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Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.11 16:08:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 11/03/2008 16:08:34
Originally by: Riaz Qaadir I have amarr BS 4 but not got t2 large weapons yet thanks, and done more than "heard it", i've helped test its performance and when your at 125km+ its tracking is real and totally outclasses the HAC anti-support snipers.
How about YOU do the math, i've clearly stated real setups and the accurate stats. If you can't work out how tracking factor = ((transversal / (range * turret tracking)) * (turret sig res / sig rad)) ^ 2 works thats not my problem.
Heres an example, if you think sig/transversal isn't realistic then try it yourself because it doesn't change that trend.
Look. I will make this simple for you.
Play Real eve and stop attending Theory classes. I hear the Rokh has obsoleted every other sniper accoring to your theory.
And I doubt anyone is going to be convinced that a 400 sig megapulse gun at 120km can out track a Hac sniper shooting at also the same range. Also add in lock time, mobility etc. Come back once you have train up Large Pulse Spec, since till then, you havent a clue what you are talking about tracking. Also come back after you win a fleet fight vs a competent opponent with "100-120km snipers". --
Billion Isk Mission |
Wu Jiun
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Posted - 2008.03.11 16:16:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Lord WarATron
Look. I will make this simple for you.
Play Real eve and stop attending Theory classes. I hear the Rokh has obsoleted every other sniper accoring to your theory.
And I doubt anyone is going to be convinced that a 400 sig megapulse gun at 120km can out track a Hac sniper shooting at also the same range. Also add in lock time, mobility etc. Come back once you have train up Large Pulse Spec, since till then, you havent a clue what you are talking about tracking. Also come back after you win a fleet fight vs a competent opponent with "100-120km snipers".
^^ This. Apoc with 125km pulses is a pure freak show. Its not useful out of very specific circumstances that will most likely never ocurr. And dude that 220km apoc the guy is quoting didn't have an ONEIROS next to it, no?
In small gang pvp such a ship is going to die in seconds. Really i'd be thankful if my enemy brings those instead of trimarked geddons or abaddons only my enemies are competent enough to avoid such a failure.
As a sniper it lacks range to begin with. So what are we actually talking about here? First its the apoc with beams thats omgwtfoverpowered and now with pulses. You guys will never be content unless it gets its old bonuses back. Because unlike what people tend to say competition is bad for business, right?
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Deva Blackfire
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.11 16:23:00 -
[33]
Also if you look closely: mister theorycraft warrior uses T2 AMMO in muninn = stupidity.
Small hint: both eagle and muninn on Tranquility (yes thats the "real" server not Sisi) use ... FACTION ammo for pvp. Why? Because of... gasp: TRACKING.
Now you can multiple both tracking numbers by 4 and see how it works in real game.
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Riaz Qaadir
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Posted - 2008.03.11 16:25:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Lord WarATron Look. I will make this simple for you.
Play Real eve and stop attending Theory classes. I hear the Rokh has obsoleted every other sniper accoring to your theory.
And I doubt anyone is going to be convinced that a 400 sig megapulse gun at 120km can out track a Hac sniper shooting at also the same range. Also add in lock time, mobility etc. Come back once you have train up Large Pulse Spec, since till then, you havent a clue what you are talking about tracking. Also come back after you win a fleet fight vs a competent opponent with "100-120km snipers".
I'll make this simple for you, attend maths lessons because CCP have confirmed that formula is accurate, so if you don't believe the formulas that EVE uses thats your problem. What would it take to convince you? Because you seem very "my opinion with no proof is worth more than your opinion and proof".
My other account (not active atm) is nearly 40m SP char so I know fine well about tracking and such. But when I post with him I get "you arn't amarr so shut up cos your biased" comments so I use this amarr char and I get "train skills noob!" comments instead. Argue the points because "i'm right and your wrong" arguement are just rubbish.
My theory? Rokh only offers more range (with some tank) compared to other snipers, they at least offer more alpha/track/dps, people cried about the range, this is all factors.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.11 16:36:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Riaz Qaadir
Congrats, you also didn't attend maths lessons.
Its the same penalty for all ships, I didn't compare t1 vs t2, if remove that penalty of t2 and use t1 and OMG the balance is the same because it modifies everything the same way! (although muninn improves slightly due to better t1 long range ammo).
No it is you that fails.
1. Scorch is long range ammo for short range turrets wich is the best kind of T2 ammo.
2. Long range ammo for long range weapons sucks.
3. Your comparison is flawed in many ways
4. You fail at EFT warrioring
5. You fail at sisi warrioring
6. You fail eve.
7. Cancel your account please. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare |
Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.11 16:36:00 -
[36]
600-700 DPS at 100km is *NOT* a freakshow and nor is it useless - you just aren't applying the correct situational template. The reason that the Rokh hasn't wtfpwnd all other snipers is because there is no default 250km warp in point. There is a 100km warp in point.
Also, its relatively trivial to get a 140km optimal out of the 1.1 Apoc on EFT... which lends alot of credence towards the 220km pulse apoc (presumably using T2 rigs etc) that was referenced.
Now, I realize that EFT isn't perfect, and it isn't Eve, but it hasn't been wrong about my optimal range yet.
-Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance. |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.11 16:38:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Liang Nuren 600-700 DPS at 100km is *NOT* a freakshow and nor is it useless - you just aren't applying the correct situational template. The reason that the Rokh hasn't wtfpwnd all other snipers is because there is no default 250km warp in point. There is a 100km warp in point.
Also, its relatively trivial to get a 140km optimal out of the 1.1 Apoc on EFT... which lends alot of credence towards the 220km pulse apoc (presumably using T2 rigs etc) that was referenced.
Now, I realize that EFT isn't perfect, and it isn't Eve, but it hasn't been wrong about my optimal range yet.
-Liang
But maybe its better to blame the real villain instead? Its the non stacking range mods that are the problem, not the new bonuses on apoc. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare |
Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.11 16:38:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
1. Scorch is long range ammo for short range turrets wich is the best kind of T2 ammo.
2. Long range ammo for long range weapons sucks.
Just to trim the ad hominem from his post and ensure you get the point. And btw: QFT.
-Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance. |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.11 16:40:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
1. Scorch is long range ammo for short range turrets wich is the best kind of T2 ammo.
2. Long range ammo for long range weapons sucks.
Just to trim the ad hominem from his post and ensure you get the point. And btw: QFT.
-Liang
Exactly, the CORE problem is more that the only good T2 ammo is the long ranged short range turret ammo. 3/4 T2 ammo types need fixes. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare |
Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.11 16:40:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
But maybe its better to blame the real villain instead? Its the non stacking range mods that are the problem, not the new bonuses on apoc.
Yeah, thats where my biggest beef lies... but good DPS at 100km is not as useless as its being made out. :)
I think it'll make for a great fleet sniper (maybe the best?) once the patch hits, but I honestly am not jealous. FFS, my sniper BS of choice is the Tempest...
-Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance. |
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.11 16:43:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
But maybe its better to blame the real villain instead? Its the non stacking range mods that are the problem, not the new bonuses on apoc.
Yeah, thats where my biggest beef lies... but good DPS at 100km is not as useless as its being made out. :)
I think it'll make for a great fleet sniper (maybe the best?) once the patch hits, but I honestly am not jealous. FFS, my sniper BS of choice is the Tempest...
-Liang
Yes 100km dps isnt bad but the apoc is getting the same kind of bonus zealot gets. No one was complaining about 50km zealot pulses, why such a big fuss about the apoc bonus. The apoc has a choice now to fit pulses and dominate BS-mid range combat. Its fine. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare |
Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.11 16:44:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 11/03/2008 16:44:34
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Yes 100km dps isnt bad but the apoc is getting the same kind of bonus zealot gets. No one was complaining about 50km zealot pulses, why such a big fuss about the apoc bonus. The apoc has a choice now to fit pulses and dominate BS-mid range combat. Its fine.
I think what everyone is (rightly) worried about is the optimal range rig "bug" not being fixed for a few months.
-Liang
Ed: Because that really does make the Apoc OP. -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance. |
Thorek Ironbrow
Ironbrow Industries Co. Soldiers of the Forgotten Abyss
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Posted - 2008.03.11 16:45:00 -
[43]
Rails need a boost. _____________________________ "So what do you need, besides a miracle?"
"Guns... Lots of guns" |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.11 16:47:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Thorek Ironbrow Rails need a boost.
But that would overpower eagle even more -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare |
Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.11 16:47:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Thorek Ironbrow Rails need a boost.
WTF no? Arty plxkthx?! -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance. |
Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.11 16:48:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
But that would overpower eagle even more
You can't claim the Apoc is fine in one breath and the Eagle OP in another. ;-)
-Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance. |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.11 16:49:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
But that would overpower eagle even more
You can't claim the Apoc is fine in one breath and the Eagle OP in another. ;-)
-Liang
I said the bonuses on apoc are fine but the non stacking rigs not. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare |
Thorek Ironbrow
Ironbrow Industries Co. Soldiers of the Forgotten Abyss
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Posted - 2008.03.11 16:53:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Thorek Ironbrow Rails need a boost.
WTF no? Arty plxkthx?!
I wnt rty un rial buust mmkay? cos i lke rfl Minnie un arofl Dari shippieszaes mmmmm...kay? _____________________________ "So what do you need, besides a miracle?"
"Guns... Lots of guns" |
Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2008.03.11 16:59:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Riaz Qaadir Heres an example, if you think sig/transversal isn't realistic then try it yourself because it doesn't change that trend.
Am I missing something or did you not bother to rig the HACs but rigged the Apoc to "prove" your point?
Add rigs to the HACs to make up for the perceived short-comings and then see.
Also, while you're at it, setup a rigged Mega and Rokh and see how they compare.
Not saying you are right or wrong as I honestly have no clue but it does look like you are stacking the deck to "prove" your point.
-------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!" ------ |
Wu Jiun
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Posted - 2008.03.11 17:03:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Liang Nuren 600-700 DPS at 100km is *NOT* a freakshow and nor is it useless - you just aren't applying the correct situational template. The reason that the Rokh hasn't wtfpwnd all other snipers is because there is no default 250km warp in point. There is a 100km warp in point.
I told you yesterday that a scorch apoc does not do 600-700 dps. So how about you quote correct numbers to begin with?
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Also, its relatively trivial to get a 140km optimal out of the 1.1 Apoc on EFT...
I told you yesterday that i was on test and tried it out. 3 x tc 2 + optimal script, 3 x te 2 and 3 x optimal rig gave me 125km optimal. I have amarr battleship 5 but only sharpshooter 4. Give me your magical "trivial" (trivial != 9 slots + heavy pg penalty btw) 140km fit and i am gonna test it.
What eft says on this matter doesn't mean a whole lot. So unless you have more to offer or at least a fitting that i could check myself on the test server please stop running around quoting the wrong numbers out of the wrong context (-> think oneiros on that guys 220)
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Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.11 17:21:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 11/03/2008 17:22:24
Originally by: Wu Jiun trivial != 9 slots + heavy pg penalty btw
Triviality is a measure of difficulty. 3-4 HS, 3 TE's, and 3 optimal rigs is plenty trivial. Also, don't forget hardwirings... because people do use them. Alot.
Quote: What eft says on this matter doesn't mean a whole lot.
I started the conversation with this. Thanks for repeating me. :)
Quote: think oneiros on that guys 220
Which is an excellent point... I assumed it to merely be T2 rigs and such. Its actually funny because I bought an Ony last night and it still didn't click.
-Liang
Ed: FREAKING FINALLY. Eve-O kept eating my post... this is the third iteration of the post. The first two were far more detailed... but I kept getting eaten on the Eve-O proxies each not having me logged in. -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance. |
Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.11 17:26:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Liang Nuren 600-700 DPS at 100km is *NOT* a freakshow and nor is it useless - you just aren't applying the correct situational template. The reason that the Rokh hasn't wtfpwnd all other snipers is because there is no default 250km warp in point. There is a 100km warp in point.
Firstly, such a apoc does not do 600-700dps. Secondly, there is not default 150km warp point either, yet all the pvp fleet battles have people fighting at 150km+.
The issue is not the Warp distance option. Most fleet fights have people setup to warp to a covert ops to secure range and location. It is just as easy to get your battleships at 150km to the enemy as it is to get them at 250km to the enemy. The issue with the rokh is something else that we wont go into with this thread.
I cannot see why someone in a apoc would want 100-120km insted of 150km Range. Just because something can in theory is not a practical real reason why it should.
And I dont claim to be the master tactics expert either, but I have been in enough fleet fights to note that its just not viable due to todays current style of pvp. --
Billion Isk Mission |
Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.11 17:33:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Lord WarATron
And I dont claim to be the master tactics expert either, but I have been in enough fleet fights to note that its just not viable due to todays current style of pvp. 100km Snipers only work if they do the "mongol horse archer" tactic and the apoc is not fast enough nor locks targets fast enough to do that.
Sigh, there you go applying the wrong template to the battle. I'm not saying that there are going to be fleets of 120km pulse apocs out wtfpwning everyone. I'm much more expecting to see fleets of Tach apocs out wtfpwning everyone in fleet situations.
Lets be clear on this: not every situation that involves ranged battleships involves 250 man fleets. I am not referring at all to "fleet" combat in the traditional sense.
I am definitely not all that experienced with huge fleets the way you are, but I'm plenty experienced in "small" gang combat.
-Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance. |
Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.11 17:41:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Liang Nuren I am definitely not all that experienced with huge fleets the way you are, but I'm plenty experienced in "small" gang combat.
-Liang
Ok here is another question. Where would you beleive that a Pulse apoc setup for sniping be more viable for the player to use over another shiptype or shipclass? --
Billion Isk Mission |
Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.11 17:43:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Lord WarATron
Ok here is another question. Where would you beleive that a Pulse apoc setup for sniping be more viable for the player to use over another shiptype or shipclass?
It will be a more effective sniper in any situation where you don't have recon pilots giving you 150-200km warpin points... such as roaming lowsec gangs.
Lowsec gangs are nice because all those nano ships that you fear do not operate on gates.
-Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance. |
Scout McAlt
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Posted - 2008.03.11 17:46:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Scout McAlt on 11/03/2008 17:48:00
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Lowsec gangs are nice because all those nano ships that you fear do not operate on gates.
-Liang
Gates have 150km sentry range, can the apoc tank this in a 120km sniper setup?
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Wu Jiun
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Posted - 2008.03.11 17:46:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Triviality is a measure of difficulty.
I think from what i wrote it was obvious that i understand the meaning of the word. Why else would i mention the use of 9 slots and a pg penalty in that context?
Originally by: Liang Nuren
3-4 HS, 3 TE's, and 3 optimal rigs is plenty trivial. Also, don't forget hardwirings... because people do use them. Alot.
4 hs still don't give 700dps on a scorch apoc. Not gonna happen. I will check about hardwirings but maybe thats another 5% optimal on top. Your numbers will still be incorrect then. And 3 rigs, 6 module slots, heavy pg penalty, 5% rof imp, 5% dmg imp + paishan thingie isnt trivial. Its top notch, maxed to the last. And even given my mediocre english i think most people would see it the same way.
And even then i doubt your numbers are true as you still fail to give me a detailed fitting to test. I'll blame the eve-o forum for that as i know they're bugged.
For you those things that aren't trvial are the ones that are impossible? I've seen you skew facts now on two occasions. I thought you were just exaggerating to make a point. But now i see whats your real intent. You're like these guys quoting vaga dps with hail but for amarr.
Quote:
I started the conversation with this. Thanks for repeating me. :)
You still quoted those wrong eft numbers in 2 threads. So i just wanted to reinforce that statement for the greater good.
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Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.11 17:50:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Scout McAlt
Gates have 150km sentry range, can the apoc tank this in a 120km sniper setup?
Two things: - I've seen sentries shoot 210km - You don't always have aggression... but yeah, it should be able to tank long enough.
-Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance. |
Wu Jiun
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Posted - 2008.03.11 17:55:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Scout McAlt Edited by: Scout McAlt on 11/03/2008 17:48:00
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Lowsec gangs are nice because all those nano ships that you fear do not operate on gates.
-Liang
Gates have 150km sentry range, can the apoc tank this in a 120km sniper setup?
With logistic support maybe. You would use an oneiros for tracking links, throw in some remote sensor boosters with targeting range scripts and it should be relatively easy. That is if you have a group of amarr specced pilots and 2 oneiros guys.
However this is just display of good teamwork. I mean you will still need tacklers at the gate for the bigger stuff. As for sniping small ships well you could do that way out of sentry range anyway for like years. Nobody complained and as a mostly lowsec player i can assure you this tactic is pretty dead since wtz. Havent seen a gate sniper for like yeah well like since wtz.
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Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.11 17:55:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Wu Jiun You're like these guys quoting vaga dps with hail but for amarr.
No, not at all. I just don't have the numbers exactly in front of me at this time of day. I get most of my 100% accurate posting done at night. It's also when I do my research, so I may have simply not remembered the numbers correctly.
Also, I never saw your rebuttal about having tried it on sisi... I would liked to have seen or noticed it.
-Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance. |
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