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Topic |
Plave Okice
Gallente
Red.
Red Republic
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Posted - 2008.03.02 09:59:00 -
[91]
 Originally by: Masu'di
Originally by: Plave Okice
Originally by: Jaggeh
We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week. But all the decision of that officer have to be ratified at a special bi-weekly meeting-- By a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs,-- But by a two-thirds majority in the case of more major
Be quiet! I order you to be quiet!
Order, eh? Who does he think he is?
I am your King!
Red CEORed Vs Blue |
RuleoftheBone
Minmatar
Veto.
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.03.02 11:23:00 -
[92]
Originally by: xeom
Besides who do you think makes more money in a real life corporation? Who do you think does most of the work?
One would think that in the setting of EvE culture would be able to move beyond serfdom.
Serf:
a person in a condition of servitude, required to render services to a lord, commonly attached to the lord's land and transferred with it from one owner to another.
Sound vaguely familiar? The bigger the corporation (or in the case of EvE-alliance) the more this definition rings true. Sure...as in RL EvE pilots are free to leave-but at the risk of losing income and the uncertainty that comes with it. I suspect folks put up with it as they fear the devil they don't know.
The few who actually control the majority of ISK/power in EvE are fully aware of this and would rather this it kept quiet rather than risk thier own position as they gleefully take advantage of the uninformed and gloat in private.
"Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way"
General George Patton USA
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RuleoftheBone
Minmatar
Veto.
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.03.02 11:35:00 -
[93]
Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 02/03/2008 11:38:10
Originally by: bow locks
lol. Bone - shoot things in game mate!
This I do on a daily non-discriminatory basis  .
I'm just calling some larger primaries here.
Nice to see you mate  .
"Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way"
General George Patton USA
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VicturusTeSaluto
Metafarmers
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Posted - 2008.03.02 11:38:00 -
[94]
Excellent thread, and it's hilarious watching all the internet spacesheep that are too brainwashed to see that their alliance masters are ******* them over :)
I mean really, you want someone to tell you how to use your $15?
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Dai Nau
Mothership Connection Inc.
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.02 11:41:00 -
[95]
I used to like to charge people 200m to join goonfleet but then Sesfan said he'd cut anyone's balls off who did it again
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RuleoftheBone
Minmatar
Veto.
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.03.02 11:45:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Dai Nau
I used to like to charge people 200m to join goonfleet but then Sesfan said he'd cut anyone's balls off who did it again
Fools and their ISK are soon parted. And scamming ingame is perfectly legal. What we are attempting to discuss here is more insidious on a far larger scale.
"Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way"
General George Patton USA
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NAFnist
Dark Knights of Deneb
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.03.02 11:50:00 -
[97]
This one time, in fleetops, ET like totally yelled at me because I was being noob, and like, I then totally listened and didnt die
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RuleoftheBone
Minmatar
Veto.
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.03.02 11:58:00 -
[98]
Originally by: NAFnist
This one time, in fleetops, ET like totally yelled at me because I was being noob, and like, I then totally listened and didnt die
Given the name of your alliance I would have thought you might appreciate the discussion and perhaps contribute something useful?
It is also my understanding that ET is a leader one does not want to **** off in any way, shape, or form. It would be interesting to hear his thoughts on the matter if he wishes to do so.
"Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way"
General George Patton USA
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Verone
Veto.
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.03.02 13:39:00 -
[99]
Edited by: Verone on 02/03/2008 13:40:15
I have no issue with bone posting this thread, for anyone who might be wondering, and anyone who's questioned our "policy" on eve-o forum posting in this thread.
One thing did stand out though :
Originally by: Keeves
This is such a bull**** topic. Has your CEO ever told you "OK guys, this is what Veto is doing this next X amount of days/weeks" and you just went and did it because you trusted your CEO? This is such a tinfoil cap conspiracy bull**** thread which makes you think that every 0.0 alliance CEO is pocketing isk made from their corp members.
As Bone's CEO, I can safely say that my members get the best that they can want from Eve. That's why they stick around.
No one is ordered to do anything, no one is demanded to be in a certain ship for an op and no one is forced into a role they don't want to, or can't perform effectively.
Our alliance runs as more of a community that supports eachother, rather than the dictatorship you see in an 0.0 alliance. All our corp taxes remain at 0% and all the ransoms, loot and other ISK that comes in is divided among those involved equally, without a single ISK going to myself or the corp wallet.
The reason I don't have an issue with Bone posting this here is that I'm interested to see how many people are or arent being unknowingly shafted by their alliance leadership, and how many people do, and don't actually care.
It's interesting to see the responses, because I'm a firm believer that people should be a name, not a number in a list of a thousand forgotten others.
Viva la revolution, tbh!
>>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW - EVE FICTION <<<
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2008.03.02 14:41:00 -
[100]
Edited by: LaVista Vista on 02/03/2008 14:42:56
Originally by: Verone
Viva la revolution, tbh!
I agree with Verone here. Its actually kinda interesting to see the large response that came from a simple list of questions.
I suppose what you can see is that people think its fun to be the servers of their Muppet-master leaders.
And i mean, if they didnt think it was fun, they probably wouldnt do it. So hey, all power to them for serving the alliance leaders pockets with isk.
But then again, from my perspective, i dont understand why they even do it. Is it because the grass isnt greener on the other side, or is the pockets of their alliance leader so big, that it blocks any sight to the other side? 
If people wants non-blob pvp, no blues, etc. ill happily create an alliance. You only have to pay 50mill a month, and you will get all the pvp you would ever want. Sounds like a deal?
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Phrixus Zephyr
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.02 14:58:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Plave Okice
Originally by: Masu'di
Originally by: Plave Okice
Originally by: Jaggeh
We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week. But all the decision of that officer have to be ratified at a special bi-weekly meeting-- By a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs,-- But by a two-thirds majority in the case of more major
Be quiet! I order you to be quiet!
Order, eh? Who does he think he is?
I am your King!
Well i didn't vote for you..
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Jack Dubrow
The Drekla Consortium
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Posted - 2008.03.02 15:16:00 -
[102]
To be quite honest it's funny how easily you can associate cult tactics with some of the rules and actions of individuals in some of the corps/alliances in EVE. All of them used to maintain the status quo and continue the growth for an agenda that isn't clearly visible to what most people refer to as the pawns.
In some cases it's just sad. Guess that's what happens when you go to college and learn about sociology/psychology.
---
Let all of it fall to the ground and burn with what we can not smell! |
Spoon Thumb
Caldari
Paladin Imperium
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.02 15:18:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Captain Blart
Delve : very good npc, very good moon mining. why do you think the coalition does not siege Providence ?
Hey man! Sulfuric Acid is almost profitable these days! We're just rolling in the stuff!
/me starts to hiss and sizzle as his flesh dissolves
Khaldari
khanidpublic: RP channel for Kingdom loyalists
Recruiting |
Dr Paithos
Minmatar
Republic Deep Space Institute
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Posted - 2008.03.02 15:31:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Jack Dubrow
For those of you saying how "hard" it is to run an alliance etc. - that's why you hire managers. Hire enough managers and pay them well enough, then no one complains. Not to mention that leading an alliance is what they get a kick out of, so it's not necessarily WORK for them...it's FUN.
lol then one of them steals everything because they have to have the roles to manage
incentivisation against theft doesn't work in a world full of alts
have fun with that though
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Plave Okice
Gallente
Red.
Red Republic
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Posted - 2008.03.02 15:45:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr
Originally by: Plave Okice
Originally by: Masu'di
Originally by: Plave Okice
Originally by: Jaggeh
We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week. But all the decision of that officer have to be ratified at a special bi-weekly meeting-- By a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs,-- But by a two-thirds majority in the case of more major
Be quiet! I order you to be quiet!
Order, eh? Who does he think he is?
I am your King!
Well i didn't vote for you..
You don't vote for a King
Red CEORed Vs Blue |
RuleoftheBone
Minmatar
Veto.
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.03.02 16:00:00 -
[106]
Thank you V <3.
So thus far two actual leaders heard from. Any more out there? And alliance grunt pilots with valid CAOD alts...feel free to post your thoughts as well.
"Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way"
General George Patton USA
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Ava Santiago
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Posted - 2008.03.02 17:11:00 -
[107]
Two things:
1)The number of people that tell me this is a PvP game.
2) 90% of people don't know how to make money in Eve.
If people wanted isk, they would worry about the OP's theory. What they want is the ability to blow things up.
People have happily paid 10% of their income for decades to various religious groups that provided them a social environment. Why should eve be different?
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SamuraiJack
Caldari
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Valainaloce
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Posted - 2008.03.02 18:25:00 -
[108]
and there was me thinking that maybe a group of like minded people want to play the game and actually enjoy using the more endgame moments. Like dropping an outpost or deploying highend capitals, aka MS, Titans. Setting up a market and having a stable region.
But nope. According to CAOD we all want to be a bunch of little asshats ganking anything in sight and crowing on the forums.
And people wonder why the old players have either quit or gone to "pirate" corps and not bothering with towers, politics and other crap. Its not blue. Blow it up. Simple.
But to answer your questions. Maybe some corps do take the ****. Its purely up to your members. If you treat your members with respect and let them know goals and what the plans are then most will be happy.
Some players like spending silly hours hauling and guarding for the simple fact of dropping an outpost and having a permemnt marker in the game. Exodus was suppost to push empire into 0.0 and stimulate market growth as players filled the gaps. All it did was get everyone into lv4's and do the lottery for bpos.
Maybe a few other questions you should ask are... Where in 0.0 are good markets so members can live in 0.0 without the jita hell? Be interesting to see a CCP scan of markets and show who's effectivly using their space. But doubt they'll do it.
And before the goons start... no i dont get you and no i dont like you.
Unfortuatly we seem to be living in a game where goons attitudes are becoming the norm. Shame CCP's enlightened vision of the game is being destroyed because of it.
=-
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SamuraiJack
Caldari
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Valainaloce
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Posted - 2008.03.02 18:29:00 -
[109]
oh additional. Gotta say that pirates maybe were the better profession. All you have to worry about is concord and gateguns. Most of the decent pirate corps have the honor to keep their word. Pirating and ransoming and not holding your word just makes things difficult.
Mebbe i need a alt. :-/
=-
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Gaven Lok'ri
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
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Posted - 2008.03.02 19:56:00 -
[110]
To be honest, there is a political science paper, or book tbh, to be written based on this topic.
Why does 0.0 naturally seem to develop systems of government that are best described as feudal?
Corps seem to hold together based on the personalities of their leaders attracting members. They then form alliances of similar figures who have used their personalities rather than any particular ideals to attract members, and a natural aristocracy seems to emerge inevitably.
Those who have the personality to attract the corp level leaders to follow them, the Sir Molles and others like him in EVE, end up on top of the game. They are the "tyrants" of EVE. It will be interesting to see if any of them survive long enough to become the "kings".
What I find most interesting, however, is that almost every powerhouse has relied on the basic economic system of:
Pvp oriented aristocracy above a mission running/ratting/mining/industrial economic engine. There are exceptions to this (there are multiple cases where the emerging aristocracy was/remains industrialist), but I have seen this model in action since the times of CA.
It is fairly natural. The people who can pvp effectively have the power to deny space to those who cant. They have the power to control the money making capabilities of the moons, they have the power to control who can rat and who cannot in their space. Individually, however, the pvpers are just money sinks. It is when you get someone who can get hundreds of pvpers pointed the same direction that they become the top of the food chain.
Now, often, the person who can do this abuses it. It becomes a system in which only the very few at the top of the hierarchy get the benefits. This is short sighted and stupid. Yes, to win in EVE you need the money to move to the top. Capital ships require that. But if you do it without making it utterly clear to the ones who are the source of your power, then you will find that you start losing the pvpers. You start losing the pvpers, and suddenly the entire scheme collapses.
Instead, and you can see it in the groups responding here about things being good, the longer lasting corps seem to maintain control by making a broad aristocracy. If the number of people who are benefiting from the status quo is large enough, and if they control enough of the people who decide whether or not the region is orderly (the pvpers), then the system propagates itself, it takes more space as its aristocracy of people capable of taking space increases.
Its fascinating, really.
Now the reason that the anarchist tendencies in the Veto suggestions cannot work, IMO, is that to build in 0.0 you need centralized rather than decentralized wealth. Take an alliance of 1000 and say split 1 tril among them. If its evenly distributed, that comes out to 1 bil each. What is alltogether a large quantity of money is not actually all that much when everyone has their own share. When you change that to a system that distributes 50% of it and keeps 50%, you end up with everyone haveing 500m and the leadership having 500 billion. Suddenly a capital ship fleet, outposts, and even extravagances like titans are affordable.
Of course, I think the reality is much more scewed towards the leadership, but the principle is accurate. Without centralized money, it is incredibly hard to be a powerhouse. (My personal argument would be "why the heck would you want to be a powerhouse?")
Where you have a broken system, as opposed to a working one, is when that money goes away instead of being visibly reinvested. Titans are possibly the most visible sign of this. You have alliances spending the money that could go into entire capital ship fleets going into a single relatively weak supercap that is an epeen symbol for their leader. Its one thing to do that once you already have the cap fleet, mind you, but most of the time Titans seem to me to be a very bad sign for the alliance's health.
anyhow, out of space, so end of ramble :P
Deus Vult!
PIE Website Public Channel: 'PIE Public' |
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RuleoftheBone
Minmatar
Veto.
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.03.02 20:01:00 -
[111]
Originally by: SamuraiJack
oh additional. Gotta say that pirates maybe were the better profession. All you have to worry about is concord and gateguns. Most of the decent pirate corps have the honor to keep their word. Pirating and ransoming and not holding your word just makes things difficult.
Mebbe i need a alt. :-/
Its not a question of profession....although playing outlaw is pure fun.
This topic is also not about how certain parties in EvE choose to act.
It is about the relatively few players (and thier army of alts) who attempt to dictate how the balance of the EvE population should live in our shared virtual universe and take severe advantage of the uninformed.
I simply wish to kick the status quo straight in the teeth and encourage some free thought that would hopefully lead to a revolution of sorts.
This sandbox belongs to everyone. Period.
"Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way"
General George Patton USA
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Niedar
MASS
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Posted - 2008.03.02 20:06:00 -
[112]
Jesus, all this time being repressed by my CEO and I never even knew :(
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Jonis Sinmaker
Dead Hooker Industries
G Thanks Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.02 20:08:00 -
[113]
Originally by: RuleoftheBone
Originally by: Vagablonde
Edited by: Vagablonde on 01/03/2008 10:33:12
I dunno rotb, but your sig (the patton quote) i think goes someway to explain the nature of eve, especially concerning space holding alliances in that some people will dedicate very large amounts of their time, and in that time be vry srs, to forging alliances, creating :politics:, along with the hulking endevour of logistics, whilst the majority of people just want to ride bikes, so they follow, there is no room for people who are not leading or following and simply put a good alliance leader, or the like, deserves to be the one in the biggest ship, etc, he/she is afterall one of the writers of the game people decide to immerse themselves in and go along with /longsentence. Whilst having a large ego isn't always a bad thing is does have the effect of magnifying a persons character and all the crap that comes with them, and people with large egos naturally seek authority, titles, status, etc...
not really sure what i'm trying to say 
And what happens to leading by example? While the leader enjoys flying the epeen wagon the drones remain flying pap over and over again..in some cases scrambling to buy the "discounted" ships ever-so-kindly provided by same? Conflict of interest there eh?
Lets see how many leaders will step up and say they DESERVE things shall we?
The ability to lead is native...not usually something taught (except for how to apply it). And the respect that comes with it is earned...not deserved.
Absolute power-corrupts absolutely.
And ole Blood 'n Guts was no politician by any stretch of the imagination.
I've ran corporations and alliances and I can tell you that I was the poorest pilot there. I spent most of my time, as a leader, to ensure that everyone who flew under me was having a good time and what little personal isk I had would mostly go to helping my pilots buy new ships, modules, skillbooks, POS equipment, POS fuel etc. I did this so that the pilots flying under my charge were getting the best possible experience that they pay for in this game. To be honest most CEO's and Alliance leaders are the same.
Do I deserve to use corp funds to buy a new ship if I need it? You're damn right I do, because I spent countless hours orginizing things for my pilots to do, dishing out isk from my own personal wallet to help my pilots and the corp itself, spending the first 2 hours online in convos from the time I log in taking care of political issues etc. All CEO's go through this.
Go start a corporation and run it and see how much time you have to make money for yourself....and if you are a good leader you will understand that sacrificing your own isk and assets to help your members really isn't an issue at all, because your job as CEO is to ensure your pilots are having the best eve experience possible. If you do that then when you, as CEO, need to use corp isk or assets your guys will understand.
Yes there are those asshats that do abuse their roles as CEO and those types of CEO's usually get found out and ousted for it (Remedial comes to mind). So do not classify all CEO's and leaders as being currupt and greedy, because of the actions of a few idiots. I apologize if your eve experience has been tainted with greedy leaders to make you feel that this is a wide spread issue, but you pushing these issues does nothing but make the jobs of every leader that much harder, because if a corporation is run properly in the first place there will already be checks and balances for accountability with the tools that eve has already in place.
--------
Semper Fi,
Jonis Sinmaker
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Dirty Spy
EVE Spy Network
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Posted - 2008.03.02 21:37:00 -
[114]
It's not news that most of the largest alliances are in fact, an Icelandic pyramid scheme.
EVE Spy Network - Where Leaks Happen.
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RuleoftheBone
Minmatar
Veto.
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.03.02 23:08:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Jonis Sinmaker
Straightforward answer
Thank you for taking the time Jonis.
And don't apologize to anyone for actually daring to care about your pilots well-being. Folks like you ain't my primary.
"Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way"
General George Patton USA
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Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
Abyss Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.03 00:40:00 -
[116]
As an alliance leader my intention has always been to fund my own activities at the expense of others hard toil...
Alas, sadly my openess regarding this with my members is obviously the flaw in this great masterplan...
No seriously - If you've got the charm (sadly I dont!) to make ISK from people by making their in game time more fun then is this not a fair exchange for a measly percentage of their time? Hehe - Just imagine your CEO as a jester paid by you to entertain you and you wont be so bitter. Demend it now!!
Everyone knows CEOs are just puppets of some more sinister, low profile puppet master lurking in the background making all the real descisions of what to do with the cash...CEOs just accept the responsibility for if/when it all goes wrong or said puppet master does a runner with the funds.
Oh and they all work for Istvaan Shogatsu....err..I mean Kaiser Sose.
P.S. - We're recruiting..... but go join Veto - they are better, and that Verone chap seems ok...(for a jeordy! (or whatever))
ABVSS are recruiting...... Veeeeery Slowly!! Hehe!! |
Spoon Thumb
Caldari
Paladin Imperium
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.03 01:10:00 -
[117]
Do many corps have a "glass hangar" setup? That is where every member of corp can view/query every hangar corp has, just not take what they're not allowed?
That way there is no hiding stuff from members. (Funnily enough my current corp doesn't. Wondering if to change that)
Khaldari
khanidpublic: RP channel for Kingdom loyalists
Recruiting |
Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
Abyss Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.03 01:29:00 -
[118]
Funnily enough Mr.Spoon we tried that, then found out it sucks when some plonker (AKA "new member") goes and puts his own stuff in a hangar he can't access.
A PITA for those with access confirming the items are not corp property and then plonking the items back in the plonkers hangar in timely fashion.
Tried that and lots of lovely other initiatives for transparency such as: granting 'junior accountant' access roles so people can see corp funds coming and going (but finding out junior accountants can also run off with your deliveries...), tried voting on what to do or aim for next as a corp but people always agree to disagree and do what they want anyway.
All this transparency is essentially fluff and makes more work for your CEO / directors, who are normally the ones bankrolling everyone elses PVP ships and doing all the logistics anyway. A strong, firm hand that quikly becomes a fist until a pryed open with a pint glass is the only way...
Erm...and yeah sorry...I've lost where I was going with this thread.
Oh yeah - "Just say NO" to more admin work for leaders.
ABVSS are recruiting...... Veeeeery Slowly!! Hehe!! |
shuckstar
Gallente
Hauling hogs
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Posted - 2008.03.03 01:30:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Spoon Thumb
Do many corps have a "glass hangar" setup? That is where every member of corp can view/query every hangar corp has, just not take what they're not allowed?
That way there is no hiding stuff from members. (Funnily enough my current corp doesn't. Wondering if to change that)
We do you can see in every hangar and see corp funds every member in corp can do this, we have no reason to hide what funds and assets corp has, altho only a certain few can take from all hangars and corp wallet
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NATMav
F.R.E.E. Explorer
Atrum Tempestas Foedus
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Posted - 2008.03.03 01:34:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Spoon Thumb
Do many corps have a "glass hangar" setup? That is where every member of corp can view/query every hangar corp has, just not take what they're not allowed?
That way there is no hiding stuff from members. (Funnily enough my current corp doesn't. Wondering if to change that)
Yes, all members can at least view all but one hangar reserved for things that need to be hidden like POS parts. All also have Junior Accountant role.
Farham: "Remember, sometimes evolution ends in extinction." |
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