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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 11 post(s) |
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CCP Unifex
C C P C C P Alliance
50
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Posted - 2012.02.21 21:14:00 -
[31] - Quote
CCP Tuxford wrote:I don't really know what it's called but I can tell you how it works:
- Game Design writes up a design and hands it over to the programmers.
- Programmer then immediately starts ignoring the design and implements the feature they way he/she thinks it should be.
- Once the feature has been implemented QA starts testing it and creating defect the way he/she thinks it should work.
- Then we ship it, go to the pub and high five each others while the Game Masters clear up the scorched earth behinds us.
A little bit of me just cried Senior Producer |
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Lost Hamster
Hamster Holding Corp
41
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Posted - 2012.02.21 21:22:00 -
[32] - Quote
CCP Unifex wrote:CCP Tuxford wrote:I don't really know what it's called but I can tell you how it works:
- Game Design writes up a design and hands it over to the programmers.
- Programmer then immediately starts ignoring the design and implements the feature they way he/she thinks it should be.
- Once the feature has been implemented QA starts testing it and creating defect the way he/she thinks it should work.
- Then we ship it, go to the pub and high five each others while the Game Masters clear up the scorched earth behinds us.
A little bit of me just cried Do the truth hurt? |
Don Amechi
Rock Paper Scissors
2
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Posted - 2012.02.21 21:24:00 -
[33] - Quote
We use Agile testing where i work. Unfortunately they dont have a solid 'base' code and are trying to develop one using Agile.
What you get in this situation is that one day a feature will work, and the next it burns down horribly creating a firestorm of defects. across all product apps that are on top of the 'base' system. This in turn freaks out the app devs who think the defect is related to what they did the previous day. The 'base' devs act like they did nothing wrong and act like its the app devs who broke the system. Then QA is blamed by all devs because they are not testing on the daily build (which takes 15 hours to install, thanks for that) and cannot possibly check fixes from the previous day. So what you get to hear in meetings is, "It works on my dev box" all day long.
I really miss the days of the Program Manager screaming in meetings about daily and weekly bug-counts.
Agile works for games development really well, but it lacks something when you are creating a base system to run product applications on.
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
1255
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Posted - 2012.02.21 21:30:00 -
[34] - Quote
CCP Tuxford wrote:I don't really know what it's called but I can tell you how it works:
- Game Design writes up a design and hands it over to the programmers.
- Programmer then immediately starts ignoring the design and implements the feature they way he/she thinks it should be.
- Once the feature has been implemented QA starts testing it and creating defect the way he/she thinks it should work.
- Then we ship it, go to the pub and high five each others while the Game Masters clear up the scorched earth behinds us.
I love you guys.
Do you have marketers? Tell me you put them all in a burning longboat - alive.
(that's what I would like to do)
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Vertisce Soritenshi
Varion Galactic Tragedy.
1090
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Posted - 2012.02.21 21:34:00 -
[35] - Quote
Don Amechi wrote:We use Agile testing where i work. Unfortunately they dont have a solid 'base' code and are trying to develop one using Agile.
What you get in this situation is that one day a feature will work, and the next it burns down horribly creating a firestorm of defects. across all product apps that are on top of the 'base' system. This in turn freaks out the app devs who think the defect is related to what they did the previous day. The 'base' devs act like they did nothing wrong and act like its the app devs who broke the system. Then QA is blamed by all devs because they are not testing on the daily build (which takes 15 hours to install, thanks for that) and cannot possibly check fixes from the previous day. So what you get to hear in meetings is, "It works on my dev box" all day long.
I really miss the days of the Program Manager screaming in meetings about daily and weekly bug-counts.
Agile works for games development really well, but it lacks something when you are creating a base system to run product applications on.
We used to use Agile as well and had the same problems. Fix one problem and create 10 more. We switched to SCRUM and life has been so much better since then. EvE is not about PvP.-á EvE is about the SANDBOX! - CCP!-á Open the door!!! |
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CCP Tuxford
C C P C C P Alliance
130
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Posted - 2012.02.21 21:42:00 -
[36] - Quote
I feel sort of bad for derailing this so I'm gonna attempt an proper answer.
We do use Scrum. The first expansion we developed using Scrum was Apocrypha. In a lot of ways that was similar to the our Crucible expansion in the sense that a lot of developers were involved but for Apocrypha it was for a longer time working on bigger features. I think the key to the success of Apocrypha was that we could divide the features up and have the teams tackling them individually without relying on some central bottleneck that needs to give feedback on every minute detail.
Our development process been undergoing some change recently, for me we just moved more in a direction of doing proper Scrum. The truth is you can't really set up a process and then expect it to stay that way, it's something you have to be constantly refining. https://gate.eveonline.com/Profile/CCP%20Tuxford/StatusUpdates |
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Vertisce Soritenshi
Varion Galactic Tragedy.
1090
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Posted - 2012.02.21 21:55:00 -
[37] - Quote
All in good fun. A good developement process is easily changed to adapt to ever changing circumstances. I think ours changes a little on a daily basis depending on one thing or another. So long as the goals are always met. EvE is not about PvP.-á EvE is about the SANDBOX! - CCP!-á Open the door!!! |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
3236
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Posted - 2012.02.21 23:00:00 -
[38] - Quote
CCP Tuxford wrote:I feel sort of bad for derailing this so I'm gonna attempt an proper answer.
We do use Scrum. The first expansion we developed using Scrum was Apocrypha. In a lot of ways that was similar to the our Crucible expansion in the sense that a lot of developers were involved but for Apocrypha it was for a longer time working on bigger features. I think the key to the success of Apocrypha was that we could divide the features up and have the teams tackling them individually without relying on some central bottleneck that needs to give feedback on every minute detail.
Our development process been undergoing some change recently, for me we just moved more in a direction of doing proper Scrum. The truth is you can't really set up a process and then expect it to stay that way, it's something you have to be constantly refining.
Sounds alot like airspeed wtihout time table and smaller teams working on specific things and areas using mixed skills.
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CCP Goliath
C C P C C P Alliance
76
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Posted - 2012.02.21 23:07:00 -
[39] - Quote
One important thing to remember about Scrum (and Kanban, etc) is that it's a framework for organising work within and around teams as opposed to a hard and fast "system" for development. One interesting direction we have been moving in is adopting a "Whole Team Quality" methodology, which is becoming increasingly popular in the Agile community, to both take some of the burden (and the hate ) off of our wonderful QA team, and to raise awareness and responsibility for quality of features among each and every person in the development cycle. In short, to move a little farther away from Tuxford's excellent description, saving of course the drunken hi-fiving.
(although he missed a key step whereby QA write the defect but it is then waived by a disgruntled programmer or designer) CCP Goliath | Engineering Team Lead |
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CCP Tuxford
C C P C C P Alliance
132
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Posted - 2012.02.21 23:30:00 -
[40] - Quote
CCP Goliath wrote: (although he missed a key step whereby QA write the defect but it is then waived by a disgruntled programmer or designer)
You make it sound like it's no work at all. First you have convince a Game Designer that it's actually by design and have him fight QA for you. This kind of antics probably take up a better part of a sprint. https://gate.eveonline.com/Profile/CCP%20Tuxford/StatusUpdates |
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rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
439
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Posted - 2012.02.21 23:38:00 -
[41] - Quote
I like how you guys turned the forums, into a business meeting. You should link this page to Hilmar then ask for a few more hours worth of pay.
It is pretty interesting though, and does sound pretty complex where you guys work at. disorientating |
Orator de Umbras
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2012.02.22 04:50:00 -
[42] - Quote
Now Buying Tickets for "The Office @ CCP". . . .
Seriously, make a documentary around the development process of a major MMO, would be an interesting watch. |
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CCP Explorer
79
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Posted - 2012.02.22 21:45:00 -
[43] - Quote
CCP Tuxford wrote:I feel sort of bad for derailing this so I'm gonna attempt an proper answer.
We do use Scrum. The first expansion we developed using Scrum was Apocrypha. In a lot of ways that was similar to the our Crucible expansion in the sense that a lot of developers were involved but for Apocrypha it was for a longer time working on bigger features. I think the key to the success of Apocrypha was that we could divide the features up and have the teams tackling them individually without relying on some central bottleneck that needs to give feedback on every minute detail.
Our development process been undergoing some change recently, for me we just moved more in a direction of doing proper Scrum. The truth is you can't really set up a process and then expect it to stay that way, it's something you have to be constantly refining. I look away and you try to be helpful?
Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games |
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