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Grendelsbane
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Posted - 2008.03.11 23:42:00 -
[331]
Edited by: Grendelsbane on 11/03/2008 23:45:17
It's not about maxing them, it's about training them at all.
Unless you don't plan to play EVE long term, failing to train the learning skills (to 4) early puts you at a permanent disadvantage, period, end of story. Time fallen behind in skill training CANNOT be made up - you can only do things (learning skills or implants) to mitigate how far you continue to fall behind. You simply cannot argue with the math.
Unfortunately, this appears to be yet another instance where CCP have painted themselves into a corner, because I see no easy and equitable solution to the problem. YOU might be fine with just simply abolishing them, but what about the noobs who just spent 2 months - now totally wasted - training them? What about those younger players that will now have to grind through ridiculously long training times for high end skills - do you screw them over, or do you screw over those who invested time and ISK in learning skills and implants to learn those skills faster by now lowering their training time?
I've seen a number of new pilots leave because they got frustrated with EVE - they (wisely) asked for advice, was told to grind out the learning skills, got ****ed off and discounted other more immediately useful advice and then ultimately gave up.
I'd rather have not started with those extra SP than deal with all this crap now, and the time spent training 100% BORING skills.
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Dramund
Amarr
Atonement Arms
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Posted - 2008.03.11 23:48:00 -
[332]
Edited by: Dramund on 11/03/2008 23:52:12
 Originally by: Grendelsbane
Edited by: Grendelsbane on 11/03/2008 23:45:17
It's not about maxing them, it's about training them at all.
No there is some huge confusion here because there are people complaining that it takes months where it really only takes less than two weeks to hit the sweet spot. I feel bad for those who maxed them immediately in a special way.
Addendum: Also I think that two week grace period is a good thing because it commits your character in an area to discourage from annoying things like S&I alts to accomodate your combat pilot because you can just start them with more attributes and ping-pong training.
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Mr Azrael
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Posted - 2008.03.12 00:10:00 -
[333]
reset the server so everyone can be equal again...
(end sarcasm)
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Jericho Solaris
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Posted - 2008.03.12 00:10:00 -
[334]
New player of about 2 months now;
It's somewhat irritating to know that I am basically only going to log in for the next few months to switch skills,and I am basically paying a monthly fee to watch a progress bar.Knowing that,it's also quite stupid to not train up the learning skills,while it's obvious they don't help the lower ranked skills much,they make quite an impact on the higher skills and if you choose a fairly specialized path early on it's not long before your moving into the higher ranked skills and thus the increased training times that Learning impacts greatly.
It's not exactly what I would label as the reason for people quitting though, as a new player my primary gripe with the game was the skill system in general as it's quite oppressive. I realize that the old timers had it harder and what not, that's an age old argument that extends far beyond the realm of MMO's and I respect that, I have played a variety myself and in quite a few would be labeled an old schooler. I also understand the principles behind the skill system and while it's awkward at first to start up in an MMO that you can't simply put a great deal of time into early on to advance your character to a useful level for participating with other's, it makes sense in the long term at least in terms of ship population and the battles and what not and making sure there isn't 90 titans or whatever.
At the same time It seems like many corps want 4m+ SP to be interested in players , there are empire based corps that accept anyone,and there are corps that accept lower SP characters focused on industry but if neither of those aspects of the game are interesting to a new player they can basically expect to not really play the game for many months and that's an unfortunate aspect of the game. Most veteran MMO players are smart enough to avoid guild/corps that have lax recruitment standards as it generally ends up being a start up corp with a weak future or a a corp filled with vagrants who come and go as quickly as the sun rises and sets. There is always exceptions to the rule but to me the game feels pretty lonely at the low end of the game,the High SP players want people to play and they want people to come into 0.0 , but they don't want it to be made any easier to get there which again is understandable but at the same time they need to realize that in a system of experience that is as time intensive as EVE is without any hands on required it's difficult to "hook" people into the game. I keep reading about all these corps that grab up newbies in frigates,teach em to tackle and away they go to 0.0 and never look back to empire space again,but in practice it doesn't seem these situations are as widespread as I perceived.
Since I am not playing anything else at the moment it's easy for me to simply log in once a week and pick a new skill,as I am currently at that point where most of my skills are requiring days to a week to train and I am thankful for grabbing the learning skills early on but all in all my play experience right now is generally boring, running lvl 2's in my cruiser isn't hard or challenging and while it nets money and faction, with no interest in continuing down the mission path I find it difficult to pursue this avenue in the game any further than I need to in an effort to not burn myself out before I ever get to actually play the actual game.
There is something questionable about the advancement in the game when a new player thinks to themselves, gee I wish I had picked this game up about a year ago, it's pretty cool and it would be nice to be playing it right now today,rather than waiting another 5 months for my skills to train up to a respectable level.
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Reven Darklight
256 FREELANCERS
Black Scope Project
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Posted - 2008.03.12 00:19:00 -
[335]
No, No, No
no to the OP and a really big no to anybody who says "ohh lets just give everybody maxed stats and refund the time, people already spent training them" well i say "ohh bugger off and play a different game".
I do not agree with removing the stats, I do not agree with giving everybody maxed stats and then just refunding time to those who have trained the skills.
This game is supposed to be a thinking game, if people don't want to think for themselves and just accept everything told to them, these will be the same people who will be scammed in EVE and in RL we don't want them. If noobs get 'burned out' just training to get the learning skills and leave, well we probable don't want them either.
I used to think no lets protect the newbs and help them in every way, now however i say if they can't handle it they can bugger off. I did it and it seems thousands of other can do it. Why can't the new players do it?
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Dramund
Amarr
Atonement Arms
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Posted - 2008.03.12 00:37:00 -
[336]
Honestly its even less of a big deal for newer players. We know we'll never catch up to people who have been playing since Day One so why rush it? I already rerolled 25 days after starting a character I decided I didn't like. What's 25 days in lieu of 4 years? It's rather comforting.
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Galen Salkor
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Posted - 2008.03.12 00:51:00 -
[337]
Edited by: Galen Salkor on 12/03/2008 00:54:19
Originally by: Dramund
We know we'll never catch up to people who have been playing since Day One so why rush it? I already rerolled 25 days after starting a character I decided I didn't like. What's 25 days in lieu of 4 years? It's rather comforting.
Actually, you will. I've been here since day one and have been forced to start over. Concentrate on one race ship (Gallente, Amarr or Caldari. Minmatar require, for some ships, to split between projectiles and missiles so it takes longer) and you'll catch up in about 2 1/2 years. True they will have 2 1/2 years on you but you can't train a skill beyond level 5 and they can only fly one ship at a time so it won't matter.
That said, I would still trade my right eye for a big huge server reset and all the attribute enhancing skills (not implants though) removed. Everything starting over with the environment as it is now (which is about what they should have been almost 5 year ago) would be somewhat exciting.
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Dramund
Amarr
Atonement Arms
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Posted - 2008.03.12 00:54:00 -
[338]
Originally by: Galen Salkor
Originally by: Dramund
We know we'll never catch up to people who have been playing since Day One so why rush it? I already rerolled 25 days after starting a character I decided I didn't like. What's 25 days in lieu of 4 years? It's rather comforting.
Actually, you will. I've been here since day one and have been forced to start over. Concentrate on one race ship (Gallente, Amarr or Caldari. Minmatar require, for some ships, to split between projectiles and missiles so it takes longer) and you'll catch up in about 2 1/2 years. True they will have 2 1/2 years on you but you can't train a skill beyond level 5 and they can only fly one ship at a time so it won't matter.
Yes I agree there. I should be more specific and say thats its clear to anyone that amassing SP so you can say you have a lot of SP is out of the question for new players, so if you reach your goal one day later or so, its not a big deal.
That - and stories like yours and many similar ones of 2 year characters starting over is quite encouraging.
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Galen Salkor
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Posted - 2008.03.12 00:57:00 -
[339]
Edited by: Galen Salkor on 12/03/2008 00:58:40
Originally by: Dramund
That - and stories like yours and many similar ones of 2 year characters starting over is quite encouraging.
Mine is a long, complicated sad story where I had no real choice.
I have many other good exciting stories from Eve's early days though. :) Ah, adrenaline rush, how I miss it.
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Qarth
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Posted - 2008.03.12 01:02:00 -
[340]
Originally by: Cromzor
Your statement is confusing to me. If I train 24 days to start doing lvl 3 missions,learning skills give the EXACT same benifit as you training 24 days for BS5. The learning skills still work on faster training skills. The sooner you train them, the more effect they have. I was simply trying to maximize my SP/hour return. To do that, you have to train them as early as possible.
I didn't sit in a station, I mined to make isk for implants.
Also, I wasn't saying to get rid of them, I was just suggesting new player are able to train 2 toons at once for a while like many older players got to do.
Okay lets break it down a little more.
With say 4/3 in ALL the learning skills, how much time do you save training a rank 1 or 2 skill?
Little to none. You might save a couple hours time in overall training from 0 to level 5 in said skill at rank 1
Now say you have learning at 5/5 in all skills. How much time do you save in training a rank 1 skill vs. say a rank 14 skill?
The difference is massive at rank 14 and pitiful at rank 1.
So training up all those learning skills in the 1st month is a waste of time that you should have spent training you basic ship skills to get you flying and fighting better.
Thats why you are doing it bass ackwards.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
Black-Out
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Posted - 2008.03.12 01:11:00 -
[341]
Originally by: Qarth
Originally by: Cromzor
Your statement is confusing to me. If I train 24 days to start doing lvl 3 missions,learning skills give the EXACT same benifit as you training 24 days for BS5. The learning skills still work on faster training skills. The sooner you train them, the more effect they have. I was simply trying to maximize my SP/hour return. To do that, you have to train them as early as possible.
I didn't sit in a station, I mined to make isk for implants.
Also, I wasn't saying to get rid of them, I was just suggesting new player are able to train 2 toons at once for a while like many older players got to do.
Okay lets break it down a little more.
With say 4/3 in ALL the learning skills, how much time do you save training a rank 1 or 2 skill?
Little to none. You might save a couple hours time in overall training from 0 to level 5 in said skill at rank 1
Now say you have learning at 5/5 in all skills. How much time do you save in training a rank 1 skill vs. say a rank 14 skill?
The difference is massive at rank 14 and pitiful at rank 1.
So training up all those learning skills in the 1st month is a waste of time that you should have spent training you basic ship skills to get you flying and fighting better.
Thats why you are doing it bass ackwards.
Your understanding of maths makes kitty cry.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Kwitch
Caldari
eXceed Inc.
eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.03.12 01:41:00 -
[342]
No one is really reading anyone else's posts or contributing to the discussion, just posting their own life stories and opinions rather then discussing the valid points and drawbacks to this proposition.
Sorry for playing the part of troll, but all of the drama is supremely entertaining. Everyone has trained some learning skills, so everyone is involved in this matter and has an opinion, which they think is correct and should be heard above everyone else's. With such huge ego's, how can it not be entertainment?
--
If you want to discuss this, consider your position well, succeed that you are quite possibly incorrect in your assumption that you know what's best for the entire franchise as a whole as little to none of us have spent any money invested in demographic research of the player base. CCP's JOB is to continue the franchise in the most lucrative and successful way possible, which just by coincidence means making EVE-Online as fun and rewarding an MMORPG as possible to compete for other titles out there. Any one of you nitwits that thinks you understand the mindset of anyone else in any remote sense and can vouch for what they do or do not think about anything at all is completely insane. Acid trip bonkers. CCP Made EVE. We read these forums because we play EVE, have played EVE, or are somewhat interested in it.
This is because CCP has created a remarkable product that has deserved our attention. It is our JOB to enjoy it; or choose not to, and leave it. But attempting to influence it with your personal life story in an effort to argue a point that really was only a suggestion in the first place and ignore everyone else's counterpoints, further introducing your logic and reasoning as god's holy grace is ridiculous, banal, and bathos.
*eats popcorn*
--
Read of my adventures: Born Dusty - Feeds from a random spaceman |
skandalf
Gallente
Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.03.12 01:41:00 -
[343]
what a ******** idea 
this game takes far too long to get anywhere where you are able to actually play the game to its fullest.
if you dont want to train the learning skills and just fart about for a few months, well dont.
if you do wish to continue playing this game for a long period of time, learn the learners, funny how its a 70mil sp player thats suggested this where he is prolly comfortable and able to fly most ships and do what he wants ingame so why should the current players be gimped?
its not about trying to catch up with the older peeps that have been playing this game, its about enjoying yourself, no more ******** suggestions please.
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Qarth
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Posted - 2008.03.12 02:20:00 -
[344]
Originally by: Malcanis
Your understanding of maths makes kitty cry.
It's called exaggerating. Sometimes you have to make wild statements to get the fine print accross in the contract.
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Draygo Korvan
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Posted - 2008.03.13 06:24:00 -
[345]
The only counter arguement I see here is the age old
I suffered in my day, you should suffer too.
Seriously,
1)Give all new/current players +10 attributes
2)Remove learning skills except Learning itself. Make learning a prerequisite for some science skills.
3)Recoup lost SP by awarding double training time until the player gets twice as much sp as they lost.
4)Reduce newbie skill templates down to the lower sp ones. I think its better for the newbies to start out in frigates and have to stay there for a while instead of being able to jump right into essentially cruisers. And it helps not having to worry about clones for a while. Eve is information overload as it is.
The vet players really havent explained to my satisfaction why the learning skills are a benifit to the game. Yes the newbie will gain sp at a faster rate while he is a newbie compared to when you were a newbie. Just because you survived and went through that is no justification to leave a system in place. It didnt work for previous arguments, it shouldnt apply here.
Are you going to suggest all newbies must warp to 15 and cant warp to 0? Or must make instas to warp to 0?
As far as the skill system is concerned, the vet player already has a substantial lead in the SP game, the learning change will not change that lead at all.
I think it would be better for the game, and the players if learning skills were removed.
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Lobster Man
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Posted - 2008.03.13 06:29:00 -
[346]
If learning skills are removed, I'd like to skill train skills as quickly as I can now, but without them. I'd be pretty ****ed if my training times were reflecting a -9 attribute bonus to each area......
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Kwitch
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Posted - 2008.03.13 06:31:00 -
[347]
Edited by: Kwitch on 13/03/2008 06:34:39
Dear Draygo,
way to go bringing back to life a dead topic.
this was on page 3. and your 'point' as it were is only to state that one person's misery should not be another's.
Which has ZERO to do with the actual discussion regarding the balance issues behind this.
Then you went on to make a list which had some random points that didn't really make any solution to the question of balance versus equality, just whatever you came up with in the random 15 seconds it took you to post.
Then you said something about insta warps to 0km and 15km and finished with a comment that sp is a race to the finish line and that it's some kind of goal to have a lot of SP. completely missing the entire topic of the post.
a winner is you.
*editing as to not be spammish*
If you are going to post onto a topic, read the posts prior and address the points and developments amde to the thread thusly. Returning to the primary point of conversation disregarding any progress made is without purpose, belittling to oneself for trolling, and very much unhelpful.
We were at the point discussing this of CCP changing learning skills to possibly set as a secondary skillset, i.e. you can train another skill while learning skills train. There were also some ideas regarding skillpoint refunds and the unbalanceness behind them.
If you are going to reply to this post, it would be most helpful and productive if you continue on those points, rather than just stating what ever other 2 second spamming swab has said up to this point, a variation of "i agree" or "i disagree". This isn't a petition, it's a discussion.
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Read of my adventures: Born Dusty - Feeds from a random spaceman |
cal nereus
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Posted - 2008.03.13 06:37:00 -
[348]
Originally by: Avon
Edited by: Avon on 10/03/2008 15:00:26
The learning skills aren't the problem.
The problem is that the "old" players are telling the "new" players that they *must* train the learning skills before they even consider undocking.
Bad advice is the issue.
Pretty much correct.
Learning skills themselves aren't bad, and when used in moderation they can be very helpful, while still allowing the intermittent training of "fun" skills to keep things interesting at the same time. All players have the potential to find the balance that works best for them, and the skills themselves are not to blame if they choose to sacrifice fun for perfection.
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Join BH-DL
Skills |
Kwitch
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Posted - 2008.03.13 06:44:00 -
[349]
Originally by: cal nereus
Originally by: Avon
Edited by: Avon on 10/03/2008 15:00:26
The learning skills aren't the problem.
The problem is that the "old" players are telling the "new" players that they *must* train the learning skills before they even consider undocking.
Bad advice is the issue.
Pretty much correct.
Learning skills themselves aren't bad, and when used in moderation they can be very helpful, while still allowing the intermittent training of "fun" skills to keep things interesting at the same time. All players have the potential to find the balance that works best for them, and the skills themselves are not to blame if they choose to sacrifice fun for perfection.
yeah, exactly. How long does it take with 0 learning skills to get cruiser to 3? On a character that starts out with, say, frigate 3? And what is a new pilot really going to need more than that for, or even be able to afford? At that point, giving new pilots ISK is almost a burden more than a gift.
I think the balance is right on the money for time + effort = reward. Perspective wise it can seem like less since most of us have been non-beginners for so long. But stepping into a tech 2 frigate or t1 cruiser from your first experiences can be very rewarding. Learning skills or not.
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Read of my adventures: Born Dusty - Feeds from a random spaceman |
Yosarian
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Posted - 2008.03.13 09:35:00 -
[350]
Give all current players and any new players level 4 in all learning skills (both sets).
If you want to train to level 5 its up to you, and those that did still keep their 'advantage'.
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Tellnan Matkiel
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Posted - 2008.03.13 10:02:00 -
[351]
Originally by: Jaabaa Prime
Somehow I get the feeling that newer players want something for nothing.
That you have made this comment simply shows you haven't read this thread closely enough. Myself and a number of other new players have said that we are perfectly happy as is. Especially considering this thread has been started by someone who is most definitely not a new player.
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XenoPagan
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Posted - 2008.03.13 10:16:00 -
[352]
yea, I remember when I started, got the same advice again and again- train learning skills! so I trained them to some lvl 2 or something and saw that this thing just takes too much time and continued to train them almost year later when I had everything needed to have fun in game.
and now its exacly the same advice I always give to new guys - don't overdo the learning skills, they just take the fun out. train up your ships, weapons and support until you're decent in whatever you want to do, slap in some implants and THEN if you want, max out the learning
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Thundercat Doom
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Posted - 2008.03.13 10:59:00 -
[353]
I have no issues with how the learning skills are. I don't care if a few new players get turned off to the game because of the learning skills. There will always be other players who don't mind the learning skills to replace the ones that quit over them. As for those who quit, we didn't need them anyway because they probably would be the ones in here whining about dumping the learning skills. We are better off without them, Eve doesn't need the ones that would quit over something trivial such as this. 
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Rob Buie
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Posted - 2008.03.13 11:12:00 -
[354]
Edited by: Rob Buie on 13/03/2008 11:15:09
i read the OP, the first page, and the last two pages just to catch up on where the discussions at.
Personally I think the skilling system is broke altogether. Learning skills and implants are just two symptons of the problem altogether.
Learning skills are stupid because they add nothing to the fun of the game, merely an additional wait that everyone does simply because training both of them to level 4 pays off before you finish your first year of gameplay. If they paid off after 3-4 years of gameplay the system could make sense becuase then you'd really be debating whether its worth it, but either way I had no excitement waiting for my learning skills to finish like many who've already mentioned the same thing.
Implants are a reason deterring people from pvp'ing and moving out to 0.0. There worth it enough to drop the 25-50 million for +3's since thats a 17% avg training time boost depending on your base but since your talking like a 25% chance of losing them (varies with your computer's stats) everytime you lose your ship it tacks on another hour or two to your grinding every time your podded, and jump clones really dont count since its on a 24 hour timer. To fix the implant system they should either change the cooldown on clone jumping to an hour or remove them entirely.
The biggest issue is that this game could get huge if it would appeal to the rest of the mmo market that enjoys having some impact on their progression in the game. *puts flamesuit on*. Yes i'm suggesting a grind system. No im not suggesting an infinite grind system.
I dont think it would be gamebreaking at all to include some kind of neural booster that enhances your skilling rates until you've reached about 10 million sp and then your slowboating it like every other player.
There are millions of mmo'ers out there who like having some impact on their characters progression. I've met enough already in past mmo's i've played who have gotten turned off by EvE during the trial process or even before the trial process simply becuase they have to 'wait to xp'. They dont care how long it takes them, they just like the notion of being able to affect their experience gain rate whatever form that takes. A player who likes to experience grind does not mean hes not a quality mmo'er and would detract from the EvE community, so you can't say EvE is not the game for him than 'cause EvE is so much more than its casual leveling system.
Keep in mind i'd only like to see this apply to up to 10 million sp, you could never outgrind anyone that has 5 million sp before you started the game following these numbers.
I think fair numbers for this grind system would be somewhere in the area of
500,000 isk: 33% faster skilling booster
1,000,000 isk: 50% faster skilling booster
2,000,000 isk: 75% faster skilling booster
20,000,000: 100% faster skilling booster
They're pathetically cheap but they'd only apply to up to 10 million sp and since the fastest you could skill is at 100% faster skilling you'd never catch up to someone who remained as active as you and had 5 million sp when you started.
What this would do for the mindset of a new player coming from other mmo's is give him the illusion per se of grinding to level which would sucker him in and get him in his first tech 2 ships a little faster and by that time he'd be hooked.
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Royaldo
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Posted - 2008.03.13 11:17:00 -
[355]
i like learning skills. esp good for those of us who had no idea what they did when they made their char. started with 5 on perc, 11 memory and 8 charisma.
avon pointed out the problem isnt the learning skills themselves.
its about bad advice.
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Burnharder
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Posted - 2008.03.13 11:21:00 -
[356]
Originally by: Rob Buie
The biggest issue is that this game could get huge if it would appeal to the rest of the mmo market that enjoys having some impact on their progression in the game. *puts flamesuit on*. Yes i'm suggesting a grind system. No im not suggesting an infinite grind system.
Grind system you say? In beta, when you switched on your afteburner, you'd get a point on that skill. In order to level up, all you needed to do was sit outside station with your afterburner on auto-repeat. So, err, they removed it.
Once again, the issue isn't about learning skills, it's about how long it takes to do stuff. That is why the argument, "we had to do it so you should too" is perfectly fine. Also, for a long period of the game, there were no advanced learning skills AT ALL (correct me if I'm wrong but they were introduced in late 2004 or early 2005 - at least my alt was in CFS in Period Basis when they hit as far as I can remember so it must have been a long time ago!).
So no, we didn't have to grind learning skills when we were kids, because only the rank 1 skills existed - and we mostly trained them up by interleaving them with other skills. Some of us didn't train them up at all until much later.
The problem is new players coming from [fill in the blank] MMO, expecting to go from zero to l33t by leveling in a few months. Eve isn't like that. You don't compete with other players on skill points. You can kill "higher level" players than yourself with knowledge, which you don't get training skills, you get that from other players.
Once again, this whole debate is daft.
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Rob Buie
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Posted - 2008.03.13 11:23:00 -
[357]
Edited by: Rob Buie on 13/03/2008 11:24:47
Originally by: Burnharder
Grind system you say? In beta, when you switched on your afteburner, you'd get a point on that skill. In order to level up, all you needed to do was sit outside station with your afterburner on auto-repeat. So, err, they removed it.
Wow your opinion is worthless cause you dont read a word people say. ffs read what people say before you post you obviously have no clue the idea i suggested if you think it paralles in anyway a 'use and skill' system.
And you fail to recognise the fact that the game has changed. No longer is everyone new to the game and everyones on the level playing field of tech 1 ships. Tech 2's are far more a staple of pvp than they were when they first came out and the developers should recognise that.
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Sharkk
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Posted - 2008.03.13 11:28:00 -
[358]
Agree with OP
Learning skills are an arbitrary barrier to enjoying the game that do nothing
other than add a 2 months downtime period for the new player while they train them
this U don't have to train them BS is just that. BS.
anybody with half a brain who is looking for a game to play for any extended period of time
immediately recognizes the benefits and the opportunity cost of not training these skills
in short for anyone serious about playing eve they are mandatory
and potential long term subscription payers are to CCP
as exhumer's in low sec are to piwats
paydirt!
and potential new eve palyers should be of equal value to us who play eve to the same extent
without the influx of newbs eve would face a slow but steady decline to extinction!
and more subs for CCP means new super hightech servers farms for us
so get off your &^#@&$#&$#*%$ soap boxes
and think about whats good for the game
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Burnharder
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Posted - 2008.03.13 11:35:00 -
[359]
Edited by: Burnharder on 13/03/2008 11:37:04
Originally by: Rob Buie
Wow your opinion is worthless cause you dont read a word people say. ffs read what people say before you post you obviously have no clue the idea i suggested if you think it paralles in anyway a 'use and skill' system.
Why change the skill system now? Whatever your idea is, your goal is to get new players into Tech 2 ships faster, period. You want "end-game" now.
Originally by: Rob Buie
And you fail to recognise the fact that the game has changed. No longer is everyone new to the game and everyones on the level playing field of tech 1 ships. Tech 2's are far more a staple of pvp than they were when they first came out and the developers should recognise that.
Yes they are, so what?
Originally by: Rob Buie
EDIT: looked through your past posts which reveal your either a very subtle troll, or you just blatantly disregard what other people have to say and continue to spew your thoughts without a care for their arguments
Ad Hominem ftl. I've been playing Eve since beta, I've got some opinions and I like to add them to debates. I'm disregarding what you say, because as I've said a few times before, this is a solution looking for a problem.
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Zero Target
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Posted - 2008.03.13 11:44:00 -
[360]
Originally by: Tarron Sarek
The big problem is that even with Learning Skills gone, new players will still complain.
Yeah, you never hear veterans complaining about anything in the forums, right? 
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