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Vagel
Royal Amarr Institute
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Posted - 2008.03.14 14:59:00 -
[121]
Krolin, in your last post you finally showed your true intent - to flip cans on carebear missionrunners, the isk farmer situation is just your smokescreen.
I suspect that none of the isk farmers have ever been affected by your griefing, and you are just trying to find a new way of griefing carebear players.
Fine, do what you want - but dont pretend that you are dooing CCP a favor by removing any ISK sellers, or you do any good to the community by any means. Griefing is griefing - allso if the guys you flip cannot speak english or reply to your chat.
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Suitonia
interimo
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Posted - 2008.03.14 15:03:00 -
[122]
The problem with attacking the 'isk buyers' is that they arn't as easily identified as a group of 3 ravens with character names 96000, 97000 and 98000. Although mining laser, 100mm plated navy megas are fun to kill. 
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I've always wondered about those Vagabond pilots... |
Kong iverz
Sky Net Industries
Pure.
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Posted - 2008.03.14 15:09:00 -
[123]
Edited by: Kong iverz on 14/03/2008 15:11:04
lol this is fun... ppl compareing wow to eve... and saying atleast blizzard knows how to battle isk buyers etc:D
hahahahahahahaha
so wow isnt crowded everywhere with bots running around 24/7 killing stuff looting and skinning etc...
what i dont understand is why ppl would need to buy isk in eve! its the easiest game in the world to get **** ass rich in!.. just buy a ton of stuff and resell it.. or mine in 0.0 and u can earn a billion a day if u know half of what ur doing!!!
EDIT:
eve is actually the least bot friendly game in the history of MMO games! because the game doesnt support any third party... hell it doesnt even support easy macroing:)
Kai Onslot can kill two stones with one bird |
Ki An
Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.03.14 15:10:00 -
[124]
Edited by: Ki An on 14/03/2008 15:09:59
 Originally by: Buyerr
Originally by: Ki An
That's not how you do it. This is how you do it:
Isk Buyerr I presume?
idiot i presume... *insert the worst personal attack you can imagine" F-tard. stay at subject.
Dude, no need for that. I was merely poking fun at your name.
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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Roy Batty68
Immortal Dead
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Posted - 2008.03.14 15:20:00 -
[125]
Perhaps CCP is trying to protect mission runners from being put in a position where they have to either fail the mission or flag themselves to get the item needed to finish it.
I really don't know. It's a strange change to put in and it would be interesting to know what the point of it was intended to be.
Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint |
Annaphera
The Green Machine
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Posted - 2008.03.14 15:31:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Krollin
Edited by: Krollin on 14/03/2008 14:36:49
Annaphera,
You will be surprised as the amount of farmers who do engage once you have been flagged. Check out the MacroIntel killboard (link posted earlier in this thread).
These changes; I assume were intented to help legitimate mission runners from being griefed by erm griefers, but I don't see how this has helped....
Someone else hit on the problem - griefers that enter your mission and kill the rat that drops the mission objective. I've had it done to me, and it's very frustrating to have someone else cost me both mission reward and standing that way.
Originally by: Krollin
But by implementing the change it has made it harder to get flagged to farmers, granted we will find new methods to achieve our goal.
Which obviously was not it's intended affect, but I can see how it would be frustrating.
Originally by: Krollin
All I want to know is why this change was put into affect, was it to protect the carbear mission runners in high sec (so much for risk and reward, more like reward and reward!).
Everyone has an opinion and I have stated mine :p
Kro
You know, I get tired of being called a carebear when there seem to be so many others - the big, bad, lowsec pirates included - who seem to have an even lower risk tolerance than I do. You gank mission runners - I don't think you should be throwing stones.
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Krollin
Ki Shoda
United Corporations Against Macros
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Posted - 2008.03.14 15:31:00 -
[127]
Roy Batty68,
That is exactly my point, all I would like is to know why....
As for the other comments, I do not, have not and never will harrass legitimate mission runners, if you dont believe me, checkout MacroIntel Killboard and review my kills.
Many thanks
Kro
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Buyerr
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.03.14 15:51:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Krollin
Buyerr,
Is EVE not advertised as a PVP game though????
Kro
which is kind of ironic right :P ;) :D
it is not what it is advertised as, but what people are using it for.
you can not exspect something with as hard a penaltie as eve to be a pvp game, yes it have pvp but the hours used in pvp fights compared to on pve stuff is WAY too low to actually be a pvp game..
eve is in it's full a VERY bad pve game, with some high tech pvp features.
imagine if the death penalty was not that harsh (mainly the time it takes to get and fit a new ship *YARN*) then eve would be a almost constant pvp game, but as it is now, WOW got more pvp per person then eve got ^^ actually any mmo got more pvp per person then eve does XD
(a nice little thing could be to let you have standard setups, and a buy feature where you could with 2-5 bottom pusses could have a new fully fitted ship (even if the cost was 10% more then normal) it would still increase the pvp attitude a lot.
biggest problem for eve to become a pvp type game is that everything evolving pvp is so time taking and troublesome.
I declare war on stupidity |
Buyerr
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.03.14 15:57:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Ki An
Edited by: Ki An on 14/03/2008 15:09:59
Originally by: Buyerr
Originally by: Ki An
That's not how you do it. This is how you do it:
Isk Buyerr I presume?
idiot i presume... *insert the worst personal attack you can imagine" F-tard. stay at subject.
Dude, no need for that. I was merely poking fun at your name.
my apologies then. thought you where just being a **** ^^
I declare war on stupidity |
damage done
54th Knights Templar
Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2008.03.14 16:16:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Annaphera
Originally by: Loyal Servant
Lets recap how CCP has boosted farmers in the last 6 months:
Yes, let us examine these "boosts" and see how they affect ONLY the farmers.
Originally by: Loyal Servant
1. latest thing, can't can flip a farmer in his mission.
Which means you can't flip a normal runner, either.
No, This will only help farmers as normal mission runners will be in their own missions, not in a mission that an alt is in. Please read the thread before you jump to conclusions. Vagel you also have started thinking this for some reason, so listen closely: the only people who benefit from this change in the way the OP has stated are the farmers. Whether the OP wishes to kill all mission runners is irrelevant to the discussion.
Also you assume there is no risk to the person attacking the mission runner? Just for your info there's more risk for someone attacking a mission runner than there is for a mission runner going up against a mission.
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Amaral Alasti
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.03.14 17:22:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Guddah
Can I just say that at this moment in time our only target was chinese mission farmers.
Isnt that racist? I mean why do you onlu target chinese mission farmers? What about american mission farmers, french missions farmers, Japanese mission farmers?
And what tools do you use to ensure they are Chinese?
Silly begger!
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Loyal Servant
Viper Intel Squad
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Posted - 2008.03.14 17:28:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Luh Windan
For your theory to be true & given your own admission that what you do is a niche activity - you must have been making a significant impact on Isk farmers for the CCP to have bothered nerfing your activities.
Not just me doing it, but I did blow up a can once that had a grand total of 30 billion isk of loot in it while the farmer watched me in local.
The farmers use secure cans in safespots as ammo dumps and loot drops.
Then they stab and mwd frig in and out of the pipes full of loot and ammo with -0- risk to the farming, cloaking raven.
We used to destroy the ammo dumps and loot drops and as a result we caused 1 group hundreds of billions of lost isk in a few months time.
I am sure the isk farmers lobbied for the cans not being found in safespots anymore, because I know normal players never really cared about it.
So, why is ccp messing with my sig?
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Guddah
Ki Shoda
United Corporations Against Macros
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Posted - 2008.03.14 18:40:00 -
[133]
Buyerr can you explain EXACTLY how we misuse game tactics??
Ok lamens terms needed.
We steal from the CHINESE farmer. We go all flashy flashy red.
He sometimes shoots us.
We pwn his ass and get his phat lewtz.
Easy isnt it?
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Guddah
Ki Shoda
United Corporations Against Macros
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Posted - 2008.03.14 18:45:00 -
[134]
Edited by: Guddah on 14/03/2008 18:45:20
Originally by: Amaral Alasti
Originally by: Guddah
Can I just say that at this moment in time our only target was chinese mission farmers.
Isnt that racist? I mean why do you onlu target chinese mission farmers? What about american mission farmers, french missions farmers, Japanese mission farmers?
And what tools do you use to ensure they are Chinese?
Silly begger!
Everyone knows it goes on, its in the news, its on google its everywhere. Would a serious player have a keyboard mash name if they were going to play eve properly? Imagine the talk on Teamspeak or Ventrillo, "FSGSATQW jump into HED-GP and tell me whats there. QQLOVEXX warp to Agil" etc etc.
Also, does an american say "Cao ni ma??" or "I grass your mother??". And as a last point I dont think any player accuses my mother of doing things with dogs as much as the chinese.
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000Hunter000
Missiles 'R' Us
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Posted - 2008.03.14 18:53:00 -
[135]
LOL funny, cuz i was expecting ore ganks tbh.
but offcourse this now means that noob alts can no longer be sent in to salvage the wreck cuz the owner will pwn them, so thats prolly what got them upset the most, they lost their cheap isk source unless they salvage the wrecks themselves in their pvp ships, and offcourse nobody in their right mind would fire on a pvp ship entering ur mission and stealing from u.
_______________________________________________________
CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!!
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No21
Hush.
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Posted - 2008.03.14 19:49:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Loyal Servant
Lets recap how CCP has boosted farmers in the last 6 months:
1. latest thing, can't can flip a farmer in his mission.
2. need more firepower to suicide gank one because of concord buffs.
3. cannot scan for their can farms or wrecks anymore.
Tin foil:
CCP has got to have someone that has invested in them that is pushing their buttons to have them stealth boost farmers every patch... and I do mean literally the last 3 patches have boosted farmers in some fashion.
So, it is now okay to farm missions with -0- risk?
Players rarely get harassed in their mission, it's farmers that do.
Farmers control this game now boys, the OP is right.
Players: 0
Farmers: 3
As a farmer hunter this is a massive nerf to me.
Boost patch contained more nerfs than anything else.
Perhaps I should give up while people fund mega alliances with farmed isk and eventually take over the game and when there is nothing left then, something might happen?
I can only hope.
Very good points.
I don't think you need tin foil to understand how it will affect them and does. Just by looking at how some of them work in order to maximize earnings. As you probably know there are skills that lets you get more and that something can be used and sold. Also as you probably know: they are structured. And in that there is a pattern. Which shouldn't be too hard to notice. But, as i haven't studied or looked all too much in to it so i stay a bit reserved to what you wrote.
I don't think it's in CCP,s greater interest in counteracting them than the ISK buyers. I can only guess in this matter as i don't have any solid data, but i think they would rather punish established players that has played for some time than newbies. As it's a win win situation for them. ISK sellers sells their isk and gets moneis and pay for their accounts either thru moneis or GTC,s -> Monies, the costumer gets satisfied and remains in the game than CCP punishing him and loses him and the income.
It's pretty easy to spot the farmers, and then i would think it shouldn't be to hard to monitor where the isk goes and then actually suspending their account when they clearly work for a ISK seller. As it would be a pretty nice deterrent, as it takes time to skill up a char.
Another way to combat this would be to notify the costumer of the legit way to get isk for money: GTC,s. And here CCP needs to do a better job in subdoing all of the ISK sellers advertisment in the newbie chans and starter/newbie areas.
Rawr, lol. Now i have gone a bit OfT
On the change: Well, it can be so due to in order to reduce lag and giving some to the farmers/carebears. Reducing lag at the expense of PvP and bringing less fear to the carebears, is what seems to be in CCP,s agenda lately. So they can get more paying carebears. This game is becoming more like WoW2 to me.
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Chi Quan
DEFCON.
Phoenix Allianz
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Posted - 2008.03.14 20:08:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Krollin
Historically when a mission farmer, or group of farmers entered a mission they were able to kill the mission rats. Which in turn then belonged to them. This then enabled those of us who hunt farmers to steal from multiple wrecks to get alot of aggro.
Now with the change all the wrecks belong to the mission owner only. Even if he or she is not in the mission, or system for that matter.
This then means the farmers can kill/loot and salvage without the risk of accidently taking from the wrong wreck. In essence its now easier for them to farm, less risk more profit.....
Overall a huge blow to farmer hunters.
i don't get this, it was like that since revelations at least. what is to stop you from killstealing, can flipping, can robbery or ninja salvaging that was NOT there before trinity 1.1 ?
do you get an aggression flag when u salvage other ppls wrecks now? the aggro flag from messing with the loot in the wreck has been there since like forever.
-- Tempus fugit --
quote spiralJunkie:
it doesn't matter how you pronounce it, it still shoots you in the face |
MongWen
Farmer Killers
United Corporations Against Macros
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Posted - 2008.03.14 20:15:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Amaral Alasti
Originally by: Guddah
Can I just say that at this moment in time our only target was chinese mission farmers.
Isnt that racist? I mean why do you onlu target chinese mission farmers? What about american mission farmers, french missions farmers, Japanese mission farmers?
And what tools do you use to ensure they are Chinese?
Silly begger!
i can agree that it can sound a little racist, but i have yet to see a american mission farmer speak chinese.... but form what i have done in game for the last year, farmers are in most cases chinese. (i am not saying everyone off them are ofc)
as for tools, well there are noe. but when I/you/we get to destory their ship (that sometimes is named something in chinese) they sometimes send "Fan Mail" (smack) in chinese.
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Opinions are my opinions. They do not reflect view of UCAM, if it is not stated |
Johnny Dough
Lobster n Hammer
United Corporations Against Macros
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Posted - 2008.03.15 19:38:00 -
[139]
The only good reason I can figure for CCP doing this is if they thought they could save a few ticks and take a shortcut assigning ownership of the wreck by not having to look up the owner of the last missile that hit the wreck. The exploitable loophole side effect may have been unintentional. If that's the case they should treat this as a bug and fix it.
Note: My main is an almost 100% mission runner and I don't like cheaters being given an advantage over him. |
Setana Manoro
Firefly Inc.
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Posted - 2008.03.15 20:14:00 -
[140]
Edited by: Setana Manoro on 15/03/2008 20:18:09
Edited by: Setana Manoro on 15/03/2008 20:15:41
Originally by: Recalesence
Originally by: Arkedon
Now in hi-sec, dont you need the wreck owners to shoot you first? (pre and post patch).
No matter how many wrecks you steal, if they dont shoot you then you still cant hurt them. You only get their loot but no kills.
What happens when you warp in and steal some wrecks and none of them shoot you?
Thats what im thinking, they'd be so increadably stupid for shooting at you.
Really if you got all 5-10 of these iskfarming ravens too shoot at you.. obviously you'd be resisted plated and have as much dps as you could squeeze on and call in some friends for remote rep/tracking/sensor/eccm but none of your friends will see them as flashing.
So only the one or two of you they shot at would be able to retaliate?
You don't get it, so let me explain.
The whole strategy to fighting these guys is by annoying them and killing their profits, for long enough so that they make a mistake.
They usually shoot a HAC or AF heavily tanked against the damage type the rats have as weakest, either using faction stuff on it or having friends with remote reppers.
Now if farmer A is in a group with farmers B,C,D all remote repping each other, it means that if A decides to shoot at you - or B/C/D for that matter, they all automatically become flagged to you, and you can kill them, because apart from their tank - they have 1 bs with high resists and good HP buffer, they are pretty much untanked or with resistance holes.
Now, because the mission is accepted by a char left in the station, or in the Industrial they keep with them - they always have an industrial tailing that loots the wrecks, then they cannot get flagged to a combat ship present, so they won't shoot.
It's not a question of adapt and die, because the alternative is to gank them in the mission, and apart from a few rare cases, they use only t2 on their ships, so not only are you throwing away lots of ships, but you almost make it worthwhile for them - by that i mean them looting your own wrecks.
Now, in theory they should be pretty much very safe, but they report missions in gang, which boosts the standings of all the chars in the gang. This lets them even select missions, and take those that they know pay very well. This could mean that this old trick still works, but it won't work in most cases.
In best case scenario, the work of farmer-killers has been made much much harder, and in worst case scenario, their work has now become impossible.
Good going CCP.
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Verx Interis
Aurora Security
The Cyrene Initiative
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Posted - 2008.03.15 20:36:00 -
[141]
Edited by: Verx Interis on 15/03/2008 20:41:21
I don't know if this has been mentioned...
But... This makes it easier to hurt their profit. Not harder.
If X is sitting in station, and the mission belongs to X, but Y is running it, then all wrecks will belong to Y. I got that.
That means, if someone takes from the wrecks in the mission, only X can respond, but he's in station. Y can't do anything without being Concorded.
Thus, anti-farmer group Z can go and take all the wrecks and salvage they want without being touchable. Because Z is only flagged to X, who is in station, Y cannot respond. Y can't even shoot X's wrecks, because he'll get Concorded for it.
Edit: got my letters mixed up.
-----sig-starts-here------
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Vymorna Grom
Utopian Research I.E.L.
Hedonistic Imperative
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Posted - 2008.03.15 22:35:00 -
[142]
There's no CONCORD in 0.0. 
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Max Nero
Xeno Tech Corp
United Corporations Against Macros
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Posted - 2008.03.15 22:41:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Verx Interis
Edited by: Verx Interis on 15/03/2008 20:41:21
I don't know if this has been mentioned...
But... This makes it easier to hurt their profit. Not harder.
If X is sitting in station, and the mission belongs to X, but Y is running it, then all wrecks will belong to Y. I got that.
That means, if someone takes from the wrecks in the mission, only X can respond, but he's in station. Y can't do anything without being Concorded.
Thus, anti-farmer group Z can go and take all the wrecks and salvage they want without being touchable. Because Z is only flagged to X, who is in station, Y cannot respond. Y can't even shoot X's wrecks, because he'll get Concorded for it.
Edit: got my letters mixed up.
Greatest hurt to farmers comes not from us stealing their loot but from popping their faction fitted ships. They loose over a billion in ISK (CNR hit) and it will take them some time to buy/fit new one (time lost = isk not farmed).
Originally by: Niklo
Game to become is more and more similar to prison for not aggressive people.
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Franga
NQX Innovations
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Posted - 2008.03.15 23:40:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Celot
so kill them :confused:
You're an idiot.
Originally by: Rachel Vend
... with 100% reliability in most cases ...
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Krollin
Ki Shoda
United Corporations Against Macros
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Posted - 2008.03.17 12:41:00 -
[145]
Hi everyone,
Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to respond.
Having spent the last few days seeing what impact this has as a whole I have come up with the following:
Legitimate Mission Runners
The only difference I can see is that now all wrecks and structure drops belong to the mission runner (as we have already know). This of course does not stop the ninja style salvagers coming in and savaging my wrecks. However it does stop some sneaky pilot coming into my mission and destroying the odd rat or structure in the hope I will take from his/her owner wreck or jetcan.
If this change was implemented to prevent legitimate mission runners being grieved by such people then I do not see this as a huge benefit.
Running a couple of missions myself over the weekend I had 2 instances where my mission was probed out. The first instance 2 pilots entered my mission to loot and salvage. The first was in a Catalyst, the second was in a drake. The drake was looting the cans and jettisoning the contents into his own cans. The Catalyst of course was salvaging. I could have engaged the Drake; which I am sure that was his intension, but I already know the tactic they were planning on using so I simply destroyed what I could and completed my mission.
The second occurred after I finished the mission and was in my own salvage/looting ship. As I had no weapons fitted the Thrasher was simply able to take what he wanted. Granted I now have weapons mounted on my salvage ship.
Taking these additional steps is not really an issue, more of an inconvenience. But as we have already mentioned, if it was CCPÆs intention to help legitimate mission runners then I think this change has fallen short.
Mission Farmers
It would seem that a number of farmer groups have already adapted to this change. They now seem to simply swap missions with another group and run each otherÆs missions, meaning the mission owner is still active, but in another farmers mission.
As already mentioned this change actually makes it easier to loot/salvage wrecks in a mission (irrespective if the owner is legitimate or a farmer). I would still like CCP to explain the reasons for the change, but I think I will see snow on Christmas Day before that happens!
Granted this has had an impact on hunting farmers, but we have already managed to find new techniques to achieve our objective, and before anyone makes a comment, these are legitimate techniques and I am more than happy to share, please contact me in game to discuss this further.
Thanks for your comments, flames and suchlike
Kind Regards,
Kro
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