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DaRiKavus
Expendable Asset's
10
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Posted - 2012.02.20 22:15:00 -
[1] - Quote
Am I missing something glaringly obvious when it comes to Command ships here chaps.
Field Command Ships to be specific.
Yes, the Nighthawk can field some DPS and a nice active tank but with all the neut nano canes that are likely to be about as well as every man and his dog fitting a heavy neut to a BS then the NH becomes a glorified Drake IMHO.
The Absolution is a pretty meh ship in the first place. I can get more speed and DPS out of a Cane and an Abso only has about 3k more ehp. I can field a HAM drake that has 25k ehp more, 80 dps less, is faster and can use a mid slot for TP or TD. Abso has three mids !!!
Sleipnir is a nice ship and if you like flying active Cyclones you are going to enjoy the extra cap, rep and dps that a Sleipnir offers. But it still has some glaring weaknesses and could be kited by a Nano Harby of all things.
Astarte is another ship that has some nice stats (I do admit to having never flown or fought one though) and working from tried and tested Brutix fits it seems to be fairly powerful in the right situation.
After several minutes of staring and re-reading of this post as well as some EFT fiddling (Shocking I know) and thinking about fights I have been involved in where CS have been present I am still at a loss as to exactly what the advantages of having one in my gang would be.
Every Tech II ship I have come across have been real force multipliers with the ablility to swing the fight in your favour. Recons, Logi, HICS, Black Ops to name a few.
Why is it that EAF and CS seem so horribly botched ?
Is this something that has happened in the years since their design or are they inherently pants and just not that well used ?
I am chatting s**t and they are actually epic (fingers crossed)
Darik 07
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Mike712
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
37
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Posted - 2012.02.20 22:28:00 -
[2] - Quote
Field CS just got surpassed when strategic cruisers became available.
They're still good ships, but T3s are better.
Regards, Mike712 The BattleClinic Team
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
841
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Posted - 2012.02.20 22:33:00 -
[3] - Quote
I really like Command Ships. They tank like a boss and put out pretty wild DPS. I think that a lot of the advantages a field command brings to the table aren't noticeable as your gang size scales up into blob territory. Also, being hit by an Astarte is something that must be experienced to be believed.
So much DPS.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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mxzf
Shovel Bros
711
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Posted - 2012.02.20 23:08:00 -
[4] - Quote
There's a proposal to buff the NH up to par with the rest of the CSes: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Boost_Nighthawk_%28CSM%29
In general, they seem to be ok; though, as Mike said, they're overshadowed by T3s in many areas. |
DaRiKavus
Expendable Asset's
10
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Posted - 2012.02.20 23:09:00 -
[5] - Quote
So basically you are saying that there are beneficial in small gang engagements, where they are able to apply a wedge of dps quickly, due to their higher base speed than compared to say a BS.
Totally ignoring strats and Tier 3 BC as they are a totally different kettle of fish IMHO,
I still have my reservations about them though and have yet to hear a convincing argument for their relatively high preqs and cost. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
841
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Posted - 2012.02.20 23:27:00 -
[6] - Quote
DaRiKavus wrote:So basically you are saying that there are beneficial in small gang engagements, where they are able to apply a wedge of dps quickly, due to their higher base speed than compared to say a BS.
Totally ignoring strats and Tier 3 BC as they are a totally different kettle of fish IMHO,
I still have my reservations about them though and have yet to hear a convincing argument for their relatively high preqs and cost.
Don't take anyone else's word for it. Log onto Sisi and Pew Pew some bitches.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Pulgy
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
45
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Posted - 2012.02.20 23:51:00 -
[7] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote: Also, being hit by an Astarte is something that must be experienced to be believed.
This. Astarte is a **** machine on steroids.
Monkeys writing-á Shakespeare? That's like putting CCP in charge of game balance and content updates. |
river Zateki
The Elysian Agoge Elysian Empire
17
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Posted - 2012.02.21 00:46:00 -
[8] - Quote
just Buff NH fitting, give t3s a 3% per lvl to gang links and CS a 5% per lvl, and maybe give all of the CS an extra slot? At the minimum maybe a third rig slot.(if they don't already have one, i havn't checked) |
Belthazor4011
Battle BV
13
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Posted - 2012.02.21 00:50:00 -
[9] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:I really like Command Ships. They tank like a boss and put out pretty wild DPS. I think that a lot of the advantages a field command brings to the table aren't noticeable as your gang size scales up into blob territory. Also, being hit by an Astarte is something that must be experienced to be believed.
So much DPS.
-Liang
I am actually looking at getting an Astarte, the DPS on paper (EFT) is by no means low but what makes it so good? I mean I know many (battle)ships that put out more DPS. Is it the application of the DPS because they are only med blasters that makes it so good?
Please let me know... |
Nalha Saldana
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
121
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Posted - 2012.02.21 00:53:00 -
[10] - Quote
river Zateki wrote:just Buff NH fitting, give t3s a 3% per lvl to gang links and CS a 5% per lvl, and maybe give all of the CS an extra slot? At the minimum maybe a third rig slot.(if they don't already have one, i havn't checked)
All T2 ships have only 2 rig slots, doesnt make sense to change that here. |
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Silas Shaw
Coffee Hub
10
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Posted - 2012.02.21 01:10:00 -
[11] - Quote
Nalha Saldana wrote:river Zateki wrote:just Buff NH fitting, give t3s a 3% per lvl to gang links and CS a 5% per lvl, and maybe give all of the CS an extra slot? At the minimum maybe a third rig slot.(if they don't already have one, i havn't checked) All T2 ships have only 2 rig slots, doesnt make sense to change that here.
I think that having the fleet commands switch their boost amount with t3s (3% to 5%) would go a long way to making them used. the field commands... I'm not sure that there is really a problem with them. the NH has a ton of tank and damage projection, the Abso is a pocket BS with a huge set of RR loving resists, the Sleipnir is a small gang monster, and the Astarte is what all blaster ships not named Vindicator want to be when they grow up. |
Jack Miton
Lapse Of Sanity Exhale.
123
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Posted - 2012.02.21 01:19:00 -
[12] - Quote
Absolution not good?!?!?!?! What are you high? It's by FAR the best combat CS.
Sleipnir is also god damn awesome for both solo and gang, Astarte is a bit lacking in tank but has wtfbbq dps. Nighthawk is the only one that really is quite bad. |
Jerick Ludhowe
The Scope Gallente Federation
45
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Posted - 2012.02.21 01:56:00 -
[13] - Quote
All of the Field Commands other than maybe the Sleipnir need another "Tanking" slot. +1 low for Abso, +1 low for Astarte, and +1 mid for nighthawk.
There is no reason tier 2 bcs should have more total slots than the only t2 Combat Oriented Bcs....
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Ryder 3vyn
State Navy
7
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Posted - 2012.02.21 02:55:00 -
[14] - Quote
[lol100mn NightHawk] Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System x3 Reactor Control Unit II x2
Core X-Type 100MN Afterburner Domination Warp Disruptor Federation Navy Stasis Webifier Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800 Gist X-Type large Shield Booster
Heavy Missile Launcher II x6 Small Energy Neutralizer
Medium Ancillary Current Router II x2
Hobgoblin II x5
But seriously, definitely give them each another slot {except the Sleipnir maybe} and give the Nighthawk more powergrid. |
Red Teufel
Blackened Skies THE UNTHINKABLES
40
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Posted - 2012.02.21 04:02:00 -
[15] - Quote
a fleet with 4-6 CS fit for killing. I would bring a BS gang out with logistics to take that on. that's some wild dps that's about to rain down. |
Jodie Amille
Rape of Virtue
6
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Posted - 2012.02.21 05:44:00 -
[16] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:I really like Command Ships. They tank like a boss and put out pretty wild DPS. I think that a lot of the advantages a field command brings to the table aren't noticeable as your gang size scales up into blob territory. Also, being hit by an Astarte is something that must be experienced to be believed.
So much DPS.
-Liang
Would you mind posting your fit, Liang? I've looked at it time and again and I have a very hard time justifying the price tag for it. All three types of tanking seem very thin for a 180-200m ISK ship and while you are putting out some very sexy dps, that dps is 0 is you've done exploded in the first 60 seconds of a fight
This is the fit I'm looking at. The dps is indeed sexy, but the tank is very underwhelming and 480 dps with exile and no heat or gangboost. If the deadspace armor mod is more expensive that 40-50m I'd just use a t2 hardener.
[Astarte, Dual Rep] Centum A-Type Energized Reactive Membrane Medium Armor Repairer II Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Medium Armor Repairer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
10MN MicroWarpdrive II Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800 Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I Medium Nanobot Accelerator I
Warrior II x5 Hornet EC-300 x5
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King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
212
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Posted - 2012.02.21 06:21:00 -
[17] - Quote
CS's are nice in the right fleets. I love the abso, so much tank with very solid dps. Now when I say tank, I don't mean pure buffer, it only has about 200k EHP with a slave set and legion boosts. That's not very impressive when talking about BS's which is where its price tag is. What it does have is crazy high resists so with guardians/carriers on the field, it's virtually indestructible unless you can alpha it. And it does far more dps than an armor cane at greater range. The only ship you can really compare it to fairly is the legion and in that case, the abso does more dps while the legion has more range. Tank wise they are more or less even in both buffer and resistances. Similar comparisons can be made with the other CS's. They aren't the jack of all trades ships the tech 1 BC's are.
Hans Jagerblitzen for CSM7 |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
847
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Posted - 2012.02.21 06:31:00 -
[18] - Quote
Jodie Amille wrote:Would you mind posting your fit, Liang?
This is the one I was specifically looking at:
[Astarte, Ion/Rep] Medium Armor Repairer II Medium Armor Repairer II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800 Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Hammerhead II x5
I feel the tank is a bit light - only 480 DPS overheated. The reality is that I'd actually shield tank it just like I do my Brutix.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Darthewok
Perkone Caldari State
11
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Posted - 2012.02.21 07:38:00 -
[19] - Quote
CS are too expensive. Cut their material requirements or increase their insurance. CAVEAT RICARDO VOLVIS - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0 |
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
72
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Posted - 2012.02.21 07:56:00 -
[20] - Quote
Darthewok wrote:CS are too expensive. Cut their material requirements or increase their insurance. Insurance goes by material requirements. Cut those and you cut insurance as well. |
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Mechael
Team Pizza Viro Mors Non Est
39
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Posted - 2012.02.21 08:05:00 -
[21] - Quote
Make it so that leadership boosts only apply when on grid. Problem solved. I'd rather die in battle against a man who will lie to me, than for a man who will lie to me. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
849
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Posted - 2012.02.21 08:07:00 -
[22] - Quote
Mechael wrote:Make it so that leadership boosts only apply when on grid. Problem solved.
Not really, causes more problems than it "solves".
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
212
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Posted - 2012.02.21 10:10:00 -
[23] - Quote
The problem with gang links and CS's as said in other threads is that the t3 and fleet CS link bonuses need to be reversed. Other than that, it's fine. But this discussion is mostly on field CS's which do not have any gang link bonuses other than the "can fit gang links" bonus which is on t1 BC's as well.
Hans Jagerblitzen for CSM7 |
Mechael
Team Pizza Viro Mors Non Est
39
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Posted - 2012.02.21 10:24:00 -
[24] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Not really, causes more problems than it "solves".
-Liang
Not aware of what problems this might cause, unless maybe you're talking about some sort of difficulty in getting the code to work. I'd rather die in battle against a man who will lie to me, than for a man who will lie to me. |
Jodie Amille
Rape of Virtue
6
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Posted - 2012.02.21 10:38:00 -
[25] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:
I feel the tank is a bit light - only 480 DPS overheated. The reality is that I'd actually shield tank it just like I do my Brutix.
-Liang
Surely with the meager 55-60k ehp this has the myrm or brutix are far more reasonable dps solutions. Unless you're flying with a logi I guess |
Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
38
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Posted - 2012.02.21 10:45:00 -
[26] - Quote
Yeah flying with logi really boosts the field commands, mainly due to the higher resist profile. I know snuff box have had great success with absolution/gaurdian gangs. As for the ships themselves its only really the Nighthawk and maybe the Astarte that needs a boost, the Sleipner and the Absolution are absolutely fine the way they are. |
Jodie Amille
Rape of Virtue
6
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Posted - 2012.02.21 10:47:00 -
[27] - Quote
Mechael wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Not really, causes more problems than it "solves".
-Liang Not aware of what problems this might cause, unless maybe you're talking about some sort of difficulty in getting the code to work.
The main problem I see with it is it will limit even further the ability for smaller groups to skirmish against larger ones. Unless you have significant amount of logi, no fleet-boost will remain on grid for a very long time. This holds especially true for skirmish gangs since there isn't really a sufficiently fast/agile platform to run the links on that can keep up with the gang and react to the changing battlefield.
The claymore is more tanky than speedy and the loki can be either fast(though not as fast as a vaga) or agile, but not bost and certainly not with a tank.
So IMO the net reduction is that while you might see less fleet boosting overall, there will be less fights since as soon as one side can field the ganglinks the other with either dock or run away(this already happens) and bigger gangs involving more logi to safeguard their precious shinies and boosties. |
Jerick Ludhowe
The Scope Gallente Federation
45
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Posted - 2012.02.21 16:41:00 -
[28] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Jodie Amille wrote:Would you mind posting your fit, Liang? This is the one I was specifically looking at: [Astarte, Ion/Rep] Medium Armor Repairer II Medium Armor Repairer II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800 Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I Hammerhead II x5 I feel the tank is a bit light - only 480 DPS overheated. The reality is that I'd actually shield tank it just like I do my Brutix. -Liang
I'd suggest dropping one of the Mag stabs in favor of either an active explosive hardener or a corpum c-a type energized reactive. Also get yourself a 2% grid implant (cheap) to get rid of that Ion as well as a 5% med hybrid implant (cheap) and some exile boosters.
Either way I feel that most people will be disappointed in the performance of Field Commands. They suffer from one of the smallest increases in performance between tech 1 and tech 2 as well as having heavily nerfed t2 resistances. If anyone cares to look you will notice that Field CS have 1 or 2 fewer total slots than tech 1 tier 2 BCs (I count rigs as slots), this is rather unique when looking at tech 1 to tech 2 progression of combat focused ships. Factor in the Cost of the hulls and the x8 dead end Command ship skill and the return for time/isk invested is very underwhelming. You're better off training t3s if you want to boost, or BS if you want to brawl. Hell, t3s are better combat ships than field commands in most cases.
As for the whole "logi plus Field Command" idea. Hacs do this far better due to higher resists, much higher speeds, and much lower sigs. You're fleets tank will be much smaller With FCS when compared to HACs.
So... To sum up my suggestions yet again on the matter...
Astarte +1 low and maybe a small sig reduction (-20?) Absolution +1 low Nighthawk +1 mid +150ish grid
I'd also highly suggest that Field Commands be given the full tech 2 resists that their Fleet Command siblings have as well as every other t2 combat oriented ship other than Marauders.
Let me know what you guys think about these proposed changes. |
M1k3y Koontz
Taxes Suck Inc.
1
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Posted - 2012.02.21 20:08:00 -
[29] - Quote
Ryder 3vyn wrote:[lol100mn NightHawk] Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System x3 Reactor Control Unit II x2
Core X-Type 100MN Afterburner Domination Warp Disruptor Federation Navy Stasis Webifier Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800 Gist X-Type large Shield Booster
Heavy Missile Launcher II x6 Small Energy Neutralizer
Medium Ancillary Current Router II x2
Hobgoblin II x5
*Gives fit weird look* that a tengu? |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
851
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Posted - 2012.02.21 20:18:00 -
[30] - Quote
Jerick Ludhowe wrote: I'd suggest dropping one of the Mag stabs in favor of either an active explosive hardener or a corpum c-a type energized reactive. Also get yourself a 2% grid implant (cheap) to get rid of that Ion as well as a 5% med hybrid implant (cheap) and some exile boosters.
You can of course spend Slot 6 on a fitting implant, but I like leaving it open for pirate implants. The suggestion for an explosive hardener is totally legit, but really the tank on its pretty small to start with. I agree though - a real active tank is going to require dropping down to 1 MFS which really hurts your DPS (at least, more than I'd really want). Solid fitting suggestions though. :)
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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