomming changes, like the one made by zulupark.
i would also like to know if the devblogged do listen to the feedback made by thees blogs.
since we are facing an upcomming nerf and boosts to some ships, i would want to get some answers so i can make an decision on my gameplay. Thanks and please take your time and think befor you answer!
"imagine a dozen hornets pouring from the devil's mouth, Now imagine they have autocannons."
/Hatsim
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CCP Nozh
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Posted - 2008.02.14 14:15:00 -
[2]
Funny you should ask, this has just been brought up in house due to massive negative feedback and personal attacks we sometimes receive from devblogs that are posted just as ideas, requesting constructive feedback.
We'll possibly be implementing a new system soon, where we post on either the game development forums or the features and ideas forums asking for feedback. Afterwards when the designs and decisions are is final, we'll post devblogs, or something like that.
We really want to re-build a community around game design and balancing.
Nozh Game Designer CCP Games |
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Pan Crastus
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.02.14 14:23:00 -
[3]
If Dev blogs where actually posted more frequently and in a more casual tone, people would understand them as real "thoughts" instead of "announcements".
But yes, a clear distinction is needed at this time. ;-)
EVE Online: a cold, cruel world where (RL-)rich people replace their losses with GTCs sold to poor students who need to farm ISK to afford their play time ...
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.14 14:32:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Pan Crastus If Dev blogs where actually posted more frequently and in a more casual tone, people would understand them as real "thoughts" instead of "announcements".
But yes, a clear distinction is needed at this time. ;-)
Yea, that's not true.
A Dev can post some off the cuff remark on the forums, and people willgo and start the whine train, and assume that that is what is going to happen with 100% certainty.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Ephemeron
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.14 14:38:00 -
[5]
Originally by: CCP Nozh Funny you should ask, this has just been brought up in house due to massive negative feedback and personal attacks we sometimes receive from devblogs that are posted just as ideas, requesting constructive feedback.
We really want to re-build a community around game design and balancing.
You mean the reaction Zulupark got with his stuff, right? Negative feedback is harsh, of course, but what if the person in charge is making bad ideas? it's better we stop it early than let it hit TQ.
And you know what anyone dealing with game balance is gonna be under extreme scrutiny from the community, it comes with the job. I hope it never comes to the point where a dev thinks "I don't want to get my feelings hurt so I will not reveal any info about upcoming nerfs, better just keep people in the dark about who's responsible"
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Ivor Gunn
No One Expects The Spanish Inquisition
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Posted - 2008.02.14 14:40:00 -
[6]
Originally by: CCP Nozh ...massive negative feedback...from devblogs...requesting constructive feedback.
Wait, this is a problem?
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.14 14:42:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Ivor Gunn
Originally by: CCP Nozh ...massive negative feedback...from devblogs...requesting constructive feedback.
Wait, this is a problem?
I don't know if you just can't read, or what the problem is, but I'll explain it to you. The problem is "OMFG I'LL KILL YOU ALLLLLLl!!!!!" in response to a dev blog, is not entirely worthwhile feedback.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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CCP Nozh
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Posted - 2008.02.14 14:50:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Ivor Gunn
Originally by: CCP Nozh ...massive negative feedback...from devblogs...requesting constructive feedback.
Wait, this is a problem?
Well the negative feedback mostly consists of people whining and moaning without and solid arguments, those posts cloud the intelligent and constructive posts we're looking for, whether they be negative or positive. Err did that make sense?
Nozh Game Designer CCP Games |
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Haradgrim
The Wild Bunch INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2008.02.14 14:51:00 -
[9]
/open EULA text file /insert "If you threaten a Dev, or use abusive language towards one, you will have your account revoked" /continue dev blog /have a nice day
Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
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Taedrin
Gallente Royal Hiigaran Navy
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Posted - 2008.02.14 15:03:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Taedrin on 14/02/2008 15:03:11 /edit: I fail at quoting
Originally by: Ivor Gunn
Originally by: CCP Nozh ...massive negative feedback...from devblogs...requesting constructive feedback.
Wait, this is a problem?
No. Negative feedback isn't a problem. You will notice that the CCP Nozh ALSO mentioned:
Originally by: CCP Nozh due to massive negative feedback and personal attacks we sometimes receive from devblogs that are posted just as ideas, requesting constructive feedback
I just highlighted the problems.
CCP says: "Hey we have an idea, I think we'll share it with you so you can tell us what you think about it!"
Playerbase says: "You are an idiot, you should be fired, <insert constructive response here, lost amongst the cloud of hate>, DIAF, CCP hates this game/us, CCP has no idea what they are doing, CCP is incompetent, etc ..."
Now, I don't know if all of those things were actually said, but I do know that players accused various devs of incompetence, and made statements resembling real life threats.
The fact of the matter is that if you don't play nice, then the other kids won't play with you at all.
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2008.02.14 15:04:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Haradgrim /open EULA text file /insert "If you threaten a Dev, or use abusive language towards one, you will have your account revoked" /continue dev blog /have a nice day
Agreed! No one should be expected to maintain business with abusive customers. -------- Ideas for: Mining Clouds
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Ephemeron
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.14 15:21:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Abrazzar Agreed! No one should be expected to maintain business with abusive customers.
Then they need to keep a list of abusive customers and ban those customers from veiwing the blog. After all, a few abusive customers shouldn't close the shop for everyone else.
As for personal attacks, most of them were probably "you are an idiot!" or stuff like that, which really doesn't mean much on the internet. I doubt anyone says "I'll kill you!" and even if they do say it, they probably mean in-game, where killing people is what its all about.
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Frug
True Foundation R.E.P.O.
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Posted - 2008.02.14 15:24:00 -
[13]
Originally by: CCP Nozh
Well the negative feedback mostly consists of people whining and moaning without and solid arguments, those posts cloud the intelligent and constructive posts we're looking for, whether they be negative or positive. Err did that make sense?
More iron fisted moderation, or let people post only once.
- - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles |
Kakita J
Placid Reborn Coalition Of Empires
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Posted - 2008.02.14 15:29:00 -
[14]
I'm a huge fan of dev blogs (actually, my Eve-O link points to the dev blog section), whether they be more announcement-style or more "we're thinking about how to do this and that".
It's really sad, that in a game where the devs make some effort to actually communicate with the community, this communication is overshadowed by people crying "nerf! fire that xxxx" before anything else.
Could dev blog comment threads be more heavily moderated maybe? Everything that boils down to personal attacks is deleted, period? After a while the flamers who feel they're "only posting factual criticism and are suppressed" will just quit commenting/the game, and the world of dev blogs is a happier one. Ok, maybe that's a bit harsh, but the current atmosphere in many dev blog threads are a real turn off, and I don't want to imagine what it must be like to be on the receiving end of it.
This is not to say "Don't criticise the holy devs", far from it. But posting only criticism based on more than "But I want my nber-ship/playstyle of doom unchanged" is something that can be expected.
For the forum, and independent of the dev blogs, introducing voting support would reduce the number of threads with 25 pages of "me too" answers.
-------------------------------------- "They better fix the *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* jump *bleep* gates before I *bleep**bleep**bleep* and then some."
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Winterblink
Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2008.02.14 15:36:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Winterblink on 14/02/2008 15:36:33 I love the dev blogs. I subscribe to the dev blog RSS feed for the sole reason of keeping on top of what the devs are up to. I don't care if it's got to do with some ship balancing, Icelandic holidays, or what the devs did last Friday at the bar. It's all good, it's all fun, and entertaining.
Asking for constructive feedback on game changes, well of course that'll open you up to criticism, both harsh and constructive. Most of the time this is because most of the time the idea being dropped in a dev blog is something which has been thought about, designed, and being tested internally already by CCP. By that time the perception is that there's not a huge possibility of player feedback having any difference on the designs.
I'd much rather see Nozh's proposed method of using the game development forum to pitch new ideas to the masses prior to them getting tons of CCP brain time. Then the dev blogs can be used to present the more finalized versions after the ideas from the community have been tallied. At least this way the players feel like they're more in the loop when it comes to the design process.
Nobody's suggesting that players are the best when it comes to game design. But like it or not there's a lot of us who've been around, and know the game and its mechanics very very well. Lines of communication are good things, so keep them open as much as you can. :)
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Alski
Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.14 15:38:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Alski on 14/02/2008 15:39:56
Originally by: CCP Nozh
We really want to re-build a community around game design and balancing.
For me a bigger issue is that you guys (the Devs) don’t always make yourselves clear *WHY* you do things, the what and the how are usually clear enough, but it is often left to us to figure out the reasoning behind changes.
Three examples:
Interdictor speed nerf. This one is case in point of why it would be nice to pick some devs brains before anyone even starts codeing anything, if you had asked all the interdictor pilots who have actually flown one in fleet warfare before making this change, I’m pretty sure with the resulting feedback this one wouldn’t have happened.
Carrier hauling nerf. We kinda got WHY you did this at the time, but by far the biggest issue was the impact this had on 0.0 logistics, sure we adapted, but only towards the end of a very very long thread did any Dev even acknowledge that this change would have such an impact, and that yes – it was an intended consequence that the Devs were expecting, at that point lots of people including me just sat back and accepted that it was coming and that we could have to adapt, however before that dev post a great many people were convinced that 0.0 carrier logistics were not a major factor the Devs were considering, and that you guys were blissfully unaware of how big a change it was going to be.
Amarr boost devblog. There was one big thing wrong with this blog – zulu lists all the things that Amarr players have been crying out for – and then just dismisses them all with this:
Originally by: Zulupark The Amarr are the tanking and ganking floating rods of gold. While the Minmatar are versatile and the Caldari do electronic warfare the Amarr simply sit there and charge their lasers, secure in their knowledge that God is on their side.
Please Do Not bring RP into game balance discussion! We expecting a technical / game balance centric rebuttal of those changes, and why they were wrong or bad or not good changes, instead we just got some rather nonsensical roleplay stuff about how Amarr are supposed to just fire all laaazzoorrs until they cap out and die… or something. Despite the Amarr changes still looking quite good, we still have no idea why you guys didn’t choose to go down the paths we the players had been calling for.
Short version: Please remember the “why” is just as important – if not more important than the “what” and “how”.
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(combat) Patch belonging to CCP hits your drones, wrecking their liberty and freedom.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out
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Posted - 2008.02.14 15:55:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Abrazzar
Originally by: Haradgrim /open EULA text file /insert "If you threaten a Dev, or use abusive language towards one, you will have your account revoked" /continue dev blog /have a nice day
Agreed! No one should be expected to maintain business with abusive customers.
Signed. It is frankly disgusting the way some people talk to the devs when they try to communicate with us.
Usually the same people who go on to make rude & abusive speculations about why the devs don't want to talk to us any more.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Shurikane
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Posted - 2008.02.14 16:05:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Shurikane on 14/02/2008 16:05:22 The devs have balls of steel to actually post their ideas and brainstorms to the public. You need a pretty damn solid psyche to let loose a string of thoughts to a population of rabid, murderous sickos who will go out of their way to find a single word they don't like in your ten-page essay and then declare a Jihad on you with a million dollar reward to whoever brings back your head.
Meanwhile, other companies make games, say "that's our feature list, take it or leave it and shut the hell up", and still make ridiculously high amounts of sales and cash.
Moral of the story: players don't deserve to comment on ideas.
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Tarminic
Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand
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Posted - 2008.02.14 16:06:00 -
[19]
I think that any blatant personal attacks against developers without actual content should result in warning and then bans. Should cut down on the BS a lot. ---------------- Tarminic - 32 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.78.3 (NEW VERSION!) |
Shurikane
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Posted - 2008.02.14 16:08:00 -
[20]
Can't do that. People will be stupid enough to go "OMG TEH DEVS R **** IM QUITTIN DIS GAEM" and leave en masse.
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Alz Shado
Ever Flow
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Posted - 2008.02.14 16:14:00 -
[21]
Wait, is this the same EvE wherein the main goal is to ruin someone else's day using any legal method necessary? To paraphrase another Dev, maybe those guys should be working on Hello Kitty Online?
In all seriousness, I think it's one thing to be upset by public reaction but quite another to fear it. Players in EvE, more than any other online game, have an extreme vested interest in the mechanics of the game. I'd be worried if there wasn't outrage and agony over every change that's suggested in these blogs, because it would mean players didn't care.
The day a change is announced is met with a "Meh" is the day the devs should start polishing their resumes.
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Anacrit Mc'Sinister
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Posted - 2008.02.14 16:16:00 -
[22]
one of the problem is irregularity of dev blogs. sometimes we wait for weeks for an updated, and them get 3 in a row.
having some sort of scedule and abit of forward palning could be good. otherwise we (frustrated players) end up checking dev blog page every day for weeks : than comes a something we really didnt care for (asteroyds post and not at all the poromesed amar chenges).
this makes us rather agngry, many of us wright leters with our pets blood while others wright negative responces on the forums.
all tha could be avoided with a simple scedule: " next week: asteroids! " week after next: something elce!
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Ephemeron
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.14 16:17:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Shurikane Edited by: Shurikane on 14/02/2008 16:05:22 The devs have balls of steel to actually post their ideas and brainstorms to the public. You need a pretty damn solid psyche to let loose a string of thoughts to a population of rabid, murderous sickos who will go out of their way to find a single word they don't like in your ten-page essay and then declare a Jihad on you with a million dollar reward to whoever brings back your head.
Meanwhile, other companies make games, say "that's our feature list, take it or leave it and shut the hell up", and still make ridiculously high amounts of sales and cash.
Moral of the story: players don't deserve to comment on ideas.
How does that idea fit with the Star Wars: NGE disaster?
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Tarminic
Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand
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Posted - 2008.02.14 16:20:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Alz Shado In all seriousness, I think it's one thing to be upset by public reaction but quite another to fear it. Players in EvE, more than any other online game, have an extreme vested interest in the mechanics of the game. I'd be worried if there wasn't outrage and agony over every change that's suggested in these blogs, because it would mean players didn't care.
The point is that the amount of personal attacks an unconstructive comments destroy the entire point of having a feedback thread for a dev blog in the first place. You can't have a valid discussion regarding the validity of a balance change if 95% of the posts are completely unconstructive personal attacks. ---------------- Tarminic - 32 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.78.3 (NEW VERSION!) |
Shurikane
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Posted - 2008.02.14 16:21:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Ephemeron How does that idea fit with the Star Wars: NGE disaster?
Overruled by pretty much any sports/racing franchise ever published by EA Games.
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Alz Shado
Ever Flow
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Posted - 2008.02.14 16:24:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Tarminic The point is that the amount of personal attacks an unconstructive comments destroy the entire point of having a feedback thread for a dev blog in the first place. You can't have a valid discussion regarding the validity of a balance change if 95% of the posts are completely unconstructive personal attacks.
Isn't that what Mods are for? They must get enough practice in CAOD to be able to weed out the dev blog feedback.
I agree there needs to be some differentiation between "YOU'RE STUPID" and "YOU'RE STUPID, AND HERE'S WHY:"
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Tarminic
Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand
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Posted - 2008.02.14 16:26:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Alz Shado
Originally by: Tarminic The point is that the amount of personal attacks an unconstructive comments destroy the entire point of having a feedback thread for a dev blog in the first place. You can't have a valid discussion regarding the validity of a balance change if 95% of the posts are completely unconstructive personal attacks.
Isn't that what Mods are for? They must get enough practice in CAOD to be able to weed out the dev blog feedback.
I agree there needs to be some differentiation between "YOU'RE STUPID" and "YOU'RE STUPID, AND HERE'S WHY:"
It still seems like working hard instead of working smart. I think that if you can't have a discussion where the majority of comments are constructive, you need to think of a different way to have it instead of having mods pounce on it in hopes of stemming the tidal wive of personal attacks and unconstructive comments. ---------------- Tarminic - 32 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.78.3 (NEW VERSION!) |
Zarch AlDain
The Establishment Establishment
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Posted - 2008.02.14 16:30:00 -
[28]
Originally by: CCP Nozh Funny you should ask, this has just been brought up in house due to massive negative feedback and personal attacks we sometimes receive from devblogs that are posted just as ideas, requesting constructive feedback.
We'll possibly be implementing a new system soon, where we post on either the game development forums or the features and ideas forums asking for feedback. Afterwards when the designs and decisions are is final, we'll post devblogs, or something like that.
We really want to re-build a community around game design and balancing.
The problem is that you don't always make it clear when things are speculative or how speculative they are. For example the recent asteroids blog was great. It explained up front that it was entirely speculative and it invited player input. Thumbs up.
On the other hand the carrier catastrophe was a public relations disaster for very good reasons. Among other things it single-handedly killed the mothership market with prices crashing almost overnight (every single buyer/interested party we had lined up pulled out within 24 hours of the blog release).
Why?
Because it wasn't clear that it was speculative. The people writing it may have thought it was - but that was not clear to those reading it. A developer announcement - particularly in as 'official' a channel as a dev blog generally introduces a change that is going to happen.
There still hasn't been a follow on dev blog to say what (if anything) you are going to do about supercaps. Even if its just a speculative 'this is the direction we are looking in' - instead it got dropped like a hot potato.
I know there is still a lot of bad feeling about that from mothership producers too. It involved a huge amount of investment and work to set up mothership production and one badly worded dev blog ruined that overnight. I know someone who is around 50 BILLION isk down as a result and stuck with essentially worthless mothership BPOs.
Another point is that developers generally go through 'phases' replying to something and then they don't come back to a thread. I was very active in the features and ideas forum back when I was new, but then I realised that the comments and ideas never got a reply and I might as well have been feeding them into a black hole. It's all well and good for devs to say they are reading, but we can't see a 'dev read count' on a thread - the only way we know is if we get a reply.
There are a lot of very bright people with a very intimate knowledge of the game in those forums. It would be well worth the game design team setting aside an hour of the day to not just read but reply to the threads. Say you like an idea or not, point out problems. Actually engage in debate.
It will help a hell of a lot with people feeling ignored and will also help guide the debate in a useful discussion. One simple "we've considered that but for X Y and Z reasons we can't do anything about it" can stop a lot of wasted time.
Zarch AlDain
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NeoTheo
Final Conflict UK SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.14 16:37:00 -
[29]
Originally by: CCP Nozh
Originally by: Ivor Gunn
Originally by: CCP Nozh ...massive negative feedback...from devblogs...requesting constructive feedback.
Wait, this is a problem?
Well the negative feedback mostly consists of people whining and moaning without and solid arguments, those posts cloud the intelligent and constructive posts we're looking for, whether they be negative or positive. Err did that make sense?
i think most of the negative feedback comes from 2 places.
1. knee jerk reaction to a change that's needed, and people have not thought about it (such as the armor and resists change upcomming). ive been guilty of this in the past, in reflection its a good change.
2. more seriously, the EXTENDED anger comes when ccp start to mess with ships that A) arnt overpowered (demios), and B) nobody complains about.
in this case it really is loads of users say here thinking "wtf they change that for"... the EoS nerf for example was seen comming, something needed doing i dont know if you did the right thing, but people at least figured that was comming, the demo nerf however is justa shock to the system as nobody really complains about this ship.
then if you couple this with no feedback about the LONG ASKED FOR changes (assault frigates anyone, polycarb rigs, nano gangs - that have become twice as bad since the nos nerf).
thats why people generally loose it man, we all love the game, and cause maybe we dont see the big picture can you blame us for getting agro when you change stuff that works.
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Ephemeron
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.14 16:43:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Shurikane
Originally by: Ephemeron How does that idea fit with the Star Wars: NGE disaster?
Overruled by pretty much any sports/racing franchise ever published by EA Games.
CCP don't have that luxury
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