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Zimarla
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.02.28 21:19:00 -
[1]
I'm new, but I'm also a roleplayer, and I find myself asking what sorts of things from Old Earth have survived thousands of years and light-years to reach the world of EVE? For example, I wouldn't want to start talking about my character's pet goldfish only to find out that there are no goldfish in EVE.
I mean, I can go to the trade goods and see livestock (represented by a cow) and dairy products, so it's fairly certain that cattle were brought when EVE was colonized, along with several of the other trade goods. Which makes perfect sense to me: every time someone colonized a new place on this planet, they took livestock with them, and I can't imagine a reason for that to change in space. However, a lot of things, like my goldfish example, are more questionable. And it's not just animals and consumer products that are left up in the air.
No matter what the Gallente want to believe, EVE society is very Machiavellian. But would anyone in EVE know what I meant if I were to say that in-character? Do copies of Machiavelli's The Prince still exist in libraries, archives, or museums? What about Shakespeare's plays, or Robert Frost's poems? Things like these have survived decades and centuries as examples of important literature, but would they have survived millennia and light-years?
I know those are rather specific examples, but I think it would help folks like me if we could get at least a general idea of what stuff from our present-day lives and culture might have survived into the EVE universe. Any ideas?
(And if there's another topic on this somewhere, please just point me in the right direction and disregard this one.)
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Zimarla
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.02.28 21:19:00 -
[2]
I'm new, but I'm also a roleplayer, and I find myself asking what sorts of things from Old Earth have survived thousands of years and light-years to reach the world of EVE? For example, I wouldn't want to start talking about my character's pet goldfish only to find out that there are no goldfish in EVE.
I mean, I can go to the trade goods and see livestock (represented by a cow) and dairy products, so it's fairly certain that cattle were brought when EVE was colonized, along with several of the other trade goods. Which makes perfect sense to me: every time someone colonized a new place on this planet, they took livestock with them, and I can't imagine a reason for that to change in space. However, a lot of things, like my goldfish example, are more questionable. And it's not just animals and consumer products that are left up in the air.
No matter what the Gallente want to believe, EVE society is very Machiavellian. But would anyone in EVE know what I meant if I were to say that in-character? Do copies of Machiavelli's The Prince still exist in libraries, archives, or museums? What about Shakespeare's plays, or Robert Frost's poems? Things like these have survived decades and centuries as examples of important literature, but would they have survived millennia and light-years?
I know those are rather specific examples, but I think it would help folks like me if we could get at least a general idea of what stuff from our present-day lives and culture might have survived into the EVE universe. Any ideas?
(And if there's another topic on this somewhere, please just point me in the right direction and disregard this one.)
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Endymnion
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Posted - 2008.02.28 22:19:00 -
[3]
What does a minmatar slave care about great works of art? Get back to work or prepare to feel my lash on your back.
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Joao Duarte
DragonStorm Consortium
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Posted - 2008.02.28 23:57:00 -
[4]
Zimarla, space and time have made it very hard to bump into one such relic. Of course you won't find them in antique stores, but I guess that the wealthy tycoons of EVE will have their luxuries, including millenia-old books, movies and other works of art. It is not hard to think that on the initial exodus from Earth people brought with them all kinds of stuff, maybe even goldfishes... There is a page of rare stuff in EVE somewhere, but I don't have the link with me right now, maybe someone else can put it up here.
As for this pearl:
 Originally by: Endymnion
What does a minmatar slave care about great works of art? Get back to work or prepare to feel my lash on your back.
Mr. Endymnion seems to forget the small detail that some of us minmatar lashed back, and hard, and are now free from oppression. But it's always weird to see that amarr slave masters maintain their mediocrity and complete lack of respect for the human being.
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Zimarla
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.02.29 04:42:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Zimarla on 29/02/2008 04:45:46
Originally by: Endymnion
What does a minmatar slave care about great works of art? Get back to work or prepare to feel my lash on your back.
I'm a loyal Ammatar. I certainly don't seek to move above my station, but the preservation of the things of greatness is one of the things the Empire prides itself on, correct? If you have, say, an Andy Warhol painting among your collection, wouldn't it be better that your servants know its significance and how to care for it properly?
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Carcosa Hali
Naqam
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Posted - 2008.02.29 14:05:00 -
[6]
The things most likely to have survived will probably be songs, fairy tales and other oral traditions. Take the song "House of the Rising Sun".. that tune has been traced back to the 1500's.. So children will still sing "Ring around the Rosie" and know about Frankenstein, Dracula, Jekyll and Hyde, The tell-tale Heart.. all those sorts of things.
I would say that you can go ahead and refer to Machiavelli just because it's something all us players know. Same thing with Lao-Tzu; some ideas and works are so great that they are virtually assured to be preserved by someone. Also there are things which simply can't be lived without, and would therefore be re-invented.. like hot-sauce and industrial music.
So you'll have Cubism, cheese, and turtle neck sweaters, no problem. Some things may be gone, but remembered in myth, such as wolves and neckties. A good place to look is ship names and the starmap.. There is a constellation named Cat for instance.
Honestly, as long as you aren't talking about Vanilla Ice, I think everyone will let most things pass. 
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Sometimes you lose it all...
Sacrifice: Full Text |
Viktor Fyretracker
Caldari
Worms Corp
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Posted - 2008.02.29 23:05:00 -
[7]
well nuclear weapons for one(explosive damage), guns have survived though are now much larger, the Metric System, the desire to kill eachother over resources and beliefs, and of course a big one Mega Corporations(and we do have them IRL, look at GE).
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machiavelian
Synergy Evolved
Daisho Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.03.05 22:44:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Zimarla
I'm new, but I'm also a roleplayer, and I find myself asking what sorts of things from Old Earth have survived thousands of years and light-years to reach the world of EVE? For example, I wouldn't want to start talking about my character's pet goldfish only to find out that there are no goldfish in EVE.
I mean, I can go to the trade goods and see livestock (represented by a cow) and dairy products, so it's fairly certain that cattle were brought when EVE was colonized, along with several of the other trade goods. Which makes perfect sense to me: every time someone colonized a new place on this planet, they took livestock with them, and I can't imagine a reason for that to change in space. However, a lot of things, like my goldfish example, are more questionable. And it's not just animals and consumer products that are left up in the air.
No matter what the Gallente want to believe, EVE society is very Machiavellian. But would anyone in EVE know what I meant if I were to say that in-character? Do copies of Machiavelli's The Prince still exist in libraries, archives, or museums? What about Shakespeare's plays, or Robert Frost's poems? Things like these have survived decades and centuries as examples of important literature, but would they have survived millennia and light-years?
I know those are rather specific examples, but I think it would help folks like me if we could get at least a general idea of what stuff from our present-day lives and culture might have survived into the EVE universe. Any ideas?
(And if there's another topic on this somewhere, please just point me in the right direction and disregard this one.)
yes, the EVE universe is very Machiavellian.
From what i have read, there are a few things that were left over, but most of the information about Earth was lost during the dark ages after the collapse of the EVE gate. I would suspect that there are relics of earth still around, buried in the homeworlds or in nearby systems.
As for the goldfish example, think of it like the matrix. this far in the future, is the goldfish the same goldfish as we have now? how can we know what a goldfish is that far in the future, if all that information is lost?
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Marcus Dreddlin
Gallente
Vector Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.03.11 12:35:00 -
[9]
Art doesn't answer to anyone. Write what you feel. Who cares if someone doesn't like it, or even if they do? Let it stand on it's own merits. If you want goldfish in Eve, put 'em in dammit! :)
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Inmei T'ko
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Posted - 2008.03.11 12:38:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Inmei T''ko on 11/03/2008 12:38:41
For all that, Eve isn't truly Machiavellian. It's more sociopathic, or perhaps psychopathic. This is due to the fact that because the game mechanics are broken, there are really no consequences for anyone's bad actions. So people feel free to be jerks. Wow, people are jerks. What an innovation.
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John Ahriman
Caldari
Eve University
Ivy League
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Posted - 2008.03.11 15:50:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Viktor Fyretracker
well nuclear weapons for one(explosive damage), guns have survived though are now much larger, the Metric System, the desire to kill eachother over resources and beliefs, and of course a big one Mega Corporations(and we do have them IRL, look at GE).
I genuinely doubt that knowledge of nuclear weapons and firearms survived. More likely is that they were lost and then rediscovered. That they existed in the past may not have been forgotten, but it was highly likely that the specific knowledge needed to construct them, especially nukes, was forgotten.
And I would doubt that any literature at all would have survived. Given that there was an 8000 year gap between when everything went to hell, and people rebuilding civilisation, I would think that almost EVERYTHING was lost, and humanity went back to wearing skins and using clubs, and had to relearn everything, including literacy. I think the measuring system "survival" is actualy a concession to us, the players. The one unit of measurment that I really can see surviving, or at least being rediscovered in its present form, is the Radian. By its very nature, it would probably be revived.
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I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy. |
FarScape III
Journey On Squad
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Posted - 2008.03.14 14:50:00 -
[12]
I'm sure reading the Chronicles help allot. and here is the handy pdf file of all that type of stuff in one spot to read like a book http://download.eve-online.com/pdf/eve_v1.4_black.pdf You can also fine these links on this page->http://www.eve-online.com/background/
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Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
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Posted - 2008.03.14 16:40:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 14/03/2008 16:41:09
Assume we know nothing. That nothing survived.
Look how little we know of 20,000 years ago, and that is with archaeological evidence still somewhat intact. EVE doesn't even have the possibility of digging up Terra.
Oral tradition does not survive without massive change for 10,000 years, especially when a complete dark age is involved, and when the archaeological remains of their past cannot be found. (Other side of the EVE gate)
The oral tradition is unlikely to date back to the dark age, let alone beyond it.
A character who specializes in ancient archeology might know a few details, just like someone specializing in greek history today can talk about the mycaneans and minoans.
I expect a common historians explanation in EVE for things they cant understand in early EVE societies is "it must be terran."
But it is unlikely in the extreme that anything significant to any of the cultures in EVE dates back to Terra.
So assume no The Prince. Though there are almost certainly writers in the EVE universe who wrote on a similar topic.
In literature, the Amarrian scriptures do not date back to before the dark ages, and they are some of the oldest material extant to people in EVE.
With animals and such. If it is not a trade good, as "Would this be useful to a colonist/survive a dark age?" If the answer is no. Assume no.
Deus Vult!
PIE Website Public Channel: 'PIE Public' |
Aiden Xiomara
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.03.14 17:54:00 -
[14]
It's unfortunate, but I have to believe that any pieces of art or literature brought through the EVE gate didn't survive the approximate 8000 years without civilization in New Eden. So to answer your question, no, I wouldn't make any direct references to Machiavelli or The Prince.
If it helps at all, I feel your pain. I'm in the process of writing an epic, and I wanted to reference The Count of Monte Cristo. The way I see it, we can do one of two things in this situation. We can say screw it, and just blatantly reference the work of literature or art as is, or we can reproduce the piece in New Eden form. Basically, if you really want to use a piece of work such as The Prince in your story, make reference to a book of a similar name written by a young Amarrian during the Amarrian renaissance. People who are paying attention will pick-up on what you are doing, without you having to try to explain how a copy of The Prince survived in New Eden.
Living creatures are a different matter altogether. I think anyone can make an argument for just about any animal on Earth being in New Eden, however, you have to bear in mind that the animal in question will have changed drastically. If your goldfish is still around, it isn't the same goldfish anymore. It would have had to evolve to survive in whatever habitat it found itself in. The one advantage to something like this is that we have the ability to take any animal found on Earth today and change it into whatever form we want, not to mention the ability to come up with new creatures at will. In other words, you have the ability to come up with the new generic goldfish. Have fun.
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Joao Duarte
DragonStorm Consortium
Solaris Consortium
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Posted - 2008.03.17 12:20:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Joao Duarte on 17/03/2008 12:22:07
Well, I don't agree with the idea that no art survived since before the dark ages. Comparisons with current real world archeology is wrong simply because of the technological difference between egiptions or neanderthals and space faring humans.
I find it very easy to believe that relics from 10000 years back can survive, even if inside ages-old spaceships lost in New eden, or sculptures in planets. Remember the number of colonists that crossed the EVE gate is huge, with both poor people but also millionairs and wealthy military, who I would guess would have brought plenty of art with them on the trip.
Also, check this
Linkage
for a follow-up on the EVE book.
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Aiden Xiomara
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.03.17 19:51:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Aiden Xiomara on 17/03/2008 19:54:38
Edited by: Aiden Xiomara on 17/03/2008 19:53:06
All I'm saying is, New Eden went through an 8000 year period without civilization. During a time period of this magnitude where the entire populace is basically made up of cave men, it's hard for me to imagine that any art survived.
Of course, anyone can argue that something made it. You could write an elaborite history of how the Mona Lisa was put into a "special case" on Earth in 3305, then was transferred to New Eden to planet IV in some nameless system. This "special case" allows it to survive until someone stumbles across it on their travels in the year 20xxx. Whatever. It's up to you. Unfortunately, if you're going to do this, you've got some explaining to do. First, what's the special case made of that allowed it to perfectly preserve the Mona Lisa for so long? Second, why did it get moved to New Eden? Third, and this is the real challenge, no one knows what the Mona Lisa is anymore (although, the "special case" will probably lend some clues to its significance).
Note that the Mona Lisa is just an example. Anyone who tries to bring back some artistic relic from our time is going to have the same or similar problems. Sculptures ***** and wear down, returning to dust after an extensive period of time. Books are easier to explain, as multiple copies of any book are sure to have made it through the Eve gate, however, they're also very fragile. A book would have to have been in a similar "special case," lest it be burned, or decompose over time.
I'm not saying it's impossible, or that you shouldn't try to bring back art or artifacts from our time. I'm just saying that it would be difficult, and unless you're writing specifically about that artifact, the story you're writing is going to get bogged down in the details of this one trinket.
That said, I'm still not entirely sure what I'm going to do personally. I would love to write that someone put The Count of Monte Cristo away, in a place where it could have been preserved for millenia, but the fact is, these people didn't know that the Eve gate was going to close. They didn't realize their peril, and afterwards, they were most likely to caught up in the chaos to preserve their most beloved artifacts.
Edit: Cr4ck is a swear? I wasn't aware. I'll stop ryming now, lest I write a poem about the filters.
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Joao Duarte
DragonStorm Consortium
Solaris Consortium
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Posted - 2008.03.19 18:19:00 -
[17]
Well, books and paintings would crumble during that time, I'm sure, if unatended. Not metal sculptures though.
Still, I'm not familiar with that cave-man period... dark ages doesn't equal cave man. It is a relative term, as in falling from sprawling empires to self centered and ignorant countries (like the medieval times), or falling from space faring huge empires (before EVE gate colapse) to planet-bound civilizations (after EVE gate colapse). Doesn't mean people started living in caves, or that they would actually be less technologically advanced than we are in real life right now.
Unless there really was an extreme retrocess after the explosion of the gate. In that case show me the link for that chronicle/article and I'll retract my thoughts.
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Brolo
VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD
Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2008.03.20 13:39:00 -
[18]
Timely topic as I've been having a go at some writing & wondering the same.
From my view, some artifacts may have survived but they'd be extremely rare & perhaps don't have the significance they do today. Take coprolites as an example. They have some value to collectors, some value to paleontologists but to many people they're just a funny shaped rock & when first formed, would have little intrinsic value.
Suppose our intrepid scavenger stumbles across a strangely preserved cache & uses an old cloth with a picture of some grumpy woman on it to wrap up a Coke can, because the can looks more valuable.
I think there's some fun to be had playing with intrinsic vs cultural or scarcity values, but not to overdo it & have some explanation for how it survived. Some things probably wouldn't, but collectors are sometimes irrational & look at the 'value' of things attached to artifacts dug out of midden pits.
Books I guess would be the same, there'd be the challenge of physically preserving 'a book' & the more likely candidates I guess would be the classics. But there's also things like Project Gutenberg that's transferred 20K+ books to electronic versions. They may be more survivable & could be periodically re-encoded. So the Prince may exist as an ebook in an archive, but the majority prefer the more recognised & superior Amarr works.
(or how would something like The Illuminatus Trilogy be interpreted in 8,000 years time, assuming it survived?)
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Aiden Xiomara
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.03.21 16:10:00 -
[19]
Joao, I'm happy to comply.
Caldari Timeline
If you look at any one of the four racial timelines, you'll notice a period of at least 8000 years where each races timeline is simply blank. Each of these blank spaces is preceded by the closing of the Eve-Gate, and followed by some version of civilization restarting. In the Caldari one specifically, it notes that "Eve Closes" in 8061 AD, and the "First recorded civilizations emerge on Caldari" in 16262 AD. Other timelines, such as the Minmitar one, reference the extremely limited technology that was available some 10000 years after the close of the Eve-Gate.
So, while it wouldn't be impossible for certain items to have made it, the people of New Eden would have no knowledge of their significance.
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Joao Duarte
Orion Trade Syndicate
Solaris Consortium
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Posted - 2008.03.21 18:19:00 -
[20]
Well, I have to agree that yes, it seems that people really went back to the caves after the gate closed. Which is extremely interesting, just thinking on a decline like that is mind boggling. I didn't perceived EVE history like that at all.
So yes, it is pratically impossible for art to have survived. Excavations might unveil some artifacts, but I'm guessing that would be extremelly improbable, as would be the existence of lost ghost ships from that time floating around in space...
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.03.24 17:06:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Pottsey on 24/03/2008 17:07:59
"All I'm saying is, New Eden went through an 8000 year period without civilization."
Thats not right many civilization where around like the Yan Jung.
Not all the races went back to the caves. The 4 well known raceÆs where close to the gate and hit hard. The further away empires where more built up and self sustained along with not being hit by the gate blast. They didnÆt suffer a dark age or not as bad if they did. It wouldnÆt surprise me if both the Jove and Enheduanni have many details and items from earth.
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ôToo many times. Too many times have the addictions of man destroyed the progress of ages. History is about to fail us again, and deny us the right to walk among you once more.ö |
Shanas Vakeiku
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.03.24 20:33:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Pottsey
Edited by: Pottsey on 24/03/2008 17:07:59
"All I'm saying is, New Eden went through an 8000 year period without civilization."
Thats not right many civilization where around like the Yan Jung.
We don't know when or from where the Yan Jung, Talocan, Takmahl, or Sleeper civilizations originated from. For all we know, they may well have been factions from the Old World that had established a presence in New Eden, before dying off not long after the collapse of EVE - though I think I remember reading something indicating that those races did survive the initial devastation and maintained flight capability for some time. |
Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.03.24 23:30:00 -
[23]
The Yan Jung stuff dates back a few 1000 years if I recall correctly. This puts them way after the Eve gate collapse. It also puts them inside the 8000 year period without civilization only they where a space fairing civilization during this time.
____
ôToo many times. Too many times have the addictions of man destroyed the progress of ages. History is about to fail us again, and deny us the right to walk among you once more.ö |
Shanas Vakeiku
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.03.25 01:39:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Pottsey
The Yan Jung stuff dates back a few 1000 years if I recall correctly. This puts them way after the Eve gate collapse. It also puts them inside the 8000 year period without civilization only they where a space fairing civilization during this time.
Is there any dating given? I must have missed it... at any rate, "thousands" of years could place them anywhere from this 8,000-year "sans-civilization" period, to the collapse of EVE 15,000 years ago. It's also never said that they existed during the same time period as each other, though that seems to be the assumption.
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Havok Dryke
Golden Gavel Enterprises
The Cooperative
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Posted - 2008.03.25 06:58:00 -
[25]
I have in my possession an invaluable artifact of Old Earth.... it has been a family heirloom for generations (my ancestors locked it away when the gate blew, they knew how things would degenerate). The artifact is called a "Twinkie", and seems to be have been used as some sort of food source (although I personally have doubts as to who would eat such a thing). Amazingly, it has suffered no breakdown or souring at all in the last 8000 years or so. My family had it analyzed, and the scientists said that its durability was a result of both rubber and a synthesized form of formaldehyde being used in the baking. Again, I have no idea who would eat such a thing, but we do treasure it as a piece of our lost past.
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EVE is a cold, harsh world, filled with people that would kill you without a second thought. The forums are even worse. |
Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.03.25 07:25:00 -
[26]
ôis there any dating given? I must have missed it... at any rate,ö
I seem to recall some of the Yan Jung stuff saying stuff like this power source has been running for 2000 years by its self and still going. This micro processor is 2000 years old. But itÆs been over a year since I visited the ruins, need to head back and jog my memory.
____
ôToo many times. Too many times have the addictions of man destroyed the progress of ages. History is about to fail us again, and deny us the right to walk among you once more.ö |
Gervais Zhang
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Posted - 2008.03.29 13:23:00 -
[27]
Something that Gaven pointed out some time ago in a similar thread that I thought was very incisive is the ease of decay associated with electronic media. As time wears on, we entrust more and more of our data storage to various electronic media, yet electronic media is far harder to preserve over time than traditional ways to record information. Unless new forms of electronic media are invented that better survive the test of time, it seems likely that a cataclysm such as that experienced in New Eden would result in a loss of information without parallel in human history. The burning of the Great Library of Alexandria and the destruction of the Persian libraries by the Mongols would seem insignificant in comparison.
For purely aesthetic purposes, I'd like to think enough human history and philosophy as we know it exist in New Eden to make literary allusions and historical examples possible. However much I would like it, however, it seems unlikely that very much survived.
 Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
Nachshon
Gradient
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.04.04 21:08:00 -
[28]
Here's my thinking:
I have a doubt that after the wormhole collapse, any of the planets lost literacy. Evidence indicates that EVE's civilizations all use the Latin alphabet - otherwise, they would not be able to read the inscription on the EVE Gate.
With that in mind, many stories - particularly books - might have made it. Does it seem unreasonable that as their computers began to degrade, they made hard copies of important data - and some book-lover made hard copies of the great novels? Stories like the great Shakespearean plays would probably survive, especially in Gallentean culture. The Amarr would preserve much of the Bible. And I've theorized that the Caldari never entirely lost technology - how else did they survive on a planet that wasn't terraformed?
What is also probable is that many stories would have been recreated in some form. A political treatise a la The Prince could have emerged out of Gallente or Caldari society. Given that EVE society has been a technological society longer than ours, it's likely that almost any story in our society has a parallel in theirs. And even historical stories could survive as legends - those that have meaning beyond their circumstances. I could see Thermopylae being retold and exaggerated.
____________________________________
Caldari by birth, Minmatar by citizenship.
The True Meaning of Freedom
My v |
Pottsey
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Posted - 2008.04.06 09:26:00 -
[29]
ôCaldari never entirely lost technology - how else did they survive on a planet that wasn't?ö
ItÆs mentioned in the background the terraform equipment was automatic and self sustaining. The background said the equipment continued to terraformed planets even when the population lost all understanding and technology to use it. Now if that can run on auto and survive you would think other object would last.
http://www.eve-online.com/races/caldari_timeline.asp
Look at the year 8307.
____
ôToo many times. Too many times have the addictions of man destroyed the progress of ages. History is about to fail us again, and deny us the right to walk among you once more.ö |
Mithfindel
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Posted - 2008.04.06 21:05:00 -
[30]
Some jump gates are from the pre-collapse period. At least the gates used by the Minmatar to colonize their three systems before the Amarr found them were either in working condition or in a good condition enough that the Minmatar could repair them. There is also some hints that the Amarr gates are reverse-engineered from an ancient model.
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