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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Temper
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Posted - 2008.03.11 15:10:00 -
[151]
I have played ALOT of games over the years and have found that expense of and item (no matter what it is) is never a limiting factor in the long run of it's production. Make no mistake there will be groups of titans someday, their expense only slows it down. The solution is an 'upkeep' of ships both as an isk sink and to make it harder for one alliance to fund gangs of titans. My personal opinion would be the implimentation of a 'crew' expense that can both be trained and gain xp to boost a ship. similar to boosters but the constent cost/upkeep would be high enough and proportional to the size of the ship to keep groups from forming. Unless the alliance has a very strong industrial backbone to support them, thus making them vunerable in other ways ;)
Just my 2 cents I welcome the heat of your flames
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.03.11 15:14:00 -
[152]
Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 11/03/2008 15:03:02
Originally by: Malachon Draco The only option would be to have cynoships in every system and a titan + large BS/capfleet ready at all times to take advantage of any lapse of cynojammer coverage. Not realistic.
So a force at least equal to the defender?
Honestly mate, if someone builds a castle and defends it, it *is* fair for it to keep them safe from a bunch of peasants with pitchforks.
I don't think you *get* castles.
You're making a wrong comparison. If an attacker could field an overwhelming force in any timezone where the defender has no titans on and no fleet to speak of, then the castle is attackable. However, with some titans magically being online almost 23/7 or when there are enough titans to cover all timezones well enough (i.e. within a year or so), even that advantage is practically nullified.
The defender on the other hand, can use the wee hours of the morning/night to safely bridge in tons of supplies, unlike in a real siege. So the attacker has an impossible job to maintain a huge force 23/7 in order to have a chance to break in, while the defender only needs a much smaller force, or even hardly any force at all to get supplies inside in the quiet times.
Since Eve is not a job but a game, I will argue that that makes it unlike a real siege and makes it easier for defenders. And the cause is that multiple titans in a defended system makes it possible for a far smaller group of defenders to hold a vast attacking force at bay without any need for skill or PvP to maintain. So if you have enough isk and enough people you can put in a titan to defend 23/7, defence becomes unbalanced.
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Asestorian
Domination. Scorched Earth.
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Posted - 2008.03.11 15:14:00 -
[153]
Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 11/03/2008 15:03:02
Originally by: Malachon Draco The only option would be to have cynoships in every system and a titan + large BS/capfleet ready at all times to take advantage of any lapse of cynojammer coverage. Not realistic.
So a force at least equal to the defender?
Honestly mate, if someone builds a castle and defends it, it *is* fair for it to keep them safe from a bunch of peasants with pitchforks.
I don't think you *get* castles.
Thisthisthis tbh.
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MOZO
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ArmyOfMe
hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.03.11 15:18:00 -
[154]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Malachon Draco What if your opponent has 5 titans (Morsus Mihi) or 8 (BoB) and hides them under a cynojammer? How would you deal with that? Any conventional fleet gets wiped out instantly by those multiple DDs, and no capital fleet can even touch them because they are under a cynojammer. Obviously you have no idea how this is working ingame, and even less how it will be in a years time. Then you'll see alliances with 10-15 titans, and then you will be forced to nerf them after all and the crying will be much much worse. So I'd suggest you nerf it sooner rather than later.
I keep seeing people banging on about this, but actually I don't see the problem.
Firstly, if organisations are going to build up any meaningful 0.0 Empires (in the way that ASCN tried, for example), defensable borders are the most important factor. Again and again we have seen alliances steamrollered because no amount of ISK, logistics, planning, or dedication could actually provide a meaningful defence. If you want to take a titan filled cyno-jammed system, break sov. Disrupt fueling of jump-bridges to hamper defence. Take down jammers and bridges in other systems in the constellation. Force the enemy to actively defend.
Once you get to the fortified "inner sanctum" of any alliance space it should be hard to break an organised and determined defence. The maxiumum size of such a defensive area is limited if it is to remain effective, and could ultimately serve as a constraining factor for the expansion of Empires, a border in a much more real sense that Eve is used to. Within that border it is possible, to keep "non-combatants" better protected, and more able to exploit the resources of the player Empire which they are part of.
Sure, ideally there would be better mechanics to enable this type of border, but until then are titan infested cyno jammed systems really the evil they are made out to be?
I don't have a problem with any alliance being able to create a meaningful defensive area, in fact I think it would make it possible to open up 0.0 more which would be great. Currently some alliances (basically the ones with lots of titans) have an advantage in this area, one which they have earned, but it isn't out of the reach of others if they also wish to invest in it. I'd be happier with an alternative mechanic, maybe less scaleable but also less costly (in terms of both ISK and time), but is the current situation really so undesireable?
Is it not more important to the future of Eve, and 0.0 specifically, that players can build more meaningful, more defensable, more stable Empires? Defineable borders, with increasing cost (again ISK and time/logistics) as they expand, would lead to Alliances claiming a volume of space more in line with their ability to sustain it, and conflict between Empires would revolve around expansion rather than plain aggression.
Maybe ultimately this isn't the way to go about it, but it is a start. Some great Empires have fallen for the want of defensible borders, and that is a shame. I am sure ASCN would still be here today if building Empires had some sort of meaningful game mechanics to support it.
actually one of the best posts on the eve-o forums for a long time and very spot on
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Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.11 15:21:00 -
[155]
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Since Eve is not a job but a game, I will argue that that makes it unlike a real siege and makes it easier for defenders. And the cause is that multiple titans in a defended system makes it possible for a far smaller group of defenders to hold a vast attacking force at bay without any need for skill or PvP to maintain. So if you have enough isk and enough people you can put in a titan to defend 23/7, defence becomes unbalanced.
No, it is a return on investment, EXACTLY like a castle.
I see now that you do *get* castles, you just don't like them.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.03.11 15:36:00 -
[156]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Since Eve is not a job but a game, I will argue that that makes it unlike a real siege and makes it easier for defenders. And the cause is that multiple titans in a defended system makes it possible for a far smaller group of defenders to hold a vast attacking force at bay without any need for skill or PvP to maintain. So if you have enough isk and enough people you can put in a titan to defend 23/7, defence becomes unbalanced.
No, it is a return on investment, EXACTLY like a castle.
I see now that you do *get* castles, you just don't like them.
Oh, I certainly get castles.
I don't get how this is supposed to be remotely fun though, an impregnable fortress which noone is gonna attack in the end.
Maybe that is your kind of fun soon. Sitting in Delve under your cynojammers giggling about how you held off the Coalition while its in fact titans and cynojammers doing all the work for you. Then wondering wtf you're gonna do next as noone is gonna attack you inside. Or when they attack they bring 600 people and keep you locked out of your system until it loses sov 3. WOW, that is gonna be so much fun!
I get castles alright, I don't get how these kinds of castles will be good for the game in the long run. Either an attacker brings an overwhelming force and completely locks you out to beat you (a la EC-) or they won't show up at all. Yay, what fun. I'm just glad I'm out of the territorial warfare game, cause that certainly doesn't sound like fun to me.
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Saori Rei
Gallente Garoun Investment Bank
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Posted - 2008.03.11 15:40:00 -
[157]
I'll be honest. I hate titans completely and absolutely. Took some time for me to get used to capitals but titans just take the cake. I don't think any one player should have that powerful a ship. And I trully dread seeing multiples of these being fielded at a time. When that happens we can basically kiss goodbye any use of cruiser and below sized ships in any alliance warfare... heck I bet even some battleships can't take the heat. Add lag and the fact that running away from a titan when lag is about is impossible doesn't help the situation.
The concept is ok, I'd even say great. A massive logistics ship than move fleets about and carry alot of stuff. I just don't like the implementation of it. I would have prefered the Titan to be harder to kill rather than have that stupid DD weapon. If titans were to vanish from the game I wouldn't blink an eye lid. But I'd expect some serious recompense for those that could pilot them and for the alliances that have them.
But that won't happen so the best I can hope for is the titan to be reworked.
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ry ry
StateCorp Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.11 15:52:00 -
[158]
perhaps less homogenisation of titans. instead of them all being DDing, tanking, logistics monsters they each had a niche role. Signature removed. Too large and flashing signatures are not really permitted. Navigator |
Virida
Mindstar Technology The Kano Organisation
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Posted - 2008.03.11 16:01:00 -
[159]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Since Eve is not a job but a game, I will argue that that makes it unlike a real siege and makes it easier for defenders. And the cause is that multiple titans in a defended system makes it possible for a far smaller group of defenders to hold a vast attacking force at bay without any need for skill or PvP to maintain. So if you have enough isk and enough people you can put in a titan to defend 23/7, defence becomes unbalanced.
No, it is a return on investment, EXACTLY like a castle.
I see now that you do *get* castles, you just don't like them.
Sieges on castles is one thing, seeing people buying titans for pure lolz, to use as logistics ship and to own a end game ship, is something else. In 1 year, where wil morus mihi be, where will bob be, ra, ev0ke or roadkill, or mc?
Personally ive been blue to titan alliances a LONG while now, and id be as happy as first poster to see the ships gone totally, if they cant work in a role fitting EVE.
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Hitme Harder
HERRO KITTY
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Posted - 2008.03.11 16:08:00 -
[160]
Getting slightly back on topic.
Originally by: CCP Whisper If there are three of them(titans) flying together this just seems like a good target to throw a lot of resources at.
Its hard to take this comment seriously without flaming the S out of you. Really I don't even know what to say. Your proposal is less rational than a typical theorycrafted idea for defeating pre-nerf titans, and far more vague.
/flame-on I would ask what you're basing your idea on, but as we all know, it is without precedent. I'm beginning to believe what other people are saying about eve design philosophy, that stuff is just added and observed, to see if it turns out alright.
Back to work, enough free design tips from me.
AREN'T THEY ADORABLE? |
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Korizan
Oort Cloud Industries
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Posted - 2008.03.11 16:16:00 -
[161]
I find nothing wrong with an alliance being able to entrench themselves in one constellation. This provides a bit a stability for 0.0
It goes back to the point of why build stations or even defend a territory if someone can come in on a off peak hours and totally wipe out something you spent several months building.
In some regards Titans have been nerfed (in a indirect manner)so much right now they really don't have much else to do but use there DD's Between cyno bridges / Jump Freighters / 0.0 Stations their choices of things to do have gone down to 0. Alliances spend huge amounts of time and ISK to build them. And as they appear right now to have no other purpose , So alliances have decided why not just use them in PvP. It is not as if there is a trade off anymore.
So I have to agree it is really not about Titans per say (at least not completely). It is more about the way 0.0 has changed.
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Soulita
Gallente Inner Core
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Posted - 2008.03.11 18:16:00 -
[162]
Edited by: Soulita on 11/03/2008 18:18:52
Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr One click to destroy as many people that can fit on the grid in a computer game is wrong.
That is basically it. Yes, CCP whisper is right that a single DD can be tanked, maybe even a double DD. But that is somewhat besides the point.
I play other online games besides EVE, and whatever game it is I play, l33t weapons tend to be a spoiler to the fun of most.
In other words, lots of people do whatever they might do, then someone comes and drops an atomic bomb on them. Sucks, doesn't it?
Of course super weapons in games can be justified by many a ways to argue, but it is more of a question in principle.
Is a superweapon in a videogame good for the game? Does it help in making the game fun for the people playing it?
To me the concept of the titan with its super weapon remains flawed.
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Thorek Ironbrow
Ironbrow Industries Co. Soldiers of the Forgotten Abyss
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Posted - 2008.03.11 18:28:00 -
[163]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Soulita Edited by: Soulita on 10/03/2008 16:09:15
As the title says. The end of the doomsday and the flying station.
Full isk reimbursement for the Titan pilots. Skillpoints formerly used for the Titan can be freely reassigned.
One can dream, and I would love to see this happen.
Why?
Seconded, Why? It's not like their solo-pwn mobiles. _____________________________ "So what do you need, besides a miracle?"
"Guns... Lots of guns" |
Thorek Ironbrow
Ironbrow Industries Co. Soldiers of the Forgotten Abyss
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Posted - 2008.03.11 18:31:00 -
[164]
Originally by: Homer v2 I see a lot of people complaining about titans lately...
I read in a Jihadswarm thread, apparently it's to do with Goonswarm trying to get Titans removed because BoB pwned them or something. _____________________________ "So what do you need, besides a miracle?"
"Guns... Lots of guns" |
Thorek Ironbrow
Ironbrow Industries Co. Soldiers of the Forgotten Abyss
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Posted - 2008.03.11 18:45:00 -
[165]
Originally by: Dirk Magnum
Besides, the DDD can't kill Dreads outright, and if you're going to kill a Titan whose pilot is logged in you're going to want Dreadnought support.
You'd probably want your own Titans aswell. _____________________________ "So what do you need, besides a miracle?"
"Guns... Lots of guns" |
Thorek Ironbrow
Ironbrow Industries Co. Soldiers of the Forgotten Abyss
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Posted - 2008.03.11 18:57:00 -
[166]
Originally by: Soulita
I play other online games besides EVE, and whatever game it is I play, l33t weapons tend to be a spoiler to the fun of most. ... To me the concept of the titan with its super weapon remains flawed.
Like the AWP in CSS. But yeah, I see now where peoples arguments are coming from, and I also think the Titan needs to be reworked (not removed). I'd say basically swap out the DDD for a more powerful version of the siege module, give them better tanking ability (as such that you'd need a fleet of Dreanoughts to take one down) but make it so that they need a Fleet or they cannot operate in some way.
Not my usualy creativity level, but I think swapping out the DDD for a powerful Siege module is perhaps the best thing that could happen for anyone (except the guy getting locked). _____________________________ "So what do you need, besides a miracle?"
"Guns... Lots of guns" |
Demtalin le'Mercennaire
The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.03.27 15:04:00 -
[167]
Originally by: Morrow Disca Penguins.
Not a fan myself.
Discuss.
You win the thread -------- Billy Jean is not my lover |
Attrezzo Pox
Corp 1 Allstars Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.27 15:38:00 -
[168]
Originally by: Morrow Disca Penguins.
Not a fan myself.
Discuss.
CCP we need seals to kill the penguins.
Titans.... oh titans how you vex me. I don't know why. But you do. I can't wait to fight in a titan fleet op. 100+ titans hot dropping on another titan fleet and let the doomsdays fly. I wonder how many titans it would take to break eve permanently. If there was a strange exploit or buffer overflow in one of the damage calculations and letting so and so many doomsdays off would just start writing random data into the eve database... forever.
I think to make titans better the doomsday device should be worked on. Here's the idea. Every system be controlled by a different piece of physical hardware (even though they'd still all be basically clustered together). Then when a doomsday was set off in a particular system it would trigger a small bomb located near the proc/ram of that system's server. pzzwwnd. That would be ub3r.
Get to work on it CCP. *-------------------------* This is not a good sig. |
Khandara Seraphim
StarHunt Fallout Project
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Posted - 2008.03.27 16:18:00 -
[169]
Originally by: CCP Whisper I was wondering how long it would take for this thread to remind me why I usually stay out of General Discussion. Thanks!
I can't believe this is CCP's last response in the thread, especially when there were a few valid responses brought up. While I personally don't mind titans too much atm, I can see the arguments that many have posted about why current server technology and gameplay mechanics make it extremely difficult to coordinate the type of fleet required to bring down a gang of 5 or 6 titans. I'm surprised CCP decided to take a shot at one of the admittedly dumber posts and completely ignore the ones that actually could have a point...
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Miss CJB
In White Suits Elite Trade Group
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Posted - 2008.03.27 16:22:00 -
[170]
Edited by: Miss CJB on 27/03/2008 16:25:30 Edited by: Miss CJB on 27/03/2008 16:24:19 i believe the problem with cap ships is that they are too cheap, for what they can do. its not hard to aford a carour if you put your mind to it, most ppl have a bill or so in there wallet these days. they are becomeing abit to common place.
changes i would sujest -
doulbe the mineral requirments for all cap ships except dreads (killing pos's is bad enough as it is and they are prity useless for anything else). mabey slight increase in freighter cargosize to compensate.
make the DD take into account sig radious & velocity, so a specificilly tanked frig can survive it. (where as only specificly tanked hacs/hics/command ships/BS can atm)
some nerf to reduce the effect of multipl DD being fired sibultanously on the same grid.
rethink cyno jammers. defenders should get bonuses to defending, but i think cyno jammers are a bit to overpowered.
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Avon
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.27 16:27:00 -
[171]
Originally by: Miss CJB
make the DD take into account sig radious & velocity, so a specificilly tanked frig can survive it. (where as only specificly tanked hacs/hics/command ships/BS can atm)
Why? There isn't a frigate in the game which can't align and warp between seeing the DD start and the damage being applied.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Deva Blackfire
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.27 19:31:00 -
[172]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Miss CJB
make the DD take into account sig radious & velocity, so a specificilly tanked frig can survive it. (where as only specificly tanked hacs/hics/command ships/BS can atm)
Why? There isn't a frigate in the game which can't align and warp between seeing the DD start and the damage being applied.
Any frig with 200+ local will be dead when it sees DD gfx loading. Why? lag = no warping off. Buh bye.
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Johli
AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.03.27 20:00:00 -
[173]
It's called a Doomsday Device. Why would you make a weapon that can only be fitted on the most expensive and largest ship in the game unable to kill a frigate? If an alliance can afford the time to build one, along with the minerals, parts and training, they deserve to have one.
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Ephemeron
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.27 20:09:00 -
[174]
Originally by: CCP Whisper
Originally by: Malachon Draco To add, I wouldn't nerf the titan itself. I would remove all the BPOs though (and reimburse the owners) to make sure no new ones go into build ever again. Let the current ones be the legacy of a monumentally stupid decision in gamedesign by CCP until they die out from attrition.
I was wondering how long it would take for this thread to remind me why I usually stay out of General Discussion. Thanks!
CCP Whisper, your voice of reason is badly needed in the 21 page thread on the "getting rid of nanoships"
Even if you support views that I don't support, I'll have the decency not to make cynical remarks in your direction.
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Ephemeron
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.27 20:13:00 -
[175]
Originally by: Khandara Seraphim
Originally by: CCP Whisper I was wondering how long it would take for this thread to remind me why I usually stay out of General Discussion. Thanks!
I can't believe this is CCP's last response in the thread, especially when there were a few valid responses brought up. While I personally don't mind titans too much atm, I can see the arguments that many have posted about why current server technology and gameplay mechanics make it extremely difficult to coordinate the type of fleet required to bring down a gang of 5 or 6 titans. I'm surprised CCP decided to take a shot at one of the admittedly dumber posts and completely ignore the ones that actually could have a point...
I'd rather have human devs than some godly overloads that advocate love and peace for your fellow player.
Personally I'd enjoy seeing one of them strangle some of those dumber players with their bare hands.
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Ethen Bejorn
Pestilent Industries Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.03.27 20:21:00 -
[176]
Jump bridges and titans have ruined this game for newer players not wanting to join age old corporations and alliances and instead attempting to start their own and carve out a small piece of 0.0 for themselves. We have no place in this game and it is getting less and less fun by the day to even bother trying. These old alliances have hundreds of tech 2 BPOs, billions in assets, titans, hundreds of POSes and there is absolutely no way a small newer group of players can even think about moving out to 0.0. This has got to change. 0.0 needs to be a viable option for everyone, not just huge blobs led by a handful of 5 year old characters.
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Ephemeron
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.27 20:41:00 -
[177]
Edited by: Ephemeron on 27/03/2008 20:41:06
Originally by: Ethen Bejorn Jump bridges and titans have ruined this game for newer players not wanting to join age old corporations and alliances and instead attempting to start their own and carve out a small piece of 0.0 for themselves. We have no place in this game and it is getting less and less fun by the day to even bother trying. These old alliances have hundreds of tech 2 BPOs, billions in assets, titans, hundreds of POSes and there is absolutely no way a small newer group of players can even think about moving out to 0.0. This has got to change. 0.0 needs to be a viable option for everyone, not just huge blobs led by a handful of 5 year old characters.
I understand there is a bit of a problem with regards to newer players making space for themselves.
I think the best solution would be not to nerf titans, but to redesign the way low sec space works. Titans can't DDD in low sec. Big alliances aren't interested in low sec. Low sec can be changed to make it worthwhile for new corps to have partial space ownership. Many possibilities here and no need to nerf titans.
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Kerfira
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.03.27 21:49:00 -
[178]
Originally by: Ethen Bejorn Jump bridges and titans have ruined this game for newer players not wanting to join age old corporations and alliances and instead attempting to start their own and carve out a small piece of 0.0 for themselves. We have no place in this game and it is getting less and less fun by the day to even bother trying. These old alliances have hundreds of tech 2 BPOs, billions in assets, titans, hundreds of POSes and there is absolutely no way a small newer group of players can even think about moving out to 0.0. This has got to change. 0.0 needs to be a viable option for everyone, not just huge blobs led by a handful of 5 year old characters.
Translation of above: "Buhu, wah! I want what everyone else has worked years for, but I don't want to work! Give me! Now!!!"
EVE rewards players for staying. It's not a "join for a few weeks and reach level 60" game!
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Seti Luban
Garoun Investment Bank
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Posted - 2008.03.27 21:52:00 -
[179]
^ agreed
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