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Lyria Skydancer
Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.15 19:39:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Shemaul Bring back damage bonus applied to every type of missile fitted. We do only one kind of damage per missile. Tired to be the only race that tells foes "don't forget your kin hardener when u fight me!".
And why would ccp give such a redicilous boost to a race that half of eve is flying because its obviously a very good race? It wont happen. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare |
Pan Dora
Bears Inc Sylph Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.15 19:41:00 -
[32]
I agree with you in some points but disagree in anothers.
Minmatar weapons in amarr ship was a sign of how bad the things turn out. And is reallly good to see that finaly amarr are recieving some atention, let hope they keep it coming. But there other issues that need to have some work on too. IMO misssiles need some love, shield tank need a lot of love, drones need a bit of discipline, speed ned a bit of hate. Let see what will happen with all this patch and adjutments, and keep our opinion in the mind of the devs.
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Whip Slagcheek
Vajayjay
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Posted - 2008.03.15 19:44:00 -
[33]
Didn't we do this 10 page thread last week?
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Rawr Cristina
Naqam
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Posted - 2008.03.15 19:45:00 -
[34]
Hmm. /signed. Even if it's just an ROF bonus or a 'half' damage-bonus to other types. ...
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Hasak Rain
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.03.15 19:54:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Rawr Cristina Edited by: Rawr Cristina on 15/03/2008 19:48:25 Hmm. /signed. Even if it's just an ROF bonus or a 'half' damage-bonus to other types.
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer And why would ccp give such a redicilous boost to a race that half of eve is flying because its obviously a very good race? It wont happen.
Yay yet again the "More % of people fly it, therefore it's better" crowd.
He never said it was better than anything. He said it is a "very good race."
And yes, I would agree that half the player base probably wouldn't fly Caldari if it were a gimped race.
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Rawr Cristina
Naqam
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Posted - 2008.03.15 20:02:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Hasak Rain And yes, I would agree that half the player base probably wouldn't fly Caldari if it were a gimped race.
Considering over half of the EVE Population have never PvPed in their lives and probably won't before they quit, I honestly can't say this has much merit.
The fact missions are better suited to Caldari is more a problem with PvE in general, than Caldari as a race. To note: You can't even use MWD, so Gallente get pretty screwed in that regard from the start. ...
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Auron Shadowbane
Pelennor Swarm Scorched Earth.
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Posted - 2008.03.15 20:23:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Matthew
Originally by: Shemaul Tired to be the only race that tells foes "don't forget your kin hardener when u fight me!".
If your opponent has tanked hard on kin, then they will be weak to one of the other damage types. Switching to use one of those other damage types takes just 10 seconds to reload ammo - something turrets cannot do (while projectiles can change their damage mix, they can't do a pure damage switch in the same way, and have to deal with changes to range and volume of ammo when switching damage mix (which affects frequency of reloads, and thus long-term DPS)).
Yes, you lose the damage bonus if you switch to another damage type, but you also get to put your entire damage output through their weak resistance. The trick is knowing whether that weak resist is weak enough to make up for the loss of the damage bonus.
So lets bring some numbers into it. I'm going to take my own standard mission-fit Drake as an example (both as attacker and defender), simply because it's the closest ship I have to hand. It has shield resists of (EM/Kin/Exp/Ther) 67/80/63/73, so is already biased towards kin in it's tank.
With my skills I get a 25% damage bonus to kin, giving damages for the 4 damage types of: 202.5/253.125/202.5/202.5
Putting these through the resists (calculation: (1-resist_decimal)*rawdamage ) means that actual damage done for each damage type is 66.825/50.625/74.925/54.675
Therefore, even with a 25% damage bonus to kinetic, shooting this drake with kinetic missiles is actually the worst thing you can do.
With my skills, that drake has a rof of 7.83 seconds. Reloading takes 10 seconds, so I lose the equivalent of 1.28 shots by switching damage types. Even the smallest gain switch, from kin to term gains me 4.05 damage per shot, so the switch is worth making if the fight is expected to last more than 16 shots (i.e. over 2 minutes). If I make the most beneficial switch (kin to exp), I gain 24.3 damage per shot, and it's worth doing if the fight is expected to last more than 2 shots.
While it may feel like the bonus is now not helping you, in reality it is, just not in the direct and obvious way. Remember, it's the existence of the kinetic bonus that led your opponent to skew his tank towards kinetic, and open up the resistance hole you're now using against him. So while it's his resistance hole that's directly improving your damage, it's your damage bonus that made him open up that hole in the first place.
/qft
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Gamesguy
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.15 20:37:00 -
[38]
To the OP,
Ok, what are you willing to give up for it?
When minmatar switch ammo types they typically lose dps, plus they can't focus on one damage type the way caldari can.
Same thing for drones, switching from thermal makes you lose damage.
So what are you willing to give up for it?
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Nicholas Barker
MASS Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service
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Posted - 2008.03.15 20:46:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Buyerr
but one thing i will say should be overkilled and removed is the "bonus to ROCKETS only" and ham only etc.. there is NO other weapon systems saying "bonus ONLY to blasters" or only to rail guns. etc.
Railguns ships (caldari) get a bonus to range because it enhances railguns range to a race specific advantage, Blasters (Gal) get a bonus to tracking, because it enhances blasters.
They need to find something similar in Heavy missiles and HAMS, etc etc that helps both Khanid and Caldari, but helps them both at the same time, but certain races ships get helped more depending on the different weapon type on the ship. For instance gals tracking bonus helps railguns still, and caldaris range bonus helps blasters kind of :S need something similar khanid and caldari, but not the same as gal/caldari, and should help them both just in different ways. ---
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Doppleganger
Band of Builders Inc.
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Posted - 2008.03.15 20:57:00 -
[40]
Since these threads keeps popping up I agree with the title of the thread.
Quote: Time has come to remove "kinetic" dmg bonus from caldari ships.
I voted that we remove the kinetic dmg bonus from caldari ships and replace it with no bonus.
.
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Alex Raptos
The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2008.03.15 21:27:00 -
[41]
Oh come on we just ******* killed a topic on this, can you please just leave it? the horse is dead, the boat has sailed, and nobody gives a flying ****.
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Daelin Blackleaf
Naqam
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Posted - 2008.03.16 18:11:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Gamesguy To the OP,
Ok, what are you willing to give up for it?
When minmatar switch ammo types they typically lose dps, plus they can't focus on one damage type the way caldari can.
Same thing for drones, switching from thermal makes you lose damage.
So what are you willing to give up for it?
Does this mean that all missile using ships that are not restricted by damage type are overpowered?
It's not a major problem, it's not ruining the race, but it is an imbalance. Can you imagine the uproar if the Khanid ships had all been restricted to EM damage? It needs addressing, whenever CCP have some time on their hands that is.
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Gamesguy
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.17 07:46:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
Originally by: Gamesguy To the OP,
Ok, what are you willing to give up for it?
When minmatar switch ammo types they typically lose dps, plus they can't focus on one damage type the way caldari can.
Same thing for drones, switching from thermal makes you lose damage.
So what are you willing to give up for it?
Does this mean that all missile using ships that are not restricted by damage type are overpowered?
It's not a major problem, it's not ruining the race, but it is an imbalance. Can you imagine the uproar if the Khanid ships had all been restricted to EM damage? It needs addressing, whenever CCP have some time on their hands that is.
Sure, you can have your +dmg bonus to all as soon as all the Caldari missile boats only get a bonus towards rockets, HAMs, and torpedos.
Can you imagine the uproar if ccp decided to change the caldari missile bonus to 5% rof towards short range missiles ONLY? Like say, oh... Khanid ships.
So no, its not an imbalance.
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Sha4d13
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.03.17 10:30:00 -
[44]
I dont know anyone who goes out on a roam, ubertanking kinetic just in case they meet a caracal...
Seriously- this is a stupid post.
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Mangus Thermopyle
Divine Retribution Divine 0rder
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Posted - 2008.03.17 10:41:00 -
[45]
Its much tougher to setup a tank against a caldari ship that it is against a gallente ship. Even with kinetic bonuses a skilled caldari pilot will bring other missiles with him, and use the correct ones depending on what ship he fights.
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Shemaul
A.C.M.E Inc.
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Posted - 2008.03.17 11:08:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Sha4d13 I dont know anyone who goes out on a roam, ubertanking kinetic just in case they meet a caracal...
Seriously- this is a stupid post.
This is the classic reply: "sorry, i have to answer but i cannot think more than 2 second before start writing".
I just answer to be polite: there are hundereds of situation in EVE involving corps or bunch of players (pirating in low sec, small wars in empire or 0.0) that fight each other daily. So, for example, it's not difficult to make tactics vs gang of 4,7 ppl when u know most of them fly caldari ships with Kin bonus.
For all other. Sorry for my english but the pourpose of this 3d (and i thought it was clear) was not: "GIVE US BONUS ON ALL MISSILES". Of course we know we have to loose something in exchange. Some way to balance and address it. Every cladari pilot is ready to sacrifice something if CCp remove kin damage and bring back general damage for missiles. If CCP will be able to keep it balanced.
It's kinda weird to loose damage bonus of a ship if u just switch ammo. No other weapon system has this feature...
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Sha4d13
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.03.17 11:23:00 -
[47]
It was nothing of the sort...
If you are talking about very small scale inter corp empire wars- then I can just about see how you might think "well- most of them fly caldari- we;ll tank kinetic". But of course, that just creates a further level of strategy. You know they will tank kinetic- and (if you know what they normally fly) you also know where they are likely to be weakest in any event- so hit them there. Thats the joy of changeable damage types.
Realistically- if you come against Gallente corp regularly- you know to tank therm / kinetic. Amarr- em and therm. etc Why on earth would caldari be any different- especially when they can readily change it up.
I pvp regularly on my caldari character and the high kin bonus is much more useful than a spread lower bonus would be. The vast majority of ships you meet in day to day pvp do not set up expecting to meet you. Most omni tank.
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Shemaul
A.C.M.E Inc.
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Posted - 2008.03.17 11:30:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Sha4d13 It was nothing of the sort...
If you are talking about very small scale inter corp empire wars- then I can just about see how you might think "well- most of them fly caldari- we;ll tank kinetic". But of course, that just creates a further level of strategy. You know they will tank kinetic- and (if you know what they normally fly) you also know where they are likely to be weakest in any event- so hit them there. Thats the joy of changeable damage types.
Realistically- if you come against Gallente corp regularly- you know to tank therm / kinetic. Amarr- em and therm. etc Why on earth would caldari be any different- especially when they can readily change it up.
I pvp regularly on my caldari character and the high kin bonus is much more useful than a spread lower bonus would be. The vast majority of ships you meet in day to day pvp do not set up expecting to meet you. Most omni tank.
When u talk about tactics vs gallente ship, is due to the way they choose to fight. Kin-Th (two resisteance anyway) are to make massive damage at close range. So u tank em to possibility, nothing related to Ship bonus.
And one point remain: We loose bonus switching ammo...quite weird...
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Sha4d13
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.03.17 11:35:00 -
[49]
Its not weird at all. Gallente and amarr can only generally do two types of damage- caldari have the option of all types. In balancing that- they get a big bonus to their preferred damage type.
As has been explained at length above- anyone tanking kinetic specifically in fear of caldari missile boats- is leaving a hole somewhere else which a decent pilot can exploit by switching.
And as I have said twice now- it is not common for people to tank specifically against caldari. Unless a whole corp / regular enemy only flies caldari it would be suicide to heavily tank kinetic and leave yourself open to being walloped by a sniping Apoc or something.
Whether you think its logical or not- its certainly not unfair, and is certainly not something that serious caldair pvp pilots have any issue with at all.
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Schani Kratnorr
Internal Revenue Service
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Posted - 2008.03.17 11:41:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Shemaul Bring back damage bonus applied to every type of missile fitted. We do only one kind of damage per missile. Tired to be the only race that tells foes "don't forget your kin hardener when u fight me!".
You being tired is not an entirely unbiased reason for a rather sweeping change.
This post belongs in the suggestions and ideas forum IMO, but I'll bite anyway cause I usually lurk there anyway. Heck maybe a MOD vil eventually move the topic...
Before you suggest something, It is a good idea to think of the ramifications. In this case you are talking about adding a direct bonus to one or more ships already in the game. I think we can all agree that EVE has reached a point where changing anything already in game, can lead to you being bullied at fanfest by a ravenous rabble of fat, sweaty nerds (shame on you!)
The straight missile damage bonus was good. It was the ONE reason EVERYONE flew Caldari battleships in missions at the very start. You could choose your damage, and even get a bonus... Now there are ten times as many ships in game. Way more people with more skill points and new skills. My view: re-introducing a straight missile damage bonus to some or all Caldari ships would be a disaster.
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Lore Varan
Caltech Shipyards
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Posted - 2008.03.17 12:03:00 -
[51]
/Signed.
Change the 5% kin per level to 5% rof per level same as most other races get. That way your not gimping caldari versus those with insane kin resists to start with. |
Sha4d13
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.03.17 12:08:00 -
[52]
Then youd have to reduce the damage of missiles- to balance the fact that caldari can do full damage with any damage type- and are the only race which can.
This really is a nothing point.
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Venkul Mul
Vikramaditya DO JAJA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.17 12:29:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Pan Dora
But there other issues that need to have some work on too. IMO misssiles need some love, shield tank need a lot of love, drones need a bit of discipline, speed ned a bit of hate. Let see what will happen with all this patch and adjutments, and keep our opinion in the mind of the devs.
Shield tank is not weak at all. It don't work in conjunction with tackling ger, but that is another issue again.
That don't make it weak against a armor tank as DPS resistances, it make it weak for tackling and so for solo work.
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Shemaul
A.C.M.E Inc.
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Posted - 2008.03.17 12:44:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Shemaul on 17/03/2008 12:45:32
Originally by: Sha4d13 Its not weird at all. Gallente and amarr can only generally do two types of damage- caldari have the option of all types. In balancing that- they get a big bonus to their preferred damage type.
Still missing your point... i'm displeased i have to disagree with u on almost anything.
Caldari have the option of all type IF U LOOSE SHIP BONUS. So what deny an amarr to loose his bonus and mount arties? It's the same thing.
Originally by: Sha4d13 Then youd have to reduce the damage of missiles- to balance the fact that caldari can do full damage with any damage type- and are the only race which can.
This really is a nothing point.
Another untrue fact. Did u ever know about explosion radius? Did u ever read what a torp does to an inty? Not full damage, i can assure u this...
And another thing u just consider: missile neves does wrecking hits. So this side of the question could be called "balanced" well enough.
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Mithrantir Ob'lontra
Ixion Defence Systems The Cyrene Initiative
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Posted - 2008.03.17 12:51:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Shemaul Bring back damage bonus applied to every type of missile fitted. We do only one kind of damage per missile. Tired to be the only race that tells foes "don't forget your kin hardener when u fight me!".
Only if they add tracking penalties/falloff/optimal and varying damage output per hit of missiles.
I don't really get this new trend with the whining on the Caldari ships. You have some advantages other other races, while other races have some different advantages over you. Adapt or roll a new character.
And don't tell me that you haven't noticed this "limiting" factor within 2 months of playing (and that if you really can't be bothered to do some research).
------- Nobody can be exactly like me. Even I have trouble doing it. |
Tim Mc
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.03.17 12:53:00 -
[56]
Either the races should receive damage specific drone bonuses, or Missile damage type bonuses should be removed from all ships. Its not like missiles do that much damage anyway.
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Gypsio III
Darkness Inc.
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Posted - 2008.03.17 12:54:00 -
[57]
Quote: Can you imagine the uproar if ccp decided to change the caldari missile bonus to 5% rof towards short range missiles ONLY?
If only this would happen...
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Shemaul
A.C.M.E Inc.
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Posted - 2008.03.17 12:55:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Mithrantir Ob'lontra
Originally by: Shemaul Bring back damage bonus applied to every type of missile fitted. We do only one kind of damage per missile. Tired to be the only race that tells foes "don't forget your kin hardener when u fight me!".
Only if they add tracking penalties/falloff/optimal and varying damage output per hit of missiles.
I don't really get this new trend with the whining on the Caldari ships. You have some advantages other other races, while other races have some different advantages over you. Adapt or roll a new character.
And don't tell me that you haven't noticed this "limiting" factor within 2 months of playing (and that if you really can't be bothered to do some research).
If u read the whole post, i'm quite sure u'll blame yourself for the poor idea of yourself u gave with this reply...
Somenone should tell me the reason to reply in a post without read anything before, one day or another...
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Sha4d13
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.03.17 12:56:00 -
[59]
Shemaul- with respect, I have to assume that you are not really much of a pvper- as you don't appear to understand the issues here.
Yes- Gallente can fit antimatter by choice- but thats just a RANGE change. They can still only fire kin/therm. Caldari have the advantage that missiles hit as hard at 1k as they do at 100k. They can also switch pure damage types- which other races cannot do mid battle. MID BATTLE is important and completely dispels your argument about amarr fitting arties.
So if someone tanks against my gallente ship- even with my bonuses, im not hitting him very hard. If I could switch like caldari I could go for this weaknesses.
As for exp radius etc- have you ever tried to hit an interceptor with a gallente 425mm railgun? Or even an Arty?
You cant do it- unless at appropriate range and low transversal by the inty. Missiles are actually the speed tanker's least favourite opponent.
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Mithrantir Ob'lontra
Ixion Defence Systems The Cyrene Initiative
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Posted - 2008.03.17 13:01:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Shemaul
Originally by: Mithrantir Ob'lontra
Originally by: Shemaul Bring back damage bonus applied to every type of missile fitted. We do only one kind of damage per missile. Tired to be the only race that tells foes "don't forget your kin hardener when u fight me!".
Only if they add tracking penalties/falloff/optimal and varying damage output per hit of missiles.
I don't really get this new trend with the whining on the Caldari ships. You have some advantages other other races, while other races have some different advantages over you. Adapt or roll a new character.
And don't tell me that you haven't noticed this "limiting" factor within 2 months of playing (and that if you really can't be bothered to do some research).
If u read the whole post, i'm quite sure u'll blame yourself for the poor idea of yourself u gave with this reply...
Somenone should tell me the reason to reply in a post without read anything before, one day or another...
Are you serious? Can you at least have the decency to realize that your post (the sum of the posts after that is named a thread FYI) is utterly biased and not thought out?
Go and utilize the advantages your race has over the other ships and stop moaning about the disadvantages. No one is perfect and i see no reason why Caldari should be.
------- Nobody can be exactly like me. Even I have trouble doing it. |
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