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Hamfast
Lightfoot Industries
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Posted - 2008.03.19 15:48:00 -
[91]
We are not known here by our given names... we are known by the names we make up for our avatars...
Sven Notmyrealname has done a number of things for Eve Online, but Chribba is the one that gets the credit... Chribba is the one that's known and would garner votes...
Tarminic is well known, Peter Pettigrew is not... Tarminic gets votes, Peter gets ignored, yet it's Peters work that suffers while Tarminic is penning his next well loved rant...
CCP wishes to know who the applicants are, that is fine, it seems to me our lives outside of Eve should be of concern to CCP, for all they know I work for Blizzard (I don't) and would be very interested in information I could glean for what ever reason... Heck, I could have a history of ignoring NDA's... CCP needs to know these things before they let us in the door... but the players here don't really need to know Peter, Sven or Fred...
I just hope the real Sven Notmyrealname and Peter Pettigrew, who have nothing to do with Chribba or Tarminc, are not bothered by my name dropping... Fred does not care.
--------*****--------
It takes 43 muscles to frown and 17 to smile, but it doesn't take any to just sit there with a dumb look on your face.
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Iboku Kaeane
Malicious Intentions
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Posted - 2008.03.19 17:19:00 -
[92]
I've exprienced closely what impact people elected for something like this can have on a game, I worked with one on data analysis, and suggestions to help in minimal balance changes (minimal changes are far better than large changes) back in my day playing DAoC.
Therefore I look forward to seeing this in function, I am as of yet, uncertain if i will apply for this or vote and participate actively in whatever manner i can without being part of this council, however my real life name is far from an issue to me.
In the end, i know i have the time to devote myself to this however, it is hard to decide if i want a position like this, to me this would be two things, another layer of game experience (which i don't mind at all), And a way to have some influence on the develoment of the game, not much but even a little is enough, If you've ever worked with Game development representatives on any game before you'll know this to be true.
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Grant me the serenity to accept what i cannot change,
The courage to change what i cannot accept,
And the wisdom to hide the bodies of those people |
no013
Stormwolf Holdings LLC
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Posted - 2008.03.19 17:21:00 -
[93]
Well ill will vote for any 1 who will fix those vouch for us minmatar and fix those artillery cannons and our non existance ewar mods.
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Bakhal Yttrites
Stair Fall
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Posted - 2008.03.19 17:58:00 -
[94]
Why would CCP make a requirement like this? As I scan ticket prices from Indianapolis to Iceland, it becomes clear to me that they are willing to invest thousands of dollars per CSM member. Yes, that rl ISK is not going directly to the players as payment for services, but to make it worth their while they need to hold participants to a higher level of accountability if they are going to have meaningful input into the game and the community.
Is it unreasonable to ask of players of a MMORPG? Probably, because we play in a fantasy world with fantasy spaceships playing with fantasy money. But CCP is asking it of us, not as part of Eve but as active participants in their business model.
I know, I know-- the CSM has no "authority" and will be purely advisory. Hmmm. Like consultants. Volunteer consultants, at a nonetheless very real expense to CCP.
If you don't feel comfortable doing it, then don't. Hell, if I could secure a passport in two weeks I would run for this just for the novelty of it. After attempting to engage multinational corporations who waste themselves out of profitability and institutions that perpetuate abusive relationships between individuals, seeing something like this is simply breathtaking.
Will it be effective? Who knows? My background is in applied anthropology, and I can tell you that there often isn't a "right" solution one can just grab off the shelf and plug into a given situation, as much as they may preach that in business school (as my sister tells me happens in her world). I can't even tell you if this is a healthy direction for the community to go-- how much engagement with the community is too much? How much engagement with CCP is too much? Where are the lines and where should the lines be?
I'm relatively new around here, but I know people who played Eve for several years and I've been doing my homework. The type of engagement CCP tries to have is one that leaves it very vulnerable in certain respects, breaks the models that are exemplified in management courses in companies all over the place, and echoes the call for institutional reform that many activists and consumer groups put out.
The organizations I have interfaced with would do anything to improve except spend money. That CCP, a relatively small company, would invest this level of resources on an experiment in customer relations just sort of overwhelms me. I know that they are gamers themselves, and I can imagine that they understand the ramifications of what they ask. That is why they wrote a 19 page manifesto in proper academic style to support it.
It is risky. But I expect that they will find nine people willing to do the job. Saying "Real names" means that everyone who is involved is committed to the process and is going to serve the community as best as they can. Saying "Real names" means that those who want to serve will have to invest themselves and their real life reputations as CCP invests their own reputation and money. If it works, there will be mutual payoff depending on how each leverages the output. In CCP's case it will hopefully be reducing churn. In the case of the CSM members, it will hopefully be putting this experience down on a resume or CV and having something to get geek points with in their personal circles.
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Crimsonjade
Comanche Nation
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Posted - 2008.03.19 18:40:00 -
[95]
/emote kicks self for failing to renew my passport 
but best wishs to the winners!
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.03.19 19:03:00 -
[96]
Real life names, disclosed to the community, this is not wise.
I fully understand CCP's need to verify individuals for legal reasons, as well as marketing reasons. Yet, the community does not need to know the name of anyone in the CSM. The community has no legal recourse with regards to the individuals that constitute the CSM. Additionally, if someone did something with RL information, against one of the candidates, be it even a small thing, CCP would likely be liable for damages. It is for this these kinds of reasons that posting RL information on the forums about someone other than your self is prohibited.
I encourage CCP to rethink this policy for the protection of its customers, as well as its own protections.
The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)
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maGz
The Hoodie Mafia
Cosa Nostra.
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Posted - 2008.03.19 19:20:00 -
[97]
While I understand the need for authorization of the members, I cannot see any other reason for revealing RL names as a mere PR-stunt aimed at the none-mmorpg crowd... That alone makes the CSM a joke as it would in effect by something along the lines: "Yeah sure. Good argument. Oh look journalists incoming - all line up for group-foto with EVE-posters as background..."
And for the actual election itself: only a minority reads these forums - how in gods name do you expect to get a fair representation of the EVE-community?
It's a good idea, no doubt. But as usual we fall victim of complete control from CCP.
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D'ceet
Shadows of the Dead
Vae Victis.
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Posted - 2008.03.19 19:30:00 -
[98]
i, D'ceet am hereby throwing my hat into the ring!
COME GET A TASTE OPPONENTS!
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
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Posted - 2008.03.19 19:36:00 -
[99]
Edited by: Chainsaw Plankton on 19/03/2008 19:41:48
what if your current passport is expired, but you can get a passport by June 
hmmmm June is surprisingly close aka about 10 weeks, which is what good old uncle sam says it takes to get a passport
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Treelox
Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
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Posted - 2008.03.19 19:45:00 -
[100]
To all the ppl whining about RL names being revealed, shame you didnt think about that before your hid behind your internet persona, or you can be cool like me and just not have any RL presence on the internet. I just fail to exsist on any search engines, as a RL entity.
Seriously though, I fully understand why RL names are required, not only from the PR standpoint, but as a counter balance to prevent players from abusing their "power" as a member of the council. Makes perfect sense. You wish to be a public figure, you give up the right to internet anonymity.
With all that said, sadly I think the only thing of any worth that will come out of this whole concept, is that a few people will get free tickets to iceland, some free meals, and a couple nights stay in a hotel room. Since I unfortunetly believe that this whole concept is already pre-nerfed, and really mostly being pushed forward as a PR spin to fix the allegations of direct Dev/GM meddling with ingame affairs.
Xhagen, I do appreciate the time and effort that you have put into this, but I will be shocked and awed if this actually even last more than 2 terms before it goes the way of most pet projects of the PR dept., ala weekly EveTV broadcast.
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Tehopenee
British Federation
Sleepless Knights Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.19 20:05:00 -
[101]
I guess what you are trying to do might be a good idea--but--I dont see how it is going to be even reasonable fair. First you have to have the moeny to get to iceland should you be chosen. Got to be big bucks there. Just a thought--then I suppose it will consist of mainly older character types who belong to the big alliances. Will be interesting to see how it turns out. I hope it works well for you. I think this will not be an easy thing to do--good luck with it. tehopenee :)
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Bane Glorious
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.19 20:33:00 -
[102]
 Originally by: Treelox
To all the ppl whining about RL names being revealed, shame you didnt think about that before your hid behind your internet persona, or you can be cool like me and just not have any RL presence on the internet. I just fail to exsist on any search engines, as a RL entity.
Seriously though, I fully understand why RL names are required, not only from the PR standpoint, but as a counter balance to prevent players from abusing their "power" as a member of the council. Makes perfect sense. You wish to be a public figure, you give up the right to internet anonymity.
So it's good to disclose real life names of people on a video game council because if they try to "abuse their 'power'", people around the world know who that person is and can go TP their house and knock over their mailbox? If a representative were to try to suggest something that was irrational, incorrect, or just plain disruptive, the idea will would get disproven, shot down, and ignored. I don't see how making someone's name open to the public would be a punishment befitting a crime, let alone a punishment for those who didn't and probably won't commit any crimes in the first place.
I've got no problem telling CCP what my name is, since after all they can find it easily enough under my billing info, but most people would prefer to go under their character's name, or at least Bill M. or John S. or something. |
Hamfast
Lightfoot Industries
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Posted - 2008.03.19 20:44:00 -
[103]
First off, I want CCP to turn this in to a PR Show... I want them to get a return on their investment... but as Adunh Slavy points out, CCP is the one with the "Deep Pockets" if something unforeseen happens and can be linked to CCP's release of their name.
CCP has committed to pay the cost to fly 9 people from any where in the world to Iceland, Put them up for a few days, feed them... perhaps with Pizza... and then fly them home... I suspect Transportation to and from the office would also have to be included... Oh, and then there is the "Entertainment"... CCP should be able to use this in Advertisement, I want them to... More money for CCP = more resources for Eve, and we all benifit from that.
If as part of the Eve-TV/ Advertisement a CSM member says "My name is Fred and I approve this" and Fred starts to catch flack (as Adunh Slavy points out) no court will find CCP libel (well, no normal court), but, if CCP announces Fred's name publicly all bets are off... I suggest This would become a good investment...
--------*****--------
It takes 43 muscles to frown and 17 to smile, but it doesn't take any to just sit there with a dumb look on your face.
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Sopha Serpentia
Core Dynamics
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Posted - 2008.03.19 21:35:00 -
[104]
I find this an underwhelming waste of time. Unless you enjoy brisk cold weather or fantasise about being a game developer.
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Serene Loren
Amarr Trading Company Inc
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Posted - 2008.03.19 21:40:00 -
[105]
Edited by: Serene Loren on 19/03/2008 21:41:07
Two Questions:
1. Is the trip to Iceland on CCP's dime, or do the CSM members have to pay for thier own trip and lodging? And, I FINALLY found the answer after posting, how completely weak of me and my crappy skimming of the posts.
2. Many have asked about the possibility of alliance dominated council. Is there going to be a limit of how many of each coalitions players will/can make it onto the council?
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Soporo
Tides of Silence
Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.19 22:23:00 -
[106]
Edited by: Soporo on 19/03/2008 22:27:41
Edited by: Soporo on 19/03/2008 22:25:41
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Reptzo
Personally, I think this will be the biggest problem, getting people to care enough to vote in the first place.
You might as well just go ahead and say "there will be one representative from each of the highest-count alliances in the game" and scrap the vote altogether.
I fully expect that alliance members will be strongly "encouraged" to vote (and gather as much support for candidates) as possible.
Which means what?
It means only huge Alliance issues will be cared about to be discussed. Which already ARE known and discussed by the same frickin Devs that PLAY the game in those same frickin Alliances. (barring the Goonies of course  )
I mean what about rookie Empire issues? What about LowSec Prat issues. What about Missioner issues, Miners, etc.
Eh, useless PR move, I'd say.
Might be wrong but I doubt it. Regardless, I will vote a Goon in, makes as much sense as anything.
________________________________________________
"We can't reimburse ships due to server meltdowns because our service is so frickin unstable we get thousands of reimburse petitions daily". |
Stealthy
Imperial Guardians
Dark Phoenix Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.03.19 22:34:00 -
[107]
as one of the original members of the CSM (we just met in real time chat chan)I suggest you STOP the hype. I believe I was in 7th one.
CCP is doing this ONLY because multiple Devs, GMs, ISDs etc personnel got caught doing things they SHOULD NOT have been doing.
CCP HAD given up on the CSM concept for a few years until the series of scandals erupted.
I am interested in seeing how the new concept pans out but pretending WHY the CSM was revived is utter tripe.
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Wadaya
Trailerpark Industries
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Posted - 2008.03.19 23:19:00 -
[108]
Personally, I think this will all boil down to Much Ado About Nothing. I have Admin'd games where there have been various incarnations of "Player Councils", and in my experience, the outcome falls into 2 categories: Very bad idea, and Catastrophic. So I'm pretty much in agreement with Treelox
My only question to Xhagen would be, are the "elected" players going to an actual representation of the Eve Demographic? Or will it be like Akita T surmises that it will just be a Top 9 popularity contest.
In the last QEN, Dr.EyjoG states that 76% resided in High sec, 13% resided in Low sec, and 9% resided in 0.0 (he never explained where the missing 2% was). Seems to me you from this you would get 1 CAOD alt, 1 Pew Pew, 4 Mission Farmers and 3 Veld Humpers.
Wad
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Treelox
Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
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Posted - 2008.03.20 00:38:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Wadaya
So I'm pretty much in agreement with Treelox
Careful, I think thats the 3rd time we have been in agreement this week, soon ppl will call us alts of one another....
:P
Originally by: Wadaya
In the last QEN, Dr.EyjoG states that 76% resided in High sec, 13% resided in Low sec, and 9% resided in 0.0 (he never explained where the missing 2% was). Seems to me you from this you would get 1 CAOD alt, 1 Pew Pew, 4 Mission Farmers and 3 Veld Humpers.
My semi-sarcasitic guess for the missing 2%, in process of being biomassed, dev/gm accounts in jove space, and those chars that have been perma banned.
--
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Inanna Zuni
The Causality
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.03.20 00:49:00 -
[110]
"You will run under your real name with an EVE identity for others to relate to."
Originally by: CCP Xhagen
It was decided very early on to require people to give up their real life names in order to run, and that the real life names were going to be made public.
I see no issue with the real names of the *successful* board members being made public, especially as a positive PR action. I am more concerned, however, with making them public at the candidature stage. Of course CCP need those details when people put themselves forward for consideration, but it is clear from comments upthread that many people are concerned that they might suffer 'real life' consequences.
Personally, I am *out* as a pilot in Eve-online, indeed I was talking at a (business) conference last week and mentioned the fact from the platform (there was a relevance, not just pride!) but the "run under your real name" misses the point that ingame and at in-person meets "real names" are extremely rare, indeed meaningless. Only one's "EVE identity" has any meaning to others to form their judgement on (indeed except for the few dozen pilots I've met in person I've little idea of the age or gender of anyone else, let alone their 'real' name!) "require people ... real life names in order to run ... to be made public." does not preclude not publicising the real names of those candidates who are not elected, should they request.
Oh, for the record, I'm Alison. Hi there ;-P
IZ
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
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Posted - 2008.03.20 00:52:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Treelox
To all the ppl whining about RL names being revealed, shame you didnt think about that before your hid behind your internet persona, or you can be cool like me and just not have any RL presence on the internet. I just fail to exsist on any search engines, as a RL entity.
according to google I am a hockey player, a laywer, and a novelist 
anyways who cares if all the members are goons or bob or tri, or idle guns. ccp still has the giant your ideas are stupid VETO! (no subliminal reference to VETO intended) do you think ccp would even listen to a give us tech 2 bpos, or something like that. 
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Vegeta
Omniscient Order
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Posted - 2008.03.20 00:58:00 -
[112]
Hi,
I would like to know whether I should bother applying and spending time on this or not, or would I be wasting my time? You know my history Xhagen, please get back to me via Eve or email.
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Drachtul Tun'Dull
Stair Fall
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Posted - 2008.03.20 03:01:00 -
[113]
Edited by: Drachtul Tun''Dull on 20/03/2008 03:02:36
Do people here not read the 19 page PDF? CCP doesn't see this as a game. They see it as a social experiment with game-like qualities. They want accountability from the CSM to the player base in an out of game context, to purposefully push back the boundaries of in-game relationships and take it to "the next level." They are pushing to engage beyond the comfort zone we have built up to protect ourselves.
Maybe it is the anthropologist in me. I find it fascinating. CCP is taking this thing deeper than I thought possible.
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Sylthi
Coreward Pan-Galactic
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Posted - 2008.03.20 03:20:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Bane Glorious
If we're still talking about disclosing real life names to the public, I really do not like the idea. Considering that people threatened real life bodily harm upon Zulupark just a few months ago, I'd like to minimize the risk of some nerdy psycho breaking into my house and cutting my throat with his Korean-manufactured katana.
So yeah, please, can we make real life names private, or at least a little private? Like maybe just initials?
I have never actually threatened Zulu with bodily harm, but do not really blame those who have. (As long as they don't go through with it.) Dreamed about it? Sure. And blissfully pleasant dreams they were too.  But, it was a two-handed battle hammer that I was bludgeoning him to death with.... slowly. Does that still count as "nerdy"? 
Seriously though, real names made public in any online situation is NOT a good idea. CCP should re-think this one. Initials is a decent idea.....
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Lars Lodar
Blood Corsair's
Blood Blind
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Posted - 2008.03.20 07:49:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Vrikshaka
In order to ensure that the interests of Eve's three major zones (hisec, lowsec, 0.0) are equally represented, you should reserve a certain number of player representative spots for each zone.
Lowsec should have at least one representative guaranteed in the CSM (10% of Eve inhabitants, according to QEN demographics). This player should have to be -10.0 
Too true.
Low sec needs a little lovin'. As it stands now, low sec is hardly an intermediate between high sec and 0.0 in terms of the ability to make isk, safety, and content.
It'd be great to see some more low sec specific content to pull make it more attractive.
Join Blood Corsair's |
Serenity Steele
Dynamic Data Distribution
Ministry of Information
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Posted - 2008.03.20 08:15:00 -
[116]
Great to see this come to fruition.
If the round-table discussions at FanFest are anything to go by, the greatest challenge for the first CSM members will be to establish a sustainable model and web 2.0 tools for EvE Players to get transparency and real value from the CSM.
The first term can be expected a bumpy ride, both for CCP and the Council. Sounds like hard work and fun. I just might have to sign-up 
≡v≡ Strategic Maps - Outposts & Sov - Alliance Rank |
PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik
MASS
Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service
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Posted - 2008.03.20 08:59:00 -
[117]
Edited by: PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik on 20/03/2008 09:04:14
Edited by: PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik on 20/03/2008 09:02:46
Originally by: Drachtul Tun'Dull
Edited by: Drachtul Tun''Dull on 20/03/2008 03:02:36
Do people here not read the 19 page PDF? CCP doesn't see this as a game. They see it as a social experiment with game-like qualities. They want accountability from the CSM to the player base in an out of game context, to purposefully push back the boundaries of in-game relationships and take it to "the next level." They are pushing to engage beyond the comfort zone we have built up to protect ourselves.
Maybe it is the anthropologist in me. I find it fascinating. CCP is taking this thing deeper than I thought possible.
I found a simular observation from my reading. My RL background involves studies in political sciences, international relations and more prominently as a war historian and I must say that I was immediately tempted to become involved in this process. However, I also agree that the level of disclosure that candidates must endure is far too overbearing.
Simply put, ccp are not in a position to offer the level of protection against probable threat that may or may not evolve out of this disclosure. More importantly, unlike RL comparisons, I doubt that the playerbase is fanatical enough to risk compromising essential rights of privacy and freedom from public scrutiny over this game/social experiment. People grudgingly do so in RL sure, but even the most hardcore gamer would surely be able to differentiate between a RL politician and the CSM delegates.
td:dr?
CCP would be wise to reconsider the level of disclosure necessary for candidates, and consider the implications of such disclosure. I really dont see a need beyond promotional material for this sort of disclosure. Surely an alias would suffice, even if different to the ingame chars, like a nom de plume so to speak.
Issues of safety, privacy and security should take precedence over a good 5 min sound bite.
EDIT: Personally, im not going to get involved at any level beyond observation until the disclosure clause is reexamined by ccp. Unfortunate really as I would have liked to partake in this process, though I doubt id have the time nor political ethos within eve to have much of a chance of winning :)
Peace WithinSo if the theory of relativity is true, shouldn't i arrive at my destination before i warped in the first place?
Neon GhostYou do, but this is compensated for by lag |
Grismar
The Establishment
Establishment
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Posted - 2008.03.20 10:15:00 -
[118]
On the point of passports:
The original point still holds: those of us who have a European Identity Card can travel all over the EU (and Iceland) without a passport. They can pay taxes, vote, buy plane tickets and sign contracts, all without a passport. However, it would seem that they cannot join the CSM without a passport, which means they'll have to cough up the dough to get one just to be eligible.
This problem may be unclear to anyone living outside the EU (including those living in Iceland), but the OP made a good point and CCP should really consider relaxing the constraint 'passport or EU identity card', since they are equal for all relevant purposes within the full Schengen group.
On the point of anonimity:
-Of course- the real life identities of members of the council should be known to CCP and the other council members, for all the obvious reasons, as quoted by CCP. They should also fall under the terms of the NDA and never be disclosed (or confirmed when leaked) to the general public.
This is not about internet anonimity. It's about a virtual world where everyone plays a role (whether it's the role of 'swashbuckling space hero' or 'just me with some improvements'). I bet people who would run, would want players to vote for their character and not the unemployed mom of 2, the soldier on mission in Iraq or the excentric inhabitant of an old folks home.
We have a right to privacy and that right goes right out the door once you disclose your real identity. Of course anyone would be free to advertise their real identity if they feel it gives them an edge, but none of the members should be obligated to do so, for a lot of fairly obvious reasons...
(in case you're wondering: I'm not running and I already disclose my full RL identity on my personal website, I just feel strongly about the rights of anyone who -would- want to run)
Greetings,
Grismar.
Your EVE IGB home: EVE Wiki, Explorer, Navigator |
faxtarious
Kai-Zen inc.
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Posted - 2008.03.20 11:45:00 -
[119]
only ask fro a pic of the pasport....isn't that kind of risky with Photoshop ?
Oh and PS I have a valid passport.
I would love to run for the mission runners
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Tasko Pal
Heron Corporation
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Posted - 2008.03.20 11:45:00 -
[120]
What is the mechanics of the actual vote? Do I just vote for one CSM candidate and the top X of them become part of the CSM? Could someone point me to documentation about that?
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