Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Niko Mat
|
Posted - 2008.03.07 14:02:00 -
[1]
My gang has been troubled by Caldari recons of late. Specifically we have lost a few small gang engagements that on paper should have been fairly well-matched, simply because of an opposing Rook. Their Rook warps in at 100km (so far as I can tell) and starts with the jamming, breaking the locks of our generally cruiser/BC-sized ships fairly easily. Now I'm not complaining about this as this is entirely what the Caldari recons are meant to do - suffice to say, their Rook is doing it very well.
However, I'm not content with sitting around managing 0 targets while being slowly killed, so I've been trying to think of some counter-strategies to nullify that blasted Rook. As yet we haven't tried anything specific, so I don't know how the Rook pilot will react when confronted with any particular threat. It's all theorycraft right now.
- I'm going to assume that the ship has no tank to speak of, so if we can get within damage range and pin him down, he's not going to last that long. Long-range ships seem to be a good way to go, then - a Caracal might be able to reach 100km with heavies, and of course if we can get drones on him then even better as they will still keep doing the damage if (when) the controlling ship is jammed. This would probably take multiple drone link augmentors to pull off though, which might prove to be a bit too much gimping of the setup for normal combat.
- And then once the Rook starts to take damage I'm pretty sure he'll just warp out - which is handy, but ideally we'd want to put him down for good else he'll be back 60 seconds later to start the jamming again (and during this time a fair bit of effort has been diverted to engaging him rather than the rest of his gang). I can definitely see some problems with tackling him - a ship will need to be fast to close the range, and if we send an interceptor it can probably be trivially jammed with a single racial, allowing the Rook to disengage at will again and thus accomplishing nothing. Perhaps a 3 mid-slot inty would do better here if it took an ECCM along...
- Of course, there's fighting fire with fire and jamming the Rook with another ECM ship. But this will possibly present problems of range, as if both ECM ships warp in at 100 from different directions, the resulting 200km separation between them will likely be too much, especially for T1 ECM ships. A sensor-dampening ship might do the trick too, shutting down the Rook's targeting range to something a little too close for comfort - and this ship can hopefully warp in with the rest of the forces as it is hopefully more durable than an ECM boat.
- My favourite so far is probably using a Curse - if the Curse can get within ~30km of the Rook, he should be able to instagib the other's cap (right?), which would prevent the Rook using his ECM to break the Curse's lock. This could in theory work with a large neut/neuts on any ship, but I don't fancy my chances of getting a battleship in range and getting a lock on the Rook without it getting spooked and warping out.
- Perhaps all the attempts to scram the Rook are doomed to failure and we need to be looking at alpha strikes - which to me says Muninn? If we can alpha all of his shield and some of his armour, he'll probably be a lot more timid about coming back in as well since he can only stand up to a few more volleys, even with a fully recharged shield.
Anyway, this is all a bit of public brainstorming (so I'm not accused of asking others to do all the work!). I've had a look through the archives with EVE Search too, and didn't find anything particularly helpful. So - what would you do against a Rook in this situation?
Thanks.
|
Kilvane
Gallente Shinra Shinra Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.03.07 14:06:00 -
[2]
eccm modules? they boost your signel strenght making it harder to jam ------------------ Only The Dead See The End Of The War |
Alex Harumichi
Gallente Gradient Electus Matari
|
Posted - 2008.03.07 14:48:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 07/03/2008 14:48:11 Fit ECCM. It helps a lot.
If you want to get really fancy, put an Infowar-mindlinked Eos pilot with the ECCM gang mod running in the fleet command / wing command spot. Should make you a ***** to jam effectively.
|
darkmancer
|
Posted - 2008.03.07 14:57:00 -
[4]
Counters:
FOF missiles - a bit random and range is limited to 40 50k ish
Drones again range limited (sentries might be good.
Sensor dampeners - gallente recon be usefull here esp with the scramble range bonus.
Recons of your own - they have awsome sensor strengths and are difficult to jam.
ECM mods - not uber but can cetainly make it more difficult for him.
Carrier - assigned fighters 4tw
Neuts - no cap no rook
Minmater BS - Gank setup + sensor boosters - insta pop rook
Min logistics ship + long range gank bc's
Stealth bombers with they're massive burst damage would pobobly work, i'm not sure if missiles currently in flight cause damage when your jammed though. It might be best to wait while he activates his fist cycle of jams before declocking.
The best solution though is to not let the enemy rook dictate range. --------------------------------- There's a simple solution to every problem. It is always invariably wrong |
General Coochie
The Bastards
|
Posted - 2008.03.07 14:57:00 -
[5]
Edited by: General Coochie on 07/03/2008 14:59:18 Few sensor dampeners? Get his target range to like 50km would really hurt it I think.
The Vigil and The Caracal (duo PvP movie) |
Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge XIII Legio
|
Posted - 2008.03.07 14:58:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Omarvelous on 07/03/2008 15:00:12 Does your gang have any snipers?
I'd recommend a dedicated anti-ecm sniper with an ECCM module.
Stealth bomber with sensor damps will help too (move cloaked towards rook, uncloak and damp him).
Kitsune - speed tanked - zip towards him and jam him back - train time isn't too bad, I've gotten jam cycles on Falcons before. Even if that fails, and the Rook jams you - he's taking a jam cycle off one of your teammates to deal with you. The heavy missiles the Rook will fire can be speed tanked effectively. __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
|
Yoko Lee
|
Posted - 2008.03.07 15:05:00 -
[7]
eccm = med slot, i use amarr and caldari ship, u can put 1/2 eccm but no sensor booster/web/disruptor etc, ecm boat and drone ecm work really nice.
I pilot falcon, its a great ship, too much? yes, easy to jam 3/4 bs.
I can see now so much noob gang with ecm boat like blackbird/scorpion, you can put some eccm but med ecm drone + ecm boat = perma jam.
I use falcon but i hate ecm....now
|
Matrixcvd
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.03.07 16:41:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Yoko Lee eccm = med slot, i use amarr and caldari ship, u can put 1/2 eccm but no sensor booster/web/disruptor etc, ecm boat and drone ecm work really nice.
I pilot falcon, its a great ship, too much? yes, easy to jam 3/4 bs.
I can see now so much noob gang with ecm boat like blackbird/scorpion, you can put some eccm but med ecm drone + ecm boat = perma jam.
I use falcon but i hate ecm....now
falcon good eccm good eccm bad for falcoon uhm, who care about 1 mid if you cant shoot no win? failcheck plz
|
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.03.07 17:02:00 -
[9]
ECCM should have some other advantage than just making you harder to jam, at the moment its use is very limited due to the lack of free midslots on your average pvp setup.
|
Garmon
Minmatar Genos Occidere
|
Posted - 2008.03.07 17:08:00 -
[10]
Nano- hacs Gallente dampeners Snipers and another falcon
ECCM doesn't do a lot, and your lucky he wasn't over 200km away, nano curse can be a good idea, since they're harder to jamm than other hac's __________________________________
Garmonation - Rupture fun video |
|
Amberly Coteaz
Amarr Blood Corsair's Blood Blind
|
Posted - 2008.03.07 17:09:00 -
[11]
If he is warping in at 100km from celestial objects. Eccm pilgrim maybe? Otherwise, the suggestions above are fine
If you find yourself in a fair fight, something has gone wrong |
Cogswin Iannyen
|
Posted - 2008.03.07 17:13:00 -
[12]
Maybe a Drake with a cloak, 7 heavy launchers, loaded with FOF missles? Stay cloaked, sneak up to within 20k of him, away from everyone else, uncloak and open up. oorah! FOF, so no need to target...., thereby negating the lock time penalties of the cloaking device...
|
Mortua Skyray
|
Posted - 2008.03.07 17:29:00 -
[13]
As someone who frequently flies T1 ECM ships (I'm training for the rook atm) I think that Sensor Dampeners and Stealth Bombers are the best route to counter a Rook. Hit him with 3 good sensor damps and his range will dip to 50km or less - which will probably require him to warp out and back in at least.
A good Stealth Bomber with 2 sensor damps, a sensor booster and a passive targeter will do wonders for scaring him off. With the passive targeter you can uncloak, avoid drawing his attention for a couple seconds and have a full volley heading right at him before he is able to lock you (and with the booster you can hit him from 120km+).
|
BABARR
PARABELUM-Project
|
Posted - 2008.03.07 17:40:00 -
[14]
I confirm, damp are very good, a cloaked arazu next your gang can be very good :) ...
"Si vis pacem, parabellum" |
Arkios Odymei
Incarnation of Evil Nocturnal Legion
|
Posted - 2008.03.07 17:46:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Sokratesz ECCM should have some other advantage than just making you harder to jam, at the moment its use is very limited due to the lack of free midslots on your average pvp setup.
If you have it active, doesnt it make you harder to be scan probed too? But I agree, it would be cool if it did something on its own (ie-not just a counter to something else).
Sensor boosters will help counter against sensor damps due to the stacking-penalty aswell as the overall boost to lock time/range.
With that logic, and knowing that ECM reduces the number or lockable targets to 0, shouldnt ECCM boost the number of allowable targets when active (like +1 or 2) aswell as make it harder to be jammed? Just a thought. ------------------------------------------------------------------
|
Grimpak
Gallente Trinity Nova Trinity Nova Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.03.07 17:49:00 -
[16]
damps or BYOECM (Bring Your Own ECM)
also rooks might be very hard to damp down. a single sensor booster with no script will put the rook targeting stuff at over 240km. also damps lose efficiency at ranges above 48km, altho their falloff is 80km AND, a range-rigged rook can hit his racials at over 212km. nevermind the fact that the rook has 32pts of sensor str, wich is basically the strongest str in all non-cap ships.
my advice is get another rook pilot on your gang. it will not just help you out immensly in all engagements, but it will also be harder to jam by the enemy rook. You will have some trouble jamming the enemy rook however, but it's a risk that you might want to take. ---
Trinity Nova Mercenary Services Web Site - Nominated for the 2008 E-ON Magazine Awards |
Stuart Price
Caldari Havoc Inc Blood Blind
|
Posted - 2008.03.07 19:17:00 -
[17]
Caldari recons, particularly a Falcon, are extremely hard to actually kill since they typically engage from 100-200km away and any decent pilot will have multiple warp in points and remain aligned so they can bug out once something moves to tackle them.
That said, if you can get damps on it that works, since they almost always engage at maximum range. If you can sneak a cloaked ship up on it that's also a bonus. Just be aware that the cloaked ship must be capable of either damping the recon's range low enough to make it safe from being jammed (tough when it can lock over 200km away in the case of a properly setup Falcon) OR nuking its cap or shields REALLY quick.
A couple of sensor boosted bombers would be useful assuming they can get missiles away and close enough before they get jammed. If you time the decloak for just after the recon begins its jamming cycle you have the best chance of success since it will need to wait for the cycle to end before it can reassign jammers on whatever is attacking it.
Sadly though, your absolute best chance is a sensor boosted, racial jamming, ECCM loaded Falcon decloaking, speed-locking and counter-jamming. Just make sure that your own ECM is out of harms way since it will be primaried very, very fast if it's within range.
As a force multiplier, well used Falcons are simply unmatched by any other ship in the game and it's likely to stay that way for some time to come. "I got soul but I'm not a soldier" |
Tai Paktu
Kiith Paktu Nex Eternus
|
Posted - 2008.03.07 19:45:00 -
[18]
These are all excellent ways to counter a Rook. I don't know what you're gang consists of or what your pilots are capable of flying, but if you could run an Arazu and an Eos with a Sensor Integrity Link in gang, in addition to fitting some ECCM or remote ECCM, you become extremely difficult to jam. Recons generally have high sensor strengths so jamming the Rook becomes an issue of pilot skill, expensive mods/rigs and luck.
Alternatively, put a cov-ops close to that Rook and have 1 or 2 pilots waiting away from the rest of the fight deal with him before joining the rest of your fleet. With that 'razu you could get on top of the Rook fairly quickly and stealthily and then damp the **** out of him, making him next to useless. Even if he did manage to get a few jam cycles in, your Eos and ECCM/remote ECM would make life hell for that pilot.
Good luck, and battle report on CAOD afterwards! __________________________
|
Yana Kaar
|
Posted - 2008.03.07 19:54:00 -
[19]
one thing I see as a problem is:
to counter or weaken... - damps: you will need to fit a sensor booster. one is mostly enough. Does it help you in pvp even when no arazu/lachesis is on the other side? yes it does. faster/wider targeting is quite nice. - webs: youll need to get a) outta webrange OR b) travel faster. a rapier/huginn can disable ONE closerange-ship. missileships or sniper mostly dont care about webs. do ABs/MWDs help you in pvp even without webs? of course. - Nos/Neuts: youll need a) a capindependant system (ie some drake-setups) or b) cap bosster with timed rep cycles. they surely help you even with no curse/pilgrim. Tank lasts longer/eternal.
Do ECCMs help you in any way when no ECM is in the match? NO ECM is (in my eyes) the heaviest EW-Type. A specialised ship (caldari Recon/blackbird/Scorp) has no big problems jamming more than one targets at one time. You can completely disable a ships weapon system (except drones/FOF which both are quite unreliable without orders, FOF even harmful for your own gang). And the only counter is a module, which does NOT help you anywhere else.
I know, ECM got 'nerfed' before, so only specialised ships get the same strengh as before the "nerf". But damps got also nerfed, webs have VERY low range, NOS got nerfed to hell, even became unusuable.
My suggestion is: give ECCM a second, not that big bonus, so it will also give them a use when you encounter NO ECM-Ships. Too small to make it THE module for that purpose, but also useful. At this moment, ECCM would only be fitted, when you know that there will be any ECM-ships.
|
SheriffFruitfly
Caldari FlyinPenguin Enterprises
|
Posted - 2008.03.07 20:04:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Stuart Price That said, if you can get damps on it that works
Would damps + scram be an option?
|
|
Trevor Warps
|
Posted - 2008.03.07 20:15:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Yoko Lee
I pilot falcon, its a great ship, too much? yes, easy to jam 3/4 bs.
THANKS for saying. I really think ECM is too good atm. You can put out of the fight 2 to 4 ships easy. Hell, a blackbird can pretty much perma jam my megathron ... At least with a celestis i can try to approach and lock him, theres hope.
I want a skill to increase sensor strenght of ship 5% per lvl pls.
|
Grimpak
Gallente Trinity Nova Trinity Nova Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.03.07 20:44:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Stuart Price That said, if you can get damps on it that works, since they almost always engage at maximum range.
it works if you manage to land the dampner ship at <60-70km from the rook.
don't forget that it's easy to get a rook jamming stuff at 212km, something that dampners can only dream of, and a single sensor booster would boost the rook by much more than just 250km. ECM on the rook will also be hard, due to the 32 grav. sensor strength the ship has. To be sure that you have some 90% to jam the rook you need to dedicate at least 2-3 racials just for counter him.
the falcon is more easy in this aspect however, since it has a bit less strength than the scorpion (22 vs scorps 24, if I'm not mistaken), and has less targeting range. ---
Trinity Nova Mercenary Services Web Site - Nominated for the 2008 E-ON Magazine Awards |
Haradgrim
Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION
|
Posted - 2008.03.07 21:05:00 -
[23]
The Falcon and Rook are great ships, however, if you plan ahead, they are pretty easy to counter. Grab an eagle, set it up for range, toss on an ECCM and voila.... yes you had to designate a ship to deal with it, but they had to designate a ship to do it in the first place......
This can be done with other ships/setups too.
Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
|
Megan Maynard
Minmatar Out of Order
|
Posted - 2008.03.07 21:06:00 -
[24]
Same way to counter all Recon ships. Throw more ships at it then it can handle.
this works for all of them: It can only jam so many people. It can only neut/nos so many people. It can only web so many people. It can only dampen/warp jam so many people.
This ships are pretty damn good at what they do, and killing them isn't easy. Miz Stelth Bomerz iz the ****nit. |
Trevor Warps
|
Posted - 2008.03.07 21:15:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Megan Maynard
this works for all of them: It can jam up to 3-4 ships It can only neut/nos efficiently one ship It can only web realisticly up to two ships It can only dampen efficiently one ship
More like it
|
sAyArrrr
Glauxian Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.03.07 21:23:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Trevor Warps
Originally by: Megan Maynard
this works for all of them: It can jam up to 3-4 ships It can only neut/nos efficiently one ship It can only web realisticly up to two ships It can only dampen efficiently one ship
More like it
This.
|
Grimpak
Gallente Trinity Nova Trinity Nova Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.03.07 21:30:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Trevor Warps
Originally by: Megan Maynard
this works for all of them: It can jam up to 3-4 ships It can only neut/nos efficiently one ship It can only web realisticly up to two ships It can only dampen efficiently one ship
More like it
so true. ---
Trinity Nova Mercenary Services Web Site - Nominated for the 2008 E-ON Magazine Awards |
Garmon
Minmatar Genos Occidere
|
Posted - 2008.03.07 21:34:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Garmon on 07/03/2008 21:35:08 You can't really compare the Rook/Falcon to the other recons, since it has no tackling ability and no dps, but I think the falcon is overpowered, there is no reason at all to fly the Rook, there is not much price difference, a nice fix would be to nerf the range of the Falcon's jamming ability
Countering a ECM ship is quite easy, but when you're not prepared, they do so much __________________________________
Garmonation - Rupture fun video |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
|
Posted - 2008.03.07 22:41:00 -
[29]
In your scenario where you don't have a numerical advantage, ie. small gang warfare, a fast hac will usually be enough to force him to disengage or switch ecm to hac - either way the job is accomplished and your BC/BS are left to do their jobs.
If he does not bugger out or switch to the hac he is just a killmail waiting to happen :)
If for some reason there is no nano-hacs in your gangs the ECCM is probably your best bet (getting a nanoed hac is recommended either way, very useful ships even if a bit lame when exaggerated)
|
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.03.08 08:51:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Arkios Odymei
Originally by: Sokratesz ECCM should have some other advantage than just making you harder to jam, at the moment its use is very limited due to the lack of free midslots on your average pvp setup.
If you have it active, doesnt it make you harder to be scan probed too? But I agree, it would be cool if it did something on its own (ie-not just a counter to something else).
Sensor boosters will help counter against sensor damps due to the stacking-penalty aswell as the overall boost to lock time/range.
With that logic, and knowing that ECM reduces the number or lockable targets to 0, shouldnt ECCM boost the number of allowable targets when active (like +1 or 2) aswell as make it harder to be jammed? Just a thought.
What they could do is this..when jammed, your lockable targets go to 0. For every ECCM module this gets increased by a certain amount. Lowslot ECCM = +1 lockable target when jammed, midslot = 2. They would need an increase in CPU used, obviously, but this would make ECCM a much more viable choice as it does two things..decrease the chance of being jammed, and even if you are, give you a very slight chance of fighting back still.
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |