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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
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Posted - 2008.03.11 01:48:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Del Narveux Titans are alright aside from maybe portals bein a bit too easy, since theyre sitting ducks after they DD. The real problem is that carrier gangs > * , need only look at battle reports coming out of major .0 fights on this one.
what does that make a carrier gang with titans
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happomaagi
Art of War
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Posted - 2008.03.11 01:52:00 -
[92]
That sig radius bonus on Ragnarok would definately rock hard in a nano gang.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
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Posted - 2008.03.11 01:54:00 -
[93]
Originally by: happomaagi That sig radius bonus on Ragnarok would definately rock hard in a nano gang.
next fotm? nano halo rag gangs?
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happomaagi
Art of War
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Posted - 2008.03.11 01:59:00 -
[94]
It would be so hilarious to see Triumvirate bring a Ragnarok with Skirmish links!
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
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Posted - 2008.03.11 02:00:00 -
[95]
would be, but claymore
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happomaagi
Art of War
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Posted - 2008.03.11 02:01:00 -
[96]
Yes, Claymore, we dont want to get all silly here.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
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Posted - 2008.03.11 02:17:00 -
[97]
Originally by: happomaagi Yes, Claymore, we dont want to get all silly here.
right, and amarr never had any cap problems because they should have been flying with avatars in fleet
also watch out for decloaking drake/leviathan gangs
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Aeo IV
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.03.11 02:29:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Dirk Magnum
Originally by: Hitme Harder How about you start us off with some intended ship roles. I mean, we get that they're big, have been described by CCP as large ****s. But was there a purpose to having them in the game beyond an opportunity to write some fanfic?
My sarcasm detection is only trained to 4 so maybe I'm taking your post too seriously, but Titans DO have roles. They have a variety of them in fact, and most have to do with alliance logistics and combat support. They have massive bonuses that they give to fleet members and of course you can use the jump gate to move friendly ships to other systems. There's even a clone bay so your pilots can get right back in the action with the ships you're carrying in your giant corporate hangar.
Okay, here's an idea, what if Titans had more bonuses towards alliance logistics? for example, every titan in an Alliance could be treated as if it was a station; it would appear on the market as such, and pilots would be able to buy and sell modules that would normally only be found via the contract system.
They should have some defined role.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
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Posted - 2008.03.11 03:04:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Aeo IV
Originally by: Dirk Magnum
Originally by: Hitme Harder How about you start us off with some intended ship roles. I mean, we get that they're big, have been described by CCP as large ****s. But was there a purpose to having them in the game beyond an opportunity to write some fanfic?
My sarcasm detection is only trained to 4 so maybe I'm taking your post too seriously, but Titans DO have roles. They have a variety of them in fact, and most have to do with alliance logistics and combat support. They have massive bonuses that they give to fleet members and of course you can use the jump gate to move friendly ships to other systems. There's even a clone bay so your pilots can get right back in the action with the ships you're carrying in your giant corporate hangar.
Okay, here's an idea, what if Titans had more bonuses towards alliance logistics? for example, every titan in an Alliance could be treated as if it was a station; it would appear on the market as such, and pilots would be able to buy and sell modules that would normally only be found via the contract system.
They should have some defined role.
somewhat what i expected of titans, as they are the size of a city... oh and come on! I mean they affect the tide on planets!!!
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Dirk Magnum
Spearhead Endeavors
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Posted - 2008.03.11 03:14:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Hitme Harder If there are defined roles for Titans, by all means they should write them down.
This is not the mentality behind Eve. This is not the mentality behind Eve. This is not the mentality behind Eve.
People find their own ways to play to every ship's strength and exploit every other ship's weakness. That is the one and only principle here. Ships have their stated bonuses and base attributes. Nothing else needs to be written down about them by CCP ever.
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Phrixus Zephyr
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.11 03:24:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Soulita
Lots of reasons. Too many to list.
Try.
1 Click to destroy a fleet is broken. Especially considering alliances like BoB for example can pop a DD every 7.5 minutes forever if they so choose.
I don't care what the concequence is, destroying everything on grid that isn't a capital or tanked specifically for it is broken.
It was a stupid idea when they came up with it. Its a stupidier idea now there are 30-50 titans in game.
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Rawr Cristina
Caldari Naqam
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Posted - 2008.03.11 03:37:00 -
[102]
Edited by: Rawr Cristina on 11/03/2008 03:38:08
Titans are fine imo. Pretty easy to tank even if you haven't setup for it. I'd bet that more ISK was lost building most Titans than all the ships they managed to kill. ...
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Hitme Harder
HERRO KITTY
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Posted - 2008.03.11 06:27:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Dirk Magnum
Originally by: Hitme Harder If there are defined roles for Titans, by all means they should write them down.
This is not the mentality behind Eve. This is not the mentality behind Eve. This is not the mentality behind Eve.
People find their own ways to play to every ship's strength and exploit every other ship's weakness. That is the one and only principle here. Ships have their stated bonuses and base attributes. Nothing else needs to be written down about them by CCP ever.
Heh. If that were true, no ship would ever get buffed or nerfed. Take some of the HACs that weren't performing their intended role, or the latest dev suggestion to "fix" assault frigates.
Designers don't just add stuff arbitrarily. Every ship class in eve has clearly defined roles and are balanced to do something better than other ship, or fulfill a role, and are buffed or nerfed to achieve balance.
Theres no documentation about Titans other than some fanfiction. Titans have a Doomsday Device and jump bridge and huge gang bonuses and clone vat, so we can only assume that they are intended to do anything or perform any tactic that these things allow.
One titan seems to have been addressed. It is clear that at least 1 doomsday is intended and the nerf to jumping to make them vulnerable is what makes this clear. Stacking multiple titans and having multiple doomsdays available for defensive strategy of vulnerable titans hasn't been addressed.
Most reasonable people can easily see how such tactics aren't balanced and shouldn't have been intended, but when you're intended ship role is "hey look its big", who knows?
And if by some crazy unbiased chance it IS intended, then it begs the question, what in eve could possibly be the intended counter-measure.
Cause the most common solutions are "bring smaller fleets to cause less lag" or "bring backup fleets". And both are obviously ridiculous suggestions.
The reason why I think, no.. the reason why I KNOW that titans weren't thoroughly thought out, planned, or balanced at all, is because the writing is on the wall. It takes no inside source to intuitively know this fact. Look at titans from their beginning to how they are now. BASIC functions of titans being nerfed. The original design failed to identify blatantly obvious imbalances of titans. So what on earth should lead me to believe that CCP bothered to identify the potential meta-imbalances of titans?
Anyone with any reason can confidently state that CCP didn't bother.
AREN'T THEY ADORABLE? |
Sylia
Minmatar Malevolent Intervention Reavers.
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Posted - 2008.03.11 06:51:00 -
[104]
Originally by: CCP Whisper To the OP: Please, satisfy my curiosity and tell me just why you want these iconic vessels removed from the game? If the list of reasons is indeed so long as to cause my eyeballs to start bleeding, then how about the top ten reasons? I shan't be able to sleep tonight without getting this cleared up, and then I'll be grumpy on patch day and will probably end up taking a hammer to the hamsters in an attempt to re-enact the Monty Python mouse-organ sketch (but with hamsters...and probably lyrics in Icelandic or Bork Bork Bork). Please, think of the hamsters. Top ten reasons. C'mon.
More dev posts liek these please, with a lill more flavour of defendign your game and selves. Its about tiem the devs started *****slappign idiots a lill more
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Hitme Harder
HERRO KITTY
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Posted - 2008.03.11 06:56:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Sylia
Originally by: CCP Whisper To the OP: Please, satisfy my curiosity and tell me just why you want these iconic vessels removed from the game? If the list of reasons is indeed so long as to cause my eyeballs to start bleeding, then how about the top ten reasons? I shan't be able to sleep tonight without getting this cleared up, and then I'll be grumpy on patch day and will probably end up taking a hammer to the hamsters in an attempt to re-enact the Monty Python mouse-organ sketch (but with hamsters...and probably lyrics in Icelandic or Bork Bork Bork). Please, think of the hamsters. Top ten reasons. C'mon.
More dev posts liek these please, with a lill more flavour of defendign your game and selves. Its about tiem the devs started *****slappign idiots a lill more
More like trolling a serious topic of a concerned patron. Such dedication brings a tear to your eye. *sniff*
AREN'T THEY ADORABLE? |
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CCP Whisper
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Posted - 2008.03.11 09:59:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Soulita 1) Single push of a button should be able to wipe out whole fleet of non cap ships?
If you know your opponent has a titan, plan to take it on. Tank your ships accordingly. Have a secondary fleet as backup. Have a squadron of logistics ships to warp in and repair those who survived the Doomsday strike while your reinforcements come in. Regardless of what some of the people shouting loudly may say, combat in EVE is far from linear and you can negate your opponent's superiority in firepower through careful planning and having a fleet that knows how to work together beyond being able to warp in, hit F1 through F8 and die.
Originally by: Soulita 2) Titan and mothership pilots are sort of stuck in their ships since they can not dock. So if trained on an old account most skills are likely to be wasted.
Not true. You can leave your titan or mothership and switch to a different vessel. If your alliance has the resources to build a titan, they should have the foresight and planning to have more than one pilot for the same. I would have three pilots, preferably in three different time zones. Committing to building a titan means more than assembling the ship itself. It means your organisation has to plan to maintain it. Having other pilots for it seems a fairly sensible thing to do.
Originally by: Soulita 3) Titan gangs. With time passing, becomes more and more likely we will see these. Titan gangs need no support ships.
Titan gangs need no support ships why? They need fuel. They need defence. Titans have been lost because they got caught on their own. If there are three of them flying together this just seems like a good target to throw a lot of resources at.
Originally by: Soulita Also, what in the world is iconic about these ships? Bunch of polygons like all the other ships. Just bigger. I would not miss them one bit once they are gone.
They are iconic in the same way that faction battleships are iconic. The same way that your first battleship is iconic to a new player or your first POS is iconic to a new corporation. They represent a long-term goal that people can work towards and point to as a symbol of what their alliance is capable of achieving. Building something like this takes a ton of effort, leadership, motivation and commitment.
I have been there to witness when one of these things hatches...the pride that the people who build them have for their achievement is something that I think no other game can offer. Feel free to question the sense in building them. You will join the ranks of people who questioned why we should land someone on the moon, climb Mount Everest or build marvellous buildings. "Because we can" has been a good enough reason for many humans deciding to commit to a large, difficult endeavour in the past, and I think that will continue in the future.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.03.11 10:04:00 -
[107]
What if your opponent has 5 titans (Morsus Mihi) or 8 (BoB) and hides them under a cynojammer? How would you deal with that? Any conventional fleet gets wiped out instantly by those multiple DDs, and no capital fleet can even touch them because they are under a cynojammer. Obviously you have no idea how this is working ingame, and even less how it will be in a years time. Then you'll see alliances with 10-15 titans, and then you will be forced to nerf them after all and the crying will be much much worse. So I'd suggest you nerf it sooner rather than later.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.03.11 10:07:00 -
[108]
To add, I wouldn't nerf the titan itself. I would remove all the BPOs though (and reimburse the owners) to make sure no new ones go into build ever again. Let the current ones be the legacy of a monumentally stupid decision in gamedesign by CCP until they die out from attrition.
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CCP Whisper
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Posted - 2008.03.11 10:09:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Malachon Draco To add, I wouldn't nerf the titan itself. I would remove all the BPOs though (and reimburse the owners) to make sure no new ones go into build ever again. Let the current ones be the legacy of a monumentally stupid decision in gamedesign by CCP until they die out from attrition.
I was wondering how long it would take for this thread to remind me why I usually stay out of General Discussion. Thanks!
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.03.11 10:11:00 -
[110]
Originally by: CCP Whisper
Originally by: Malachon Draco To add, I wouldn't nerf the titan itself. I would remove all the BPOs though (and reimburse the owners) to make sure no new ones go into build ever again. Let the current ones be the legacy of a monumentally stupid decision in gamedesign by CCP until they die out from attrition.
I was wondering how long it would take for this thread to remind me why I usually stay out of General Discussion. Thanks!
Bye, don't let the door hit you on the way out. Learn to deal with criticism.
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Zey Nadar
Gallente Heavily Utilized Mechanic Mayhem
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Posted - 2008.03.11 10:15:00 -
[111]
Again opinions from a noob: I think titans are cool. Doomsdays are propably the problem more than titans themselves.. Wiping out entire fleets is inherently inbalanced, yes/no? And because apparently doomsdaying is pretty much the only role for a titan. Maybe some variety in form of modules should be introduced into the equation, and doomsday nerfed in some respect.
ps. and that theres too much isk in the game.
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Aneurysm
Gallente Revival.
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Posted - 2008.03.11 10:27:00 -
[112]
Originally by: CCP Whisper
Originally by: Soulita 1) Single push of a button should be able to wipe out whole fleet of non cap ships?
If you know your opponent has a titan, plan to take it on. Tank your ships accordingly. Have a secondary fleet as backup. Have a squadron of logistics ships to warp in and repair those who survived the Doomsday strike while your reinforcements come in. Regardless of what some of the people shouting loudly may say, combat in EVE is far from linear and you can negate your opponent's superiority in firepower through careful planning and having a fleet that knows how to work together beyond being able to warp in, hit F1 through F8 and die.
That would be great wouldnt it, if the server could actually handle it,
DD Activate > Lag > Death > Jump/Warp in > Lag > Death > Node Crash > Login > Turkey Shoot
Rinse and repeat as much as u like... ---------------------------------
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Wild Rho
Amarr GoonFleet
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Posted - 2008.03.11 10:48:00 -
[113]
Edited by: Wild Rho on 11/03/2008 10:51:37 I was going to say the same thing. Whisper your ideas are nice in theory but ignore quite a few key factors that are the reality we have to deal with:
- The enemy has multiple titan DDs of varying damage types that can obliterate any surviving support fleet.
- It takes far less time for the titans to align and warp than it does for the attackers to get into fresh ships and get back into the fight (especially if operating in enemy territory).
- The titans will have support fleets all of their very own, often carrier blobs that can dish out fighters and remote rep the titans at the same time so the attackers have to try and deal with all this plus DDs. A group of logistic ships wouldn't last 10 seconds on the field.
- Battle lag. The cold hard fact is the sort of lag involved with titan DDs and the numbers required to both kill and defend them cripple any sort of ability to carry out fancy fleet tactics therefore the simplest approaches (raw firepower) are often the most effective.
No single pilot should have the power to obliterate entire fleets at the push of a button. Titans would be far better served as the ultimate tool for logistical support (the jump bridge is a good example) i.e. huge storage capacity for ships and equipment, facilities for extremely rapid ship and ammo production in the field, flexible fleet bonuses that the titan could adjust to suit a particular fleet configuration (think scripted gang mods).
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Lukom N'Sharii
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.11 11:01:00 -
[114]
Let me remember you that when Oort lost her Leviathan RA had two titans in the system and both of them fired DD on BoB fleet in same time. The result was one RA Titan down and medicore losses on BoB side. So rumors about double DD titan combo beeing unstopable is not true. Also it's hard to say that RA titan pilots are noobs.
My impresion is that most of the people here want to win fight against modern tank unit using front charge of light infantry in open field and from some unkown reasons they are deeply shocked that this tactic is not working.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.03.11 11:18:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Lukom N'Sharii Let me remember you that when Oort lost her Leviathan RA had two titans in the system and both of them fired DD on BoB fleet in same time. The result was one RA Titan down and medicore losses on BoB side. So rumors about double DD titan combo beeing unstopable is not true. Also it's hard to say that RA titan pilots are noobs.
My impresion is that most of the people here want to win fight against modern tank unit using front charge of light infantry in open field and from some unkown reasons they are deeply shocked that this tactic is not working.
Question, did BoB have dreads and carriers in that fight? Did they make a big difference? And since I wasn't there, what if RA had 4 titans there? Or 6? Or 10? Would that have made a difference?
BoB has 8 titans now. MM has 5. God knows how many AAA and RA have. Personally I think the current number of titans ingame is already a problem, but somewhat manageable with very careful planning.
But lets fastforward 1 year.
How many titans will there be then? And how invulnerable will an alliance be that can field 10+? Because we all know that will happen.
When the great war started (lets put it at Molle's 'Chowdown, we're stealing your targets' statement), how many titans did BoB have? 2 or 3? You lost 1 in the meantime, now have 8. That means that despite this huge-ass war you managed to build 6 titans in 1 years time.
How many titans do you think RA and other will be churning out over the next year? Will this still be a game you'd recommend to anyone starting once every 0.0 territorial battle gets decided by who can field 5+ titans under a cynojammer?
Like I said, there is no real need to remove the titans that currently exist. But I am damn sure that with the current speed with which alliances are building more titans, one of 3 things will happen.
1. Titans get nerfed 2. Titans get removed altogether 3. Territorial warfare in 0.0 becomes totally FUBARed so that very few people will ever want to engage in it ever again.
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Wild Rho
Amarr GoonFleet
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Posted - 2008.03.11 11:24:00 -
[116]
The titan went down because the heavy interdictor survived both DD's (credit where credit is due) and could pin down the titans while reinforcements showed up. Both ships were operating in enemy territory without a proper support fleet so of course were going to go down, they took a gamble and it went against them. We're also entering the stage where many alliances can deploy more than two or eve three titans at once and no sub capital can tank that sort of punishment.
To take your analogy it's closer to infantry charging a target only to be nuked from above with little hope for a counter attack.
The real problem is this whole situation has the potential for completely stalemating any 0.0 conflicts by rendering sub capital fleets worthless on the field yet still requiring them to break things like cyno jammers.
I'm not against titans because I'm in goonfleet, as you pointed out, our allies and our own alliance have them as well.
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HenkieBoy
Enrave
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Posted - 2008.03.11 11:34:00 -
[117]
I really suggest CCP rethinks the whole 0.0 war thing. Something needs to be done, thats for sure.. Every months EVE gets new cap pilots where we get to a point the non cap ships become a rare sight in 0.0 battles.
The problem begins with POS warfare. Without cap ships its impossible to take over systems, so cap ships are needed. There are 2 ways to kill a cap ship, bring another cap ship or alot of non cap ships. The bigger the cap ship (eg Titan) the more small ships you need which will cause massive lag and in the end node crashes.
The following sollutions come to mind:
* Change/remove/rethink the whole POS warfare. * Change the way cap ships work. I suggest that cap ships should only be effective against other cap ships OR make small ships like frigs/cruisers effective against cap ships.
Another problem with cap warfare is the whole drone problem. Drones are controlled by the server, ships arent. When there is major lag drones get kills, ships don't because players can't control their ships while the server keeps controlling drones.
I really think CCP should change all this before the move forward just like the AF problem. We got a test server for a reason, invite alot of people and simulate warfare. Can't be that difficult.
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ArmyOfMe
hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.03.11 11:49:00 -
[118]
There is nothing really wrong with titans at all, they are fine the way they are. its pos warfare thats the problem imo(long, boring and blobs)
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Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.11 12:25:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Malachon Draco What if your opponent has 5 titans (Morsus Mihi) or 8 (BoB) and hides them under a cynojammer? How would you deal with that? Any conventional fleet gets wiped out instantly by those multiple DDs, and no capital fleet can even touch them because they are under a cynojammer. Obviously you have no idea how this is working ingame, and even less how it will be in a years time. Then you'll see alliances with 10-15 titans, and then you will be forced to nerf them after all and the crying will be much much worse. So I'd suggest you nerf it sooner rather than later.
I keep seeing people banging on about this, but actually I don't see the problem.
Firstly, if organisations are going to build up any meaningful 0.0 Empires (in the way that ASCN tried, for example), defensable borders are the most important factor. Again and again we have seen alliances steamrollered because no amount of ISK, logistics, planning, or dedication could actually provide a meaningful defence. If you want to take a titan filled cyno-jammed system, break sov. Disrupt fueling of jump-bridges to hamper defence. Take down jammers and bridges in other systems in the constellation. Force the enemy to actively defend.
Once you get to the fortified "inner sanctum" of any alliance space it should be hard to break an organised and determined defence. The maxiumum size of such a defensive area is limited if it is to remain effective, and could ultimately serve as a constraining factor for the expansion of Empires, a border in a much more real sense that Eve is used to. Within that border it is possible, to keep "non-combatants" better protected, and more able to exploit the resources of the player Empire which they are part of.
Sure, ideally there would be better mechanics to enable this type of border, but until then are titan infested cyno jammed systems really the evil they are made out to be?
I don't have a problem with any alliance being able to create a meaningful defensive area, in fact I think it would make it possible to open up 0.0 more which would be great. Currently some alliances (basically the ones with lots of titans) have an advantage in this area, one which they have earned, but it isn't out of the reach of others if they also wish to invest in it. I'd be happier with an alternative mechanic, maybe less scaleable but also less costly (in terms of both ISK and time), but is the current situation really so undesireable?
Is it not more important to the future of Eve, and 0.0 specifically, that players can build more meaningful, more defensable, more stable Empires? Defineable borders, with increasing cost (again ISK and time/logistics) as they expand, would lead to Alliances claiming a volume of space more in line with their ability to sustain it, and conflict between Empires would revolve around expansion rather than plain aggression.
Maybe ultimately this isn't the way to go about it, but it is a start. Some great Empires have fallen for the want of defensible borders, and that is a shame. I am sure ASCN would still be here today if building Empires had some sort of meaningful game mechanics to support it.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Garia666
Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E White Core
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Posted - 2008.03.11 12:28:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Maybe ultimately this isn't the way to go about it, but it is a start. Some great Empires have fallen for the want of defensible borders, and that is a shame. I am sure ASCN would still be here today if building Empires had some sort of meaningful game mechanics to support it.
LV aswell
Quote: CCP Chronotis Amarr boost is coming in a future dev blog, lets keep this on topic
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