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Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
97
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Posted - 2012.02.28 00:49:00 -
[151] - Quote
Massive fights aren't common?
For real?
We've been pulling 400 ship fleet fight usually two a day for months. So have XIX, and Goons, ect ect.
I dont know what you think is going on out here.....but AAA didn't kill 10,000 ships camping the ******* Kebers gate in HED-GP last month.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
884
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Posted - 2012.02.28 00:51:00 -
[152] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Massive fights aren't common?
For real?
We've been pulling 400 ship fleet fight usually two a day for months. So have XIX, and Goons, ect ect.
I dont know what you think is going on out here.....but AAA didn't kill 10,000 ships camping the ******* Kebers gate in HED-GP last month.
Good for you. Small gang PVP is still more common - even in 0.0.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
97
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Posted - 2012.02.28 00:57:00 -
[153] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Onictus wrote:Massive fights aren't common?
For real?
We've been pulling 400 ship fleet fight usually two a day for months. So have XIX, and Goons, ect ect.
I dont know what you think is going on out here.....but AAA didn't kill 10,000 ships camping the ******* Kebers gate in HED-GP last month.
Good for you. Small gang PVP is still more common - even in 0.0. -Liang
True and gallente suck at it. To slow to deal with bubbles....and not enough range to fire out of them.
I have equal gallente and mstar skills.....I left my gallente ships in empire because there is no call to use them. |
Voith
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
15
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Posted - 2012.02.28 01:00:00 -
[154] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Voith wrote:Lets make Minmatar ships scale "DIFFERENTLY", their HP and damage is reduced by 90% if there are less than 5 other ships around.
Sound good? If not, why?
You can say "different" all you want, but it is nothing but a pathetic and blatant attempt to reframe the argument now that your ignorance and bias is exposed. No, they scale differently. Nothing else really scales down as well as Gallente does. -Liang Right, so lets nerf the way some other things scale UP!
I mean if it is ok that gallente sucks in fleet, lets nerf the **** out of some stuff so it can't scale down.
All ships now have auto defenders! They will detonate the first 10 missles that would hit a ship every second!
Great idea, m i rite?
CALDARI JUST SCALE DIFFERENTLY!!!!!!! |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
884
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Posted - 2012.02.28 01:04:00 -
[155] - Quote
Onictus wrote:True and gallente suck at it. To slow to deal with bubbles....and not enough range to fire out of them.
I have equal gallente and mstar skills.....I left my gallente ships in empire because there is no call to use them.
Yes, ships get slow when you insist on quad plating and triple trimarking them. Stop that and you'll stop feeling like Gallente is slow. Although I do find it funny that you argue so hard that Gallente sucks against people that fly Gallente when you plainly don't actually fly Gallente...
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
884
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Posted - 2012.02.28 01:05:00 -
[156] - Quote
Voith wrote: Right, so lets nerf the way some other things scale UP!
I mean if it is ok that gallente sucks in fleet, lets nerf the **** out of some stuff so it can't scale down.
All ships now have auto defenders! They will detonate the first 10 missles that would hit a ship every second!
Great idea, m i rite?
CALDARI JUST SCALE DIFFERENTLY!!!!!!!
I'm sure its about as great as your plan for fixing Gallente.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Voith
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
15
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Posted - 2012.02.28 01:10:00 -
[157] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Onictus wrote:True and gallente suck at it. To slow to deal with bubbles....and not enough range to fire out of them.
I have equal gallente and mstar skills.....I left my gallente ships in empire because there is no call to use them. Yes, ships get slow when you insist on quad plating and triple trimarking them. Stop that and you'll stop feeling like Gallente is slow. Although I do find it funny that you argue so hard that Gallente sucks against people that fly Gallente when you plainly don't actually fly Gallente... -Liang Almost as funny as someone from a corp where 90% of their latest "battles" have been on Ammake gates posting about pvp. |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
884
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Posted - 2012.02.28 01:13:00 -
[158] - Quote
Voith wrote: Almost as funny as someone from a corp where 90% of their latest "battles" have been on Ammake gates posting about pvp.
Huh, what corp is that? ;-)
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Voith
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
15
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Posted - 2012.02.28 01:18:00 -
[159] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Voith wrote: Almost as funny as someone from a corp where 90% of their latest "battles" have been on Ammake gates posting about pvp.
Huh, what corp is that? ;-) -Liang The corp you just ditched: http://heretics.eve-kill.net/?a=battles
(PS you can check corp history from the forums now) |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
97
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Posted - 2012.02.28 01:21:00 -
[160] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Onictus wrote:True and gallente suck at it. To slow to deal with bubbles....and not enough range to fire out of them.
I have equal gallente and mstar skills.....I left my gallente ships in empire because there is no call to use them. Yes, ships get slow when you insist on quad plating and triple trimarking them. Stop that and you'll stop feeling like Gallente is slow. Although I do find it funny that you argue so hard that Gallente sucks against people that fly Gallente when you plainly don't actually fly Gallente... -Liang
Incorrect I stopped flying gallente. |
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OfBalance
Deep Core Mining Inc.
75
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Posted - 2012.02.28 01:23:00 -
[161] - Quote
This thread just gets better and better. |
Julius Foederatus
Hyper-Nova
65
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Posted - 2012.02.28 01:43:00 -
[162] - Quote
Noisrevbus wrote:Julius Foederatus wrote: O rly? When was the last time you saw a close range gang of 20? 15? Hell, even 10 guys. People who fly organized gangs of any size don't fly close range because Gallente ships are not fast enough to actually apply dps
This is getting so thick i'm no longer sure how we could possibly get through to you. You repeat an oppinion with blank statements over and over, though you never provide any tangible examples, discuss how or why. Stating blank "short range ships need speed", "close range is what Gallente is for" or "propmods make ships go faster" does not discuss any percieved issues with Gallente. Clearly, examples (killboards, movies), comparisons (listing potential ship-speeds) or reasoning back and forth will not bite - so how can we help you? It's pretty funny reading your statements here when over in the political threads on FHC you have alliances arguing about who made the Deimos rush concept first (in recent eras) , find those public threads i refer to and "your day" will have come. You can also click my name here for older posts i've made on the topic of rush-speed to find links to old movies that detail the concept for you. You can also continue to be defiant and pull some more slogans out, of course, which is nothing less than what i expect at this point. On a related note, with the Gallente- and AF-buffs it's going to be interesting to see if someone pulls off a Gallente-version of the old "Drams and dp Scimis" soon.
Archived thread
This more or less sums up my case as to why Gallente ships are underpowered, close range in particular. This comes from the prebuff times, but nothing has really changed in the analysis apart from the tracking boost and a small speed boost, and it only changes the base numbers to +50m/s with an MWD on and no armor rigs.
Essentially, the whole theory of combat for close range ships, and Gallente in particular, is messed up. You have to get within web range to be able to apply dps. Even with the null buff you're spitting at ranges outside of 10km unless you're using a bonused ship with neutrons, and there are issues with that fit that can be discussed later.
Lets take a sample engagement. Assuming everyone is shield fit, lets take 3x Cyclones vs. 3x Brutixes. Your standard shield Brutix goes 1189m/s, your standard cyclone goes 1311m/s (standard meaning with no prop upgrades in the lows or rigs). The cyclone does around 600 dps with HAMs and 425s (526 using barrage), though you'll do less than that because of falloff, outside of web range, and has 60k ehp. The Brutix does 680 with null loaded in neutrons (this is with 2 mfs and 2 TE, I was generous with the range) and has 49k ehp. Because of the large difference in speed, unless the Brutixes land right on top of the Cyclones and they're not already moving, the range at which the fight starts pretty much determines who is going to win. The Cyclones are going to burn together and keep just inside point range but out of web range, dealing more dps and easily controlling range. The Brutixes have absolutely no chance. The scenario isn't much better even if they get a warp in. If they're lucky they'll get a tackle on a cyclone and melt him quickly, but the others will burn to their effective ranges and start kiting yet again.
Lets change it up and add an overdrive to that Brutix fit. One t2 OD puts the MWD speed up to 1334m/s, enough to catch the Cyclone. But the catch is that you have to drop a TE to do it. The range with neutrons and null with 2 tes is 8.4 optimal and 14 fall off. Take away the 1 te and you're down to 7.2 and 11 falloff. Now if the cyclone is at point range he's applying more damage to you with barrage and Hams than you are with your blasters with null. Even if you can catch a single cyclone, you're going at 23m/s more than he and his buddies are, so all those precious seconds it takes to get in scram range, all of his friends are pounding on one brutix, whereas you and your friends are barely scratching them at range until you get a scram on, at which point his other friends can still hit you while you're whaling on the one cyclone. Seeing that the dps differential isn't that much, and the Cyclone is tanking harder, it doesn't take much guesswork to see who's going to win that fight.
Change the equation to Canes and Drakes on the other side and it becomes even more lopsided. The same comparison holds up in a Thorax vs. Rupture or Vexor vs. Rupture fight. And god help you if you fitted armor. This is a 3v3 fight. Saying Gallente don't scale is an understatement of almost criminal proportions.
Yes you can use other ships to help you get in range, but no other type of ship has to do that. Projectile, missile, and laser boats can all apply their dps within point range without any sort of outside ewar help, be it long webs or long scrams. Gallente are the only ones who have to compromise their fits in order to actually apply dps, and then the nature of the fight and the actual dps numbers themselves on the fits with speed leave much to be desired.
This is where medium blaster ships are at now, and its where they were at before the buff. I've seen it with my own eyes, hell I've lived it every time I play eve. You can use these tactics to overcome these shortfalls but at that point you're relying far more on any mistakes your opponent makes than any inherent strengths in your ship. He has to slow down, not be aligned, get too close to web range, forget to neut you, etc. for you to have a chance in a fight that starts above 10km range. That the Deimos can hit further doesn't make it suddenly the salvation of the Gallente ship line, and the fact that you can barely tank it should indicate otherwise. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
97
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 01:52:00 -
[163] - Quote
Last paragraph sums that up.
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Farang Lo
State War Academy Caldari State
4
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Posted - 2012.02.28 02:07:00 -
[164] - Quote
gallante rocks in wh, eve aint just about 0.0, htfu |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
97
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 02:12:00 -
[165] - Quote
Farang Lo wrote:gallante rocks in wh, eve aint just about 0.0, htfu
Indeed, if I lived in a wormhole that would be one thing.
Many don't. In null and to lowsec Gallente just aren't that hot. So its not a matter of HTFU, its a matter of the best tool for the job. Gallente work for some few applications. Otherwise its needlessly putting yourself at a disadvantage.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
884
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Posted - 2012.02.28 05:55:00 -
[166] - Quote
Voith wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Voith wrote: Almost as funny as someone from a corp where 90% of their latest "battles" have been on Ammake gates posting about pvp.
Huh, what corp is that? ;-) -Liang The corp you just ditched: http://heretics.eve-kill.net/?a=battles(PS you can check corp history from the forums now)
It would be more correct to say that I haven't left No Salvation since I first joined it - Parsec, Lollypop, and even the US TZ Heretic Army were all reincarnations no NOSA. You'll note what timezone didn't camp the Oso gate with Orcas.
Not everything is in a corp history. ;-)
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
884
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Posted - 2012.02.28 05:57:00 -
[167] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Farang Lo wrote:gallante rocks in wh, eve aint just about 0.0, htfu Indeed, if I lived in a wormhole that would be one thing. Many don't. In null and to lowsec Gallente just aren't that hot. So its not a matter of HTFU, its a matter of the best tool for the job. Gallente work for some few applications. Otherwise its needlessly putting yourself at a disadvantage.
Gallente is fine in high sec, its fine in low sec, and its fine in WH space. Its even fine in 0.0 small gangs. The only place where it might have a problem is in 0.0 fleet doctrine.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
97
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Posted - 2012.02.28 06:20:00 -
[168] - Quote
Lol hi sec PvP.....I love hiding behind neutral reps. |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
884
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Posted - 2012.02.28 06:23:00 -
[169] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Lol hi sec PvP.....I love hiding behind neutral reps.
Lol null sec PvP.....I love no brain F1 blob "warfare". Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
97
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 06:48:00 -
[170] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Onictus wrote:Lol hi sec PvP.....I love hiding behind neutral reps. Lol null sec PvP.....I love no brain F1 blob "warfare".
Confirmed I only fly in blobs, and refuse to undock in numbers that aren't triple digit. Never "done" Amamake, or Dal, or OMS, or Otou, Taff either. |
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
884
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Posted - 2012.02.28 06:50:00 -
[171] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Onictus wrote:Lol hi sec PvP.....I love hiding behind neutral reps. Lol null sec PvP.....I love no brain F1 blob "warfare". Confirmed I only fly in blobs, and refuse to undock in numbers that aren't triple digit. Never "done" Amamake, or Dal, or OMS, or Otou, Taff either.
How quick you are to dismiss high sec PVP while you rush to defend your own.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
97
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 07:03:00 -
[172] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Onictus wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Onictus wrote:Lol hi sec PvP.....I love hiding behind neutral reps. Lol null sec PvP.....I love no brain F1 blob "warfare". Confirmed I only fly in blobs, and refuse to undock in numbers that aren't triple digit. Never "done" Amamake, or Dal, or OMS, or Otou, Taff either. How quick you are to dismiss high sec PVP while you rush to defend your own. -Liang
That is because hi sec PVP is a ******* joke. EVERY hi-sec crew operates the same. Park bricked proteus and vindi's on some undock and when they actually DO agress here comes the flight of neutral logi that never leave the docking ring. It annoyed the **** out of me when I was DOING the logi, and it annoyed the **** out me when I was the target, because its just silly really.
It would take a VERY cursory glance at my killboard before you noticed that I primary roam in small gangs, usually under 30 at that VERY rarely do I fly in blob fleets as DPS.
Even then my primary reason for leaving empire what it was pointless. Since for all of their bluster,most piwats sit in station and call you a blobber when you have close to even numbers and then hit you with 3-4 to 1 numbers when they have the opportunity....
....oh wait, this sounds familiar
At least the Heritic guys were always pretty chill, they were fun to smack at, but for the most part I only ever saw them snipe points 200km off the belts and gate. |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
884
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Posted - 2012.02.28 07:18:00 -
[173] - Quote
Onictus wrote: That is because hi sec PVP is a ******* joke. EVERY hi-sec crew operates the same. Park bricked proteus and vindi's on some undock and when they actually DO agress here comes the flight of neutral logi that never leave the docking ring. It annoyed the **** out of me when I was DOING the logi, and it annoyed the **** out me when I was the target, because its just silly really.
That is because null sec PVP is a ******* joke. EVERY null-sec crew operates the same. Thousands of people undock and blob each other and the only skill any of them have is following fleet warps and pressing F1. It annoyed the **** out of me when I was DOING it myself, and it annoyed the **** out of me when I was the target, because its just silly really.
Quote: It would take a VERY cursory glance at my killboard before you noticed that I primary roam in small gangs, usually under 30 at that VERY rarely do I fly in blob fleets as DPS.
30 is not a small gang to most of Eve. Also, I took a look at your killboard again. Very impressive work... squeezing 130 people onto a single Loki! Damn, that's impresive!
Quote: Even then my primary reason for leaving empire what it was pointless. Since for all of their bluster,most piwats sit in station and call you a blobber when you have close to even numbers and then hit you with 3-4 to 1 numbers when they have the opportunity....
....oh wait, this sounds familiar
Are you ******* sure you aren't talking about 0.0 PVP there? That **** is way more common in 0.0 than null sec, if for no other reason than the fact that its actually hard to get 4x as many people in any given system. Overall region populations just aren't that dense.
Basically: hyperbole much?
Quote:At least the Heritic guys were always pretty chill, they were fun to smack at, but for the most part I only ever saw them snipe points 200km off the belts and gate.
What's that? We didn't fight when you brought your 130 people through? Well, who woulda thunk it?! Also, I think I've already posted a **** ton of Heretic videos that show you're just full of **** about them.
-Liang
Ed: BTW, I've had some really good fights in high sec. BUT THATS IMPOSSIBLE BECUZ YOU SAY SO. Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
97
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 07:36:00 -
[174] - Quote
need to add delete... |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
97
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Posted - 2012.02.28 07:38:00 -
[175] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Touched a nerve did I
P.S. the 130 on a loki was a whelp, something like 200 canes against a same sized baddon fleet witih caps and supers on the field. That was fun.
Look back a bit further we go something like 75 rifters on cynabal.
...and 30 is a HUGE fleet?
You need to poke your nose out every so often, because I was flying in fleets that size before I could undock a BC. |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
884
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Posted - 2012.02.28 08:04:00 -
[176] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Onictus wrote:Touched a nerve did I P.S. the 130 on a loki was a whelp, something like 200 canes against a same sized baddon fleet witih caps and supers on the field. That was fun. Look back a bit further we go something like 75 rifters on cynabal. ...and 30 is a HUGE fleet? You need to poke your nose out every so often, because I was flying in fleets that size before I could undock a BC. http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=8595883Never fought in hi-sec either......I still have that very Brutix, first BC hull I ever bought.
No, you didn't touch a nerve really. I'm just pointing out how utterly ******* stupid your own arguments sound. As to 30 being a huge fleet: its not huge but it damn sure isn't "small gangs".
Also: if you've never fought in high sec... how do you know its PVP is a joke? How did the neutral RR annoy you when you were doing it... and when you were its victim? Oh, oh.. the forums told you so!
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
97
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Posted - 2012.02.28 12:02:00 -
[177] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:
No, you didn't touch a nerve really. I'm just pointing out how utterly ******* stupid your own arguments sound. As to 30 being a huge fleet: its not huge but it damn sure isn't "small gangs".
Your words Quote: 30 is not a small gang to most of Eve.
Liang Nuren wrote: Also: if you've never fought in high sec... how do you know its PVP is a joke? How did the neutral RR annoy you when you were doing it... and when you were its victim? Oh, oh.. the forums told you so!
-Liang
You think, just for a moment, that maybe I have been on either side of that one? Situations change, sometimes you are the one getting dec'd and pinned in station. Sometimes you are the one helping allies that are pinned in station...or doing the pinning.
Don't quote me the forums told me that too
Either way I. detest. station. games. Period, I don't like playing them, on defense or offense. I'm a HUGE fan of Logi actually triggering an aggression flag in hi-sec so the neutral logi bullcrap stops.
In the roughly year and a half I have played most of that was in Heimatar/Shinq/Molden Heath and Metro. Null for the most part functions exactly the same way, EXCEPT there are real sharks in the water, and there is no docking up to save your ass usually, your fight it out or hope you can beat their cyno.
Something that doesn't really happen in low, it basically came down to who had the best scouts, and when everyone pretty much lives in ONE system and rarely comes out, it only takes a little while to know who's where with what.
I get a LOT more small gang stuff in Null, that is fleets of 10-25, same thing everyone flys in low. |
Noisrevbus
92
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 13:40:00 -
[178] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote: This comes from the prebuff times, but nothing has really changed in the analysis apart from the tracking boost and a small speed boost, and it only changes the base numbers to +50m/s with an MWD on and no armor rigs. /.../ You have to get within web range to be able to apply dps. Even with the null buff you're spitting at ranges outside of 10km unless you're using a bonused ship with neutrons, and there are issues with that fit that can be discussed later. /.../ Lets take a sample engagement. Assuming everyone is shield fit, lets take 3x Cyclones vs. 3x Brutixes. /.../ Lets change it up and add an overdrive to that Brutix fit. /.../ The same comparison holds up in a Thorax vs. Rupture or Vexor vs. Rupture fight. And god help you if you fitted armor. This is a 3v3 fight. /.../ Yes you can use other ships to help you get in range, but no other type of ship has to do that. Projectile, missile, and laser boats can all apply their dps within point range.
These are still your problems: blanket statements, examples out of context, you try to bridge inherent weakness instead of draw on inherent advantage (to make the ships do things they weren't meant to) and on ontop of that you seem to constantly fall back towards Minmatar in your speed comparisons. If you want to fly Minmatar, fly Minmatar. It's popular, but there are other tactics out there.
What you should think about instead is relative context, role, advantages and composition - that last bit, since you were afterall the one who brought up larger gangs.
So let's walk through your post:
1. Not that much has changed: true, blanket statement. You could make plated Gallente ships go fast before Crucible. So what does fast mean? Well, the vast majority of common ships in EVE do not break 1500m/s. The ships that do are usually ships that rely on mobility (and do so more than you). This is why groups like Hydra still nano and implant Drakes, because you can beat the spread and then draw from your advantages. The average spread is far more important than straight in-class comparisons.
A Deimos for example still goes 1500m/s when it's 1600 plated. If you want to shield and nano it, by all means, but even with an oversized plate the ship is not slow per definition or in a broad context-relative. Is it as fast as a Vaga? Will it catch any other ship that rely on speed with impunity? No, and it's not meant to (enter the Brutix and Cyclone example). It is fast however, and it's fast in it's speed-size relative; that means it's fast among ships that retain similar damage output, tank and utility. The same goes for a Brutix when used in it's right context (in my eyes, the Brutix is probably the best tier one BC).
2. You have to get within web-range: true, blanket statement. As long as it pertains to s/m blasters anyway. Gallente as a race still have options with drones and rails, and Blaster-setup ships can on occassion still draw on these advantages (i give little value to people who argue roleplay reasons for not using rails). Alot of people who complain about web-range or drones try to make their Gallente ships do things they weren't meant to as much as the guy who complains he can't catch Vagas with impunity.
They don't realize how few groups utilize webs in an effective manner, how powerful webs are and they tend to go with Warriors because fast drones is important killing tackle etc. They don't realize for example that when people swarm EC-300's with their Drake-gangs, a Deimos can do the same with EC-600's much better, they usually write that extra bandwidth off and go with two flights of lights because that's staple. They belive they need the lights or that it's better, but it's not purposeful - while it is on a Vaga.
3. Other weapon systems, and the ships that use them have other drawbacks. Why wouldn't you want specific ships in devoted roles, if we're talking about a proper gang? An HML platform have as much to gain from using specialized tackle to get range as a Blaster platform have to crush range. Instead of assuming no one has specialized tackle, assume everyone do. How do they fare then? Most "well organized small-medium gang action" as you put it in your prior post, today, revolve around taking out lynchpins. In some sense it always did, it's just that more people have caught onto it today.
Vagabonds have lost appeal in small-medium gangs because they have a difficult time guarding their own lynchpins while knocking out opposing ones. Yet, they were one of the iconic compositions that first flew in that manner. Nano Vagas always relied on blitzing lynchpins, kiting out isolated targets and wittling your opponents down until you had all your utility left while the opposing side had none, and you could rely on your support and draw on your advantages (speed-disengagement etc). It can still be done, but today they have to open up to greater risks facing gangs composed against them (for example, moving closer to raise damage output to blitz a lynchpin is definately more risky if the opposing team have webs on almost every ship in the gang; or enough stopping-power and damage-projection to cover your approach or are content with pushing you off - so they don't open up to you).
While you say you've never seen small-medium short range gangs, i have seen such gangs and even take out pre-positioned sniper gangs. Does that mean one side made more mistakes than the other, or one side was cathegorically better? Who knows? It's a very extreme example though, since it means taking out a well-composed and reasonably well-flown counter under conditions ideal for them, and it can be done. That should give the example enough leeway to hold weight under balanced conditions.
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Naradius
DEATHFUNK
19
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Posted - 2012.02.28 14:57:00 -
[179] - Quote
Dethbringer1 wrote:Ah yes forgot about drone skills.
Ah, yes...you seem to forget that all races use drones "In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." - Douglas Adams |
Julius Foederatus
Hyper-Nova
65
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Posted - 2012.02.28 15:21:00 -
[180] - Quote
Quick thought before I go to class:
These are conceptual tools I'm using, not 'examples.' They 're designed to illustrate the problems the race has compared with other systems. The comparison applies equally to nano harbingers and canes and drakes, I simply used the cyclone because it is also a tier1 bc.
What is unbalanced is that Gallente has to compromise their hulls pretty hard to be able to compete with other setups. Drakes don't need specialized tackle, neither do Canes, or even really harbingers (though it certainly doesn't hurt). All because of the inherent strengths in their hull. You must have a specialized tackler in a close range blaster gang to even have a chance. I know this because I run these sort of fleets, I'm well aware that small gang pvp is about taking out lynchpins.
I don't care if you can't catch Vagas, vagas have a specific role of fast outriders. What I do care about is not being able to catch another BC that forms the main dps of the opposing gang, without compromising your ship so much that you should have just brought something else in the first place. Talking about hacs really misses the point because HACs each have their specialized roles and which aren't meant to correspond with another race's hacs. That is not as much the case with standard line BCs and cruisers.
The issue is still that the fundamental philosophy behind blaster pvp is flawed. You cannot have the shortest range weapons system and not be the fastest race. It does not make sense on a basic level.
You seem to believe this fallacy that if you can get the ships to perform well with the right amount of tactics and coordination and proper ship fittings that they are balanced. That's not balance. Balance is when each ship performs adequately when put in the hands of a player with average skills. You can't balance a game based on the most skilled players, otherwise you bone everyone else down the chain. |
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