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OK, what about Minmatar now?

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Author	Topic
Vanessa Vale Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.19 18:11:00 - [511] Originally by: Angelic Eviaran You think tempest needs tweaking?¦Ok then geddon needs more cpu, abaddon more cap, absolution a 4th mid, sentinel more cap, curse more cap, pilgrim more range. Those also need a tweak and alot more then the tempest. These minmatar whines are very uncalled for wich goumindong perfectly illustrates but everyone ignores. Yes, yes we do. And this is not a thread to talk about what amarr needs. Thread's title says "OK, what about Minmatar now?" and that is fairly explicit. If you consider that amarr ships need more boosts feel free to followup on the "OK, what about the amarr now" that sank like stone iirc. ... what the hell is with these people.
Sionide THE FINAL STAND	Posted - 2008.03.19 18:18:00 - [512] Angelic stop f-ing double posting into two different threads, and both off topic and ********. If you believe that something is an issue, start your own thread, troll. Anyways, Goumin your setup now fails to any of the previous posts you made about the pest with speed and agility. Check the info on the side effects of those rigs, as well as having 2 1600mm plates. And congradulations, you now have as much tank as the mega you are fighting, less dps, but unfortunately for you the mega has a dual LARII + cap boosters = you will lose bleeding to death.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.19 20:06:00 - [513] Originally by: Lalita Prestoc Whats that meant to kill except smaller ships? If you can't imagine what a dual web, tracking disrupting tempest can kill, then i don't know what to say. You are aware that the standard megathron fit is basically that as well with different guns and less webs. And if you had been paying attention to previous discussions you would know that the time to kill numbers for the tempest is very similar to that of the megathron, not quite as high, but if you cant, with 2 webs and a TD, turn that around then you have some problems.
Angelic Eviaran University of Caille	Posted - 2008.03.19 20:10:00 - [514] Originally by: Sionide Angelic stop f-ing double posting into two different threads, and both off topic and ********. If you believe that something is an issue, start your own thread, troll. That wasnt a nice thing to say.
Cpt Branko Surge. Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.03.19 21:33:00 - [515] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 19/03/2008 21:33:06 Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Lalita Prestoc Whats that meant to kill except smaller ships? If you can't imagine what a dual web, tracking disrupting tempest can kill, then i don't know what to say. You are aware that the standard megathron fit is basically that as well with different guns and less webs. And if you had been paying attention to previous discussions you would know that the time to kill numbers for the tempest is very similar to that of the megathron, not quite as high, but if you cant, with 2 webs and a TD, turn that around then you have some problems. You do realise how quickly a 100MN MWD II caps you out with perfect capskills? Most battleships equipped with a neut or two or MWD + injector will be able to get away from said tempest, unless it enters webrange. That setup will, for instance, never ever kill a neut domi/tempest with neuts/anything with neuts. It won't even have the power to run a distruptor after half a minute. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint
Goumindong	Posted - 2008.03.19 22:06:00 - [516] Originally by: Cpt Branko You do realise how quickly a 100MN MWD II caps you out with perfect capskills? Most battleships equipped with a neut or two or MWD + injector will be able to get away from said tempest, unless it enters webrange. That setup will, for instance, never ever kill a neut domi/tempest with neuts/anything with neuts. It won't even have the power to run a distruptor after half a minute. protip; turn the mwd off after achieving your intended range. With 2 webs you can fairly easily hold a 8-9km distance over a megathron or even a dual web domi or hyperion[Which will mwd at 10km/s, so you could sit still and it would still take them 100 seconds of full burn to move 1km closer to you. If they aren't dual webbing then you don't have to run your mwd much at all. with a heavy neut, disruptor, 2 webs, and the Td running you cap out in about 4 minutes. If you are fighting something with a bunch of heavy neuts then it is doing much much less dps than you, and it MIGHT be able to run depending on how well it cycles its neuts. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
AstroPhobic STK Scientific Black-Out	Posted - 2008.03.19 22:37:00 - [517] Did you run megathron's DPS versus that tempest plate tank, and the tempest dps against a megathron tank at "8-9"km? Yeah, no, didn't think so.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.19 23:07:00 - [518] Edited by: Goumindong on 19/03/2008 23:15:09 Originally by: AstroPhobic Did you run megathron's DPS versus that tempest plate tank, and the tempest dps against a megathron tank at "8-9"km? Yeah, no, didn't think so. the mega will be tracking disrupted. the tempest will have 115k EHP verus the megas damage types the mega will have 120.32k EHP versus the tempests damage type.[Before the recent resist changes which explicitly benefit the tempest] The mega will be doing 812 DPS[with null, 644 DPS with CN Antimatter L]. The Tempeset will be doing 846 DPS. In short, at about 8-9km its even with a slight edge to the tempest, and above that the Tempest wins, which shouldn't be too hard to hold when you are faster and have two webs. As well, the mega will likely have to change ammo which gives you the upper hand
Ath Amon Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.03.19 23:21:00 - [519] Quote: [Tempest, New Setup 1 copy 1] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II Gyrostabilizer II 100MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Disruptor II Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Balmer Series Targeting Inhibitor I, Optimal Range Disruption 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Juggernaut Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Juggernaut Torpedo Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Ogre II x2 Hammerhead II x2 Hobgoblin II x1 here come the megapest 15km range, dual web mwd and no booster... clearly not a ship designed to kite... and how it compares vs a mega? it reach over 1k dps? nope it barely break 800dps with emp rainbow resists a mega or hype with such passive setup how much will do? mmm over 1k hype with 1 gyro? over 1.1k mega with 2 gyros? and they will both tank better, higher base armor hps = higer end hps, expecially if you consider trimark outgunned, outtanked, maeuver basically like a mega, and have to fight in 15km... in 1vs 1 you can call it suicide pest :P now this kind of setup is more usual in gangs (even if i prefer phoon) but is still the poor's man mega as the gall ship will do what this pest do just better. so whats the point of the current pest? all thes EFT fights to just say that is a very poor mega? (pssst i knew that ) Originally by: Diana Merris Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.19 23:26:00 - [520] Hey liar, numbers are the the post above yours with the real DPS numbers that each ship will be doing and their tank. Keep in mind, the numbers make that tempest look a lot worse than it really is because they don't tell you much much DPS advantage is built up as the ships close and they don't tell you much much DPS is lost due to changing ammo, and they don't tell you the real EHP values with the newly adjusted tanks which will benefit the tempest against shields and armor.

Ath Amon Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.03.19 23:52:00 - [521] Edited by: Ath Amon on 19/03/2008 23:53:22 i got EFT just for you! now i'm noob with it so dont know if you can copy paste, anyway is 7 neuts, low as the pest but with 2 mag, mid are the ones you listed just with medium booster (enought to fire) and named mwd note that i actually eneded up with bit cpu spare so with implants you should be able to upgrade to t2 mwd. if you are in mid gang remove the scrambler and more cpu for other stuff... you can also downgrade to ion and add something in 8th slot eventually.. anyway... my results where: effective HP 124.203 dps 1148 your pest had what? 860? lol Originally by: Diana Merris Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.19 23:56:00 - [522] Range matters. The 1148 DPS that the megathron does is 660/810 at 8km when tracking disrupted. The Pest had 920 or so raw, but its still doing 840 at 8km.
Ath Amon Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.03.20 00:08:00 - [523] Edited by: Ath Amon on 20/03/2008 00:12:38 8km you are still doing 850dps more or less... and with this kind of close range ship anyway you are really not going to kite that much, they are also more oriented to gangs imo, where you look for good tank/dps also emp have rainbow resists so not that sure it will be more effective, even if recent armor/shield resists change should make it more effective, still for BS is difficult to pick a res as it vary too much on setup ah mega can also get a bit better if you fit 3 1600mm and 1 eanm, little bit more effective armor and enought space to fit mwd II whitout implants Originally by: Diana Merris Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.20 00:58:00 - [524] Edited by: Goumindong on 20/03/2008 01:03:33 Edited by: Goumindong on 20/03/2008 01:01:33 Not when tracking disrupted you disingenuous liar I just ******* gave you the numbers. And you wont check them. And i know you won't check them because EFT wont give you the right numbers. And you don't know why this is and I do.[Hint, hit quality formula and tracking disruptors] The pest fits the same was as the mega fits, with a CPU implant. A mega with mwd, web, scram, injector, 7 neutrons, 2 plates, eanm, eanm, dc, mfs, mfs is also a 3% cpu implant short of fitting. You can also tri-plate the pest if you really want to, just like you can tri-plate the Mega, but typically people go for the agility and speed over the <1% EHP increase.
Ath Amon Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.03.20 01:02:00 - [525] Originally by: Goumindong Not when tracking disrupted you disingenuous liar sure this is the general graph but are not going to fight everytime under TD, and if someone TD you it works both for the pest and mega... on top of that you have not even the cpu to fit that tracking disruptor... look at the red circle but i suppose my EFT is a liar too... or someone else play with EFT and throw in numbers whitout being accurate... so honestly between these 2 ships... what you will prefer to fly generally? Originally by: Diana Merris Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.20 01:05:00 - [526] Originally by: Ath Amon Originally by: Goumindong Not when tracking disrupted you disingenuous liar sure this is the general graph but are not going to fight everytime under TD, and if someone TD you it works both for the pest and mega... on top of that you have not even the cpu to fit that tracking disruptor... look at the red circle but i suppose my EFT is a liar too... or someone else play with EFT and throw in numbers whitout being accurate... so honestly between these 2 ships... what you will prefer to fly generally? When the tempest has the TD it freaking matters if you are saying that the Megathron is going to kill the tempest! The tempest fits in the same way that the megathron fits. They both make exactly the same trade off if they dont want to fit an implant[ANP instead of EANM]
Ath Amon Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.03.20 01:13:00 - [527] Edited by: Ath Amon on 20/03/2008 01:15:14 Edited by: Ath Amon on 20/03/2008 01:13:57 as said where is the fitting advantage of the pest you where advocating as one of the main strenghts of the pest over the mega? yep TD will lower bit range but you are always going to fight very close range, also with implants prob i can fit a mid nos on the mega, maybe even downgrading MWD, that will give another nice advantage to the gal ship. still i dont see all this pest superiority, you are tailoring a pest to fight a certain mega and it result in a ship subpar to it that will perform pretty badly vs lot of other ships as a domi for example and adding, as was said many time eve is no more that solo, your mega will be pretty good in a gang enviroment, the pest will be pretty mew Originally by: Diana Merris Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
Wardeneo BLL Wise Guys Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2008.03.20 01:19:00 - [528] this thread is still going ^^ /me sighs If brute force doesn't work..... your not using enough :)
Lalita Prestoc Maelstrom Crew	Posted - 2008.03.20 01:36:00 - [529] It was a simple question Goum. I ask because its basically one of the Tempest fits I change between... cos i'm not happy with any of them. My version has 2 TD's and 1 web so was wondering why you think 2 web is better. I know I won't replace it once it dies, its role in AC format is practically none-existant.
AstroPhobic STK Scientific Black-Out	Posted - 2008.03.20 01:45:00 - [530] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 19/03/2008 23:22:35 Edited by: Goumindong on 19/03/2008 23:15:09 Originally by: AstroPhobic Did you run megathron's DPS versus that tempest plate tank, and the tempest dps against a megathron tank at "8-9"km? Yeah, no, didn't think so. the mega will be tracking disrupted. the tempest will have 115k EHP verus the megas damage types the mega will have 120.32k EHP versus the tempests damage type.[Before the recent resist changes which explicitly benefit the tempest] The mega will be doing 812 DPS[with null, 644 DPS with CN Antimatter L]. The Tempeset will be doing 846 DPS. Sounds like you have a failing setup for a megathron. Tracking disrupted at 8-9km for optimal does very little anyway. Care to share your mega setup that is clearly biased?

Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.20 02:10:00 - [531] Edited by: Goumindong on 20/03/2008 02:12:04 Originally by: Lalita Prestoc It was a simple question Goum. I ask because its basically one of the Tempest fits I change between... cos i'm not happy with any of them. My version has 2 TD's and 1 web so was wondering why you think 2 web is better. I know I won't replace it once it dies, its role in AC format is practically none-existant. CPU was reason number 1 why i was running two webs[i think you can get it on with a 1% cpu plant, but i didn't check], the other reason is that its a lot easier to dictate range with a web than it is with an MWD. With a 1 web setup you need to run the MWD to keep things from getting close, and while the second TD means that a blaster ship has to get really really close, it also means that he is going to be closing about 10 times faster than he would have otherwise. And since that 3 slot config[2 webs and a td, or 2 TD's and a web] means no injector you aren't going to be able to MWD as long as something with an injector. Which means they are going to overcome that two TD's faster. Two TD's would also be very potent, especially against Amarr where you could put them into scorch range all the way down to 3-5km, letting you get really close without taking much more than EM damage[which you have a great tank against], but i think in most situations the second web will be better[as you can get really close to a laser ship and orbit if you really wanted to, and even a bit of transversal at 500m will make lasers miss a significant amount of shots] Originally by: AstroPhobic Sounds like you have a failing setup for a megathron. Tracking disrupted at 8-9km for optimal does very little anyway. Care to share your mega setup that is clearly biased? Optimal range tracking disruption now reduces falloff as well as optimal, making it very very potent against blaster ships. Again, if you think the standard plated gank setup for a megathron is "fail" then you have problems that can't be addressed in this thread.
AstroPhobic STK Scientific Black-Out	Posted - 2008.03.20 02:26:00 - [532] Edited by: AstroPhobic on 20/03/2008 02:30:07 [Megathron, BlasterMega] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Damage Control II N-Type Reactive Membrane I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Faint Warp Prohibitor I Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L [empty high slot] Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Ogre II x5 Does 1250 DPS with maxed skills and CN AM. With Null you hit 11km optimal, 16km falloff at 1062 DPS. 96K EHP. Seems like you're the one that doesn't understand blaster mega setups.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.20 03:07:00 - [533] Edited by: Goumindong on 20/03/2008 03:07:51 You realise that the mega setup i used is exactly that one, except it doesn't suck ass? A reactive membrane over an EANM? The tempest in question has 15% more EHP than you do, more EHP increase than the increase in DPS that you gain from fitting the third mfs. You don't have 11+16km with null, because you are being tracking disrupted, you have 5.5+8. Which means at 9.5km you will be doing 77% of your listed DPS. The mega you put up there is actually worse against the majority of targets and against the tempest in question than the one i used.
AstroPhobic STK Scientific Black-Out	Posted - 2008.03.20 03:14:00 - [534] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 20/03/2008 03:07:51 You realise that the mega setup i used is exactly that one, except it doesn't suck ass? A reactive membrane over an EANM? The tempest in question has 15% more EHP than you do, more EHP increase than the increase in DPS that you gain from fitting the third mfs. You don't have 11+16km with null, because you are being tracking disrupted, you have 5.5+8. Which means at 9.5km you will be doing 77% of your listed DPS. The mega you put up there is actually worse against the majority of targets and against the tempest in question than the one i used. Late night EFT ftl. But... you're a complete ass about it, so instead of "Ok I was wrong", you get flipped the bird. Anyway...
Lalita Prestoc Maelstrom Crew	Posted - 2008.03.20 03:57:00 - [535] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 20/03/2008 02:12:04 Originally by: Lalita Prestoc It was a simple question Goum. I ask because its basically one of the Tempest fits I change between... cos i'm not happy with any of them. My version has 2 TD's and 1 web so was wondering why you think 2 web is better. I know I won't replace it once it dies, its role in AC format is practically none-existant. CPU was reason number 1 why i was running two webs[i think you can get it on with a 1% cpu plant, but i didn't check], the other reason is that its a lot easier to dictate range with a web than it is with an MWD. With a 1 web setup you need to run the MWD to keep things from getting close, and while the second TD means that a blaster ship has to get really really close, it also means that he is going to be closing about 10 times faster than he would have otherwise. And since that 3 slot config[2 webs and a td, or 2 TD's and a web] means no injector you aren't going to be able to MWD as long as something with an injector. Which means they are going to overcome that two TD's faster. Two TD's would also be very potent, especially against Amarr where you could put them into scorch range all the way down to 3-5km, letting you get really close without taking much more than EM damage[which you have a great tank against], but i think in most situations the second web will be better[as you can get really close to a laser ship and orbit if you really wanted to, and even a bit of transversal at 500m will make lasers miss a significant amount of shots] Theres me forgetting i'm in my Maelstrom clone with cpu hardwiring like normal, anyway i'm finding it hard to explain my feelings on the Tempest and its fittings/performance. Everyone points out AC's don't use cap, the Tempest saves typically 20-30 cap/s compared to other BS (except Abaddon). Its DPS IS low but if the target isn't shield tankers or armour tanked with a exp hard its damage type helps out. The problem is on a ship that is expected to MWD even if it fits a full passive tank it still needs a cap booster if it wants to do more than just charge up and web the target and slug it out. That no cap use of turrets is only really an advantage if you can either not need a cap booster or if you fit a dual rep tank so don't have to cycle the 2nd rep like a Mega/Hyper ect have to. You still then have 2 misc highs, if you put heavy neuts there its -15 cap/s each which is sort of like having turrets using cap, but I like them for the counter-nano ability and they help more than a couple of missile launchers to break active tanks, which your low DPS has a hard time doing. I guess what i'm trying to say is the no cap use of AC's is an advantage but for the Tempest its not one it can realisticly use as so many other modules it needs to succeed use cap so you need a cap booster anyway. You can't improve the low damage (for the no cap use) without harsh compramises in tank and while a TD will help vs turret ships in a 1v1 fight its a very specific area to be competative in hence why I don't see it truely having a close range role. I know it sounds a bit like a "I want a setup that works vs everything" but currently the area it is competative is too focused. p.s. probably won't make sence since its 4am
Sionide THE FINAL STAND	Posted - 2008.03.20 06:36:00 - [536] Originally by: Lalita Prestoc while a TD will help vs turret ships in a 1v1 fight its a very specific area to be competative in hence why I don't see it truely having a close range role. Yep, basically true, no matter what Goumindung says, he doesn't fly a pest, or close range BS ship (like mega). Nor do any (I am sure some) BS pvp videos have a TD in the midslot...that must mean something. But for Goumindung the world is wrong and he is right. The 5th midslot though "versitile" really don't service as well as that slot being put to the low, but that is something we have to live with. So really our choices are: 1) jammer (not really since the nerf long ago) 2) another webber (maybe) 3) target painter (hmm...not for acs) 4) another cap booster (not a bad choice) 5) TD (ok since the other choices aren't that great either, and it might come in handy in some situations) 6) sensor booster (not bad choice, first to lock has first shot = dps) It's really between 2, 4, 5, 6. I am leaning towards 4 or 6 personally, since they serve a consistent positive effect in every fight.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.20 06:55:00 - [537] Edited by: Goumindong on 20/03/2008 07:01:11 Before the last patch, TD's in short range were only good at killing laser ships and not many ships have the spare cpu or med slots with which to fit them. This makes it unlikely you would see them in your typical, mega/hyperion video, though with the changes they are likely to be more prevalent. Edit: if you don't want a versatile ship you are flying the wrong ship. There are ships that do what you want the tempest to do[Phoon for fast ganker, hyperion for repping solo BS, Megathron for all around standard gank bs, Maelstrom for slow gank/tanker]. The problem then, is not that the ship is versatile, but that you are choosing to fly the wrong ship. In the same way you should not complain that the Armageddon or Abaddon are not good solo ships you should not complain that the tempest is versatile instead of being a ganker. Minmatar gankers exist in the Phoon and maelstrom, if you don't fly them and fly the tempest instead then that is a problem with you and not a problem with the tempest.
Sionide THE FINAL STAND	Posted - 2008.03.20 07:51:00 - [538] Well most of the phoon gankers are nano phoons. There are some solo pirates that are non-naned-phoons, but tbh haven't seen many solo gankers in them (just from my own personal experience). And it's very doubtful that you have seen many mael gankers either. Either they are snipers and are just sitting 150km+ from the gate guns or...they are taking a big chance, since they are shield tankers. Hence, though they have potentially amazing dps, they have to sacrifice their precious 6 mid slot setup for any kind of tackling gear, which cripples their tank. Any close range dps ship needs mwd, web, and scram; which is why it is very doubtful you have seen these mystery 3 slot tanked solo maels. And no, it is not asking too much for a gun + armor ship that has a double damage bonus to be considered a gank ship...it really isn't. Anyways, not sure why these long discussions on fittings and senarios and this and that, you even posted a while back that the pest could use some positive changes, which is what the whole thread was originally about.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.20 08:18:00 - [539] Edited by: Goumindong on 20/03/2008 08:21:24 Originally by: Sionide Well most of the phoon gankers are nano phoons. There are some solo pirates that are non-naned-phoons, but tbh haven't seen many solo gankers in them (just from my own personal experience). And it's very doubtful that you have seen many mael gankers either. Either they are snipers and are just sitting 150km+ from the gate guns or...they are taking a big chance, since they are shield tankers. Hence, though they have potentially amazing dps, they have to sacrifice their precious 6 mid slot setup for any kind of tackling gear, which cripples their tank. Any close range dps ship needs mwd, web, and scram; which is why it is very doubtful you have seen these mystery 3 slot tanked solo maels. And no, it is not asking too much for a gun + armor ship that has a double damage bonus to be considered a gank ship...it really isn't. Anyways, not sure why these long discussions on fittings and senarios and this and that, you even posted a while back that the pest could use some positive changes, which is what the whole thread was originally about. I would be quite surprised to see a bunch of nano-phoons about, it seems like with their low range and agility that they would be killed very easily by any standard gang with tacklers. I almost never see them, in empire or anywhere else. You also are misunderstanding what "gank" means. Gank means to do DPS. And the Maelstrom excels at that in a small gang where it can be primary DPS over the entire range of the battle while still fielding an absolutely huge tank.[Kinda like a Blaster Rokh, except with more DPS and range, and less tank] Yes, it is asking too much for the versatile ship in the minmatar line-up, the one with the spare high slots and med slots to be a gank ship. Is it supposed to be a better gank ship than the typhoon or megathron? If not, then you have the current situation that you have today. The reason that I am continuing is that I am not sure it needs any changes, and that the "problems" with it aren't just delusions of people who are flying the wrong ship for their needs and/or wants. This is evidenced by the people who are saying that not only should it beat a megathron 1v1, but it should also be competitive with the megathron at the megathron's job. Its very similar to the people who refuse to see that battle-cruisers and Command ships[even field commands] are niche ships with very few limited roles outside of gang bonus production, and complain that their ships aren't agile or fast enough, or don't do enough dps. You have the solo, armor tanking gank ship in the Typhoon. You have a gang artillery ship and gang full gank AC monster in the Maelstrom. The tempest is neither of those ships, its a ship with defenses and utility, able to nullify incoming DPS and protect itself until it can make the kills it needs to win the day.
Ath Amon Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.03.20 11:43:00 - [540] actually you went up with the pest mega job you tried the first setup (kite) and finally when you saw it was getting powned by almost every bs in eve you switched to a setup very similar to a standard mega one (and is obvious that it is crappy in comparsion) the problem here is that it doesnt work with both setups so is no good the kite/speedy ecc ecc as it is no good the tank/crap gank. think we can say it lack a defined role, expecially as devs focused on specialization recently, making the "versatile" slot allocation of the ship just inefficent. instead i mostly agree about the phoon even if imo it need to loose the split weapon system (that is just bad) in favor for a close range missileboat approach. about the mael... yes it is a monster, but just a monster... in a gang its shield boost bonus is not that good... in mid large gang a good buffer is way way better than a full active/boost bonus shield tanker, in small gangs if you have logistic the big boost is not that uber too. dps also is nothing to speak about, is low as for all other minnie ships, and the fact that it is slow, cumbersome and have no faloff bonus, make it imo a poor ac ship. personally i'll fit mael only with arties, dps is lower but you dont have to move around the battelfield to "chase" enemy ships. the pest could be the minnie AC bs but for the reason said above it fail in that role, again 7 turret will make it more competitive in this role with better gankage/dps for the loss of a bit of utility and still keeping its dmg below gall ships Originally by: Diana Merris Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".

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