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Arafelis Keikira
Command N
3
    |
Posted - 2012.02.25 14:52:00 -
[241] - Quote
I am a new player. (I have tried the game in the past but this is the first time I stuck past the tutorial). I joined because I am interested in Dust, and I am already planning to leave. I'll probably stick around for a few months, and I might try it again in a year or so. But I doubt I will ever be a hardcore EVE player.
Allow me to explain. Most of the suggestions/complaints about the NPE's information or lack thereof do not apply to me. I read the forums, evelopedia, and, after I found it, most of e-uni's wiki over a week or so. I was not lost at any point during the tutorials, and I found the exploration and advanced combat tutorials fascinating. (Note here, although I doubt most players will read it : Forcing a player into a likely pod-death as part of the tutorial would be intensely frustrating. Before I had completed the advanced combat tutorials, which do necessitate two ship losses, I had already learned about implants and obtained some +2s from the market. Losing it would have been very annoying.) I was initially attracted to EVE because I saw it as a much more multi-faceted game than others I've played, and because I like spreadsheets. I am sure this sounds ridiculous to established players, but I honestly had no initial understanding of the degree to which EVE was a PVP combat game. I played a bit of Shadowbane back in the day, but every other MMO I've played has the option to choose between PvP-limited and PvP-global servers if it offers the latter at all. It's not bad, but it is an adjustment of expectations.
Well, that's fine; I enjoy PvP games. It isn't exactly what I was looking for when I joined, but no matter; more reading. More planning of skill queues.
I realize at this point the fundamental difference between the PvP games I enjoy, like Team Fortress or League of Legends, and EVE. The prior set of games are, firstly, round-based games (matches are structured); secondly, players are granted their combat resources as part of the game (eg, you spawn with a gun); and thirdly, players have very comparable combat resources. In short, combat is, while not perfectly so, essentially fair.
In EVE, combat is by design unfair; it's much more like 'real life.' Well, very well -- but the ways in which it is unfair are by design extremely favorable to established players. Rationally speaking, developing a character with the intent of becoming a 'power player' has been a gamble since the second day the game existed... a gamble that the added advantage of an older character would either be surmountable or they would stop for at least long enough for the younger one to catch up. The odds of this gamble have steadily declined each year. At this point, I look at the game and think:
What are the odds I will be actively playing this game in a year? Well, given the six months to full year it would take to be excellent at one thing or roughly competent at several, how much of that time will be spent engaging in parts of the game I enjoy? Probably not much; solo missionrunning is dry, mining drier still, and PvP too expensive without one or both of those in addition, and further detrimental to my development (since I will, one way or another, necessarily be doing it without implants). I can explore, but that is essentially the same as choosing to engage in PvP (and doesn't seem worthwhile until I have the skill and module investment to exploit whatever I discover). I can trade, and likely will, but that's not enough to hold my interest for that long.
Now as of the time of this writing I am in the process of joining a newbie corp which promises PvP engagement, ship reimbursement, and missionrunning gangs. It's certainly possible that this will turn my interest in the game around and I'll happily play for years -- but I would be surprised for this to happen, since every element of the game will be perpetually reminding me that I am less versatile and less valuable than more senior players. I suppose I could get around this by training several accounts at once, or purchasing a highly-skilled character on the market... but I do not wish to.
Without some new market to exploit (something I look forward to with Dust) or other way of leveling the playing field, most of the cleverest and most ambitious potential players (I do count myself among that number, though I am certainly not the most brilliant star) will evaluate the game and choose to focus their energies elsewhere.
I do think the newbie ships are much lovelier than their older versions. And while I don't know if I would use it, you might consider beefing up Destroyers a bit (or making relatively accessible non-Interdictor T2 variants); enemy frig-killing would be a more exciting newbie task than eternal tackling. |
Mr LaForge
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
242
|
Posted - 2012.02.25 20:17:00 -
[242] - Quote
An observation here. Eve is too big and complex to condense down into a few tutorials. If it could be done then it wouldn't be Eve.
Stuff Goes here |
Arafelis Keikira
Command N
4
|
Posted - 2012.02.26 02:11:00 -
[243] - Quote
Mr LaForge wrote:An observation here. Eve is too big and complex to condense down into a few tutorials. If it could be done then it wouldn't be Eve.
Much earlier in the thread, someone linked to an Extra Credit video on 'Tutorials.' It raised the point that front-loading education will just push players away; the game should continue to teach people to play it for as long as possible, and leave out as many elements as possible until they are needed. This is compatible with the "flow" style of design, which is pretty popular and successful.
The existing tutorials are quite good. They aren't too long (a little on the long side for some people, perhaps) and they cover all of the essential elements of the game. The required text element is broken into manageable chunks, although one-sentence verbal descriptions of objectives from "Aura" could probably supplement this well.
The problem, insofar as there is one, is that the NPE pretty much stops there. At this point players are expected to get their information from other players. This is fine for me; I have a rough idea of, for instance, how to enter in and explore wormholes despite never having actually done so, because of e-uni and evelopedia. But Aura tells us that 'she will always be there.' There's no particular reason the Help tutorials can't include sections on incursions, gatecamps, advanced mining, piloting, and exploration that Aura offers when they become relevant. "Pilot, I have additional information for you about this situation. Would you like to hear it?"
Allowing corps to buy newbie-recruitment space in the tutorials is another interesting idea, with discounts offered to corps with a proven history of newbie-development. In-game this would be operated by a Sisters of Eve bureau.
I find it a little hilarious so many people complain about all the free ships newbies get, with so many others emphasizing "don't fly what you can't afford to lose."
Lastly, the "tutorial" experience should point players directly at an epic mission arc that runs them through some slightly more advanced concepts than the newbie missions. The existing SoE "newbie" epic arc seems okay (tbh, I haven't done it yet), but as far as I know it doesn't directly offer things like fitting advice.
EDIT : And to those who complain about forums losing posts... get in the habit of copying all before you click post. Even if you can't remember that, "back" on default Chrome and Firefox configs restores form data for fields like these. |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
64
|
Posted - 2012.02.27 19:46:00 -
[244] - Quote
unfortunately lone PVE experience isnt what makes eve the game it is today. and most of the time PVE experiences can be found in so many games that dont require the time and effort of Eve Online.
New Player Experience should be for the most part to help new players connect with other Eve Players. unfortunately this avenue is vulnerable to new players being scammed and/or ganked.
if anything a NPE introduction to Eve should be a realistic introduction to the world of Eve... not the lore of Eve. It should include an explanation of common scams and common situations where you could be ganked, eg. can flipping in mining and missioning etc...
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GeeShizzle MacCloud
64
|
Posted - 2012.02.27 19:53:00 -
[245] - Quote
also something i found very strange about Eve in comparison to other games is that 90% of the conversations both player to player and in PVE (when running missions) is done via text.
This does severely limit the emotional involvement in the game, especially in a PVE aspect. Compare silent films to modern emotional roller coasters and you'll see my point.
the addition of eve voice in chat channels was the best addition for a while for players that didnt have out of game voice comms. but the PVE experience lacks this much needed emotional avenue. |
PinkKnife
PonyWaffe
Test Alliance Please Ignore
63
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 17:36:00 -
[246] - Quote
You could do a new tutorial for each new ship type you buy..
So for example you go out and buy an interceptor for the first time, have them go through a new interceptor tutorial (optional), or a Covert ops Tutorial...things so that people have less trouble learning and experiencing the advanced classes of ships rather than just doing an all/nothing at once approach. |
Capt Don
The Don's
0
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 20:21:00 -
[247] - Quote
First, Thank you CCP Legion for taking the time to read these posts and comment so we know you are listening. That is a very good way to keep players in the game. There are a LOT of great points in here from what I have looked at. Here are a few points I have come up with. Sorry if any of them are repeats, I am not as patient as you. 
Have a sort of "choose your own adventure" background story that you can choose from during character creation. Something along the lines of Early life - chose on of 4, teens - chose one of 6... This could lead in to helping players chose their race or not, either way it would help new players feel more invested in their character.
Things are moving so fast in the beginning, how about the option to train into a points queue that could later be invested into skills. I would think this would be on by default when born. Whether or not it is automatically chosen when your training queue runs out and how fast those points are trained I leave to those with more experience in balancing games than I have (none). This could also help with player retention when you get bored with your current carrier but don't know what to do yet.
A reward system for for sticking with it, possibly something along the lines of certificates but based more on time spent. Something like "The Caldari would like to thank you for your service. You have reached 500K in skill points. We have been following your progress and see you have interest in mining, here is something that may help you in your journey". Ok, that was pretty bad but you get the picture.
This was brought up before but I liked it so much I am going to say it again. Modify the missions to be more like PVP. It would help the transition into real PVP if you didn't have to relearn how to fit your ship when you decide to go that route. Another good way to improve missions would be to randomize the deployment of ships and structures. Right now when I fly a mission I have done before I know exact where the enemy is coming from, which group to take on first, where the structures I need to get to are, etc.
I know its an MMO but when you push people into a corp and the corp they chose ends up being full of a bunch of jackholes, I can't think of anything that makes me want to quit a game more. Maybe a player rating system for a corp? It wouldn't have to be positive, negative necessarily. I know a lot of players who would seek out a corp rated "pirate" over "carebear".
Redo the overview, no specifics here because I have no clue how to make it better either. Find some Steve Jobs protege to do it, I don't know. |
Quade Warren
Urban Mining Corp
Rising Phoenix Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 21:32:00 -
[248] - Quote
I hope I'm not restating what has been said or a common feature.
tl;dr: NPC Alliances with stratified corporations based on SP level to group new players and intermediates for a common experience and to teach corporation and alliance level mechanics early on. This suggestion in no way bars voluntarily joining a corp outside of the beginner alliance/corp upon entry into the game.
Corporations within Eve Online represent a new type of paradigm in player organization. My limited experience in mainstream MMOs has shown me that guilds, though they can be organized, serve primarily to group players of like minds in order so a player can play with "friends." Eve Online corporations, while they resemble this ideal, are ultimately different. Given a player corporation that has long term goals, players come together in common focus and invest their time, isk and resources into a vision shared by the players or only by the CEO. This is a necessary evolution that spawned out of the sandbox nature of Eve Online.
Currently, in game NPC alliances can be represented by the four great Empires and their factions/corporations within. There are a multitude of NPC corporations providing missions all across known space. They are indistinct in their greatest common factor: they are all corporations that provide a player with the following: isk, LP and jump clones. Though there are other things they can provide (no need to get into details), the point is that they are clones of each other when it comes to a high level perspective. They provide nothing analogous to actual player corporations or alliances that the game hopes to drive them into, or at least what I have come to believe the game is driving them towards.
What I propose is simple only in theory and I acknowledge that. Create an NPC Alliance for each empire/faction thatGGVs sole purpose is to group new and intermediate players. Stratify the structure of the alliance so that the corporations can only be joined by players of a certain skill point level, certificate accomplishment or a hybrid of both. This is similar to the minimum SP requirement many corporations and alliances utilize.
New players, or rookies as they will be called, automatically are grouped into the rookie corporation and this is faction based. You now have sliced and diced the Rookie Help channel into manageable portions. I do not know the SOP of GMs, but this sectioning allows a GM who is experienced in the local region to provide more expert help in the areas they are most knowledgeable. Major trade hubs, places they like to operate out of, this information is now local information.
Once a newbie reaches a certain SP/certificate level, they are immediately graduated to the next GG#levelGG% of corporation. This gives a level of accomplishment that strict skill points cannot provide. ItGGVs now the game telling them GG#you are now longer a padawan.GG% From here, their specific NPC Intermediate Corporation may provide missions that are specific to learning about the game at their skill level. IGGVll detail in another post some ideas, but this is about structure right now.
There is an SP cap with a warning system in place. Once they surpass this SP cap, they are immediately graduated to the more well known NPC corporations, such as Aliastra or its equivalent. Throughout this entire experience up to this point, they have created friendships with people they can relate to, learned with and lost ships with. They have also had consistent exposure with the GG#AllianceGG% tab, which means the intermediate players can provide assistance to the lower levels still while GMs (or volunteers) have dedicated rookie corp channels for rookie questions.
Pros:
1) Increased manageability of rookie questions, of which there will always be a lot of with a learning curve this game has.
2) Feeling of accomplishment that does not genuinely exist in the game currently.
3) The ability to implement structured tutorials modeled after player alliances that will assist someone in understanding the complexities of Eve.
4) Better prepare players for the Eve sandbox environment.
Cons:
1) Might possibly detract from immediate immergence in player corporations. + this is an all encompassing statement that has radical implications for the game, so I believe there is no need to elaborate. |
Quade Warren
Urban Mining Corp
Rising Phoenix Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 21:50:00 -
[249] - Quote
Quade Warren wrote:I hope I'm not restating what has been said or a common feature.
tl;dr: NPC Alliances with stratified corporations based on SP level to group new players and intermediates for a common experience and to teach corporation and alliance level mechanics early on. This suggestion in no way bars voluntarily joining a corp outside of the beginner alliance/corp upon entry into the game.
.
tl;dr : Ideas that could be implemented as a result of my previous suggestion, summarized in the tl;dr above, that could expand on the new player experience in a new way.
Just some examples this system could provide:
1) Create newbie and intermediate level rookie missions that can have the following options:
-"This mission is dangerous, would you like to recruit someone to help you?" : This could lead to their first experiences with fleets. Scale the mission accordingly to how many are recruited and possibly implement a fleet size cap.
2) Specialized group missions: Some people are miners, others want to fight. Here are two examples of group work involving what I would consider the typical entry level corp:
A rookie corp miner gets an indicator in his journal of a specialty mission. He has to mine ore out of this asteroid belt, but it is potentially dangerous. It has been recommended from above that he not take on this mission until he has support.
Intermediate corp channel posts an opening for PVE support for a rookie miner for isk and LP. It offers the option to join by clicking a link and stating that only players within a certain number of jumps of this system are allowed to offer support. Players focused on fighting fleet up and rally on the position. Once they are in position, rookie warps into the belt and begins mining. NPC's start spawning and going after this ship, players defend.
A rookie miner gets this mission to mine what would be excessive, for them, amounts of ore out of a belt. They are asked if they would like support. With yes, intermediate corp channel spawns a link asking if a person capable of flying a ship with a minimum cargo space would like to help for isk and LP. Intermediate gets in their ship, clicks the link, Eve accesses that their ship meets that requirement and directs them to haul for the miner who is going to receive a tutorial in jet can mining.
3) Incursions are a wonderful game mechanic that do not need to be limited to Sansha. Over the period of a day, have several Incursion type events occur within rookie systems, with an intermediate player of certain certificate and/or leadership skill level (which should be explained in the journal info) receiving a notification of a "storyline" type mission. They are to recruit members into a small fleet and beat certain objectives. This process should initially be automatic as the idea of being an FC, even a small time one, would probably be very exciting. Rookies (or Intermediate) corp channel receives a notification of impending fight, offers a link up to anyone within a certain number of jumps to fleet up and to join the FC in a certain system.
There are of course basic development issues with all of the above, but these were high level perspectives and I did not intentionally go into detail. I welcome any and all criticism, but I would please ask that you provide at least a reason for naysaying. We're all trying to help CCP here. =)
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Nadja Arareb
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 09:06:00 -
[250] - Quote
Hi,
great idea to initiate such a thread! I have started playing EVE online about two weeks ago (and it's the first time I give it a try). The game is absolutely fascinating - I upgraded to a full account just 3 or 4 days after starting.
The tutorials worked well for me. I like that after completing them, you feel like having learned a few basics of the most important stuff in the game, but there is far more to discover in terms of game features and mechanics. It's good not to explain everything, it's fun to experiment and find out over time.
However, just one thing that I find problematic:  faction standings. The system (as far as I understand it, up to know) seems great and interesting. I do not propose to simplify or change it. But it seems to me that new players need more information on that, because ruining your standing towards a faction cannot be undone so easily and might cause difficulties later on.
When starting mission running after completing the tutorials, I noticed that suddenly some standings of major factions (Minmatar and Gallente) went down quite quickly - which made me fear that sooner or later I will no longer be able to fly into Gallente or Minmatar space, if I continue mission running.
I think (new) players need the following information:
(a) Impact of a particular mission on the faction standings.
(b) How standings (esp. low standings!) will affect their future life in EVE.
Without this imformation, the system of faction standings seems obscure and intimidating to new players (imho).
Concrete Proposals:
(1) Every mission description should contain a uniformly phrased sentence like "NOTE: completing this mission will lower your standing towards the XYZ faction by ABC." (instead of a precise number ABC you could use phrases like "will moderately decrease" or "will significantly decrease").
(2) Somewhere there should be a short but very clear and understandable text explaining the impact of a low standing towards the main factions (such as Gallente or Minmatar); preferably in the character dialog on the "Standings" tab, because this is the place where players go to search for info on standings. Not all details need to be uncovered, of course, but the most important things like loosing access to entire regions of New Eden should be explained.
ad (1): I am aware that there are sometimes faction icons in the mission descriptions showing that the mission is opposed against a particular faction. But these icons are difficult to find, they are not self-explanatory, and they are not reliable (I read in some forum posts that they do not always show up, e.g. if missions oppose two or more factiones, etc.)
Of course this is just my impression as a very new player. Sorry if this was mentioned before (I did not read all previous posts).
Best, Nadja
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Omar Ser-Amon
Interstellar Ministeries
United Homeworlds
4
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 09:36:00 -
[251] - Quote
I'll link here a thread containing feedback/suggestions based on my New Player Experience after 1 months of playing:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=70549
What I'd add:
I think it's fine that Eve uses a certain 'professional' language, but the fact that most game terms are not explained (ever) ingame can be pretty discouraging. Two things that randomly come to mind are Sensor Strength and Wastage Factor, but there are so many others.
One possible solution for that (besides improving the tutorials) would be adding mouseover help. (I frequently find myself clicking around bogous terms, in vain). I understand that I could google everything, I'd just prefer a bit less browsing and more immersion. |
Lukas Rox
Torchwood Archive
2
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 14:23:00 -
[252] - Quote
I have actually written a blog post about New Player Experience as a reply to Seismic Stan's blog banter.
You can read the post here http://pozniak.pl/wp/?p=3969
To sum things up, I would see grouping newbies together and dropping them to a random fleet with a task of taking out something big, lets say a capital or even super capital ship (NPC). Let players form friendships themselves. Just give them opportunity, and my idea would give new players this opportunity on day one.
I've read many excellent suggestions on the forum, like mouseover tooltips and so on. These will be very helpful, too. |
knobber Jobbler
Seniors Clan
Get Off My Lawn
45
|
Posted - 2012.03.02 13:52:00 -
[253] - Quote
Meissa Anunthiel wrote:A lot of players come from non-english speaking backgrounds.
And while they may be able to get by in the game with less than optimal english knowledge once they know how the game functions, explaining the game to them in terms they best understand (ie, in their own language) could significantly decrease the barrier to entry.
Game localization has helped for German and Russian players. If nothing else, the tutorial should be localized for the other significant languages whose speakers are not known for an easy mastery of the english language.
CCP should look at how Guildwars localisation works. Its quite awesome being able to change language on the fly by the press of just one button; and contain the support for 30 languages. |
Lianail Deninard
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2012.03.02 17:39:00 -
[254] - Quote
One of the most frustating things that happened to me when I first started playing was the occasional suicide gank. These were usually by pilots with skills that I had no chance of matching. However, I am adamantly against game mechanics that prevent this type of activity. I would prefer to have a mechanic that gives the appropriate repercussions for this type of activity. If a pilot is ganking people outside of the Jita station, they shouldn't be able to have a clone there or nearby and come right back to do it again. Loosing 1 ship isn't sufficient penalty for the social impacts this type of activity causes. My suggestion follows.
Do away with the security level mechanic, it is redundant and doesn't really act as a deterent to this type of activity. Instead, give standings hits for the ganking/pirate activities with the appropriate organizations.
If the victim is a Gallente Citizen in a Gallente 1.0 sec system, make the standings hits massive for the attacker - say minus 5 per incident (not 5% I mean 5 points instantly) - so that after 3 such attacks they are at -5 standings. Make the organizations that they receive the standings hits with appropriate to the circumstances - the victim's empire, the sovereignty of the system in which it occurs, the organization that is responsible for policing the system, and the nearest starbase (it's bad for business). Ganking a Caldari in Gallente space may only get you a -1 with Federation, but it might also get you a -2 or -3 with the Caldari.
Secondly, allow a pilot to display the standings rating for the entity of their choice (ie Gallente Federation) in place of where the current security standings is displayed.
The other two issues I had were with can flipping and ninja salvagers. Both of these should be addressed, but again not with mechanics that prevent it. Standings may be an appropriate way to handle this as well.
-a Reward law abiding citizens. We should never promote sociopathic behavior as a primary mode of interaction.-a There are-areasons for Good people to fight, such as defending their nation. Encourage people to become heros, not villians.
-a If you agree with an idea, Like it. |
Seismic Stan
58
|
Posted - 2012.03.09 01:04:00 -
[255] - Quote
Further to the community Blog Banter detailed in post #76, I've read through every one of the 29 submitted articles and written an overview of the recurring themes in BB33 Summary: The Capsuleer Experience.
I hope it is of use to you. I'd reproduce it here but the amount of linkage required would probably make me go blind.
Blogger on Freebooted.
Co-Creator of Tech4 podcast and website.
Author of Incarna: The Text Adventure. |
Chanina
ASGARD HEAVY INDUSTRIES
The Citadel of Asgard
12
|
Posted - 2012.03.09 09:39:00 -
[256] - Quote
As some people already point out there are this nasty basic skill which are "must have" skills to make proper fittings.
I'm not a fan of removing or merging skills or make them easier to train but to make a decent fitting it is a major problem with the basic skills. Most of the good and proofed setups are so close to max cpu and pg that you can't use them until you got this basics up.
May suggestion for a solution would be to change the meta 1 and 2 modules (which are hardly ever used) to some downgraded versions of standard t1. For example a meta 1 medium shield extender could use up a lot less cpu and pg and provides less shield hp than the meta 0 version does.
This way you can make decent fits without the need of the basic skills. you won't be as competitive as someone with the basics but your fitting experience would be much more satisfactory.
This could be combined with a decent fitting tutorial where it is explained when to use a buffer, what active tank means and how to get your resistances up. Show them the limitation of there ships CPU and PG and introduce them to Meta 1 and 2 as alternatives to get the fittings working.
Once started with Meta stuff you could easily introduce them to meta 3 and 4 as well as good but expensive upgrades to t1.
The quality of T1 modules would run something like that:
meta1 < meta 2 < t1 < meta 3 < meta 4 |
Khun Suway
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.11 14:00:00 -
[257] - Quote
Three ideas concerning: training in order to do a tutorial; handouts as tutorial rewards; teaching concepts in addition to mechanics
training a skill in order to do a tutorial may be a way to give players SP but the current set of tutorials does not always match the training with the module or skill required to do the tutorial. suggestion: at the start of a tutorial instantly grant the necessary skills to the player and at the end instantly revoke the skills (under the assumption this is easier to program than providing a fitted ship that has no skill requirements - see next comment)
handouts as rewards suggestion: instead of giving civilian modules that are useless after the tutorial and/or unfitted ships that may or may not ever be used again - provide a fully fitted (meta-1 or -2) ship at the start of the tutorial and take it away at the end of the tutorial or when the mission timer runs out
teaching concepts in addition to mechanics - a tutorial that teachs a player how to (for example) use a webber is fine as far as it goes - but in my opinion it would be much better to have a sequence of linked missions that teach the concepts of speed, signature, and tracking.
scenario: 3 linked tutorials; #1 ship fitted with web and during mission a more prominate display/text of the effect on the target; #2 ship fitted with painter ditto display/text effec on target; #3 ship fitted with tracking enhancer or warhead explosion enhancer ditto display/text
rewards - rather than provide incremental ships/mods, at the end of the basic course ask the player which ship fit they enjoyed the most, give them that fit, and instantly grant them the minimum skills to fly it - do this once per player for all tutorials - obviously warnings on ability/timing as well as additional training for non-selected ships are required |
Miss Whippy
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
113
|
Posted - 2012.03.15 20:49:00 -
[258] - Quote
Bring the UI into the 21st century.
The UI is cumbersome, highly unintuative, inconsistant in layout, slow to navigate, over complicated, way too much of a click fest, way too many windows, and naff scalability.
Iteration is nice, but ultimately it's just polishing an old turd. Completely redesign it, give new players something to marvel at instead of giving them something that it makes Windows 95 look cutting edge.
First impressions yes?
Time to-aCOMPLETELY REDESIGN THE U.I. FROM SCRATCH:
- End the click fest & Multiple Window fest
- Streamline and Simplify it-a
- Improve scalability-a |
aaShapras
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 23:18:00 -
[259] - Quote
I think most thing is confusing in EVE that to do. They have carrier agents, but they are a lot. Carrier Military agent provide like goods delivery. Another Military agent provide security missions. Player is confused that is Carrier Military agent and that is Carried Trader agent.
I think quest difficult should be calculated by ship Defense and Damage stats. Because by level is not enough and is look dangerous to go or just wasted time to take. So more easy will be to make ship build then You can compare Your ship power with mission power before You go. |
Blastcaps Madullier
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Flatline.
15
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 00:06:00 -
[260] - Quote
CCP Guard wrote:We are always looking for ways to improve the new player experience in EVE and a new team has been assembled for that purpose. CCP Legion has written up a blog discussing the future of the new player experience and asking for your help! Check it out right here.
I've suggested this in the past, before the char- creation screen have a flag system to allow new players to put the clients localisation into their native language and have it connect them to the correct language help channels by default, i lost track of the amount of times i saw ISD ioncharge and the rest having to use the russian message to direct newbie russian players who dont speak any english into the correct language channels, not exactly a friendly welcome to the game when you get told off in a launguage you cant understand just because the client defaults you to the native english rookie help channel and you ask a question in your native language which is natural.
also consider eliminating duplicate rewards from the different tutorial agents, do players REALLY need 3 copies of the same damn skillbook? :) maybe have it give them something else equaly useful if say they already have said skill trained or skillbook in the hanger etc. |
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Iria Ahrens
Holy Arena
9
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Posted - 2012.03.31 08:36:00 -
[261] - Quote
Kane Hart wrote:
This last one I'm sure a few people going to slap me around for and maybe threaten to stab me <3. I love the skill system it's unique but I hate it also. I have more time in my life and coming back with only a hand full of SP since 2003-2004 days and etc is already making me check out the market of character sales. But the thing is they would not be mine and I don't want them period I want my own character to be skilled up. I don't want to pay to skill and this will and may cause my overall destruction in quitting again.
If I had one crazy wish in EVE it would be to some how add a new feature into the game to gain EXP actively but not in a way it can be botted nor in a way that only the best players can get it and screw the rest. But also not to high... Something maybe mix in with Agent missions and etc. We have players with 100-150 million SP and hell I will never get there and tbh this is what pushes me away from eve a bit is because all other MMORPG's allow some kind of grinding to level and this whole passive leveling just makes me scream and cry that I can't do anything but wait and wait and wait.
Not going to threaten you, but i'll pick up on this.
The new player experience needs to tell/show new players that the difference between a 150million SP char and a 2 mil sp character can be negated with a 32k isk EW mod. It might take a while to fly bigger ships, but the time you spend training up gives you the experience and income to better fly those ships. You spend the time learning what fittings you are up against so you can choose your fights better, and you spend the time gaining the income to fly those bigger ships and lose them without feeling too bad about it. But ship-for ship, yes they might out DPS your on paper, but you can still fly ships that can kill the other, no matter how many SP they have.
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Sarah Schneider
PonyWaffe
Test Alliance Please Ignore
48
|
Posted - 2012.04.01 21:12:00 -
[262] - Quote
I've played alot of MMOs for over a decade now, what i can say is that the weird thing about Eve is that some of the things that drives away players from it are also the things that keep some (or most?) people to play the game, for example
- Long skill train to reach point X, say if i want to fly something, like a proper skilled scimitar, it would take me months from scratch, but it will also give me a greater sense of achievement and investment i made for a virtual thing that i can't get (or have never gotten) from any other MMO i've played so far
- Death in Eve, is real, in a virtual sense. This one's pretty obvious, i know a lot of people who'll laugh when they compare death in Eve and any other MMOs. Death in Eve would mean that you'd lose something, permanently, whether it's isk/ship, skillpoints or *cough* spacehonour. This in some cases, drives new players away, from what i've seen so far, mostly because of shock, my first death was 'horrible' in a sense that i've never had that kind of impact from dying in a game before. But afterwards, i see it differently, when i became a victim of people shooting at me, that would mean that if i do the same thing to them, it's should have the same impact, or if it's not at least they'll lose something and not just magically respawn somewhere. This is also an appealing aspect for me
- Eve has the steepest learning curve in an MMO i've ever played, without a doubt. That means that it has an equal size of complexity and that means, Eve also has the broadest gameplay content i've seen, i rarely (if ever) seen anyone who knows 'everything' about Eve, even after many years of playing, so that means, more things to explore to try out new things
- Eve also has one of the harshest environment and social interaction i've seen, there are practically no limitations to what people can do, or done to others, you can be polite if you want, you can be a jerk if you want, you can even scam others and it was perfectly legal (well, it used to be). While it seems like a bad thing in an MMO, it actually attracts people seeing that they won't be bound by any sort of rules aside from their own (aside from the EULA ofc). This also promotes a more diverse social interaction and gives out more chance for people to build their own community to what they envisioned
Miss Whippy wrote:Bring the UI into the 21st century
The UI is cumbersome, highly unintuative, inconsistant in layout, slow to navigate, over complicated, way too much of a click fest, way too many windows, and naff scalability
Iteration is nice, but ultimately it's just polishing an old turd. Completely redesign it, give new players something to marvel at instead of giving them something that it makes Windows 95 look cutting edge
First impressions yes?
Although to a lot of people this seems not 'important', i find it weird that an MMO this good, i mean, the graphics, the gameplay, the content are all 10/10 in my book, but the UI made it feel like i'm playing spreadsheet-online instead of spaceship MMO. I wish there are planned changes regarding the UI in whole, because i agree, as far as the UI goes, iteration reaisn't enough, this game is one of the best, or probably the best there is out there, but the UI really doesn't represent how good Eve truly is. |
Skye Aurorae
Viziam
Amarr Empire
234
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 04:52:00 -
[263] - Quote
Something I just noticed today with some newbies I've recruited:
In the career agent missions - why do the minmatar newbies get given an ammo type that's completely unsuitable for the enemies they're fighting? They get given EMP S ammunition you use against angels, why not give them Fusion S.
Caldari & Gallente both get Antimatter S which works well against Serpentis and Guristas, Amarr get laser crystals which is fine for their dominant enemies, so the newbie missions should be fixed so that the Minmatar get given appropriate ammo.
Skye Aurora is a 7 year old Girl Who Wants to be on the CSM!
Unfortunately, the Lawyers say you have to be 21, so..
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Clara Jaxx
The Dead Rabbit Society
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 16:18:00 -
[264] - Quote
Iria Ahrens wrote:Kane Hart wrote:
This last one I'm sure a few people going to slap me around for and maybe threaten to stab me <3. I love the skill system it's unique but I hate it also. I have more time in my life and coming back with only a hand full of SP since 2003-2004 days and etc is already making me check out the market of character sales. But the thing is they would not be mine and I don't want them period I want my own character to be skilled up. I don't want to pay to skill and this will and may cause my overall destruction in quitting again.
If I had one crazy wish in EVE it would be to some how add a new feature into the game to gain EXP actively but not in a way it can be botted nor in a way that only the best players can get it and screw the rest. But also not to high... Something maybe mix in with Agent missions and etc. We have players with 100-150 million SP and hell I will never get there and tbh this is what pushes me away from eve a bit is because all other MMORPG's allow some kind of grinding to level and this whole passive leveling just makes me scream and cry that I can't do anything but wait and wait and wait.
Not going to threaten you, but i'll pick up on this. The new player experience needs to tell/show new players that the difference between a 150million SP char and a 2 mil sp character can be negated with a 32k isk EW mod. It might take a while to fly bigger ships, but the time you spend training up gives you the experience and income to better fly those ships. You spend the time learning what fittings you are up against so you can choose your fights better, and you spend the time gaining the income to fly those bigger ships and lose them without feeling too bad about it. But ship-for ship, yes they might out DPS your on paper, but you can still fly ships that can kill the other, no matter how many SP they have.
From the feedback I have had off friends and family trying out Eve it is the initial training time to do anything useful that puts them off. I would suggest tying SP rewards into the tutorial missions, doesn't have to be much say 2-3M SP given over the course of the tutorial so that they can get on track a bit quicker. Don't see the harm in that.
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Aphoxema G
Teraa Matar
White-Lotus
273
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 16:59:00 -
[265] - Quote
Clara Jaxx wrote:From the feedback I have had off friends and family trying out Eve it is the initial training time to do anything useful that puts them off. I would suggest tying SP rewards into the tutorial missions, doesn't have to be much say 2-3M SP given over the course of the tutorial so that they can get on track a bit quicker. Don't see the harm in that.
EVE really has gotten to the point where the bare minimum in either PvE or PvP is quite a bit of thoughtful training and new players don't know where to put that. earning a bonus for a little involvement on first characters sounds like a step in the right direction.
Warp drive failure indicator:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=887805#post887805 |
Jackal theslayer1
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 00:37:00 -
[266] - Quote
Iria Ahrens wrote:Kane Hart wrote:
This last one I'm sure a few people going to slap me around for and maybe threaten to stab me <3. I love the skill system it's unique but I hate it also. I have more time in my life and coming back with only a hand full of SP since 2003-2004 days and etc is already making me check out the market of character sales. But the thing is they would not be mine and I don't want them period I want my own character to be skilled up. I don't want to pay to skill and this will and may cause my overall destruction in quitting again.
If I had one crazy wish in EVE it would be to some how add a new feature into the game to gain EXP actively but not in a way it can be botted nor in a way that only the best players can get it and screw the rest. But also not to high... Something maybe mix in with Agent missions and etc. We have players with 100-150 million SP and hell I will never get there and tbh this is what pushes me away from eve a bit is because all other MMORPG's allow some kind of grinding to level and this whole passive leveling just makes me scream and cry that I can't do anything but wait and wait and wait.
Not going to threaten you, but i'll pick up on this. The new player experience needs to tell/show new players that the difference between a 150million SP char and a 2 mil sp character can be negated with a 32k isk EW mod. It might take a while to fly bigger ships, but the time you spend training up gives you the experience and income to better fly those ships. You spend the time learning what fittings you are up against so you can choose your fights better, and you spend the time gaining the income to fly those bigger ships and lose them without feeling too bad about it. But ship-for ship, yes they might out DPS your on paper, but you can still fly ships that can kill the other, no matter how many SP they have.
And i am going to pick on you since I have heard this argument so many times.
If you really want to experience like a new player, start afresh, no isk, no friends and tell me if that's true, that a 2M SP player is same as 20M SP player.
A) most new players are unskilled in pvp and do not have focus to put 2M SP in a single career
B) eve is incredibly boring if you can do only 1 thing. A 20M SP character can get in cov ops to try null sec, next day he/she can get in hulk to mine, just get in a plex running ship because his friends found a good site. A new player can't. The iinitial investment required from SP standpoint is the single biggest factor why new players run away from this game. |
Clara Jaxx
The Dead Rabbit Society
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 17:11:00 -
[267] - Quote
Aphoxema G wrote:Clara Jaxx wrote:From the feedback I have had off friends and family trying out Eve it is the initial training time to do anything useful that puts them off. I would suggest tying SP rewards into the tutorial missions, doesn't have to be much say 2-3M SP given over the course of the tutorial so that they can get on track a bit quicker. Don't see the harm in that.
EVE really has gotten to the point where the bare minimum in either PvE or PvP is quite a bit of thoughtful training and new players don't know where to put that. earning a bonus for a little involvement on first characters sounds like a step in the right direction.
Indeed.
They could make it so that the tutorials suggest where to put the skills and explain the importance of them, e.g. finish a combat tutorial get 'X' thousand SP and the agent suggests putting them in gunnery support skills to do more damgage, or mechanic to increase armor defence etc. Same for the other tutorials which would encourage people to try out different aspects of EVE at a basic level without the need to waste weeks/months training for something you ultimately may not like. |
Mars Theran
EVE Rogues
EVE Rogues Alliance
132
|
Posted - 2012.04.17 05:51:00 -
[268] - Quote
Kelduum Revaan wrote:
3. Add (if at all possible) a tutorial where someone is sent on a suicide mission to losec, complete with a free fitted ship to do it in. They die, then great, and explain why that isn't the end. They don't, then send them back until they get it right.
..fixed that for you. 
I think the bit on fitting guides would be good, but keep it simple. Actually trying to explain fitting and cover a diverse line of ships is a complicated and lengthy procedure no matter how you look at it. The fact there are different rules for each class and race of ships just makes it more so
I think the most effective means would be to incorporate it into a short lesson which covered the basics of the UI and specifically the fitting screen and saved fittings. Provide 2 or 3 basic fits for race specific frigates that will be readily available and grant another frigate prepped for the next series of tutorials and show them how to save the fitting once they get into it. Simple, easy, and rewarding
With regards to the actual fitting explanation itself, a basic description of each module and why it's there as well as how it impacts the ships capabilities and performance should be enough. Also, it would help if you've made sure they would have all required skills trained by this point.
One of the problems with tutorials that I've noticed is quite often you get the skill before you're ready to train it, and often it is hours or sometimes days before you can actually have it at the level that the tutorial requires. I might be exagerating on days, but I'm pretty sure one skill and prereqs during a tutorial I did some time ago required me to wait a full day to continue
Time and continuation is important in tutorials. You can't have the only option being to sit in space or log off while the player waits for the next step in the tutorial to become practical to continue or available. I think that's an important point
Aside from that, I think a good intro would be to cover the star map with a more detailed animated scene and show the current state of affairs in Nullsec as well as Incursion sites, all in real time. So whatever the current sov status is for Nullsec could be loaded on gamestart and represented on this map, and the Intro could highlight various area and show names the names of the Alliances controling them
Following that, it could identify the position of EVE Gate with a brief introduction clip and highlight current Sansha Incursions with warnings to indicate the high threat status of these areas, then proceed to identify Lowsec regions and finally wind down into their current location and an introduction to their clone status and finally give them the option of entering hangar or CQ with a brief explanation of requirements etc.
After that it could proceed into the initial stages of introduction to skill training and proceed into proper tutorials. Effectively we're looking at a solid introduction to EVE through history, background on gameplay, current events, and a lead off into gameplay
Just my thoughts on the subject, but its been awhile since I did any tutorials and I've never really seen the new player experience as I usually skip it. I suppose you might say if it isn't interesting or engaging enough to try at least once for an experienced player, it's probably not enough to gain the interest of a newer player. A lot of that is just knowing that it isn't really going to cover anything you don't already know though.
Turn WiS into wIN! ..make all the characters Nude. |
Mather Odile
The spice MUST flow
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 09:26:00 -
[269] - Quote
I addmit, that I dont remember anything specific about the tutorials(that was back in 2009), but hey, I survived.
As I see it, you(CCP) are faced with a design/business dilemma on the subject:
You want more players/a higher transitionrate from trials to full subscribers. But the main difference between EVE and other mmos is, as many have pointed out, its "pvping might occur everywhere, you can do little to avoid this completely and your losses will have an heavy impact on your young carachter" This appeals only to so many people, but how many are out there, still looking for it? Have you considered, that you already have accumulated most people with the neccesarry mindset? Of course, individual people change over the years and new ones are born, but have you any idea, how much potentil subscribers are out there, who crave after this? By giving in on the crave for more subscribers, you are bound to get more people who will complain about highsec pvp and the like. Despite the obvious pvping part of EVE, I think that a lot of people try out mmos with the mindset of doing an pve game with inbuild chatchannels. You would have to abandon a lot of your sandbox in order to sepparate these different playerbases.
A possible solution would be, to keep(and evolve) EVE as a game with heavy pvp and create another game for the pve-only crowds out there. As a company on a whole, I think thats what you are already doing with Dust for the console players. Have that as a mainstream cashcow(if thats what your investors begg you for). Trying to push the population of EVE with your standart wow crowd will at some point tipp the balance of raised voices in favour of "bann unconsensual pvp completely".
That was not really about tutorials, but this dilemma has to be decided upon, before you know what kind of people you want to attract through the tutorials.
A personell point about risk aversenes: Its tempting to pay through ingame currency, but that is a heavy strain on (young) caracters, making the idea of voluntaryly losing ships on a constant basis(read doing pvp) almost a no go. Thus, the ones on the buying end of plexes are discouraged from pvp to some degree.
Right now, I think I am mainly an pve guy, so dont listen to me when I ask for simplifications or speed ups. My brand is not the one making EVE special, you should care about the ones willing to blow up their own and other spaceships.
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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex
Cosmic Consortium
1514
|
Posted - 2012.06.16 11:25:00 -
[270] - Quote
Waaaay too late in the piece, I know. If anyone from CCP is reading this, Crompton Aberforth posted a thread back when she started playing about the issues she was having with the NPE: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=53598
Day 0 advice for new players: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=77176 |
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