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View from 70+ sp player: remove all learning skills from game

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Author	Topic
Kendar Zek Gallente Interstellar Aid Society	Posted - 2008.03.11 20:50:00 - [301] Originally by: Zero Target Originally by: Kendar Zek After about 5 months of playing, I left the game. When I started, I thought I was in it for the long haul, but after months of playing and still not being able to do much more than mine and run Lv 1 missions, I moved on to another game. Over 18 months later, I was back. I've closed my account again since then for another 7 months. I could probably argue as well as the rest that the learning skills aren't worthwhile and should be removed. After all, they killed my initial enthusiasm about the game. I'm guessing CCP would rather keep people interested in the game, so that they pay to play every month instead of taking 25 months off every once in a while. I'd say they're smart enough to know that some people are going to come and go for various reasons, regardless of what they do. When I bailed on EVE the first time, I did it because the pace here was slow and my RL friends were beckoning me back to another game where I'd already put in the grind time and had viable characters ready to go. The second time, I just got bored with what I was doing. I thought I'd go play outside for a while and give up gaming for a bit. Those things aren't CCP's fault, and even though my frustration with learning skills greatly factored into my decision to leave, finishing those skills was still my first priority when I came back. Of course, you're right in that CCP should be concerned with keeping people interested in the game, and forcing everyone to train at a snail's pace, without giving them the choice of learning skills, would turn me off just as quickly. -- Owner, Venture Racing Team
Zero Target Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.11 20:50:00 - [302] Edited by: Zero Target on 11/03/2008 20:52:17 Originally by: Jaabaa Prime Why don't we level the fields for the new players to match those that the older players had: 1) Not allowed to use implants for the first 6 months 2) Not allowed to train advanced skills for 1 year 3) Set the requirement for advanced learning skills back up to level 5 in the matching basic skill How about that ? Really, if you want instant gratification then EVE ISN'T FOR YOU Take solace in the fact that when T2 Titans are rolled out, you'll be flying them in an empty universe unless CCP continues to make ships and equipment easier to attain for new players. It's happened already in the game multiple times (increased SP for new players, new bloodlines with better attributes, reduction of ship skill path from needing Vs to IVs etc.) and will keep happening, so spare us your indignation. Again, removing the learning skill grind, if done properly, can achieve this goal while also providing benefits to veteran players.
Brainless Bimbo Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.03.11 20:59:00 - [303] I had a problem with the alt OP, i think he did not actually put any real thought into his post. So today i had a look at the vid of "Magnus Bergsson's" comment, it was given as his personal opinion as a player of the game, he states he's not a game designer in fact he's a marketing geek who gained most of his experience in america who likes to play. He probally is kicking himself over that comment if this thread has been bought to his attention, at least i hope he is at least embarassed. Eve is not AI driven, it was not made to be formulaic (sp?), its freeform at the extreme in a mmo game, it needs players who understand that we the players make the game, its not about what ship you fly or weapon you use, its about how you think over and above everything. One very good thing the goons have done is prove that organised peeps with enough frigates can beat literally anything even with crap skills, its killing by overwhelming the target, bit like WW1 warfare, just keep throwing peeps at em till they cave. New players should READ THE FK'n MANUAL to be very blunt about it, they should have made them selves aware that training cybernetic and getting an implant can give a quicker return than a learning skill, they should have enough nerons in their vacant heads to understand that at least if they want to get on in game. Learning skills are pointless on rank 1 and 2 skills until you get to lvl 4, and a noob don't need em that high to kill rats in high sec where they will live for the first month or more. Its the instant gratification junkies that don't really value anything that are whining here for a variety of reason that others have given and i agree with those peeps. If they had actually RTFM they would not be moaning they would never have started. Evemon, whilst a good utility actually does more harm than good it reinforces the must do learning skills first, i've deleted it, i don't need or want a rigid plan without imagination or flexability ruling my game experience, using it for SP planning actually makes it not a game if you actually care to think about it. Until people stop giving bad advice based on what i consider incomplete knowledge of the game and its concepts these sorts of threads wil occur again and again at the slightest provacation. Oh this is my main, i only have one account, and if you high SP dudes posting with alts, basically trolls, feel offended you are welecome to hunt me down and pod me or even send me back to the clone bay, after all i know its going to happen so i'm very well prepared. ...... continues overleaf.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.11 21:04:00 - [304] Edited by: Avon on 11/03/2008 21:05:06 Originally by: Zero Target Take solace in the fact that when T2 Titans are rolled out, you'll be flying them in an empty universe unless CCP continues to make ships and equipment easier to attain for new players. It's happened already in the game multiple times (increased SP for new players, new bloodlines with better attributes, reduction of ship skill path from needing Vs to IVs etc.) and will keep happening, so spare us your indignation. Again, removing the learning skill grind, if done properly, can achieve this goal while also providing benefits to veteran players. What a load of tosh. Keeping in mind that the average player stays with Eve for 7 months (or whatever the figure was), how many of these "uber vets" do you think are going to be pimping about in T2 Titans? And if you get new players in better ships faster now, what do you do for new players in a year? In two years? Higher SP does not really make players much more powerful, just more versitile. Titans and Motherships and Carriers and Dreads may be your idea of unfair elitist toys .. but how exactly do they effect noobs in Kisogo undocking for the first time? They can't even go there. Without aspiration, what will drive players? Giving everyone a Titan and having conga contests isn't going to make for epic gameplay. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Orree Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.03.11 21:09:00 - [305] Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 10/03/2008 15:00:26 The learning skills aren't the problem. The problem is that the "old" players are telling the "new" players that they must train the learning skills before they even consider undocking. Bad advice is the issue. Completely agree. I think when your first start a character, you need to do all the quick-hitters you can and spread the training around to several key areas over the first few months. Once you get a solid, well-rounded foundation, you can look at specializing and taking your learning skills even higher. The advice that is apparently being given is completely wrong-headed. "How much easier it is to be critical than to be correct." ---Benjamin Disraeli
Failway	Posted - 2008.03.11 21:16:00 - [306] Quote: When Adv. learning skills were introduced the cheers were many and loud. Why ? Because it gave us, the player base, another option. I'm sorry, but that's just silly. People would be happy because it meant they could train more skills more quickly, not because they had the "option" to train these skills. There is no option with learning skills; you either take them or you flounder about taking twice as long to progress. While that might be less important for veterans who gain more versatility than direct strength from extra SP, it's a critical issue for new players, who start off unable to do much, can't do any of that very well, and have to "choose" between being stuck more or less like that for their first months of play training skills with no gameplay value at all, or taking months longer to break free of the mire before they can enjoy lifelong inferiority. Don't confuse desire for faster progression with a love of the mechanic that brought it about.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.03.11 21:18:00 - [307] Originally by: Orree Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 10/03/2008 15:00:26 The learning skills aren't the problem. The problem is that the "old" players are telling the "new" players that they must train the learning skills before they even consider undocking. Bad advice is the issue. Completely agree. I think when your first start a character, you need to do all the quick-hitters you can and spread the training around to several key areas over the first few months. Once you get a solid, well-rounded foundation, you can look at specializing and taking your learning skills even higher. The advice that is apparently being given is completely wrong-headed. But who is supposed to be giving this bad advice? I haven't see one person yet say that a new player OUGHT to do nothing but train learning skills. Now if you're creating an alt on a second account maybe, then sure. Do whatever the EvEmon-optimised schedule is, but I've hardly ever seen the "Finish your learnings at the expense of all other skills" advice given, and never unchallenged. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.03.11 21:20:00 - [308] Originally by: Avon Keeping in mind that the average player stays with Eve for 7 months (or whatever the figure was) You know I see this figure a lot, but I can't help wondering: mean, modal or median? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Zero Target Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.11 21:22:00 - [309] Originally by: Avon Giving everyone a Titan and having conga contests isn't going to make for epic gameplay. Did you and Hippy Dave take the same internet debate class? Assuming you didn't respond to the wrong thread by mistake (conga lines?), what we're talking about here is getting rid of the learning skills in such a way as to not penalize veteran players. If your complaint is that this will allow new players to close the skills gap on veteran BoB players like yourself, see here.
Failway	Posted - 2008.03.11 21:22:00 - [310] Quote: But who is supposed to be giving this bad advice? I haven't see one person yet say that a new player OUGHT to do nothing but train learning skills. I hear it all the time in rookie chat and rookie corp chat...it's what people told me to do, though it's not exactly what I did.

Ivan Kinsikor Amarr International Multi-Player Consortium Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.03.11 21:30:00 - [311] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Corduroy Rab Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Corduroy Rab stuff A far better solution would be the introduction of more charisma-based skills. I would go for that solution as well. As it stands charisma is only really useful for trade and social skill branches, neither of which i use much at all. Yeah it's unbalancing in many ways to have one stat so gimped. Well, charisma is traditionally the dump stat :D Joking aside, cha could use some love. Anyhoo back on topic. When I first started playing over two years ago I hardly saw learning skills as a hindrance to my gameplay. I looked at what I had, I looked at where I was going with my character and as I started to creep up closer to 5ing up certain skills (ah the good ole noobie phase when hitting electronics and engineering 5 was cause for celebration) I'd increase my learning skills. It was no real big deal and it's not a drastically game altering issue. If you have no patience to go through pacing out and balancing your learning skill tripping then Eve is not the game for you. ITT players who want learning skills gone so they can fast track their alts into ships faster Killing is business and business is good.
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2008.03.11 21:31:00 - [312] Edited by: Black Scorpio on 11/03/2008 21:32:14 Oh cry me a river. The fact that a new player does not know how to balance learning is not a base for changing any skills at all. The fact that wannabe, or know all "older" players give them ridiculous advices isn't a ground for change either. To give you an example i have started EvE not knowing anythign about the game, at that point there were no advanced learning skills. I started training skills about the ships i wanted to fly and the modules i needed to fit. At some point i "discovered" learning skills. I started training lvl 1-3 for the combat skills i needed, i.e. i'd train for perc/willpower whenever i needed to train something related and int/memory if i switched to support skills. eventually i trained them all to lvl 4. Then the advanced skills were introduced and you had to had the first level to 5 in order to train the advanced ones. I didn't see it as so very much pressing at the time, as I continued to get skills i needed for the moment. When i would plan to have a slow week in EvE because of work or something else, i'd put a lvl 5 learning skill and then get the second learning skill that it unlocked to lvl 4. and so on.. Eventually i got all learning skills to 5. Because i chose to, and because i felt they'd benefit me in the long run. Not at one point i got bored or disgruntled with training those, because of the way i chose to learn those skills. The grind was getting all the second to lvl 5, but then again i chose to do so and take the time, the reward being i had 1 exra point in each, not that much, but why not if I had a slow week? I also did train in-between other skills. So there, that's my story. Why should anyone who starts the game be any different in taht regard? This is a game that rewards investments, both in time and a little planning. New players already have the advantage to start with a lot more SP than I did, and then get to learn lvl 2 learning skills withough having to max out the lvl 1 learning tree. so that's even easier. And don't come out here and tell me it took you SOOO much time, they're all x1 multiplier to begin with and the rest are x3. to get both to lvl 4 isn't at all that much of time. not when you mix it up here and there.. Just because some ADD kids didn't want to invest the time or got hot flashes cause they aren't automatically maxed out, the game isn't hurting. From when i started the numbers of players in game has only increased, so learning skills aren't such a deterrent, are they. And to all the new players, i'd suggest to enjoy the game, take it one step at a time and see what happens. Have fun, it's EvE. If someone tells you to pound all learning to lvl 5, tell them to basically shut up, and do as you like. Again, this is EvE when the choice between boring and fun is only yours...!
Chelone Stone Shadow Syndicate	Posted - 2008.03.11 21:33:00 - [313] 4/3 learnings are more than sufficient for a new player. They take around 2 weeks. If a new player doesn't have the patience to spend 2 weeks to vastly improve their attributes, they won't have the patience for Eve anyway.
Zero Target Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.11 21:41:00 - [314] Originally by: Malcanis But who is supposed to be giving this bad advice? I haven't see one person yet say that a new player OUGHT to do nothing but train learning skills. Yeah, that doesn't match my experience either. I almost always see people advising new players to use EVEMon to determine which learning skills to train, and to first aim for a moneymaking ship to afford all those fancy T2 skill books later, which I think is solid advice for new players. However those new players are going to go straight to training learning skills for a month or more if their goals are loftier than a T2 frigate, and wouldn't it be great if they didn't have to?
Kathryn Dougans B. S. Radioactive Sheep Farm	Posted - 2008.03.11 21:44:00 - [315] Having established that telling people to do the learning skills first is bad advice, what is good advice? This is what a friend recommended to me, I ended up doing something else, but how good was it? 1. If you don't have them, train frigate 3 and small gun 3. 2. Train the basic learning skills a couple of levels. 3. Travel around, try and figure out game mechanics, talk to people, visit low-sec (using a rookieship if necessary) 4. Train support skills a few levels. See how that affects your ship and how it performs. 5. Train cruiser 3 and medium guns. Look at the differences in performance between the cruiser and frigate, beyond tank and damage output. Think how you'd beat your cruiser with your frigate and vice versa. 6. Train advanced learning skills. Train support skills.
Failway	Posted - 2008.03.11 21:49:00 - [316] Quote: Again, this is EvE when the choice between boring and fun is only yours...! Yeah, and when fun = inferior character and boring = superior character, there's a problem.
Christari Zuborov Amarr Ore Mongers	Posted - 2008.03.11 22:09:00 - [317] Hmmm, 11 pages in. I guess this might be a bad time to bring it up, but if you trained every skill to level 5, it would take you longer than 15 years to do it. So what difference does 2 weeks really make? Understand this now - You're never going to be l337. You're never going to be a one person atom-bomb dropping badass with a wallet that says, "Bad Motherf*cker" on it. This game is meant for you to choose a particular skill path, specialize in that path, become great in that specialization, and whoop all kinds of arse - until you get ganked 10 minutes later. When you've grasped these key points, you'll have become a wise eve pod pilot.
TimGascoigne	Posted - 2008.03.11 22:15:00 - [318] I agree with this topic. However if such a change is to be implemented those of us who have acquired learning skills will have to be compensated with new skills in other areas. The problem isn't so much one of learning skills being too intensive. It's just if you want to be competitive then training them up and sitting in station for the first month is the best thing to do and that doesn't make for a very exciting trial account
Phrixus Zephyr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.11 22:18:00 - [319] Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 11/03/2008 14:00:17 Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr If we get the skillpoints we have already trained in learning, whats the difference? Learning skills are a stupid idea, they've always been a stupid idea and personally i'd rather do away with them so nobody else has to go through with it and i can have 1.8mil Sps in something more useful. So I should be made relatively worse off because some new people don't want to be treated the same as everyone else? Or are you going to compensate everyone for all the SP's they missed out on for any skills they trained before the advanced learning skills were introduced? Of course not, because you aren't interested in being fair, no matter how much you pretend otherwise. New characters start with more SP's, more ISK, and can increase their attributes faster and higher than old players could. What more do they need, the moon on a stick? I don't care about the SPs i 'would' have had. Learning skills were a mistake and i don't see why i shouldn't be fixed. So new players gets more now than what we used to. So what? If CCP knew then, what they did now, do you think we would have gotten the same starting point? I really don't care if newer players don't have to go through learning skills and i had to.
Christari Zuborov Amarr Ore Mongers	Posted - 2008.03.11 22:20:00 - [320] Originally by: TimGascoigne stuff That would entirely be that individuals fault, because I've witnessed less than 1 week old characters ganking several month old characters, in frigates... I think what most people who've left fail at is believing that 7 months, or 3 years in, they'll be han-solo-ganker.

Mashie Saldana Minmatar Hooligans Of War	Posted - 2008.03.11 22:32:00 - [321] Well I wouldn't mind if the learning skills were removed and all base attributes got increased by 10 points each. For those who has invested skill points in learning skills, just let us reassign them in whatever skills we want and everyone should hopefully be happy.
Brainless Bimbo Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.03.11 22:45:00 - [322] Originally by: TimGascoigne The problem isn't so much one of learning skills being too intensive. It's just if you want to be competitive then training them up and sitting in station for the first month is the best thing to do and that doesn't make for a very exciting trial account Then quite frankly they do not understand the game if they sit in station doing squat for a month, eve is a freeform game, if someone is not intelligent enough to learn quick ship and survival skills which are all so quick that even at starting attribute levels they only take an few hours to get to a lvl 3 and dedicate thier off line time to the learning skills why are they playing eve as they don't understand the concepts behind the game. ...... continues overleaf.
Brainless Bimbo Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.03.11 22:48:00 - [323] Originally by: Mashie Saldana Well I wouldn't mind if the learning skills were removed and all base attributes got increased by 10 points each. For those who has invested skill points in learning skills, just let us reassign them in whatever skills we want and everyone should hopefully be happy. As everyone has done them at differnt stages of thier character devolopment and thier effects differ greatly between people it gets so complex that CCP would still be trying to figure out compensation when the sun goes nova ...... continues overleaf.
Galen Salkor	Posted - 2008.03.11 23:03:00 - [324] Speaking as someone who had almost 70M SP with a character, it is too little too late. It always felt like to me the learning skills were just a quick way to get into a big ship faster as they made large amounts of ISK more readily available to newer players. Now you got everyone flying as uber a ship as they can because it is relatively quick now to meet the minimum requirements. I miss being nervous about losing a frigate or cruiser. Now its 'meh'. Oh well.
Tarron Sarek Gallente Cadien Cybernetics	Posted - 2008.03.11 23:16:00 - [325] Originally by: Avon The learning skills aren't the problem. The problem is that the "old" players are telling the "new" players that they must train the learning skills before they even consider undocking. Bad advice is the issue. Exactly this. ___________________________________ - Balance is power, guard it well - Please stop using the word 'nerf' Nothing spells 'incompetence' or 'don't take me serious' like those four letters
Lustralis	Posted - 2008.03.11 23:19:00 - [326] I started this character in 2004. Today I just got around to training up Clarity. What's the big problem again?
Tarron Sarek Gallente Cadien Cybernetics	Posted - 2008.03.11 23:26:00 - [327] The big problem is that even with Learning Skills gone, new players will still complain. EVE dumbed down - for no actual improvement. Fail. ___________________________________ - Balance is power, guard it well - Please stop using the word 'nerf' Nothing spells 'incompetence' or 'don't take me serious' like those four letters
Raznarok Invicta.	Posted - 2008.03.11 23:30:00 - [328] Originally by: Burnharder If you want to invest in faster SP acquisition, you can, if you don't want to, don't. N00bs start the game with loads more SP's than we did when we started out in 2003. This is so true. People aren't forced to train learning skills, as with everything else in the game, its optional. Hell I didn't train the skills for ages, until I knew I could defend myself and could sustain a bank roll.
Raznarok Invicta.	Posted - 2008.03.11 23:33:00 - [329] Originally by: Tarron Sarek Originally by: Avon The learning skills aren't the problem. The problem is that the "old" players are telling the "new" players that they must train the learning skills before they even consider undocking. Bad advice is the issue. Exactly this. Agree.
Dramund Amarr Atonement Arms	Posted - 2008.03.11 23:40:00 - [330] Edited by: Dramund on 11/03/2008 23:44:12 Lol, what fool tells new people to max learning skills? Here are some quick numbers: Time to break even after training Learning 4 -> 5 = ~322 days Time to break even after training Rank 1 Attribute Skills 4 -> 5 = 146.35 days of only training primary skills, 292.70 days of only training secondary skills or any proportional mix thereof. Time to break even after training Rank 3 Attribute Skills 3 -> 4 = 77.61 days of only training primary skills, 155.22 days of only training secondary skills or any proportional mix thereof. Time to break even after training Rank 3 Attribute Skills 4 -> 5 = 439.05 days of only training primary skills, 878.10 days of only training secondary skills or any proportional mix thereof. They can wait. I'm less than a month old and I figured that out myself. The numbers aren't concealed.

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