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Exlegion
New Light
Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.21 16:21:00 -
[121]
 Originally by: Cpt Branko
I don't see many pirates in this thread asking for moving all L4s to low-sec, sorry.
When I look at people complaining about how broken low-sec is, it's mostly carebears complaining for some reason (I don't get it, but look at who's whining).
Actually, I don't care much for low sec's current situation. I don't mean this in a vicious or mean way, by the way :). But I'd honestly be fine with it staying the way it is. But (and here's where I'd like to wage in my 2 isks), if lions want more gazelles in the savanna then give them a reason to go there, give them better grass and a healthy chance of survival. Right now as it is the risk and needed precautions overshadow the rewards to the point where it is not worth it.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Gread Lancier
Caldari
PROGENITOR CORPORATION
Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.02.21 17:19:00 -
[122]
Edited by: Gread Lancier on 21/02/2008 17:19:40
I think that the problem with low sec space is not individual population issues but the fact the corps are not there.
I also believe some increases in value in low-sec are warranted; but more than that I think high-sec is way too profitable.
With nearly zero risk it is possible for individuals to become billionares in short time and good equipment.
Corporations do not enter low sec because they can do just as well in high sec with no risk. Mining ops can be conducted in High sec and large alliances and corps can maintain supply chains for demanding capitol programs without ever losing anything.
If the amnount of ore available was reduced in high sec then the game would see more corps venturing out into low sec in order to make organized mining ops profitable. Once corporations start using low sec for mining ops the population will increase. While that increases the targets for pirates it also increases the cooperation of non-pirates and thus making the terms of engagement more equal.
High sec dwellers that just want to mine and do their missions and such can still do it high sec but not be able to support capitol programs from the realm of no risk high profit.
As a side note Macro miners would find it very difficult if an entire belt can be cleared by a single Hulk in less than an hour.
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SheriffFruitfly
Caldari
FlyinPenguin Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.02.21 17:25:00 -
[123]
Seems to me that if you want more ppl in 00, just place a LOT more gates to 00.
Instead of forcing the salmon to swim straight into the bears' mouths, give us options.
Yah, there'll be some more campers as a result, but 00 would still be feasible to a much wider swath of eve.
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Veng3ance
Multiversal Enterprise Inc.
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.02.21 17:56:00 -
[124]
People just need to make sure and not use the word "force".
The correct word is "incentive"
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Rawr Cristina
Caldari
Cult of Rawr
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Posted - 2008.02.21 19:16:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Gypsio III
I'd love to see dynamic agent qualities. They could update daily, or weekly, whatever, so less-used agents would gradually give better rewards.
This would help the Sailag triangle, annoy farmers and generally make things more interesting.
This, and put in place on the Market too so that the busier a market - the more expensive it is to sell there due to increases Taxes.
Not only would that solve Lag in Jita by discouraging trade hubs (and also cut down on the undercutting hell that is attempting to sell anything in such an oversaturated market) you'd have missionrunners spreading out, too - Left to it's own devices, Hi-sec density would be equalised significantly due to people trying to find the least-abused remaining Hi-sec agents and Certain low-sec agents would gradually become so lucrative that even the carest of carebears couldn't resist it.
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IceAero
Amarr
Shadow Company
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Posted - 2008.02.21 19:31:00 -
[126]
Make every high quality lvl4 agent in low sec only.
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Bimjo
Caldari
SKULLDOGS
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Posted - 2008.02.21 20:33:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Gamesguy
You realize we can have 3 characters/account? For example I have one char that spends all its time in 0.0, one char that spends most of its time in 0.0, and 4 others that spend their time in empire.
/epic fail in reading the report
"220,000 active subscribers representing 460,000"
ratio is a tad over 2 chars per account, not 3
Originally by: Gamesguy
No one cares about people like you.
there you be wrong (honest)
Originally by: Gamesguy
But if you moved L4s to lowsec I bet all the 0.0ers with L4 mission running alts will run them in lowsec as well. Compared to 0.0 lowsec is a carebear paradise.
this quote shows why you are not an employee of CCP
and it also shows you hav no grasp of numbers, or you didn't read the report ?
10 % in low sec
20% in 0.0
70 % in empire
So you want to make some of the 20% move to the 10% area ?
and that solves the empire carebear problem how ?
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XXX |
George Fox
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Posted - 2008.02.21 20:38:00 -
[128]
Low sec doesn't have the needed risk/reward ratio to attract people.
Increasing rewards won't work as they can't reasonably be better than
0.0 (but in many ways, 0.0 is less risky than low sec).
The solution is, therefore obvious.
Lower the risk in low sec.
make it so that pirates don't have an easy kill.
triple the defenses on indys/miners.
Make a "concord whistle module" which will summon concord
if you can only hang on long enough.
Let Concord send sovereignty patrols though low sec to bust
gatecamps on occasion.
Make pirates skulk a bit more and the marks feel somewhat safer
and you greatly increase the vitality of low-sec.
In the wild, most gazelles can outrun the lions.
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.21 20:40:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Bimjo
and it also shows you hav no grasp of numbers, or you didn't read the report ?
10 % in low sec
20% in 0.0
70 % in empire
So you want to make some of the 20% move to the 10% area ?
and that solves the empire carebear problem how ?
It entirely does not say that. I don't know if people read the newsletter or just see numbers and go "To the forum posting mobile!" but it is simply talking about how many jumps were made in given areas.
20% of jumps being made does not mean 10% more people are in low-sec than 0.0. It means that people in 0.0 move around a lot more. And this makes a lot of sense, with a crap ton of the map being 0.0, and there being a lot less hubs in 0.0 space. And with fleet movement and all of that.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Forum Joe
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Posted - 2008.02.21 20:50:00 -
[130]
I confirm what Cipher7 says about EvE's reputation, outside of EvE.
EvE is seen as a game for griefers, not a even a PvP game.
It's to the point that when EvE won the PvP award some times ago, on a site I don't even remember, there has been huge and widespread accusations of CCP using viral marketing (paying a society to have it's employees acting as players, in order to manipulate opinion / votes).
Try this : Go on another MMO, find an ex-EvE player, and ask him about EvE.
The first step to solve a problem, is to acknowledge that a problem exist.
The same goes for low-sec : if you say there is no problem, then there is no solution.
Have a nice day.
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Brutoth Tain
Independant Recon and Intelligence Agency
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Posted - 2008.02.21 20:52:00 -
[131]
Originally by: An Anarchyyt
It entirely does not say that. I don't know if people read the newsletter or just see numbers and go "To the forum posting mobile!" but it is simply talking about how many jumps were made in given areas.
20% of jumps being made does not mean 10% more people are in low-sec than 0.0. It means that people in 0.0 move around a lot more. And this makes a lot of sense, with a crap ton of the map being 0.0, and there being a lot less hubs in 0.0 space. And with fleet movement and all of that.
No but based on the two reports its still pretty much given that 10% or greater reside in 0.0.
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Piebears <3 Risk Vs Reward.......You take the risk they take the reward. |
N'irrti
Amarr
Reach Fuileach
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Posted - 2008.02.21 20:54:00 -
[132]
low sec is fine as it is 
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.02.21 20:55:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Gread Lancier
Edited by: Gread Lancier on 21/02/2008 17:19:40
I think that the problem with low sec space is not individual population issues but the fact the corps are not there.
I also believe some increases in value in low-sec are warranted; but more than that I think high-sec is way too profitable.
With nearly zero risk it is possible for individuals to become billionares in short time and good equipment.
Corporations do not enter low sec because they can do just as well in high sec with no risk. Mining ops can be conducted in High sec and large alliances and corps can maintain supply chains for demanding capitol programs without ever losing anything.
If the amnount of ore available was reduced in high sec then the game would see more corps venturing out into low sec in order to make organized mining ops profitable. Once corporations start using low sec for mining ops the population will increase. While that increases the targets for pirates it also increases the cooperation of non-pirates and thus making the terms of engagement more equal.
High sec dwellers that just want to mine and do their missions and such can still do it high sec but not be able to support capitol programs from the realm of no risk high profit.
As a side note Macro miners would find it very difficult if an entire belt can be cleared by a single Hulk in less than an hour.
Without offense, but you have ever mined seriously?
Low sec has already noticeably better minerals that high sec, simply the demand in minerals favor high sec low ends, veldspater is much more used than isogen or zydrine.
Doing a mining operation in low sec involve a lot of very vulnerable ships. A barge can be killed in 1-2 volleys, before any defender can kill an attacker, and the barge has little chance of escaping with the hold full of ore. A Exumer has a little better chance, but not a really good one.
To move the minerals you need pimped industrials, with full expanders and rigs, or you will loose a lot of time moving the minerals (using 1 blockade runner for each barge would be very unproductive) again mega slow in warping away.
To really defend those weak ships you need something like a 1:1 ratio of combat ships and scouts to haulers/barges.
So as thing stay today it is unproductive to mine in low sec barring special circumstances (easy to protect system, other activities in the system that make it convenient).
The error (in my view) about mining in low sec (and 0.0) is that the ore is bulky.
I would prefer it to be slow to mine but with a small size ore.
The single prospector mining gold during the gold rush was capable of moving large sums on his mule, even if panning the gold was slow with grams recovered every day if you weren't one of the lucky people.
A less bulky low sec ore would make possible to use a Osprey or other ships to do ninja mining efficiently. Currently you need to dock several times to clear your hold to get the ore to refine 1 time.
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N'irrti
Amarr
Reach Fuileach
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Posted - 2008.02.21 20:55:00 -
[134]
Edited by: N''irrti on 21/02/2008 20:56:21
Originally by: George Fox
In the wild, most gazelles can outrun the lions.
In EVE, most gazelles who use their brains can outrun the lions.
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Exlegion
New Light
Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.21 21:06:00 -
[135]
Originally by: N'irrti
Edited by: N''irrti on 21/02/2008 20:56:21
Originally by: George Fox
In the wild, most gazelles can outrun the lions.
In EVE, most gazelles who use their brains can outrun the lions.
Yes. And they do. By staying in high sec or 0.0.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Shemaul
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Posted - 2008.02.21 23:24:00 -
[136]
Low sec is a place with 0.0 rules of life (and death), with only "high sec" stuff to do.
CCP should start thinking about it and fix it.
One expample above all?
Missions.
They have to be totally redesigned.
In a way that u can do them with a pure pvp fitting.
Elsewhere, thing will never change.
Tons of useless npc ships, with idiotic ai, carrying crappy modules, paying 2k to 1 million (when the cheapest BS costs 60M for users) is a nonsense.
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Ard UnjiiGo
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.02.21 23:26:00 -
[137]
Originally by: N'irrti
Edited by: N''irrti on 21/02/2008 20:56:21
Originally by: George Fox
In the wild, most gazelles can outrun the lions.
In EVE, most gazelles who use their brains can outrun the lions.
QFT
If we are talking about acknowledging problems: one that's been said before and bears repeating is that high-sec does little to nothing to encourage better game play. Folks come down here unprepared/uneducated about the risks and simple precautions and we blow them up. Some learn some don't but high-sec doesn't do anything but largely coddle them into obliviousness.
Instead of touching low-sec (I like it the way it stands.) I'd encourage some areas of high sec made a bit riskier but not as risky as low-sec with better rewards to encourage more folks to start to learn how to even crawl in this game much less walk before they leave high-sec.
Contrary to some of the uninformed comments made. It's not a real cake walk to pirate in low-sec. Sure there's gate camping (which I cba to do unless I'm semi-bored or only have a short bit of time) but probing out mission runners for example requires a bit of time investment and the prey often gets away (finishes mission, is too far from the warp in point, actually has a brain and is spamming their scanner). Those of us that enjoy pirating are not all "griefers" by default. Many of us enjoy the challenges of both hunting and being the hunted, the thrill of the chase and the tasty meal if you are successful. But it's not automatic and it doesn't just fall in your lap unless you are gate camping with a HIC and even then you better be watching your back.
Sum it up: we don't need to give the gazelles more cozy room to thrive. We need a means to encourage the gazelles to be a bit smarter. Help them to help themselves rather then calling for nerfs and buffs with low-sec. Please leave it alone.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
Night's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.02.22 00:59:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Ard UnjiiGo
The gazelles don't need more enabling. We need a means to encourage the gazelles to play a bit smarter. Help them to help themselves rather then calling for nerfs and buffs with low-sec. Please leave low-sec alone and maybe try to imagine that low-sec might not be the problem - it might just be you.
Beautifully summed up.
Now to adress some of the idiocies in the thread:
Originally by: George Fox
make it so that pirates don't have an easy kill.
Should I say anything about this? "Have concord protect me so I don't have to". Next you'll be asking for concord in 0.0, too
If you so want to reduce risk in low-sec, then reduce it yourself, you have very ample game mechanics to do so. Guns work both ways, and guess what, non-pirates get the advantage of sentries (and being able to jump back into highsec).
Originally by: Cipher7
Ratting is do-able in lowsec, but only really practical in a t1 frigate, because chances are you're going to get jumped, and it defeats the purpose of going to lowsec to rat if you have to stop what you're doing and kill other players every few minutes.
Think of killing other people as a bonus to ratting ;)
Originally by: Cipher7
Ultimately the problem is that PvE and PvP are very different activites, with different moods. MOST people like seperation between the two activities. They want to do what they want to do when they want to do it, not when someone else wants to do it.That's why many ppl have a highsec mission-runner acct to collect resources, and a PvP soldier account to go shoot people.
This is the rubbish part - if you have a L4 mission running alt to make you ISK for PvP, then you're a weekend PvP-er at best, and most likely suck at it, especially regarding things like efficency ;)
Originally by: Cipher7
In the long-run I believe that non-consentual PvP design of Eve is doomed to commercial failure, because the practical application of that PvP is often used to bother other players, who are focused on doing something else.
EvE is a niche game. Some people would not play any other sort of game. For the 'consensual PvP' crowd, there's only 21321312312 other MMOs out there.
Originally by: Cipher7
"PvP" in Eve means something very different from what it means in every other game on planet Earth.Usually it means players fighting each other.In Eve it also means to go bother someone for the purpose of getting your jollies.
Unlike you, some people actually live off piracy. While you do L4 missions for a living and then spend the ISK on "PvP", I pirate so I can afford to pirate, you see? While piracy is entertaining, it also pays my bills, and enables me to pirate some more. Unlike you, I'm not some sort of 'weekend PvP-er'.
Originally by: Cipher7
Sitting 10 people at a gate and ganking haulers isn't PvP, neither is running around flipping cans, suiciding freighters...
No, but it's profitable. Although I disprove of ten people ganking haulers, you split the loot too many ways.
Originally by: Cipher7
In Eve you can only do what you want when others ALLOW you to
Just described the beauty of EvE
Originally by: Cipher7
I've personally introduced 20+ people to Eve, and NONE of them has stayed, and its always something stupid like someone flipping their can, or they lost their hauler in .4, or just something utterly stupid.
Good, because frankly we don't need 20+ people like you. I was primarily attracted to this game because it doesn't require grinding and it doesn't forgive being terminally stupid.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint |
Pantaloon McPants
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Posted - 2008.02.22 01:47:00 -
[139]
Edited by: Pantaloon McPants on 22/02/2008 01:47:59
Yeah it doesnt require grinding, so you just magically pulled your ships/mods/ammo out of your arse.
EDIT> oh i get it, ebay.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
Night's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.02.22 01:51:00 -
[140]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 22/02/2008 01:51:14
Originally by: Pantaloon McPants
Edited by: Pantaloon McPants on 22/02/2008 01:47:59
Yeah it doesnt require grinding, so you just magically pulled your ships/mods/ammo out of your arse.
EDIT> oh i get it, ebay.
EvE:
(a) It doesn't require the mindless grinding for levels like most other MMOs.
(b) It doesn't require the mindless grinding for cash like most other MMOs, given you can be rather effective in a frigate and have fun, you don't need the 34342423B ISK ships plus modules to be effective.
(c) Most fun activities in EvE are in fact profitable and sustain themselves, like shooting people who do grind a lot in the face and taking their modules, salvaging their wreck and ransoming their pod.
That answer your question?
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint |
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Exlegion
New Light
Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.22 02:07:00 -
[141]
That which you describe as fun isn't necessarily fun for 100% of the Eve population. Perhaps some people are content running missions, or mining. That which you describe as fun may be considered a grind for others. I happen not to enjoy shooting at other players unprovoked. I'm not saying that I think it's wrong to do so. Just that I don't enjoy it myself and personally.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Dessa DesPlains
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Posted - 2008.02.22 05:46:00 -
[142]
I agree with increasing the value of the low sec rats.
If CCP was to adjust the truesec of the low sec systems there would be better ore and rats and maybe someone would risk going there. Leave .5's where they are then on a sliding scale (I'm not a mathematician nor do I play one on TV, you figure out the formula ) make .3's equal to 0 truesec. Make .2 and .1 slide down to -.2 truesec and 0.0 start from -.2 and go down.
I was looking around on the map and lowsec and most of NPC 0.0 night as well be in empire for the size of the rats and the ore. C'mon now, 0.0 systems with cruisers rats and kernite with the best ore?
Risk vs reward. huh.
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Daglis
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Posted - 2008.02.22 06:12:00 -
[143]
The problem most everyone (incl CCP) runs into when proposing a low sec fix is that youÆre trying to get a leopard to change itÆs spots. Industrialists and Carebears arenÆt spending any time in low sec where they can be engaged into pvp and most youÆre never going there no matter what improvements you make. But a few might venture out there if you put the right incentives in.
Here is what I would do:
 Every current low sec system that connects to empire would become .4 and Concord would extend itÆs control to .4 Only systems that connect to Empire would be .4 Additional low sec systems should be taken from 0.0. Mostly create a gray area/mixing ground for high/low sec denziens. Allow the carebear/industrialist to get to know their local pirates and possibly come to some mutually beneficial agreements.
Negative standing pirates could freely move in .4 space without being shot at (unless they aggress no different from high sec).
Low sec belt rats upgraded to BC in .3; BS in .2 and .1 Revenue source for pirates and a carrot for the ægazellesÆ.
All belts of current low sec ore moved into .4 and current .5 systems. If there are 1500 belts in low sec, then there should be 1500 belts added to .5/.4 systems with that low sec ore.
Reconfigure Hedbergite, Hemorphite & Jaspet to give 5-10% of current zydrine. Hedgbergite would give a trace amount of mega instead of zyd. More low end minerals added to balance the ore value. Current low sec ore simply isnÆt worth any more than high sec ore, time to abandon the charade that itÆs worth mining unless Concord is available.
Low sec belts replaced with new ore which would act as compressed low end minerals (could be even further compressed by Rorqual). Demand from 0.0 producers would increase this value. This is ore that might draw more gazelles.
Low sec Stations able to inefficiently turn regular ore into compressed minerals (not as effectively as Rorqual). No compression in high sec will be possible. Goal: Encourage traffic with high sec systems.
Lv 4 agents in high sec, no change, but add new low sec corps in all factions with no high sec agents. These corps would have some items that are not offered at all in high sec such as sought after implants or faction equipment (Gist?); cruise launchers the same as CN launchers but with no tag requirement, only higher LP plus isk. Offering higher LP payouts doesnÆt work, but better stuff that isnÆt available in empireàthat might work.
Eliminate jet can mining. Not to make life hard for miners, but to nudge those who want combat into low sec. Ships would jettison secure cans with 25-75k capacity and can be opened only by corp or gang members. Goal: there are people looking for a fight flying around high sec. Lets encourage them to find their fights in low sec (no gazelle, just one lion vs another lion).
So that ore thief profession isnÆt eliminated, add a module that could only be fit on industrials which would allow secure cans hacking. No weapons allowed on ore thief barge, theyÆd have to jet in; hack and get out before getting crushed by any defenses the miner has. Only the person who jettisoned the container could attack. IÆm not sure how many ore thieves remain, most jet can flippers donÆt take the ore, they are just looking for a fight.
I'm sure lots of people will disagree with some or all of these suggestions, but to make low sec populated, it needs it's own special functions and draws. As several have said, currently it doesn't have that, it's more dangerouse than 0.0 with much lower rewards.
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Souvera Corvus
Gallente
SPORADIC MOVEMENT
The Threshold
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Posted - 2008.02.22 06:42:00 -
[144]
Edited by: Souvera Corvus on 22/02/2008 06:44:34
As a long time low-sec resident, I really don't know why these demographical stats should be cause for such furious debate. The reason low-sec is sparsely populated is because it carries a commensurately higher risk than high sec. It is NOT because the rewards are commensurately lower, because they aren't.
People who talk of low-sec being fantastically unrewarding ignore the fact that L4 agents are of a much higher quality than those found in high-sec, that the ores are of a much better quality than those found in high-sec, the hidden sites that much more lucrative and that the much higher chance of pvp in low-sec provides the opportunity to get hold of some very expensive loot.
Low-sec demands a more corporate playstyle than high-sec. To survive you need friends, friends who know what they're doing and who are willing to help. You need to cooperate much more closely than you need to in high-sec.
0.0 appears to be relatively more attractive because its a much larger space and this skews statisitcs and perceptions of danger. You're far more likely to bump into someone who wants to shoot you in low-sec then you are in 0.0 because its a much smaller space.
Those who argue that the risk/reward balance of low-sec needs to be addressed are quite commonly (although not always)people who don't live there or people who want to pad their KB stats with the corpses of mission runners.
The people who invariably call for L4's to be moved to low-sec are looking for less well equipped, less experienced targets its that simple.
Low-sec, as far as I'm concerned is operating as it should be. Its dangerous, but there are opportunities there if you want to find them and are willing to share them with others in a coperative effort.
Ard Unjiigo has it right:
Quote:
To those calling to make low-sec more rewarding: why should we? It won't have much of an impact except on a small greedy percentage that will then end up in the clone bay shortly and back here whining to have low-sec nerfed for them because they are unwilling to learn the tools that make it quite reasonable actually to exist here.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
Night's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.02.22 11:32:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Daglis
Every current low sec system that connects to empire would become .4 and Concord would extend itÆs control to .4 (slower response time of course). Only systems that connect to Empire would be .4 Additional low sec systems should be taken from 0.0 which is too big. Mostly create a gray area/mixing ground for high/low sec denziens. Allow the carebear/industrialist to get to know their local pirates and possibly come to some mutually beneficial agreements.
Why? Rather make 0.5 the shady area if you want. There's not a lot of low-sec to go around anyway, and there are attractive but small low-sec islands (with 0.4 systems) which lead between high-sec empires. I'm currently staying in one, it's awesome fun and the traffic you see feeds the pew-pew.
Originally by: Daglis
Negative standing pirates could freely move in .4 space without being shot at (unless they aggress no different from high sec).
Very different then high-sec. In high-sec, you move in with -5.0 standings, say bye to your ship (almost certainly).
Originally by: Daglis
Low sec belt rats upgraded to BC in .3; BS in .2 and .1 Revenue source for pirates and a carrot for the ægazellesÆ.
There ARE BC rats in 0.3,0.2 and 0.1 systems. I'm quite sure I saw a few of them in 0.4s. So, again, what?
Originally by: Daglis
Low sec officer rats possible.
All belts of current low sec ore moved into .4 and current .5 systems. If there are 1500 belts in low sec, then those same 1500 belts should be added to .5/.4 systems with all the low sec ore.
Reconfigure Hedbergite, Hemorphite & Jaspet to give 5-10% of current zydrine. Hedgbergite would give a trace amount of mega instead of zyd. More low end minerals (trit/pyer/mexa) added to balance the ore value. Current low sec ore simply isnÆt worth any more than high sec ore, time to abandon the charade that itÆs worth mining unless Concord is available.
Low sec belts replaced with new ore which would act as compressed low end minerals (could be even further compressed by Rorqual). Demand from 0.0 producers would increase this value. This is ore that might draw more gazelles.
Low sec Stations able to inefficiently turn regular ore into compressed minerals (not as effectively as Rorqual). No compression in high sec will be possible.
Ok, although officers are too much. Faction rats we already have anyway. All the mining stuff I have no idea about.
Originally by: Daglis
Add new low sec only corps in all factions with no high sec agents. These corps would have some items that are not offered at all in high sec such as sought after implants or faction equipment; cruise launchers the same as CN launchers but with no tag requirement, only higher LP plus isk. Offering higher LP payouts doesnÆt work, but better stuff that isnÆt available in empireàthat might work.
I always considered it silly you couldn't get pirate faction agents in low-sec imo.
Anyway, low-sec is NOT more dangerous then 0.0 (just less chances of bumping into people in 0.0) and while it can use a minor addition to the rewards, there is NO reason to go overboard on the changes.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint |
Gread Lancier
Caldari
PROGENITOR CORPORATION
Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.02.22 16:57:00 -
[146]
Quote:
Without offense, but you have ever mined seriously?
Low sec has already noticeably better minerals that high sec, simply the demand in minerals favor high sec low ends, veldspater is much more used than isogen or zydrine.
Doing a mining operation in low sec involve a lot of very vulnerable ships. A barge can be killed in 1-2 volleys, before any defender can kill an attacker, and the barge has little chance of escaping with the hold full of ore. A Exumer has a little better chance, but not a really good one.
To move the minerals you need pimped industrials, with full expanders and rigs, or you will loose a lot of time moving the minerals (using 1 blockade runner for each barge would be very unproductive) again mega slow in warping away.
To really defend those weak ships you need something like a 1:1 ratio of combat ships and scouts to haulers/barges.
So as thing stay today it is unproductive to mine in low sec barring special circumstances (easy to protect system, other activities in the system that make it convenient).
The error (in my view) about mining in low sec (and 0.0) is that the ore is bulky.
I would prefer it to be slow to mine but with a small size ore.
The single prospector mining gold during the gold rush was capable of moving large sums on his mule, even if panning the gold was slow with grams recovered every day if you weren't one of the lucky people.
A less bulky low sec ore would make possible to use a Osprey or other ships to do ninja mining efficiently. Currently you need to dock several times to clear your hold to get the ore to refine 1 time.
Yes I have mined in many places and mine simultaneously with two characters both with freighters for transport and mine in Hulks with near perfect refining skills.
While the mining mechanics is debateable I believe you missed the point of my entire post, which is not play with what low sec is, but to play with what high sec is.
Low sec will never be profitable enough to interest the majority of EVE players because everything is too profitable in high sec. Even if you put 0.0 quality ore and all the LvL4 and 5 missions in low sec, people can still be financially well off and nearly completely support capital ship programs for their alliances in high sec without getting shot at.
Corporate activity drives where population is and what the population is up to. If High sec no longer supports large industrial operations for the major alliance activities in 0.0 you have to believe that people will figure out a way to survive and make low sec inhabitable by groups of cooperative people.
As for your example of how fragile a barge is, all I have to say is if you lose a barge every mining op, what is that compared to what you have gained?
You would not need a 1 to 1 ratio of protector ships for every barge and exhumer. That is not how mining is conducted in 0.0. And there is only slightly different circumstances in low sec.
I would think that if a corp found a good system to conduct mining ops in they would be stationed in the system and therefore transporting goods would not be that difficult and they would have plenty of support for their operations.
I am not speaking about small mining gangs or solo players. I am speaking on large scale corporations working wihtin alliances and such just like 0.0 but in low sec, because they can no longer sustain 0.0 alliances from high sec.
That in itself could work with dispersing the population, opening up the game, expanding markets and lessening the void in low-sec.
But if you can sit in empire and a corp can pull down in a single mining op millions of m3 of ore in a few hours with zero risk, why in the world would anyone even look at low sec?
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Grendelsbane
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Posted - 2008.02.22 19:34:00 -
[147]
Edited by: Grendelsbane on 22/02/2008 19:38:11
Edited by: Grendelsbane on 22/02/2008 19:37:42
Lowsec is unpopular because nasty psychopaths inhabit it - they can't have their fun in empire, and the bigger fishes in 0.0 would eat them for breakfast. This is not rocket science.
Allowing players with positive sec standings, employed by corps with greatly positive sec standings, to place bubbles and use dictors in lowsec (perhaps selective, according to faction as well), would greatly increase the lowsec population. There is no way to combat pirates in lowsec cheaply, quickly, and effectively enough, to the point that 0.0 is more attrative in terms of difficulty and profit.
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2008.02.22 19:38:00 -
[148]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 22/02/2008 19:39:03
Originally by: Grendelsbane
Lowsec is unpopular because nasty psychopaths inhabit it - they can't have their fun in empire, and the bigger fishes in 0.0 would eat them for breakfast. This is not rocket science.
I dont like fish, I prefer meat and potatoes anyway.
---
Its dead, Jim.
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Alowishus
mUfFiN fAcToRy
Sex Panthers
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Posted - 2008.02.22 19:47:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Marcus TheMartin
Originally by: Tank CEO
Move all Lvl 4 + 5 Agents to low sec. Move all research agents to low sec. Put better npcs in low sec, put better ore in low sec. Problem solved.
huge thread about this already on the front page that arguement has been proven wrong.
The only thing that is proven is that people will leave the game. To which all I have to say is, so long, it hasn't been good to know you, you won't be missed and we welcome your heartier replacements.
/makes fart noise
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Komen
Gallente
Trinity Nova
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Posted - 2008.02.22 20:01:00 -
[150]
Personally, I go into low sec for two reasons.
-1 Contract targets are in low-sec.
-2 Passing through on 'prefer shorter' AP setting. Manual warps, of course.
Moving L4 missions into low sec would ONLY populate low-sec IF the players who run L4 missions were to group into dedicated corps, and were willing to fight off pirates, gankers, and random griefers. You'd have all the headaches of hi-sec (getting wardecced for fun and profit), plus negative sec status neutrals probing you out, fitting an AB, and jumping you in mid-mission.
Now of course, there's ways around that. Local, and make sure to have negative sec status shown, and keep your long range scan pinging, while managing drones, shooting rats, and accomplishing mission objectives.
The thing is, many players who run L4 missions play Eve in solo mode. Move L4 missions to lo-sec, with things as they are, and my feeling is that we'll see a population decline. This being bad for CCP, and bad for ALL OF US (less subscriptions means less upgrades and less money to pay for staff).
Therefore, I am against moving all L4 agents (and all research agents, too) into lo-sec.
Trinity Nova Mercenary Services Web Site - Nominated for the 2008 E-ON Magazine Awards |
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