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Jukhta Mein
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Posted - 2008.03.09 05:31:00 -
[1]
Hey there, I am an occasional hauler who wishes to seek some advice from authorities on trading. I've been browsing the MD forums for months now and I can't really find what I need. And the 1 and only available guide on the topic isn't very elaborate.
Basically,
- how do you know what consumers in that particular 0.0 space demand? I've tried going by volume traded under the price history tab, but it doesn't work. Drones, ammo and rat-specific items are standard stuff that everyone knows so no need to go into that.
- how much of a mark-up should one be looking for minimally?
- what do you do if your items don't sell for months, even at jita market prices?
Other pointers and advice welcome.
Anyway, I have noticed the vast majority of people here do station trading. A bit of a pity really, that one can get rich just by sitting in a station riding on the ignorance of the masses. Nothing wrong with that, it happens in real life too, people getting filty rich at the expense of others. But as a hauler I would like to think that I am adding value to the community as well, through the service of transportation. I only wish more traders would get out of their stations and do the same.
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Amarr Citizen 155
Alternative Methods Research Group
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Posted - 2008.03.09 05:36:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Jukhta Mein Hey there,
Anyway, I have noticed the vast majority of people here do station trading. A bit of a pity really, that one can get rich just by sitting in a station riding on the ignorance of the masses. Nothing wrong with that, it happens in real life too, people getting filty rich at the expense of others. But as a hauler I would like to think that I am adding value to the community as well, through the service of transportation. I only wish more traders would get out of their stations and do the same.
Hauling and trading are two separate things. If traders got out of their stations to do the same as you, they wouldn't be traders anymore, they would be haulers. Please don't confuse the two.
---------------------------------------------- Why do it the hard way when you can do it the AMARR way. |
Jukhta Mein
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Posted - 2008.03.09 05:42:00 -
[3]
The trader buys low and sells high. He does research on markets and buying/selling patterns, etc.
I do all of that too. On top of that I get out of the station and transport the goods to dangerous space where supply is somewhat limited.
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Treelox
Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
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Posted - 2008.03.09 05:45:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Jukhta Mein Anyway, I have noticed the vast majority of people here do station trading. A bit of a pity really, that one can get rich just by sitting in a station riding on the ignorance of the masses. Nothing wrong with that, it happens in real life too, people getting filty rich at the expense of others. But as a hauler I would like to think that I am adding value to the community as well, through the service of transportation. I only wish more traders would get out of their stations and do the same.
with this one paragraph you have alienated most of the people who would have most likely given you any answers. You really shouldnt crap on those you seek help from before they have given you the help.
Also as AC said, Trading and Hauling are seperate professions, and not mutually inclusive of each other. Sometimes they compliment each other, but one does not nessacary need the other to survive in a micro sense. --
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Treelox
Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
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Posted - 2008.03.09 05:46:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Jukhta Mein
I do all of that too. On top of that I get out of the station and transport the goods to dangerous space where supply is somewhat limited.
umm err GRATZ?...well then make sure you charge them more for your services. --
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.03.09 07:47:00 -
[6]
I personally sell all my items for a loss if they don't sell in 24 hours of putting them up. You should as well.
Seriously, figure it out yourself. You think you're better than people here because you spend time hauling... whereas most of the people here rely on people like you to do the grunt work for us. I love haulers... they allow me to sit in one place and do nothing but trade. Kind of like CEO's like the robots they have working the assembly lines in their plants.
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Jukhta Mein
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Posted - 2008.03.09 09:03:00 -
[7]
Look, I have already mentioned that I do whatever that a trader does - which is precisely why I would like some trader's advice.
I buy low and sell high. I look into the markets just like any other trader. I dont do courier stuff - I think thats what you are referring to as the grunt. Repeat: I do not do courier. I do not haul goods mindlessly for others. I buy low and sell high. The only difference is I do the additional work of transporting goods for myself In short, I am both the CEO and the grunt. This isn't to sound holier-than-thou. This is just to tell you that I am doing trading work as well, just not station trading work.
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Roguehalo
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.03.09 09:33:00 -
[8]
You can leave stations?
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Ambo
2nd Outcasters
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Posted - 2008.03.09 11:05:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Jukhta Mein How do you know what consumers in that particular 0.0 space demand?
Experience and research, both of the market in general and asking the people who live there.
Quote: How much of a mark-up should one be looking for minimally?
How long it a piece of string? Personally, I always aim to make as much profit per hour as I possibly can. Note that this does not necesarilly mean getting the maximum margin per item. It's a carefull balancing act that takes time to master.
Quote: What do you do if your items don't sell for months, even at jita market prices?
I've never put myself in that position, if I was then I would shift those items ASAP, at a loss if needed. Cash in inventory is cash that's not avaliable to trade with.
--------------------------------------
Trader? Investor? Just want to track your finances? Check out EMMA |
Dr Clark
Universal Transporation Solutions
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Posted - 2008.03.09 14:02:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Jukhta Mein Hey there, I am an occasional hauler who wishes to seek some advice from authorities on trading. I've been browsing the MD forums for months now and I can't really find what I need. And the 1 and only available guide on the topic isn't very elaborate.
Basically,
- how do you know what consumers in that particular 0.0 space demand? I've tried going by volume traded under the price history tab, but it doesn't work. Drones, ammo and rat-specific items are standard stuff that everyone knows so no need to go into that.
- how much of a mark-up should one be looking for minimally?
- what do you do if your items don't sell for months, even at jita market prices?
Other pointers and advice welcome.
Anyway, I have noticed the vast majority of people here do station trading. A bit of a pity really, that one can get rich just by sitting in a station riding on the ignorance of the masses. Nothing wrong with that, it happens in real life too, people getting filty rich at the expense of others. But as a hauler I would like to think that I am adding value to the community as well, through the service of transportation. I only wish more traders would get out of their stations and do the same.
What about me? All I do is haul and fill those courior missions. I very rarley trade anything, something im takin a class for. <----- thanx hexx
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Kwint Sommer
Lothian Quay Industries Otaku Invasion
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Posted - 2008.03.09 20:41:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Jukhta Mein Anyway, I have noticed the vast majority of people here do station trading. A bit of a pity really, that one can get rich just by sitting in a station riding on the ignorance of the masses. Nothing wrong with that, it happens in real life too, people getting filty rich at the expense of others. But as a hauler I would like to think that I am adding value to the community as well, through the service of transportation. I only wish more traders would get out of their stations and do the same.
What's a pity is that in your first post on MD you managed to insult the vast majority of it members.
5% Mining & Manufacturing Implants |
Daeva Vios
New Eden Credit Bureau
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Posted - 2008.03.09 21:10:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Daeva Vios on 09/03/2008 21:14:48 Edited by: Daeva Vios on 09/03/2008 21:12:13
Originally by: Jukhta Mein Anyway, I have noticed the vast majority of people here do station trading. A bit of a pity really, that one can get rich just by sitting in a station riding on the ignorance of the masses. Nothing wrong with that, it happens in real life too, people getting filty rich at the expense of others. But as a hauler I would like to think that I am adding value to the community as well, through the service of transportation. I only wish more traders would get out of their stations and do the same.
Welcome to Capitalism. People are paying the prices they are willing to pay for the goods they want. Couriers are moving goods at rates they find acceptable. People are selling the items they don't want for prices they find acceptable.
Nobody goes home unfulfilled unless they behave foolishly.
Goodbye and good luck.
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Petyr Baelich
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2008.03.09 22:31:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Jukhta Mein Anyway, I have noticed the vast majority of people here do station trading. A bit of a pity really, that one can get rich just by sitting in a station riding on the ignorance of the masses. Nothing wrong with that, it happens in real life too, people getting filty rich at the expense of others. But as a hauler I would like to think that I am adding value to the community as well, through the service of transportation. I only wish more traders would get out of their stations and do the same.
Ignorance of the masses? Sorry, I'm not a member of any clergy. :) Trading is a vital part of any market-based economy. If there were no traders or resellers you would see great shifts in prices as items were introduced onto the market. Traders provide a valuable regulatory service and actually keep prices down. Traders make their money by making things convinient for both buyers and sellers of goods. Producers have a ready market of buy orders to sell their goods to without having to wait for specific individuals to come along and buy small numbers of goods from them. This leaves them free to concentrate on obtaining raw materials and actually producing their goods. Consumers also benefit by having a ready supply of goods on the market, which have already been regulated in price by demand and competition between traders which they can purchase at market prices without having to spend time waiting for their orders to be filled. This leaves them free to run missions, mine, pvp, or do whatever activities they desire. Traders are not parasites, your misconceptions only serve to limit your own potential in your chosen field.
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Tasko Pal
Heron Corporation
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Posted - 2008.03.09 23:47:00 -
[14]
It saddens me to see threads like this. Everyone should know that the finding and hoarding of scrap metal is the sole noble pursuit in all of Eve. Anything else and you are a pathetic wretch, taking food from the mouths of babes.
More seriously, I would call the original poster a trader. While he does his own hauling, the isk comes from trading. Station traders appear to be some combination of market makers, arbitragers, and speculators, all fine trader occupations.
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Ashina Sito
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.03.09 23:54:00 -
[15]
OT
As used in Eve the word "trader" is a bit of a misnomer. The correct definitions shoul d be as follows.
Hauler - someone who does courier contracts. They take item x from system/station A to system/station B. They do this for other people, not themselves.
Trader - Someone who buys and sells good but, when the goods are moved they do the hauling themselves.
Marketieer - Someone who sits in a station buying and selling goods. They may have goods moved from one location to another but would contract that out.
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Brisco Smiley
Peppermint Bay Trading Company
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Posted - 2008.03.10 00:09:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Tasko Pal It saddens me to see threads like this. Everyone should know that the finding and hoarding of scrap metal is the sole noble pursuit in all of Eve. Anything else and you are a pathetic wretch, taking food from the mouths of babes.
The way tritanium has been lately, I've been reprocessing some of my scraps.
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Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2008.03.10 00:16:00 -
[17]
Quote: Station traders appear to be some combination of market makers, arbitragers, and speculators, all fine trader occupations.
*cough*daytrading*cough*
Improve Market Competition! |
Tasko Pal
Heron Corporation
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Posted - 2008.03.10 00:43:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Kylar Renpurs
Quote: Station traders appear to be some combination of market makers, arbitragers, and speculators, all fine trader occupations.
*cough*daytrading*cough*
Daytraders are just market makers maybe with a bit of speculator.
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No Mahd
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Posted - 2008.03.10 13:20:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Jukhta Mein Hey there,
1. how do you know what consumers in that particular 0.0 space demand?
2. how much of a mark-up should one be looking for minimally?
3. what do you do if your items don't sell for months, even at jita market prices?
1. Real good question - hard to say - even in hi sec places. Do some research, take some gambles - you could find a goldmine or you may find nothing. If you find an opportunity - milk it to death :-) Ask the locals or see what they are doing.
2. Look at the price that people have been buying for and go higher :-)
3. Ideally your stuff should be selling and sold out next time u log in - if there is no movement for a few days - consider it a waste of your orders - u can take a decision to lower ur prices and evenutually sell everything - or maybe sell to a lower buy order ansd dump ur goods - yep take a loss if you have to.
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Jukhta Mein
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Posted - 2008.03.10 14:08:00 -
[20]
Thanks to those provided some advice.
Thanks to Ashina Sito for coming up with some useful definitions:
Quote: As used in Eve the word "trader" is a bit of a misnomer. The correct definitions should be as follows.
Hauler - someone who does courier contracts. They take item x from system/station A to system/station B. They do this for other people, not themselves.
Trader - Someone who buys and sells good but, when the goods are moved they do the hauling themselves.
Marketeer - Someone who sits in a station buying and selling goods. They may have goods moved from one location to another but would contract that out.
Originally by: Petyr Baelich Traders provide a valuable regulatory service and actually keep prices down. Traders make their money by making things convinient for both buyers and sellers of goods. Producers have a ready market of buy orders to sell their goods to without having to wait for specific individuals to come along and buy small numbers of goods from them. This leaves them free to concentrate on obtaining raw materials and actually producing their goods. Consumers also benefit by having a ready supply of goods on the market, which have already been regulated in price by demand and competition between traders which they can purchase at market prices without having to spend time waiting for their orders to be filled. This leaves them free to run missions, mine, pvp, or do whatever activities they desire. Traders are not parasites, your misconceptions only serve to limit your own potential in your chosen field.
Some fair points there, but in a scenario where Seller A wishes to sell some loot he got from, say, pvp, and sells it to a buy order set up by a marketeer instead of setting up his own sell order due to irrational behavior (impatience to see some immediate tangible reward, for example), or plain ignorance (you will be surprised at how many people dont know how to set up a sell order? Also look at miner-producers who think that mining is free), then the marketeer is capitalising on such weaknesses and reselling those items bought cheaply at profits which should have belonged to the original seller.
Anyway, a few have said if you dont manage to sell your goods in X period sell them at a loss. May I ask why is this practiced when 1) you can move the goods elsewhere 2) you can simply wait it out, then move the goods elsewhere? 3) you have substantial amounts of cash in your wallet?
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Daeva Vios
New Eden Credit Bureau
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Posted - 2008.03.10 14:14:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Daeva Vios on 10/03/2008 14:14:45 Opportunity Cost.
But since you still don't understand capitalism even after I gave you a link to the explanation of it, I really don't expect you to read that either.
Let's just say "It's market magic" or if you prefer "all people who make money through organizational skills instead of through some other means are evil" which really seems far more suited to your attitude.
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Jukhta Mein
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Posted - 2008.03.10 14:54:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Daeva Vios Edited by: Daeva Vios on 10/03/2008 14:15:49 Edited by: Daeva Vios on 10/03/2008 14:14:45 Opportunity Cost.
But since you still don't understand capitalism even after I gave you a link to the explanation of it, I really don't expect you to read that either.
Let's just say "It's market magic" or if you prefer "all people who make money through organizational skills instead of through some other means are evil and know things they won't explain to me in simple terms" which really seems far more suited to your attitude.
I pvp too so I can't have all my money in the form of equipment to sell.
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Henry Shirburn
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Posted - 2008.03.10 15:01:00 -
[23]
Originally by: No Mahd
3. Ideally your stuff should be selling and sold out next time u log in - if there is no movement for a few days - consider it a waste of your orders - u can take a decision to lower ur prices and evenutually sell everything - or maybe sell to a lower buy order ansd dump ur goods - yep take a loss if you have to.
do you manage to get most of your stuff sold on a daily basis?! i'm coming back to my trader to find an increasing amount of junk everyday! guess i'm putting in too large buy orders?
what ratio of orders do you use for buying / selling? i'm using 1 buy slot for every 5 sells (selling up to 5 jumps out) - is there some magic ratio or am i just picking stuff that people don't want (think i've answered my own question there!)
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Somerled MacDhommal
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.03.10 16:31:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Somerled MacDhommal on 10/03/2008 16:35:02 What i do is sit in jita and buy goods i think are good, and buy as much as i can. When buy orders get outdated, i simply up my buy price to be the top.
I then sell my materials off to those who want them with sell orders. The difference is my profit.
there is no magic ratio. I buy using most of my cash on hand, and save a few mill to incerease my buy orders. And then i sell off everything when i buy it.
Depending on the item, i either buy 10 or 20 at a time.
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No Mahd
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Posted - 2008.03.10 17:33:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Henry Shirburn
Originally by: No Mahd
3. Ideally your stuff should be selling and sold out next time u log in - if there is no movement for a few days - consider it a waste of your orders - u can take a decision to lower ur prices and evenutually sell everything - or maybe sell to a lower buy order ansd dump ur goods - yep take a loss if you have to.
do you manage to get most of your stuff sold on a daily basis?! i'm coming back to my trader to find an increasing amount of junk everyday! guess i'm putting in too large buy orders?
what ratio of orders do you use for buying / selling? i'm using 1 buy slot for every 5 sells (selling up to 5 jumps out) - is there some magic ratio or am i just picking stuff that people don't want (think i've answered my own question there!)
That's the ideal - only a few times I have had the pleasure of selling items faster than I could stock up - this led to me acquring more of the item and then passing that point -
The range in buy orders have a few times led to me acquiring a large volume of stock in the wrong location = basically you could undercut the entire region by a decent % - and still the stock will not sell - time is money - and a lot of people will pay more for stuff right now rather than travelling 4-5+ systems away
I dont have no fixed ratio - I just try and be flexible so that I can react to any changes in the market -
Knowing your area is key - as a large range buy order could get you a whole lot of stuff - someone else was not able to sell :-)
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Petyr Baelich
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2008.03.10 18:48:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Jukhta Mein Some fair points there, but in a scenario where Seller A wishes to sell some loot he got from, say, pvp, and sells it to a buy order set up by a marketeer instead of setting up his own sell order due to irrational behavior (impatience to see some immediate tangible reward, for example), or plain ignorance (you will be surprised at how many people dont know how to set up a sell order? Also look at miner-producers who think that mining is free), then the marketeer is capitalising on such weaknesses and reselling those items bought cheaply at profits which should have belonged to the original seller.
Ok, so let me get this straight... Someone selling loot from say, hmmm, gee... piracy deserves top dollar for his goods and it's the trader who is being immoral by offering him less than they will sell it for themselves?
Impatience and ignorance of game mechanics should be rewarded but patience and knowledge should not be? Nice moral system. Not a big fan of Orwell, are you? Are mission runners immoral because they typically fly much better ships than NPCs and use better tactics? It's woefully unfair and mean to the poor guristas, sansha and angel pirates.
No one forces people to sell to my buy orders or buy from my sell orders. They do so because their time is more valuably spent on other activities. There are much more consistently profitable endeavors in EVE than market trading for people who do not understand economics or horribly arcane procedures such as setting up a sell/buy order. Is it possible to make more isk/hr trading than doing almost anything else? Certainly; and with exponentially fewer skill points invested. Is it also possible, even likely, that you will show not a profit, but a loss for your investments? Oh yes, especially if you don't understand what you are doing.
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Ben Bitdiddle
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Posted - 2008.03.10 19:02:00 -
[27]
My advice to you is:
1) Do not get into moral debates about trading.
2) Do not get into semantic debates about anything.
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AegisX
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.03.10 19:10:00 -
[28]
All I can say is I always feel very terrible about offering people more money for stuff than the other guy. Oh, and selling stuff cheaper... that's bad too.
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