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Kelbesque Crystalis
Eve University
Ivy League
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Posted - 2008.03.18 21:45:00 -
[481]
 Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 18/03/2008 21:27:03
Originally by: Kelbesque Crystalis
>cough< Vargur >cough<
I don't fly bs, so no marauders as well, so please bear with me - what do you think the Vargur is lacking? It's quite clear it won't get fittings for artillery (as that would make AC fittings very strong), so we'll have to stick with ACs.
For PvE, comparing it with a Maelstrom, I get a pretty strong perma-running shield tank (561 dps vs. Mael with 439) and very nice dps (622 vs. 439) at quite a nice speed (499 m/s vs. 364 m/s). The range is a lot shorter (3+30 vs. 24+44), and fighting that much in falloff will usually mean a considerable drop in dps. This shiny new dps graph tells me the Vargur drops in dps below the Maelstrom at about 25km, which is pretty close for the usual mission running experience.
If I'm right from what I read mostly about the Vargur, people want it to be effective at a longer ranges. Problem here is that you can't just add more falloff (I mean, a battleship shooting others at 100km with close-range weapons, where would EVE come to if THAT happened  ). So, would replacing the falloff bonus with a pg reduction for large artillery be an idea?
"Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% reduction in Large Projectile Artillery powergrid need per level"
Would reduce a 1200mm cannon to just above 800mm pg need.
Would that solve the Vargur problems you see?
(Question is of course whether that is actually implementable in the current system; I strongly suspect the game engine can not differentiate sufficiently between AC and artillery)
You are correct in that range is the problem for mission running. The biggest issue here is making a setup that works for PvE and doesn't break PvP. I think the reduced PG for artillery is a good idea, but may lead to stupid setups. Personally, i'd rather see the gap in PG from artillery to AC's a little smaller across the board, with all ships adjusted according. I feel many Minmatar fitting issues from this disparity.
Removing the falloff bonus would sadly gimp the only thing that makes this ship unique. Falloff does help artillery, although not as much as optimal. This ship is less than compelling since a Maelstrom is a better mission runner. Its easier to fit, and you can stack more damage/tracking mods.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.18 22:06:00 -
[482]
Edited by: Goumindong on 18/03/2008 22:09:17
Originally by: Arkady Sadik
I don't fly bs, so no marauders as well, so please bear with me - what do you think the Vargur is lacking? It's quite clear it won't just get "more pg" to fit artillery (as that would make AC fittings very strong).
Not really. While there is a larger discrepancy between ACs and Arties powergrid[than say hybrids and rails, not really between large beams and pulses] needs there are also very few turret slots on the Vargur mean that the amount of Powergrid you would be able to get out of it would be very similar to the Paladin and Kronos.
It probably doesn't need artillery to be a good mission runner, its fast, has great tracking a kickass tank and the ability to use its short range guns [with variable damage types] against most rats[63km falloff with ambits and barrage!], but its not going to become an uber pvp ship anyway without a sensor strength increase so there isn't much to worry about on that front.
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Kelbesque Crystalis
Eve University
Ivy League
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Posted - 2008.03.18 22:23:00 -
[483]
Originally by: Goumindong
Not really. While there is a larger discrepancy between ACs and Arties powergrid[than say hybrids and rails, not really between large beams and pulses] needs there are also very few turret slots on the Vargur mean that the amount of Powergrid you would be able to get out of it would be very similar to the Paladin and Kronos.
It probably doesn't need artillery to be a good mission runner, its fast, has great tracking a kickass tank and the ability to use its short range guns [with variable damage types] against most rats[63km falloff with ambits and barrage!], but its not going to become an uber pvp ship anyway without a sensor strength increase so there isn't much to worry about on that front.
It only shines in missions where you get dumped off at close range when the enemies are weak against Barrage damage types (exp/kin i.e. only vs angels). Other wise a properly setup 1400mm Maelstrom will walk all over it. Hell, an arty setup Vargur would prob be more effective in 90% of the missions, even gimped as it is. All the Vargur has going for it as far as mission running is concerned is the tractor/salvage on-the-fly-option. It's not fast enoguh to not need an AB (read: its slower than a Mach) and its too easy to pimp any PvE tanking setup for the extra resists to matter that much.
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Kelbesque Crystalis
Eve University
Ivy League
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Posted - 2008.03.18 22:31:00 -
[484]
Originally by: Goumindong
[with variable damage types]
Oh and to put to rest this point: Even with variable damage types in PvE scenarios, Rails still out DPS Artillery on all rat types except vs Angeles on a comparable fit mission ship. This is due projectile ammo a) always having a exp/kin portion and b) emp and phased plasma doing ~10% less damage compared to other short range ammos.
PvP is obviously a different story since no one mimics rat resists.
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Ath Amon
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.03.18 22:41:00 -
[485]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Lalita Prestoc
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Arkady Sadik
To nitpick: They have been testing, you have not. But you disagree with their test setup.
Anecdotes are not tests.
Theoretical analysis does not always equal practical performance when theres so many variables to go wrong on.
Pilot error is not a reason to modify balance.
pilot error is your because you dont know how to use drones or overheat
you are not doing a comparsion or sort of simulation you are doing this sort of joke between a tempest and the X ship making it do what you want to make the tempest win
use overheat mwd/webbers? nope, for you a pest can kite at 12km (lol)
use their drones to counterdrone yours? nope, you have no idea about counterdroning so all you do is calculate pest dps with drones and other ship whitout drones (and this is far far from an honest and accurate dps comparsion)
use webber drones + mid/ecm on high damage blaster boat? nope, even if they will web the pest and permit to a gankblaster boat to close the range very fast and melt it (again ganka mega/hype do almost 1k dps with guns only, then it will have medium to add if they dont use scm)
on top of that your pest is also subomptimal in an 1vs1 scenario.
you refused to listen to all that suggestion thinking it seem about some minmatar consiparcy to make their ship uber and conquering eve... welkome to minmatar online!
you just refuse to even consider that you where wrong even is situations like pest vs phoon where the phoon have basically more tank, more dps, more speed, more droning/counterdroning capabilities and your TD vs him is useless...
your simulation is all cept objective, you chose the pest to win and consider just the strategies that make it win or just close your eyes and state that others are wrong as the phoon and other stuff
Originally by: Diana Merris
Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.18 22:54:00 -
[486]
Edited by: Goumindong on 18/03/2008 22:55:20
Originally by: Kelbesque Crystalis
Originally by: Goumindong
Not really. While there is a larger discrepancy between ACs and Arties powergrid[than say hybrids and rails, not really between large beams and pulses] needs there are also very few turret slots on the Vargur mean that the amount of Powergrid you would be able to get out of it would be very similar to the Paladin and Kronos.
It probably doesn't need artillery to be a good mission runner, its fast, has great tracking a kickass tank and the ability to use its short range guns [with variable damage types] against most rats[63km falloff with ambits and barrage!], but its not going to become an uber pvp ship anyway without a sensor strength increase so there isn't much to worry about on that front.
It only shines in missions where you get dumped off at close range when the enemies are weak against Barrage damage types (exp/kin i.e. only vs angels). Other wise a properly setup 1400mm Maelstrom will walk all over it. Hell, an arty setup Vargur would prob be more effective in 90% of the missions, even gimped as it is. All the Vargur has going for it as far as mission running is concerned is the tractor/salvage on-the-fly-option. It's not fast enoguh to not need an AB (read: its slower than a Mach) and its too easy to pimp any PvE tanking setup for the extra resists to matter that much.
that is a lot to live up to in order to qualify as "good".
Also, i hope you don't get the impression i think that the Vargur doesn't need more powergrid. I am just saying its still plenty strong with AC's as a mission ship.
edit: Ath Amon quit lying.
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MONOCERUS
Xenobytes
Stain Empire
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Posted - 2008.03.18 22:58:00 -
[487]
Originally by: haq aan
1 - TEMPEST
- Outdpsed by Abaddon, Hyperion, Megathron, Raven so on.
- OutAlphaed by Abaddon, Maelstorm
- Outtanked by ..by...i dont know maybe the worst tankin BS out there 
I dont think this ship needs 7th turret, but even with double bonus to its guns, maybe its the worst BS atm in every aspect.
Agility increase (close to CS) , and some speed tweaks looks best atm.
Quote:
that's all tier 3 battleships. why you want tier 2 be better than tier 3? :D
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Kelbesque Crystalis
Eve University
Ivy League
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Posted - 2008.03.18 23:00:00 -
[488]
Originally by: Goumindong
Also, i hope you don't get the impression i think that the Vargur doesn't need more powergrid. I am just saying its still plenty strong with AC's as a mission ship.
edit: Ath Amon quit lying.
I've done missions in a Mael with 3x falloff rigs and Barrage. Its not something I want to repeat. An extra ~35% more falloff prob wont change my opinion of the situation, nor will a few minutes work with any decent turret tracking guide.
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Veryez
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.03.19 01:20:00 -
[489]
Originally by: Goumindong
Edited by: Goumindong on 18/03/2008 22:09:17
Not really. While there is a larger discrepancy between ACs and Arties powergrid[than say hybrids and rails, not really between large beams and pulses] needs there are also very few turret slots on the Vargur mean that the amount of Powergrid you would be able to get out of it would be very similar to the Paladin and Kronos.
It probably doesn't need artillery to be a good mission runner, its fast, has great tracking a kickass tank and the ability to use its short range guns [with variable damage types] against most rats[63km falloff with ambits and barrage!], but its not going to become an uber pvp ship anyway without a sensor strength increase so there isn't much to worry about on that front.
You can't honestly believe what you said. It is the worst selling Marauder by FAR (so I guess many people in Eve don't understand the ship like you do). AC's are horrible for missions, it brings you too close to the npc's where you get webbed and pounded. Have you ever seen anyone use one in missions solo? For a class of ships designed to run missions, it is the worst by a huge margin. Kickass tank? Compared to the golem? First off it's down 1 mid, and needs an AB and web to boot, so it's a 4 slot tank. It gets webbed very fast so the whole 'keeping transversal down' is out the window. Sure it looks nice in EFT, but having flown alongside one in a few missions (and no I will not train marauders - so I don't fly it myself), it is not a good mission runner at all. Here's what it needs to run missions well - A CNR along to tank the damage.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.19 02:01:00 -
[490]
Edited by: Goumindong on 19/03/2008 02:04:30
Vargur tanks as good as a CNR that has a propulsion mod on it. Slightly better actually since it has partial t2 resists. I doubt is does as much damage though, but hey you can't have everything[and the CNR is much better than most faction ships comparatively to their t1 version]. AC's will have lower 0 transversal DPS than Artillery over about 25km, [going by K's numbers in this thread], but that might not be the case when you consider the tracking differences.
edit: Should still get more P.G. but really.
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Neutrino Sunset
KDM Corp
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2008.03.19 02:06:00 -
[491]
Lately there has been a wave upon wave of game mechanic changes with very little time for a settling in period between these changes. Some of these changes have been nerfs to particular ship classes to enforce a new usage model (carrier nerfs), some of these changes have been tweaks to particular ships or modules for balancing purposes (Amarr changes), and some of these changes have been radical new features that completely change fundamental game mechanics (heat).
Where these changes have adjusted the roles of particular ships reducing the percieved value of months of player's skill training, or module changes have nerfed particular ship setups has already been extensively discussed on these forums and I'm going to try not to reiterate that discussion. Changes to ship classes that affect all races equally or modules that we can all use, we can and should adapt to. But looking at all the changes as a whole and picking out some that have an impact on the same aspect of game play I come to the inescapable conclusion that actually an entire race's play style has been seriously nerfed here, and no one else seems to have picked up on that. Which of course raises the possiblilty that my views are totally misguided, in which case if your prepared to read all this, then you can tell me so.
I'm talking about Minmatar ships and tactics. I don't know whether the combat style favoured by the Minmatar is expressly stated anywhere, I've had a quick look through the chronicles but couldn't find anything. But comparing the ships of the various races it seems fairly obvious to me that Minmatar ships are in the whole particularly suited to a 'dictate range and avoid damage' combat style. On the whole they tank poorly compared to the other races ships, even when they have the same number of slots available for tanking they have lower base structure, armour and/or shield values. And their dps potential is generally less than the other races, their turret weapons have less raw dps than anyone elses compounded by lengthy and frequent reloading, and where missiles or drones comprise a major part of their ships damage output they do so generally on ships that suffer from split weapons systems and without having the drone or missile bonuses that the other races get.
The upshot of this being that if you take a Minmatar ship and go toe to toe with its Gallente, Amarr or Caldari counterpart, their somewhat better tank and/or somewhat better dps is usually going to result in you being handed your arse.
So what Minmatar are left with to try and make a successful strategy out of is that their ships are generally slightly faster and more nimble than everybody elses, and that AC has a good falloff range.
Consequently the common strategy behind many Minmatar ship setups is this: maintain enough range from the enemy that their higher damage but short falloff weapons are doing less damage than they would at optimal, while your own lower damage but good falloff AC are still doing ok.
To name a few of the ships this tactic used to work well for: Rifter, Stiletto, Stabber, Ruppy, Hurricane, Tempest.
A minor variation of this for those ships using predominantly missiles and drones for dps is to use range _and_ speed to avoid incoming damage, an obvious example being the cruise missile Typhoon.
Unfortuately a combination of recent game mechanic and module changes has largely nullified these tactics leaving many prevously effective Minmatar ships in a very disadvantaged position. The introduction of heat has caused the biggest problem but this is compounded by tracking modules being nerfed with scripts. Whether buffing tracking disruptors will have an impact remains to be seen.
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Neutrino Sunset
KDM Corp
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2008.03.19 02:07:00 -
[492]
Edited by: Neutrino Sunset on 19/03/2008 02:13:49
Edited by: Neutrino Sunset on 19/03/2008 02:11:26
The problem with heat in a nutshell is this. The Minmatar pilot has to try to stay within a small envelope of effectiveness, to close and the enemies stronger tank and more damaging weapons will overpower him, to far and the prey will escape. But of course you don't know whether the opponents next move will be to attempt to close up to you or to extend and disengage, this leaves you having to react to his moves to stay within your effective envelope.
The first problem is that for some ships the envelope got much smaller due to overheated webs. The second problem for all Minmatar ships is that because of overheated MWD the fact that they might have 200 or 300 km more speed or 5% more agility doesn't really count for anything anymore, and here's a scenario to demonstrate why.
You're in a Minmatar ship keeping good range from a Gallente Amarr or Caldari foe, your ACs are doing just enough dps at optimal plus lots of falloff, while your enemy's guns are either so deep into falloff that you can tank it, or you are outside torp range, or you are out tracking him, whatever. Your primary objective is to keep him scrammed but not let him get too close to you, so you are watching the range and his speed intently. Obviously you cannot have your MWD permanently overheated since stuff will pop, but on the other hand your foe only needs a cycle or 2 of overheated MWD to close up to you, so the ball is in his court. Your first indication that your adversary has overheated his MWD will be when you see his speed start to climb, 'no problem!' you think, all you have to do is overheat your own MWD and as long as your reflexes are good enough all will be peachy. Think again though cos it doesn't work like that.
The cycle time for a MWD is 10 seconds and overheating your MWD has no effect whatsoever until the start of the next cycle, and at the time when you notice that he has overheated his MWD your own MWD cycle may have already just started. Which means that even if you overheat your own MWD at exactly the same time that you see his MWD go overheated it will be anything up to 10 seconds before your own overheated MWD has any effect whatsoever. And given that the overheat effect on a MWD is a massive 50% boost bonus what that boils down to is that no matter how good your reflexes are your adversary will be right on top of you.
Against any kind of short range fitted attacker this is basically curtains and within the basic strategy of 'dictate range and avoid damage' there isn't really anything you can do about it. You will be at the optimal of a blaster boat or whatever, you will almost certainly both be webbed, at webbed speeds the one or two cycles of overheated MWD you have at your disposal before your modules start to pop is not going to enable you to get to a safe distance.
I added the caveat of "within the basic strategy of 'dictate range and avoid damage'" to that analysis because you can try recourse to some sort of esoteric semi-gimped setup involving double webs, ECM, neuts or whatever, but that doesn't actually change anything at all since these options are available to both parties, there is always the potential for your enemy's setup to suprise you, but the scenario does I think adequately demonstrate the degree to which relying mainly on speed and agility to maintain range as part of your combat tactics is now significantly disadvantaged.
So what ships are particulary disadvantaged by these considerations. Well I mostly fly Minmatar and obviously speed is key to the effectiveness of many Minmatar ships so here are a few examples I'm familiar with.
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Neutrino Sunset
KDM Corp
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2008.03.19 02:07:00 -
[493]
Edited by: Neutrino Sunset on 19/03/2008 02:16:06
Claw: This is an absolute nightmare for the Arty Claw because it only has a lock range of 20km and with 2 mid slots it can't fit a web and a scram. Not having a web itself means that if it gets webbed it is practically guaranteed to die since its opponent can then totally dictate range and tracking. But attempting to stay in the 7km envelope between 13km and 20km at the relative velocities of combatting interceptors is an exercise in futility.
Stabber: For the AC Stabber it's even worse. Firstly there is there a good chance that a fast cruiser will be able to use the combination of overheated MWD and web to pin it down and close to optimal. Given that the Stabbers entire tank is its speed this danger effectively removes the option to forgo a web and fit a tracking computer instead, although that is a less attractive option anyway since tracking computers have been horribly nerfed. With no tracking or falloff bonus its damage at 10km with tracking nerfed Barrage M was already fairly pitiful, at 13km plus you really have to ask is it even worth considering? Additionally the option to use medium NOS to supplement the Stabber's appalling cap no longer exists since medium NOS do not have the range to operate from outside overheated web range. It seems to me that the recent changes heap a host of disadvantages upon the Stabber and give nothing back at all, to the extent that in its present state I struggle to see a useful combat role for this ship at all. Stabbed up it makes a pretty good travelling ship, with tractors and salvagers it salvages missions very nicely, but in combat I can't see it being used for anything more than a heavy tackler and in all honesty I think a frigate or interceptor fills that role much more effectively.
Rupture: Over the years there has been an ongoing discussion about which was the best cruiser, and notable candidates have been the Thorax and the Rupture. To me those two ships epitomise the Gallente and Minmatar respective combat ethos, with the Thorax intent on closing to point-blank range and tearing into its prey with blasters and drones, while the Rupture tries to stand off and use greater range to mitigate damage and wear it's opponent down. I believe these ships were previously very well balanced relative to each other, some people thought the Rupture was better while others thought the Thorax was better. I think slightly more people favoured the Thorax is a straight duel, but with the changes heat has brought to the table and in light of the scenario I outlined above I think the Rupture has much less of a chance to hold its own now.
Typhoon and Tempest: One on one short range BS duels are a fairly unlikely combat scenario, nevertheless there is always the possibility that two gangs fight and two BS are left slugging it out at the end. Tank and dps wise the Typhoon and Tempest don't compare well to the Mega Domi or Raven. I have to admit that I've never flown Amarr BS but on paper it looks to me as if they also out tank and out dps the Minmatar BS. Which (esoteric setups aside) also leaves the Typhoon and Tempest trying to use a bit of extra speed and agility to dictate engagement range to mitigate their relatively poor dps and tank. I think the Tempest v Mega has been pretty much done to death in this thread so I'm not going to go into the BS debate any further than to state my opinion that while the Phoon's not bad it's really only ok with crazy skills, and the Tempest is in fairly poor shape against practically every other BS in the game.
On top of the issues with the ships mentioned above I think the Rifter also suffers from the overheat MWD and web situation. This is a great frigate but going into a mutual webbed situation with a blaster frig in the hope that you can standoff enough to take him out with AC looks far less inviting than it previously did.
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Neutrino Sunset
KDM Corp
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2008.03.19 02:08:00 -
[494]
I'm also think its a crying shame that the interceptor changes resulted in the Stiletto losing its falloff bonus. I think it's widely accepted that the Claw has always been mediocre, but a double webbing plated AC Stiletto used to take unwary inty pilots by suprise and was one of the few inties a blaster Ranis pilot had to worry about.
So that's my take on the recent changes and the current situation. What do I think could be done to improve it? Well personally I think heat is a fairly poor idea very badly implemented. A 50% MWD boost that doesn't even use any cap is totally overpowered. It plays right into the hands of every short range setup that only needs a cycle or two of MWD to get into optimal range. The 30% overheated web range boost impacts things like medium NOS range and that don't appear to have been very deeply considered at all. Rather than this new game mechanic being used 'as a last resort to get you out of trouble' as was touted, it is in fact being used as the standard means by which to execute a short range setup's primary attack strategy against faster prey. Furthermore it's an additional degree of micro-management that once everyone has it trained up (which I presume they already do) adds nothing distinctively new to the game beyond making controlling range even more fiddley and time consuming than it already was.
I'm fairly confident that if players wanted an additional level of micro-management that involved the concept of module damage and/or short term increased module efficiency they would have much preferred either subsystem targeting and/or the ability to divert additional capacitor to specific modules. I say that because both of those features have actually been requested by players as potential enhancements on multiple occasions whereas I don't recall anyone asking for heat. I suspect we got heat purely because it was the simplest thing that could be most easily implemented using the existing system, and given that it's the only significant additional mechanic (as opposed to content) that CCP have added to the game in years I expect they are loath to ditch it despite the fact that it is clearly destabalising what was previously balanced while adding very little.
So to make Minmatar ships more effective, but hopefully not over powered this is what I'd do:
1. Scrap heat. Maybe reintroduce a better thought out version of it (or something else) later, but this 50% MWD boost and 30% tackle range bonus is daft.
2. Buff arty _very slightly_. Perhaps help it regain some of its original distinctiveness by increasing the alpha and reducing the effect of the small magazine size by increasing damage but decreasing rate of fire by the same amount.
3. Reverse Minmatar interceptor roles, the Minmatar not having a really good interceptor sucks and right now we've got two crap ones. Make the Claw the tackling inty, distinctive from all other tackling inties because it only has 2 mid slots, give it the tackling bonus instead of damage bonus and a decent lock range. Give the Stiletto its falloff bonus back.
4. Reverse Typhoon shield and armour values, increase Tempest's agility.
As you can see it's not really that much. I think it's pretty clear that prior to the introduction of heat everything was quite well balanced, that being the case it was blatantly obvious that adding something so radical as heat with buffs as extreme as 50% was going to mess things up in a way that can't really be remedied by the kind of endless module tweaking we're currently being subjected to.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.19 02:35:00 -
[495]
I would say go to 0.0 and fly around a bit if you really believe that but...
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Lalita Prestoc
Maelstrom Crew
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Posted - 2008.03.19 03:12:00 -
[496]
Edited by: Lalita Prestoc on 19/03/2008 03:12:30
I dunno about the Vargur, it certainly offers nothing to me with regards to time to do a mission, but if I didn't have a second account that can do my salvage while i'm in another mission then i'm guessing the salvaging ability makes it worth it.
If it had optimal bonus and could fit arty i'd probably upgrade from my arty maelstrom. Generally I shoot and kill at 40-80km and the AC Vargur only offers more damage (with practically same tank) at sub 30km.
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EinaruS
The Illuminati.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.19 05:45:00 -
[497]
Vagabond
it's not fast enough, it should have a built in webber that works with the disruptor and the guns should have more range, tracking and damage.
please change this before i log in tomorrow, thanks.
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A finger...especially the middle one, is worth more than any amount of isk |
XFreedomX
Republic University
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Posted - 2008.03.19 06:11:00 -
[498]
I don't see Minmatarr ships as needing a boost. Overall, Minmatarr ship requires more skill to pilot and I am not talking SP. Also the capless weapons are a big plus where most people do not take advantage of in their fitting for 1 vs 1.
In roaming gangs, Rapier/Huggin/vaga are the most popular/feared ships. Overall, only the BS/BC class needs much to be desired. This is due to the obvious fact that the primary role of BS/BC are to slug it out toe to toe its the aura of Battleships. Atlast this is a role for which the minmatar ships does not excell at.
Should this weakness be addressed or should we live with the bad with the good? Personally I would like thing just the way it is (I am a dedicated Minmatar pilot). Why? Well, I like the fact that its hard to fly. Makes us special. It is not as hopless as it seems, you just have to properly fit your ships.
Lets take a short range Megathron vs a Tempest One vs One. On paper you'd say hands down Mega will win unless you hit the sweet spot in the range. But fit 2xNeut and Cap Injector and now the Tempest have a good chance.
If you chose to fly Minmatar you should accept the challenge and leave the whinning to Amarrians.
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Tassill
GREY COUNCIL
Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.19 06:42:00 -
[499]
/Signed
Minmatar needs some love
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Veryez
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Posted - 2008.03.19 07:52:00 -
[500]
Originally by: Goumindong
Edited by: Goumindong on 19/03/2008 02:04:30
Vargur tanks as good as a CNR that has a propulsion mod on it. Slightly better actually since it has partial t2 resists. I doubt is does as much damage though, but hey you can't have everything[and the CNR is much better than most faction ships comparatively to their t1 version]. AC's will have lower 0 transversal DPS than Artillery over about 25km, [going by K's numbers in this thread], but that might not be the case when you consider the tracking differences.
edit: Should still get more P.G. but really.
I have never seen a CNR with a propulsion mod on it. Absolutely not needed. So yes, the Vargur tanks better than a poorly setup ship, valuable input there  . And you seem to neglect the fact that a CNR has almost 50% more shields.....
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Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.03.19 08:41:00 -
[501]
Base pg of 9,160 (+ 1,260) would allow the Vargur to fit 4x1200mm Artillery with only two PDU IIs, which are useful for the shield tank and cap stability as well (resulting in a cap stable perma-running X-L boosted shield tank). Can still fit two Gyro IIs (this currently fits if you replace one Gyro II with one RCU II). This still does not allow 4x dual 425mm + 3x heavy neut, while e.g. the Paladin can fit 4x MPL II + 3x heavy neut with its base pg (and the Paladin should have more pg, relatively speaking).
It would need another 1,600 pg (roughly) to make 1400mms fit with that tank, or "just" 1,200 pg if you accept an LSB II tank with named AB, or 850 pg if you can live without a propulsion mod with 1400mms.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
Night's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.03.19 08:59:00 -
[502]
Originally by: Goumindong
Pilot error is not a reason to modify balance.
Failure of other pilot to accept his death and not do the right thing doesn't work as the basis of a balance argument, sorry.
Unless you specifically consider balance should be argued with 'All L5' skills but without Thermodynamics I - here's something for you: for the kiter, unless you are >50% faster, avoiding getting screwed up by clever Heat use requires the skill Clairvoyancy I, as it is the requirement for using Heat defensively. Which is the reason I said all the double web setups will massacre the (web+TD) Tempest, for instance.
You see, it cycles after the end of current cycle (btw, it's a awesome mechanic, it SO benefits the more 'traditional' (i.e. not nano) ship fitting, since it's no longer slower=no catch, faster=catch). It also makes range/speed considerations more iffy and pilot skill dependent - but it quite certainly provides the advantage to the slower attacker rather then the defender.
(Also, pilot error is no reason to modify balance is wrong. If setup X only works on a few ships as long as the pilot has Counterstrike Reflexes V, Future Prediction V, Advanced Multitasking V and works only if you pilot it perfectly from beggining to finish, then setup X is sub-par.
Ships which require superhuman/paranormal skills to work versus their counterparts suck.)
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint |
Goumindong
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.19 10:28:00 -
[503]
Originally by: Veryez
I have never seen a CNR with a propulsion mod on it. Absolutely not needed. So yes, the Vargur tanks better than a poorly setup ship, valuable input there . And you seem to neglect the fact that a CNR has almost 50% more shields.....
So long as you aren't volleyed through your entire shields, the amount of shields the ship has is irrelevant. You are going to be perma-tanking the mission, you are not going to be buffer tanking the mission.
And i was wrong, the Vargur with a propulsion mod tanks as well as a CNR without a propulsion mod. For some reason i thought the CNR gained a 7th med. It does not, this means the boost bonus, which the CNR does not get is explicitly better than any extra med slot gained from not fitting a propulsion mod. [first stacked t2 boost amp=37.5%, second stacked is lower]
Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Base pg of 9,160 (+ 1,260) would allow the Vargur to fit 4x1200mm Artillery with only two PDU IIs, which are useful for the shield tank and cap stability as well (resulting in a cap stable perma-running X-L boosted shield tank). Can still fit two Gyro IIs (this currently fits if you replace one Gyro II with one RCU II). This still does not allow 4x dual 425mm + 3x heavy neut, while e.g. the Paladin can fit 4x MPL II + 3x heavy neut with its base pg (and the Paladin should have more pg, relatively speaking).
It would need another 1,600 pg (roughly) to make 1400mms fit with that tank, or "just" 1,200 pg if you accept an LSB II tank with named AB, or 850 pg if you can live without a propulsion mod with 1400mms.
It should be able to fit 1200s without a powergrid mod, who cares if its fitting 4x800 II's and 3 neuts? The ship has an active tanking bonus, not many meds required to get a strong passive shield tank and needs at the very least, one med slot ECCM module in order to not be a sitting duck to a blackbrid and any ship with a web\\ Originally by: Cpt Branko
Failure of other pilot to accept his death and not do the right thing doesn't work as the basis of a balance argument, sorry.
It doesn't require that the other pilot give up. It just means that winning isn't cut and dry. Should the tempest win cut and dry?
Dual webbing ships are a problem for the tempest, but not nearly as much as it would seem, remember you are ignoring that you can also set the tempest like so:
[Tempest, New Setup 1 copy 1]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Gyrostabilizer II
100MN MicroWarpdrive II
Warp Disruptor II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Balmer Series Targeting Inhibitor I, Optimal Range Disruption
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Juggernaut Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Juggernaut Torpedo
Trimark Armor Pump I
Trimark Armor Pump I
Trimark Armor Pump I
Ogre II x2
Hammerhead II x2
Hobgoblin II x1
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
Night's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.03.19 10:56:00 -
[504]
Originally by: Goumindong
It doesn't require that the other pilot give up. It just means that winning isn't cut and dry. Should the tempest win cut and dry?
No, which is the reason why a agility (or mass, or mixed) boost for the Tempest is probably the best fix. It makes the Tempest capable of moving around in a group fight (which is something I feel Minmatar ships should be/typically are noticeably better at then other races within the same shipclass, battlefield mobility), and capable of executing the tactics it is supposed to employ (attempt at kiting to mitigate as much damage as possible) better.
It doesn't make it instawin, it just boosts its capabilities in executing the tactic it is supposed to be executing in the first place.
Besides, I can quite remember you proposing it as well, so I hope you can agree with your suggestion.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint |
Goumindong
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.19 11:29:00 -
[505]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Goumindong
It doesn't require that the other pilot give up. It just means that winning isn't cut and dry. Should the tempest win cut and dry?
No, which is the reason why a agility (or mass, or mixed) boost for the Tempest is probably the best fix. It makes the Tempest capable of moving around in a group fight (which is something I feel Minmatar ships should be/typically are noticeably better at then other races within the same shipclass, battlefield mobility), and capable of executing the tactics it is supposed to employ (attempt at kiting to mitigate as much damage as possible) better.
It doesn't make it instawin, it just boosts its capabilities in executing the tactic it is supposed to be executing in the first place.
Besides, I can quite remember you proposing it as well, so I hope you can agree with your suggestion.
I can. I am just playing the devils advocate because I am not sure what changes ought to be made and whether they ought to be. An agility boost for the tempest wont overpower it unless you make it very very agile[which has been suggested, a few have suggested it be as agile as battlecruisers(around 20% i believe)], and nor would another 25 cubes of bandwidth with another 225 cubes of dronebay[at least, likely]. I am just not sure such a change is prudent.
The reason for this, is, mainly that the tempest isn't supposed to be a gank/tank battleship. And if it becomes a competent gank/tank battleship[which it could be with the right components due to damage type advantages], and still maintains the other advantages in versatility and defense that it has, it could become very imbalanced. As well, since it isn't supposed to be a gank/tank battleship, and since there already is a very competent Minmtar armor tanked gank/tank battleship, and since there needs to be a role for the Blaster ships against AC ships, it could obsolete other ships in the role they ought to be doing.
Ergo, the reason the 7 turret tempest is bad, it would be like a megathron with easier fitting, utility med slots, and more range[so long as it wasn't shooting at a shield tanker(which, in my ideal shouldn't be as much as an issue, because i like the idea of strong med slot ewar on ships not specifically boosted for it)]
But then again, the move from tempest agility[15.3 align] to Phoon agility[14.9 align] is only a ~2.6% change.[And since the tempest has a higher mass, the Phoon is only ~1.3% more agile with its mwd on]. The majority of the phoons agility increase over the tempest is the fact that its 8.8% faster, in the same way the tempest is more agile than the Megathron because its 12.5% faster.
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haq aan
Omega Enterprises
Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2008.03.19 13:58:00 -
[506]
to Neutrino Sunset
Nice read m8. A good objective and overall look into Minnie problems after lots of changes into game mechanics.
PS: I am quite depressed about the idea of ' Minmatar is not in the todo list ' of CCP developer team.
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Vanessa Vale
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.03.19 16:53:00 -
[507]
Originally by: Neutrino Sunset
To name a few of the ships this tactic used to work well for: Rifter, Stiletto, Stabber, Ruppy, Hurricane, Tempest.
You forgot of course of the vagabond and the sleipnir. While they can still put dps, they have been pushed out making the ships easier to track and severely reducing their dps.
It also makes it hard to stay out of web range vs other fast ships and put significant dps on them. Even harder if you want to mantain your point.
And this is not even taking into account the td.
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Vanessa Vale
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.03.19 17:11:00 -
[508]
Originally by: XFreedomX
I don't see Minmatarr ships as needing a boost. Overall, Minmatarr ship requires more skill to pilot and I am not talking SP.
Telling people who have been flying minmatar ships for quite a long time, who illustrate how general game mechanics affect the ships in the game as opposed to special anecdotical cases or EFTing, that they don't have enough skill to notice that the ships need some tweaking?
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Lalita Prestoc
Maelstrom Crew
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Posted - 2008.03.19 17:51:00 -
[509]
Originally by: Goumindong
Dual webbing ships are a problem for the tempest, but not nearly as much as it would seem, remember you are ignoring that you can also set the tempest like so:
[Tempest, New Setup 1 copy 1]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Gyrostabilizer II
100MN MicroWarpdrive II
Warp Disruptor II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Balmer Series Targeting Inhibitor I, Optimal Range Disruption
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Juggernaut Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Juggernaut Torpedo
Trimark Armor Pump I
Trimark Armor Pump I
Trimark Armor Pump I
Ogre II x2
Hammerhead II x2
Hobgoblin II x1
Whats that meant to kill except smaller ships?
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Angelic Eviaran
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.03.19 17:54:00 -
[510]
Edited by: Angelic Eviaran on 19/03/2008 17:54:29
Originally by: Vanessa Vale
Telling people who have been flying minmatar ships for quite a long time, who illustrate how general game mechanics affect the ships in the game as opposed to special anecdotical cases or EFTing, that they don't have enough skill to notice that the ships need some tweaking?
You think tempest needs tweaking?ĻOk then geddon needs more cpu, abaddon more cap, absolution a 4th mid, sentinel more cap, curse more cap, pilgrim more range. Those also need a tweak and alot more then the tempest. These minmatar whines are very uncalled for wich goumindong perfectly illustrates but everyone ignores.
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