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Delnas
White-Noise
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Posted - 2008.03.01 23:48:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Delnas on 01/03/2008 23:50:58
Previously, I've believed Nano-HACs are overpowered. It seems like a logical argument. They say they are invulnerable because what they cannot beat they can flee from. I think this might have been true in previous times but recently I've found out something amazing. T1 Cruisers and a Hyena can kill them with ease. Easier, in fact, then we can kill traditional tank/gank HACs. If T1 Cruisers and a Hyena can do it, then T1 Cruisers and a Rapier could probably do it with even greater ease.
Today EVP has killed two Vagabonds during our weekly op yet all we were using was a Hyena, two Thoraxes, my Vexor, and Deimos*. We also killed one during our last op with even less. If a Hyena can do it, imagine what a Rapier can.
Please players, don't cry nerf nanos because it is the 'in' thing to do. They are not overpowered, and just require simple tactics to beat. Try out the Hyena, try out the Rapier, and test out baiting tactics. They feel they are invulnerable and that only increases their weakness. You can keep them from running off, and there are hundreds of ways to make them ineffective.
Please Devs, if you read these types of threads, don't nerf Nano-HACs. They are not overpowered, they are not underpowered, they just are. Test them, fly them, fight them, and use the tactics the players use. I'm not sure what testing you do before you nerf stuff, but I'm sure whatever it is you'll find they are balanced and complete this game. EVE would have a great void without them. The forum warriors are not thinking things through, they believe nano-HACs are over powered thus make them so. Perceived reality is the same as reality. Once a few start to see things in that light, the rest simply engage in groupthink. Groupthink led to the bay of pigs, please don't let it lead to the nerf of Nanos.
Ok, my rant is over. Flame away.
P.S. I do own nano ships. My Rapier, Vagabond, Curse, and formor Ishtar were all Nanoships. However, I fly a Vexor before I fly them under normal conditions.
*The point is not the number of ships used. The point is it worked. A Hyena and a Deimos could have done it. A Rapier and a T1 Cruiser could have done it. Two ships are probably required, but that does not make nano-HACs overpowered.
****
White-Noise
Nuff said. |
Death4free
Caldari
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.03.02 00:12:00 -
[2]
yes but then with 10000 kestrels i could take down a titan (after ddd ofc ^^)
numbers are an important part of pvp so do not discount them
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Munenori Yubei
Minmatar
Yagyu Shinkage-ryu
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Posted - 2008.03.02 00:12:00 -
[3]
To put it in a more abstract way:
Something is overpowered when it can't be overcome, HACs can be overcome, so they can't be overpowered.
Underpowered is not the opposite of overpowered.
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Guer
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Posted - 2008.03.02 00:17:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Guer on 02/03/2008 00:17:07
Did the British scream "OMG OVERPOWERED" at the Continental Army's extensive use of guerrilla tactics? No. But they did complain about the colonials consistently aiming for the officers.
If Chewbaccaa lives on Endor you must acquit.
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Delnas
White-Noise
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Posted - 2008.03.02 00:20:00 -
[5]
I'm not hearing anybody asking for me to be hanged yet.  I think that means people are finally understanding that Nano-HACs are not all that overpowered. Maybe the Devs promising a nerf was just a rumor; one can hope atleast.
****
White-Noise
Nuff said. |
Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.02 00:36:00 -
[6]
1) So it took 5 ships to kill 1 nano? At the very least if you're not nano'd yourself it takes at least 2x non nano to kill 1x nano (ie a ceptor/hyena + dps).
Somewhat messed up when you'd be better off flying all nano yourself. At least then you could take them on in equal numbers.
2) So it takes a nano rapier or a fast/nano hyena (yes these should be fast) to catch another nano?
3) Huginns are mostly ineffective as nanos won't engage if they see one.
4) Hyenas work when the nanos don't respect them. Often the hyena goes pop fast.
5) Rapiers are required, but they can't go toe to toe with most nanos. Lack of dps etc. Rapiers Take a few seconds after uncloaking before engaging. Recon 5 is common, and faction webbers nearly required. Meaning you're flying a 300-500mil nano to web a 200mil nano. Much easier to just fly an ishtar/vaga in the first place.
6) Ceptors have been mostly replaced by the best tackler and webbers: nano'd ishtars and vagas
What you've confirmed is the usual tactics. Either blob them or hope they get distracted so the rapier can uncloak or the hyena can get close.
And after all that the tactics work to kill a nano or two. However the tactics fail against nano gangs. You've 5-10 rapiers + hyenas and 2-3 logistic ships in every gang right? Otherwise you'd be better served flying nano's yourself.
The central issue is that web range and strength was last looked at years ago when things moved slower. A 20km diameter web range makes sense when things move slower and with less lag. These days a nano can be inside of and outside of web range in no time. Add in interia, and speed wins over webs the majority of time.
The issue is the range of scram. Speed is required to get clear and warp away. The other issue is the lack of web range and strength of the web. Webs are scary for anyone because scram + web means you're not going anywhere. Get web + scram and any sort of maneuvering tactics are out of the picture.
You say that people are finally understanding that nano-hacs are not overpowered... and yet so many are training for them. Used to be I'd hear that someone wanted a bs, or a command ship, or a ceptor, or, something not a nano. In an entirely unscientific survey, the current training paths seem to be nanos or cap ships.
Oh, and if I'm not in a laggy fleet fight, I use nanos nearly exclusively. Loads of fun, but it sucks for anyone not nano'd.
And devs, think of the children! Think of the children!
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Horeta
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Posted - 2008.03.02 00:42:00 -
[7]
its not balanced if you need minmatar ships to beat minmatar ships. gal, amar and caldari need counter too, only than its balanced.
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Karyuudo Tydraad
Caldari
Whiskey Pete's Drycleaning Services
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Posted - 2008.03.02 00:47:00 -
[8]
Welcome to the elite ranks of Those in the Know.
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Delnas
White-Noise
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Posted - 2008.03.02 00:51:00 -
[9]
 Originally by: *****zilla
1) So it took 5 ships to kill 1 nano? At the very least if you're not nano'd yourself it takes at least 2x non nano to kill 1x nano (ie a ceptor/hyena + dps).
Somewhat messed up when you'd be better off flying all nano yourself. At least then you could take them on in equal numbers.
We didn't need five ships, we just had five ships. A Hyena and a HAC or a Rapier and a T1 Cruiser is all that is needed.
Originally by: *****zilla
2) So it takes a nano rapier or a fast/nano hyena (yes these should be fast) to catch another nano?
Sure, why not? It takes a Tank/DPS ship to kill a Tank/DPS ship. Fight fire with fire.
Originally by: *****zilla
3) Huginns are mostly ineffective as nanos won't engage if they see one.
Thats why I didn't mention them.
Originally by: *****zilla
4) Hyenas work when the nanos don't respect them. Often the hyena goes pop fast.
Thats because of the Hyena and the gang. It has nothing to do with nanos.
Originally by: *****zilla
5) Rapiers are required, but they can't go toe to toe with most nanos. Lack of dps etc. Rapiers Take a few seconds after uncloaking before engaging. Recon 5 is common, and faction webbers nearly required. Meaning you're flying a 300-500mil nano to web a 200mil nano. Much easier to just fly an ishtar/vaga in the first place.
A Hyena will work, as proven many times by EVP. And a Rapier will kill a Vaga of equal value. An Ishtar is slightly harder due to drones, but still not impossible and far from overpowered.
Originally by: *****zilla
6) Ceptors have been mostly replaced by the best tackler and webbers: nano'd ishtars and vagas
Cepters are still widely used. And AFs have been replaced by T1 Cruisers. That doesn't make T1 Cruisers overpowered.
Originally by: *****zilla
What you've confirmed is the usual tactics. Either blob them or hope they get distracted so the rapier can uncloak or the hyena can get close.
A blob is not required. The Hyena just is benefited by being underestimated or warping nearly on target. The Rapier is added by bait or an inattentive nano pilot. However, underestimation, waring nearly on target, bait, and/or inattentiveness is no more required to kill a nano ship then it is to kill a normal ship.
Originally by: *****zilla
And after all that the tactics work to kill a nano or two. However the tactics fail against nano gangs. You've 5-10 rapiers + hyenas and 2-3 logistic ships in every gang right? Otherwise you'd be better served flying nano's yourself.
With local any gang can run from any gang, nanos or not. Numbers are required for every fight, nanoed or not. You need to setup for the fight. A roaming gang like ours won't kill a nano gang, but it won't kill a normal HAC gang either.
Originally by: *****zilla
The central issue is that web range and strength was last looked at years ago when things moved slower. A 20km diameter web range makes sense when things move slower and with less lag. These days a nano can be inside of and outside of web range in no time. Add in interia, and speed wins over webs the majority of time.
I don't see the problem. Webs working the way they do now fitted onto a webifier ship obviously work well in killing nanos, and every gang in 0.0 has its webifier-specialists ships. To me that makes it a non issue, and the need for webifier specilists is also a non issue because in the past you needed DPS specilised ships to deal with tankers.
(Post Clipped by forums)
****
White-Noise
Nuff said. |
Horeta
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Posted - 2008.03.02 00:56:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Delnas
Originally by: *****zilla
1) So it took 5 ships to kill 1 nano? At the very least if you're not nano'd yourself it takes at least 2x non nano to kill 1x nano (ie a ceptor/hyena + dps).
Somewhat messed up when you'd be better off flying all nano yourself. At least then you could take them on in equal numbers.
We didn't need five ships, we just had five ships. A Hyena and a HAC or a Rapier and a T1 Cruiser is all that is needed.
Originally by: *****zilla
2) So it takes a nano rapier or a fast/nano hyena (yes these should be fast) to catch another nano?
Sure, why not? It takes a Tank/DPS ship to kill a Tank/DPS ship. Fight fire with fire.
Originally by: *****zilla
3) Huginns are mostly ineffective as nanos won't engage if they see one.
Thats why I didn't mention them.
Originally by: *****zilla
4) Hyenas work when the nanos don't respect them. Often the hyena goes pop fast.
Thats because of the Hyena and the gang. It has nothing to do with nanos.
Originally by: *****zilla
5) Rapiers are required, but they can't go toe to toe with most nanos. Lack of dps etc. Rapiers Take a few seconds after uncloaking before engaging. Recon 5 is common, and faction webbers nearly required. Meaning you're flying a 300-500mil nano to web a 200mil nano. Much easier to just fly an ishtar/vaga in the first place.
A Hyena will work, as proven many times by EVP. And a Rapier will kill a Vaga of equal value. An Ishtar is slightly harder due to drones, but still not impossible and far from overpowered.
Originally by: *****zilla
6) Ceptors have been mostly replaced by the best tackler and webbers: nano'd ishtars and vagas
Cepters are still widely used. And AFs have been replaced by T1 Cruisers. That doesn't make T1 Cruisers overpowered.
Originally by: *****zilla
What you've confirmed is the usual tactics. Either blob them or hope they get distracted so the rapier can uncloak or the hyena can get close.
A blob is not required. The Hyena just is benefited by being underestimated or warping nearly on target. The Rapier is added by bait or an inattentive nano pilot. However, underestimation, waring nearly on target, bait, and/or inattentiveness is no more required to kill a nano ship then it is to kill a normal ship.
Originally by: *****zilla
And after all that the tactics work to kill a nano or two. However the tactics fail against nano gangs. You've 5-10 rapiers + hyenas and 2-3 logistic ships in every gang right? Otherwise you'd be better served flying nano's yourself.
With local any gang can run from any gang, nanos or not. Numbers are required for every fight, nanoed or not. You need to setup for the fight. A roaming gang like ours won't kill a nano gang, but it won't kill a normal HAC gang either.
Originally by: *****zilla
The central issue is that web range and strength was last looked at years ago when things moved slower. A 20km diameter web range makes sense when things move slower and with less lag. These days a nano can be inside of and outside of web range in no time. Add in interia, and speed wins over webs the majority of time.
I don't see the problem. Webs working the way they do now fitted onto a webifier ship obviously work well in killing nanos, and every gang in 0.0 has its webifier-specialists ships. To me that makes it a non issue, and the need for webifier specilists is also a non issue because in the past you needed DPS specilised ships to deal with tankers.
(Post Clipped by forums)
learn to write connected text, its horrible to read
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Delnas
White-Noise
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Posted - 2008.03.02 00:56:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Delnas on 02/03/2008 01:01:28
Originally by: *****zilla
The issue is the range of scram. Speed is required to get clear and warp away. The other issue is the lack of web range and strength of the web. Webs are scary for anyone because scram + web means you're not going anywhere. Get web + scram and any sort of maneuvering tactics are out of the picture.
No body is whining about scram range, and its 24km before overheating. More then enough to deal with nanos when you have a web ship to help you.
Originally by: *****zilla
You say that people are finally understanding that nano-hacs are not overpowered... and yet so many are training for them. Used to be I'd hear that someone wanted a bs, or a command ship, or a ceptor, or, something not a nano. In an entirely unscientific survey, the current training paths seem to be nanos or cap ships.
You do hear of people who want Command Ships. Look at the first page. You don't hear of people wanting Battleships because its the first thing everybody trains, everybody has them. Cepters are wanted about as much as Assault Frigates, but you hear it occassionally. Nanos are a fad, but not an overpowered one.
Originally by: *****zilla
Oh, and if I'm not in a laggy fleet fight, I use nanos nearly exclusively. Loads of fun, but it sucks for anyone not nano'd.
It doesn't suck for anyone not nanoed. I don't lag in fleets, I can fly all four races T2 Cruisers with level IV & V navigation skills. I own the most popular nanos. I prefer flying my Vexor in low sec and you know what? It doesn't suck for me.
Originally by: *****zilla
And devs, think of the children! Think of the children!
Yes, think of the children. Think of the children who will have a void in their EVE-Experience without nanos. Without the trill of a Vagabond attacking you only for you to turn the tides and win EVE is slightly less then EVE+Nano.
****
White-Noise
Nuff said. |
Delnas
White-Noise
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Posted - 2008.03.02 00:58:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Delnas on 02/03/2008 00:59:50
Originally by: Horeta
its not balanced if you need minmatar ships to beat minmatar ships. gal, amar and caldari need counter too, only than its balanced.
Why? You need a great tank and/or lots of DPS to beat a tanked ship. Why not need a web-specilised ship to kill a nano ship? Obviously thats not the only way to kill them, but the best I've found. Every race can run them off with their own Ewar.
Originally by: Horeta
learn to write connected text, its horrible to read
Its a matter of style. I don't like putting my bolds in someone else's quote. I prefer breaking it into pieces and dealing with it paragraph by paragraph. I'm not forcing you to read anything.
****
White-Noise
Nuff said. |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.03.02 01:15:00 -
[13]
Edited by: MotherMoon on 02/03/2008 01:16:28
Originally by: Delnas
Edited by: Delnas on 02/03/2008 00:59:50
Originally by: Horeta
its not balanced if you need minmatar ships to beat minmatar ships. gal, amar and caldari need counter too, only than its balanced.
Why? You need a great tank and/or lots of DPS to beat a tanked ship. Why not need a web-specilised ship to kill a nano ship? Obviously thats not the only way to kill them, but the best I've found. Every race can run them off with their own Ewar.
Originally by: Horeta
learn to write connected text, its horrible to read
Its a matter of style. I don't like putting my bolds in someone else's quote. I prefer breaking it into pieces and dealing with it paragraph by paragraph. I'm not forcing you to read anything.
gal can damp, make them come into web range
caldari can use ECM
ammar can nuet out it's cap and slow it to a crawl
ammar can also use tracking disruptors.
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Kitos Toreq
Minmatar
legio credere
United Legion
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Posted - 2008.03.02 01:18:00 -
[14]
http://youtube.com/watch?v=bTn9EASiPMY
Nanos are not overpowered. Those who cant kill them just do something wrong. Eve is about diversity and choice. So if your ship/setup fails just pick another one and try again.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.02 01:26:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Delnas
We didn't need five ships, we just had five ships. A Hyena and a HAC or a Rapier and a T1 Cruiser is all that is needed.
A Hyena + hac? Why not just fly 2x nanos yourself? If it takes 2x non nano with one of them as a web specialist, wouldn't it just be easier to fly 2x cookie cutter nanos?
Originally by: Delnas
...a Rapier will kill a Vaga of equal value...
The Rapier has to stay in 24km to keep scram, which is a nice range for the vaga. Assuming both are shield buffer tanked, the vaga has the advantage in dps, resists, and hp. It is possible that the rapier wins, but my money would be on the vaga in a 1v1 assuming neither warps out.
Originally by: Delnas
I don't see the problem. Webs working the way they do now fitted onto a webifier ship obviously work well in killing nanos, and every gang in 0.0 has its webifier-specialists ships. To me that makes it a non issue, and the need for webifier specilists is also a non issue because in the past you needed DPS specilised ships to deal with tankers.
However most ships can tackle a tanked gang. Dictors etc are effective in holding them down for reinforcements etc.
While for nanos it requires minm recons or eas. There isn't any way to effectively hold down nanos otherwise. So the only major risks to a nano gang is 1) doomsday and an asleep fc, 2) a gang of nano minm recons/eas, 3) another nano gang.
Originally by: Delnas
Yes, think of the children. Think of the children who will have a void in their EVE-Experience without nanos. Without the trill of a nano domi attacking you only for you to turn the tides and win EVE is slightly less then EVE+Nano.
Fixed. By your reasoning we should bring back nano battleships. In fact a nano domi or phoon might be the perfect counter for nano cruisers. So yes, lets bring them back.
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Sojiuro
Boennerup Banden
When Fat Kids Attack
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Posted - 2008.03.02 02:21:00 -
[16]
if a vaga cant kill a hyena in a few secs.... /fail
<('.'<) <( '.' )> (>'.')>
Who said Rohk's suck!? |
Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
Rare Faction
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Posted - 2008.03.02 02:42:00 -
[17]
A Vagabond within Hyena killing range is not moving fast at all for a few seconds whilst the Hyena's friends are. Friends who also happen to carry webs.
Nano-HACs have a very difficult time killing a competent pilot alone. A Vagabond has pathetic DPS after falloff, Ishtars/Curses lose drones like no tommorow, Sacs have poor DPS vs high velocity ships, Huginns/Rapiers need to be within return fire range to even begin thinking of killing a proper ship.
A group of Nano-HACs is needed to kill targets effectively, and likewise a group of people is usually (but not always in the case of heavy neuts) required to kill them as well.
And don't spout some random garbage about how needing more than 1 person to kill another player is imbalanced. I've been solo pirating for the past half year, and 98% of 1 vs 1 turn into 1 vs 10 within a minute of engagement. EVE is not a solo game and does not encourage solo piloting, and I know this is true no matter how stubborn I may be. It is as difficult to solo a Nano-HAC (as in actually killing it) as it is to kill a ship that is jamming/dampening/tanking/kiting/whatever your ship. No single ship can kill a tanked Hyperion, Abaddon, or Maelstrom solo within a reasonable time frame, so you bring more people. Thats EVE.
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Tellenta
Gallente
White-Noise
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Posted - 2008.03.02 02:46:00 -
[18]
Dear lord, delnas what have you done! The hyena sucks, t1 cruisers suck, the vagabond is invincible, etc etc yadda yadda. There are many reasons our gang works out like it does, dumb luck and not being cookie cutter, and the addiction of running away a lot of players have tends to swing a lot of fights into our favor. A great many fights could have gone either way if the first impulse of some of the targets wasn't to warp out. But I digress I seem to be derailing
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Delnas
White-Noise
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Posted - 2008.03.02 03:13:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Delnas on 02/03/2008 03:14:19
Originally by: Tellenta
Dear lord, delnas what have you done! The hyena sucks, t1 cruisers suck, the vagabond is invincible, etc etc yadda yadda. There are many reasons our gang works out like it does, dumb luck and not being cookie cutter, and the addiction of running away a lot of players have tends to swing a lot of fights into our favor. A great many fights could have gone either way if the first impulse of some of the targets wasn't to warp out. But I digress I seem to be derailing
Be careful, people might think your serious. You know how easy it is to reinforce ignorance with posts like "Hyena's suck, T1 frigates suck, and Vagabonds are invincible"?
And yeah, many of our fights could have gone either way.
Vagabond+Thorax+BlackBird vs Thorax+Thorax+Hyena+Deimos.
We had superior numbers, but they had lots of ECM. We still killed the HAC, and that wasn't dumb luck. That was them falling for our trap, and your unwillingness to die. And with the other fight, yeah, if the Vagabond could have managed to track the Hyena it could have escaped. The fact is, we won, again and again we won.
****
White-Noise
Nuff said. |
Delnas
White-Noise
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Posted - 2008.03.02 03:16:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Delnas on 02/03/2008 03:25:12
Originally by: Sojiuro
if a vaga cant kill a hyena in a few secs.... /fail
A nanoVagabond goes 5.5km/s and has to slow down to hit its target with turrets. A nanoVagabond does not carry a web. How do you expect a nanoVagabond to kill a frigate MWDing around it with an overheated MWD? The fact is, it can't kill a Hyena in a few seconds unless the Hyena pilot doesn't understand what he is doing.
Originally by: *****zilla
Originally by: Delnas
We didn't need five ships, we just had five ships. A Hyena and a HAC or a Rapier and a T1 Cruiser is all that is needed.
A Hyena + hac? Why not just fly 2x nanos yourself? If it takes 2x non nano with one of them as a web specialist, wouldn't it just be easier to fly 2x cookie cutter nanos?
I'm not debaiting which is easier, I'm trying to explain nanos are not overpowered by showing nanos are not required to kill nanos. Cepters, Ewar frigates, and Recons are more then capable of tackling them. Hell, if he attacks you, just neut him and overheat your own MWD to get in range.
Originally by: Delnas
...a Rapier will kill a Vaga of equal value...
The Rapier has to stay in 24km to keep scram, which is a nice range for the vaga. Assuming both are shield buffer tanked, the vaga has the advantage in dps, resists, and hp. It is possible that the rapier wins, but my money would be on the vaga in a 1v1 assuming neither warps out.
I prefer a damp tank as it is still viable. 2+Rigs will get the vagabond below 24km. Tracking Disrupters also work, throw your drones on his drones. The Rapier, 1v1, will win. Still, I'm not talking about 1v1, I'd bring another ship tbh. Nanos are hard to kill solo, but that does not make them overpowered.
Originally by: Delnas
I don't see the problem. Webs working the way they do now fitted onto a webifier ship obviously work well in killing nanos, and every gang in 0.0 has its webifier-specialists ships. To me that makes it a non issue, and the need for webifier specilists is also a non issue because in the past you needed DPS specilised ships to deal with tankers.
However most ships can tackle a tanked gang. Dictors etc are effective in holding them down for reinforcements etc.
While for nanos it requires minm recons or eas. There isn't any way to effectively hold down nanos otherwise. So the only major risks to a nano gang is 1) doomsday and an asleep fc, 2) a gang of nano minm recons/eas, 3) another nano gang.
Yes, but then again, a nano gang is not a risk to a tanked ship either. The nanos can run away, the tanked ship can slow-boat it to the gate. Nanos are no more overpowered the WCS, both greatly nerf your ability to fight.
Originally by: Delnas
Yes, think of the children. Think of the children who will have a void in their EVE-Experience without nanos. Without the trill of a nano domi attacking you only for you to turn the tides and win EVE is slightly less then EVE+Nano.
Fixed. By your reasoning we should bring back nano battleships. In fact a nano domi or phoon might be the perfect counter for nano cruisers. So yes, lets bring them back.
[b]I don't follow. There is a big difference between nano-battleships and nano-HACs. I won't explain waht they are, you can probably figure it out on your own.[b]
There, you happy? I posted my answers in context, in bold. It is slightly easier I guess. Your way may infact be better.
****
White-Noise
Nuff said. |
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demonfurbie
Minmatar
Blue Sun Trust Research
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Posted - 2008.03.02 03:24:00 -
[21]
Quote:
A nanoVagabond goes 5.5km/s and has to slow down to hit its target with turrets. A nanoVagabond does not carry a web. How do you expect a nanoVagabond to kill a frigate MWDing around it with an overheated MWD? The fact is, it can't kill a Hyena in a few seconds unless the Hyena pilot doesn't understand what he is doing.
warrior 2s
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Delnas
White-Noise
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Posted - 2008.03.02 03:29:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Delnas on 02/03/2008 03:30:00
Originally by: demonfurbie
Quote:
A nanoVagabond goes 5.5km/s and has to slow down to hit its target with turrets. A nanoVagabond does not carry a web. How do you expect a nanoVagabond to kill a frigate MWDing around it with an overheated MWD? The fact is, it can't kill a Hyena in a few seconds unless the Hyena pilot doesn't understand what he is doing.
warrior 2s
I'd believe it were it not for the expert piloting of Savesti Krysst*. She survived a Vagabond plus his T2 Warriors in a Hyena long enough for our gang to jump in system, warp to her, then MWD (in T1 Cruisers, mind you)the long 75km over to her and the Vagabond. They moved pretty far since we activated warp yet still still survived. ^_^ 20% shield left I believe she said when we finally relieved her.
*I may have spelt her last name wrong. For the correct spelling, check the people who've killed you. The correct spelling should be listed there.
****
White-Noise
Nuff said. |
Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2008.03.02 03:39:00 -
[23]
Instead of nerfing nanos they should just unnerf WCS so all ships can choose their engagements.
Then we can kiss the nanovaga goodbye and welcome back our good friend the stabbabond.
Afterall, wasn't PvP much more fun when you couldn't kill anyone without a ton of warp disruptors (webs) fitted?
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Delnas
White-Noise
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Posted - 2008.03.02 03:55:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Delnas on 02/03/2008 03:56:07
Originally by: Wet Ferret
Instead of nerfing nanos they should just unnerf WCS so all ships can choose their engagements.
Then we can kiss the nanovaga goodbye and welcome back our good friend the stabbabond.
Afterall, wasn't PvP much more fun when you couldn't kill anyone without a ton of warp disruptors (webs) fitted?
Why unnerf them? Nerfed WCS give you aproxmently equivilent drawbacks as nanos. WCS limit you offensive ability by lowing your scanner resolution and decreasing your scanner range. Nanos lower your offensive ability by decreasing your damage and making it so you cannot web a target. Currently, WCS are about the same as nanos, and neither are overpowered.
Edit: Although, pre-nerf WCS would not be so bad now with HICTORs. I still think its a bad idea, its just a relational thought.
****
White-Noise
Nuff said. |
Mo Steel
Caldari
Sanguis vix Dignatio
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Posted - 2008.03.02 04:07:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Munenori Yubei
Something is overpowered when it can't be overcome, HACs can be overcome, so they can't be overpowered.
Overpowered != unstoppable.
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Want a sig made? Eve-Mail me, signatures made for 5 million isk each. |
Felix Dzerzhinsky
legion of qui
Black Star Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.02 04:28:00 -
[26]
I don't think nano is overpowered, but I do think its awful boring. I also think that while certain ships should go fast - like the Vegabond - others should not - like the Ishtar. When people speak about 'nano' ships, they are talking about ships that have given up a majority of their dps for speed and survivability - and that is ok as a concept. The problem is that with certain ships, there is little loss of DPS and that the risk to reward that nano=setups bring to the game is borked. I should not be able to avoid any engadgment after there is contact. I am not saying that a tactical withdrawl should never be possible, I am saying that withdrawl is far too easy for those who are nano fitted.
So nano fittings will be nurfed - this is a fact alluded to in the dev blog. Nothing in the game, not even a vegabond should be able to go faster then an interceptor - without a much higher investment of ISK. Thats the benchmark for me - interceptors = fastest ships in the game. Right now, thats not the case.
Can nano be countered? Yes. Are there enough counters? No. Should there be more counters? Well, its either make more counters or slow eve down a tad. And it will happen. . .the question is, how much.
GO BLUE!! |
Reem Fairchild
Minmatar
Military Industrial Research
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Posted - 2008.03.02 04:56:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Reem Fairchild on 02/03/2008 04:57:06
Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky
Nothing in the game, not even a vegabond should be able to go faster then an interceptor - without a much higher investment of ISK. Thats the benchmark for me - interceptors = fastest ships in the game. Right now, thats not the case.
The absolute slowest interceptor in the game does 6.2 km/s in a simple tech 2 speed fit and max skills (no faction gear, no rigs, no implants, no gang bonuses, no overloading, etc. ...). The fastest interceptor does almost 7.7 km/s.
An equivalent Vagabond does 5.8 km/s.
Conclusion: The Vagabond is NOT faster than interceptors.
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Delnas
White-Noise
|
Posted - 2008.03.02 04:59:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Delnas on 02/03/2008 04:59:56
Originally by: Reem Fairchild
Edited by: Reem Fairchild on 02/03/2008 04:57:06
Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky
Nothing in the game, not even a vegabond should be able to go faster then an interceptor - without a much higher investment of ISK. Thats the benchmark for me - interceptors = fastest ships in the game. Right now, thats not the case.
The absolute slowest interceptor in the game does 6.2 km/s in a simple tech 2 speed fit and max skills (no faction gear, no rigs, no implants, no gang bonuses, no overloading, etc. ...). The fastest interceptor does almost 7.7 km/s.
An equivalent Vagabond does 5.8 km/s.
Conclusion: The Vagabond is NOT faster than interceptors.
You said no rigs on the Cepter. An otherwise equivalent Vagabond but with Rigs does 5.8km/s. Without it does much less. ^_^
****
White-Noise
Nuff said. |
Reem Fairchild
Minmatar
Military Industrial Research
|
Posted - 2008.03.02 05:05:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Delnas
Edited by: Delnas on 02/03/2008 04:59:56
Originally by: Reem Fairchild
Edited by: Reem Fairchild on 02/03/2008 04:57:06
Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky
Nothing in the game, not even a vegabond should be able to go faster then an interceptor - without a much higher investment of ISK. Thats the benchmark for me - interceptors = fastest ships in the game. Right now, thats not the case.
The absolute slowest interceptor in the game does 6.2 km/s in a simple tech 2 speed fit and max skills (no faction gear, no rigs, no implants, no gang bonuses, no overloading, etc. ...). The fastest interceptor does almost 7.7 km/s.
An equivalent Vagabond does 5.8 km/s.
Conclusion: The Vagabond is NOT faster than interceptors.
You said no rigs on the Cepter. An otherwise equivalent Vagabond but with Rigs does 5.8km/s. Without it does much less. ^_^
It doesn't need rigs to do 5.8 km/s. 10mn mwd II, 3 overdrive injectors II and 2 nanofibers II plus max skills = 5.8 km/s on a Vagabond
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AndrewRyan
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Posted - 2008.03.02 05:11:00 -
[30]
The problem I have with nano hacs is the fact that AFs are so slow and ungainly, if the cruiser version is billy whizz on ***** why is the supposedly smaller faster ship like desperate dan on mogadon?
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A Man chooses, a slave obeys. |
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