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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.25 21:06:00 -
[421]
Originally by: Semkhet
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Semkhet
Aahhh. OK, if you don't even have the common sense to order your tacklers not to follow nanos far out then there's really nothing left I can do for you...
Fine, they don't follow the nano ships warp away, and none die, you still didn't kill them.
And conveniently forget that they couldn't kill you either. You dare talking about balance when looking at things under that precise mindset ? Do you consider that anything you set your eyes on should be prone to destruction ?
No. Do you conveniently forget the arguments for the other side? Why yes, yes you do.
See, the problem with speed fit gangs is that in the situations where they cannot win, they also cannot lose. Take your RR gang for example. It runs into a smaller gang, it wins, it runs into a similar sized gang it might win, it might lose, it runs into a bigger gang, it dies. But when things are going bad, it cannot simply decide to stop fighting and take no losses and run away.
Now take a nano gang. It runs into a bigger gang, it runs away, it runs into a similar size gang, it runs away[or fights and it might win and might lose, and might just run it things turn bad], it runs into a smaller gang, it kills it. The only gangs that the nano gang cant easily run away from are other nano gangs.
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Semkhet
Spartan Industries Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.25 21:08:00 -
[422]
Originally by: Ephemeron web rigs should be ok, 15% for t1, 20% for t2 side effect should be -10% of your speed
Missile explosion velocity was added to make missiles behave more like guns, part of the "lets make everything the same" movement. Explosion velocity is like gun tracking.
In my book, missile explosion velocity is still way below the mark. I know that RL comparisons aren't opportune when discussing an imaginary universe, but we can't make abstraction either of trivial concepts.
It isn't plausible for a game which pretends to take place in the future to have explosion velocities below what could already be attained by middle-age explosive charges...
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Gamesguy
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.25 21:11:00 -
[423]
Originally by: Goumindong
No. Do you conveniently forget the arguments for the other side? Why yes, yes you do.
See, the problem with speed fit gangs is that in the situations where they cannot win, they also cannot lose. Take your RR gang for example. It runs into a smaller gang, it wins, it runs into a similar sized gang it might win, it might lose, it runs into a bigger gang, it dies. But when things are going bad, it cannot simply decide to stop fighting and take no losses and run away.
Now take a nano gang. It runs into a bigger gang, it runs away, it runs into a similar size gang, it runs away[or fights and it might win and might lose, and might just run it things turn bad], it runs into a smaller gang, it loses a couple of ships and runs away. The only gangs that the nano gang cant easily run away from are other nano gangs.
There, fixed. Nanogangs have to pretty much run from everything assuming competently setup opponents.
Fortunately, most opponents are not competent.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.25 21:13:00 -
[424]
Originally by: Ephemeron web rigs should be ok, 15% for t1, 20% for t2 side effect should be -10% of your speed
Missile explosion velocity was added to make missiles behave more like guns, part of the "lets make everything the same" movement. Explosion velocity is like gun tracking.
No, missile explosion velocity was added because missiles were obliterating anything they were able to hit and it was making smaller ships useless when you were using high velocity missiles.
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Semkhet
Spartan Industries Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.25 21:14:00 -
[425]
Originally by: Goumindong
See, the problem with speed fit gangs is that in the situations where they cannot win, they also cannot lose. Take your RR gang for example. It runs into a smaller gang, it wins, it runs into a similar sized gang it might win, it might lose, it runs into a bigger gang, it dies. But when things are going bad, it cannot simply decide to stop fighting and take no losses and run away.
And what prevents you to wait until most of the gang is aggroing while you just tank and prepare your jump-out ? It's not like gangs don't fight near gates & except facing overwhelming numbers, a nanogang won't pulverize a rr gang either. So frankly, I'm not trying to b*llsh*t you, I just don't understand why you don't seem to cater on the benefits of not going nanoed to compensate a situation you perceive as unfavorable. You seem to analyze everything in black and white, forgetting all the grayish shades in between.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.25 21:14:00 -
[426]
Originally by: Gamesguy
There, fixed. Nanogangs have to pretty much run from everything assuming competently setup opponents.
Fortunately, most opponents are not competent.
that is just a flat out lie
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.25 21:15:00 -
[427]
Originally by: Semkhet
Originally by: Ephemeron web rigs should be ok, 15% for t1, 20% for t2 side effect should be -10% of your speed
Missile explosion velocity was added to make missiles behave more like guns, part of the "lets make everything the same" movement. Explosion velocity is like gun tracking.
In my book, missile explosion velocity is still way below the mark. I know that RL comparisons aren't opportune when discussing an imaginary universe, but we can't make abstraction either of trivial concepts.
It isn't plausible for a game which pretends to take place in the future to have explosion velocities below what could already be attained by middle-age explosive charges...
Now i know you are a fool. Balance for balance sake, not realism.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.25 21:20:00 -
[428]
Originally by: Semkhet
Originally by: Goumindong
See, the problem with speed fit gangs is that in the situations where they cannot win, they also cannot lose. Take your RR gang for example. It runs into a smaller gang, it wins, it runs into a similar sized gang it might win, it might lose, it runs into a bigger gang, it dies. But when things are going bad, it cannot simply decide to stop fighting and take no losses and run away.
And what prevents you to wait until most of the gang is aggroing while you just tank and prepare your jump-out ? It's not like gangs don't fight near gates & except facing overwhelming numbers, a nanogang won't pulverize a rr gang either. So frankly, I'm not trying to b*llsh*t you, I just don't understand why you don't seem to cater on the benefits of not going nanoed to compensate a situation you perceive as unfavorable. You seem to analyze everything in black and white, forgetting all the grayish shades in between.
So you wait until the superior force pummels you into the ground before attempting to jump out?
Genius.
No, it still falls to the same problem. The speed fit ships do not take nearly the same risks the tanked ships do.
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Semkhet
Spartan Industries Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.25 21:23:00 -
[429]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Semkhet
Originally by: Ephemeron web rigs should be ok, 15% for t1, 20% for t2 side effect should be -10% of your speed
Missile explosion velocity was added to make missiles behave more like guns, part of the "lets make everything the same" movement. Explosion velocity is like gun tracking.
In my book, missile explosion velocity is still way below the mark. I know that RL comparisons aren't opportune when discussing an imaginary universe, but we can't make abstraction either of trivial concepts.
It isn't plausible for a game which pretends to take place in the future to have explosion velocities below what could already be attained by middle-age explosive charges...
Now i know you are a fool. Balance for balance sake, not realism.
If you take a representative set of individuals and ask them to draw something they never saw, you will find out that all those who draw something concrete end up drawing an extrapolation of a known object, and the other ones just draw garbage. It is extremely difficult to forget what you already know.
Immersion often is the result of tension, interest and plausibility. This is the precise context were I refer when considering that a Sci-Fi game should at least present items which behave better than what existed centuries ago. Following your opinion, we could as well turn all our shiny ships into biplanes with strange properties.
I wonder how many players would find it cool...
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Semkhet
Spartan Industries Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.25 21:27:00 -
[430]
Originally by: Goumindong
So you wait until the superior force pummels you into the ground before attempting to jump out?
Genius.
No, it still falls to the same problem. The speed fit ships do not take nearly the same risks the tanked ships do.
LOL. I begin to think that you might be a lost case... It's that difficult to tank a nanogang which has most of the lows fitted with OD's and istabs instead of damage mods ?
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Lord WarATron
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.25 21:31:00 -
[431]
Originally by: Semkhet I don't think that you can accuse me of misinterpreting, specially since I don't see which kind of benefit I would draw by intentionally misunderstanding anything. But if you didn't mean it that way, then I will certainly not insist it was your intent, I guess we are adults here
There is a difference between giving a opinion on what might happen amount two different things (such as post 359 and the post you quoted), and "absolute centainty of a incoming nanonerf". I am saying events A or B will happen. You then claim that I am saying "event B is going to happen with absolute certianty". Thats two different things altogether.
Anyhow its all moot. People moaned about nos, CCP looked and nos and nerfed it. Amarr sucks so people make piles of threads and CCP look at Amarr then Amarr get a boost. Titans overpowered so people make posts and it is nerfed. I remember hearing Zulupark saying that he was looking at nanos so take a guess what is going to happen.
But forget about all that and try putting yourselfs into the shoes of someone who does not fly nanoships. How would you focus on making more than 98% of conventional ships being able to counter a nanoship?
But I do not see why anyone has not given a proper answer to my question in post 359 and in other posts such as......
1. How do you feel about web scripts giving lower powerd webs, such as 37.5% t1 20km webs(45% for t2) To balance nanogangs? 2. If its ok for a rapier to have 30km+ webbing power with a 90% web, whats wrong with a 20km t2 web with 45% power? 3. Why do you beleive is it acceptable to have a counter stratagy more complicated than the original stratagy when all theories of game design and logic go against this? 4. What would you suggest to enable the current 98% of conventional combat ships the ability to deal with nano's? --
Billion Isk Mission |
Dianeces
Repo Industries R.E.P.O.
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Posted - 2008.03.25 21:41:00 -
[432]
Originally by: Lord WarATron
Originally by: Semkhet I don't think that you can accuse me of misinterpreting, specially since I don't see which kind of benefit I would draw by intentionally misunderstanding anything. But if you didn't mean it that way, then I will certainly not insist it was your intent, I guess we are adults here
There is a difference between giving a opinion on what might happen amount two different things (such as post 359 and the post you quoted), and "absolute centainty of a incoming nanonerf". I am saying events A or B will happen. You then claim that I am saying "event B is going to happen with absolute certianty". Thats two different things altogether.
Anyhow its all moot. People moaned about nos, CCP looked and nos and nerfed it. Amarr sucks so people make piles of threads and CCP look at Amarr then Amarr get a boost. Titans overpowered so people make posts and it is nerfed. I remember hearing Zulupark saying that he was looking at nanos so take a guess what is going to happen.
But forget about all that and try putting yourselfs into the shoes of someone who does not fly nanoships. How would you focus on making more than 98% of conventional ships being able to counter a nanoship?
But I do not see why anyone has not given a proper answer to my question in post 359 and in other posts such as......
1. How do you feel about web scripts giving lower powerd webs, such as 37.5% t1 20km webs(45% for t2) To balance nanogangs? 2. If its ok for a rapier to have 30km+ webbing power with a 90% web, whats wrong with a 20km t2 web with 45% power? 3. Why do you beleive is it acceptable to have a counter stratagy more complicated than the original stratagy when all theories of game design and logic go against this? 4. What would you suggest to enable the current 98% of conventional combat ships the ability to deal with nano's?
You forgot to mention you used to be an ex-Snake nano pilot.
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Call'Da Poleece
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.03.25 21:42:00 -
[433]
What is the fastest explosion velocity attainable with skills/implants/rigs/ships? Is there any missle that can do significant damage to a ship doing 5km/s (assume massive sig radius)? |
Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.25 21:52:00 -
[434]
Originally by: Semkhet
Originally by: Goumindong
So you wait until the superior force pummels you into the ground before attempting to jump out?
Genius.
No, it still falls to the same problem. The speed fit ships do not take nearly the same risks the tanked ships do.
LOL. I begin to think that you might be a lost case... It's that difficult to tank a nanogang which has most of the lows fitted with OD's and istabs instead of damage mods ?
Who says its a nano gang? Why not a larger battleship gang, clearly you think they are worth flying for roaming...
Also, nano gangs don't have that little DPS. The Zealots and cerbs and ishtars will be plenty and since you are on the gate and not aggressing you will not be able to pull the smartbomb trick[gate makes it not work + aggression]. Your ECM and and specialty ships are going to get split from the gang or killed and then they can hound your stragglers.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.25 21:53:00 -
[435]
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece What is the fastest explosion velocity attainable with skills/implants/rigs/ships? Is there any missle that can do significant damage to a ship doing 5km/s (assume massive sig radius)?
Precision lights can get a very high explosion velocity but they won't be doing much DPS.
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Gamesguy
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.25 21:55:00 -
[436]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Gamesguy
There, fixed. Nanogangs have to pretty much run from everything assuming competently setup opponents.
Fortunately, most opponents are not competent.
that is just a flat out lie
Bull****. Give me a huginn, a guardian, a falcon, and a couple of bs with neuts/RR fitted, and I'll show you a 10 man nanogang that has to run away.
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Call'Da Poleece
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.03.25 22:03:00 -
[437]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece What is the fastest explosion velocity attainable with skills/implants/rigs/ships? Is there any missle that can do significant damage to a ship doing 5km/s (assume massive sig radius)?
Precision lights can get a very high explosion velocity but they won't be doing much DPS.
So that leaves heavies/hams and cruise missles for anti nano gang work ... I think I got a precision heavy missle going at ~7200m/s ...but its explosion velocity was only 1500m/s or something like that.
So that would be a possible solution, make some kind of heavy missle have a crazy high velocity and explosion velocity ... obviously it would have to have a suitable drawback, but it would give some of the missle users a chance to drive off a nano ship |
Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.25 22:09:00 -
[438]
Originally by: Gamesguy
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Gamesguy
There, fixed. Nanogangs have to pretty much run from everything assuming competently setup opponents.
Fortunately, most opponents are not competent.
that is just a flat out lie
Bull****. Give me a huginn, a guardian, a falcon, and a couple of bs with neuts/RR fitted, and I'll show you a 10 man nanogang that has to run away.
Cool, show me a 20 man nano gang that has to run away. The nano gang has to run from competent smaller gangs remember...
No, it doesn't, it volleys the ships that are dangerous then disengages if things get bad.
P.S. Huginn is a nano ship, and as such is kinda a problem with the whole "not using nano-ships to counter the nano-gang"
That being said.
2 falcons, 2 rapiers, 5 Zealots or Cerberuses, and a claymore. Will jam the small ships, overload points[if necessary] while killing the huginn, guardian, and falcon, staying out of neut range then getting to work on the battleships.
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Semkhet
Spartan Industries Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.25 22:18:00 -
[439]
Edited by: Semkhet on 25/03/2008 22:20:01
Originally by: Goumindong Who says its a nano gang? Why not a larger battleship gang, clearly you think they are worth flying for roaming...
Also, nano gangs don't have that little DPS. The Zealots and cerbs and ishtars will be plenty and since you are on the gate and not aggressing you will not be able to pull the smartbomb trick[gate makes it not work + aggression]. Your ECM and and specialty ships are going to get split from the gang or killed and then they can hound your stragglers.
Ahhh. Finally, here we go.
Mr. Goumindong wants an universal setup allowing him to cope with every kind of opponent. Sorry bud, nobody said that life should be that easy.
And yes, I certainly consider rr bs gangs worth of roaming, although warping around with the agility proper to 250K effective hp boats is a good introduction to confucianism.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.25 22:26:00 -
[440]
Originally by: Semkhet
Ahhh. Finally, here we go.
Mr. Goumindong wants an universal setup allowing him to cope with every kind of opponent. Sorry bud, nobody said that life should be that easy.
And yes, I certainly consider rr bs gangs worth of roaming, although warping around with the agility proper to 250K effective hp boats is a good introduction to confucianism.
No universal setup.
What does your RR gang do when it runs into a bigger and badder RR gang?
What does it do when you runs into a bigger and badder nano gang?
In both instances it dies, but if it runs into a smaller or equal nano gang the nano gang runs away.
Do you still fail to see why this is bad?
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Bad Borris
Dragons Of Redemption Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.25 22:27:00 -
[441]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Gamesguy
There, fixed. Nanogangs have to pretty much run from everything assuming competently setup opponents.
Fortunately, most opponents are not competent.
that is just a flat out lie
Thats no lie lol. If alliance 'T' can field a 20 man fleet of nano-ships with competant pilots then why is it unbalanced to expect the defending fleet to be composed of ships which do well against nano-gangs instead of a blob of crap with no cordination or discernable fleet design? Pilot error... people making dumb ass choices are nano-gang meat and drink and tbh that is by design.
There comes a point in the game that the attacking gang is simply better at what they do... Being caldari, i dont consider myself to be a nano-pilot or pretend to be awsome at pvp but I do make sure my cerb is fast and relatively agile since imo this gives my ship the most survivability and versatility when roaming around.
What on earth makes people think that just because they have undocked a much larger gang of people and warped it on top of a nano-gang that they should automatically slaughter everyone in the opposing nano-gang? Some of the things being proposed in this thread would result in exactly that imo. How much fun do u think it would be to have to sit there and watch while a few drakes and a thorax slug away at you're 150mil+ hac while having no effective counter and little survivability.
Defenders get the advantage of numbers, nano-gangs get the advantage of choosing whether or not to engage. There is enough versatility in the ships within eve for the defender to prepare accordingly and enough ways to force an unfavorable engagement on the nano-gang.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.25 22:34:00 -
[442]
What do you do when the nano gangs have more than you?
That the nano-gangs are able to outmaneuver a heavier force is not a big problem: That when the heavier force does catch them it cannot kill them IS a problem.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.25 22:36:00 -
[443]
Originally by: Semkhet Mr. Goumindong wants an universal setup allowing him to cope with every kind of opponent. Sorry bud, nobody said that life should be that easy.
Such setups exist. Perhaps we can help him by providing a cookie cutter nano setup?
Pick a nano ship out of the hat. Who here cannot guess 95% of the mods and shortlist the rest? There are very few nanoship builds, yet they do fine. They don't require wildly different builds depending on what they might fight.
One of the joys of using nanos versus even ceptors is because there is less to think about for fittings. Add sensor boosters for gate camps. Switch t2 for faction for amusement.
As you yourself say, at least rr bs gangs have the downside of mobility.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.25 22:38:00 -
[444]
Originally by: Semkhet
I only see that you seem to consider using scouts ahead and behind your gang as an exotic concept. There are enough ways in EvE to gather intel. That you fail at this shouldn't warrant a nerf to a fighting style you dislike.
So what you are saying is that you never run into an enemy you can't deal with?
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Alek Row
Silent Step
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Posted - 2008.03.25 22:39:00 -
[445]
Edited by: Alek Row on 25/03/2008 22:40:08
Originally by: Lord WarATron
1. How do you feel about web scripts giving lower powerd webs, such as 37.5% t1 20km webs(45% for t2) To balance nanogangs? 2. If its ok for a rapier to have 30km+ webbing power with a 90% web, whats wrong with a convention ship having a 20km t2 web script with 45% power? 3. Why do you beleive is it acceptable to have a counter stratagy more complicated than the original stratagy when all theories of game design and logic go against this? 4. What would you suggest to enable the current 98% of conventional combat ships the ability to deal with nano's?
How many nano ships would that change *nerf*? Can't agree with that ideia, that would nerf the nano ship that really doesn't deserve to be nerfed. Not only that but you would be nerfing all blaster and AC ships that need to get close to make some damage. Neanwhile, nano ships that use drones, missiles and medium range weapons as their main weapon system will still be the nano ships you dislike so much.
Better nerf rigs *or/and* speed modules stacking *or/and* implants first, and see what happens.
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Semkhet
Spartan Industries Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.25 22:49:00 -
[446]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Semkhet
I only see that you seem to consider using scouts ahead and behind your gang as an exotic concept. There are enough ways in EvE to gather intel. That you fail at this shouldn't warrant a nerf to a fighting style you dislike.
So what you are saying is that you never run into an enemy you can't deal with?
Nope. What I am saying is that if you constantly probe your environment it's quite difficult for a gang (even nanoed) to catch you unexpectedly. Scouts give you time to either run away or safespot. And if you get caught with your pants off, you stand up and don't go down without attempting to inflict maximum damage before falling. There's nothing wrong with this as long it isn't the rule since it would mean that you roam around in an irresponsible manner. And last time I checked it was just a game you know...
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.25 22:51:00 -
[447]
Edited by: Goumindong on 25/03/2008 22:52:11
Originally by: Semkhet
Nope. What I am saying is that if you constantly probe your environment it's quite difficult for a gang (even nanoed) to catch you unexpectedly. Scouts give you time to either run away or safespot. And if you get caught with your pants off, you stand up and don't go down without attempting to inflict maximum damage before falling. There's nothing wrong with this as long it isn't the rule since it would mean that you roam around in an irresponsible manner. And last time I checked it was just a game you know...
And when nano gangs get caught with their pants down?
ed: Now you are making the "oh hey its just a game, who cares if its balanced?" argument... heh
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Semkhet
Spartan Industries Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.25 23:17:00 -
[448]
Edited by: Semkhet on 25/03/2008 23:25:15
Originally by: *****zilla
Originally by: Semkhet Mr. Goumindong wants an universal setup allowing him to cope with every kind of opponent. Sorry bud, nobody said that life should be that easy.
Such setups exist. Perhaps we can help him by providing a cookie cutter nano setup?
Pick a nano ship out of the hat. Who here cannot guess 95% of the mods and shortlist the rest? There are very few nanoship builds, yet they do fine. They don't require wildly different builds depending on what they might fight.
One of the joys of using nanos versus even ceptors is because there is less to think about for fittings. Add sensor boosters for gate camps. Switch t2 for faction for amusement.
As you yourself say, at least rr bs gangs have the downside of mobility.
Except that Sacs don't fight like Vagas, that Vagas don't fight like Cerbs, that Cerbs don't fight like Ishtars, that Ishtars don't fight like Zealots, etc, and that you have to synchronize all these merry peeps in a spatial context which changes completely every 10 seconds, and that fire direction must be able to adapt on the fly according to very volatile circumstances.
Unless I'm mistaken, I've the impression that our efficiency ratios don't vary that much regardless if we use caps, bs or nanos. So maybe you could have the kindness of explain this lack of variety from your own perspective ?
Why do you think that an alliance like TRI, which is considered by many as the nanoship wh*re, can align so many caps & supercaps when needed ? Because you don't get anywhere with nanos as soon you must do a serious job.
Nanoships are fun, that's the main reason why many of us fly them. Make no mistake. If we can pimp hacs, we can pimp everything which stands above too since we like to make the best out of what ships can offer.
If nanoships get nerfed, I'm afraid that what will come afterwards will leave way less chances to a target, and I suspect that some antinano supporters might regret their former stance. Without forgetting that all this will come at the price of diminishing the already low level of dynamism involved in EvE warfare.
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Semkhet
Spartan Industries Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.25 23:24:00 -
[449]
Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 25/03/2008 22:52:11
Originally by: Semkhet
Nope. What I am saying is that if you constantly probe your environment it's quite difficult for a gang (even nanoed) to catch you unexpectedly. Scouts give you time to either run away or safespot. And if you get caught with your pants off, you stand up and don't go down without attempting to inflict maximum damage before falling. There's nothing wrong with this as long it isn't the rule since it would mean that you roam around in an irresponsible manner. And last time I checked it was just a game you know...
And when nano gangs get caught with their pants down?
ed: Now you are making the "oh hey its just a game, who cares if its balanced?" argument... heh
When for example you engage a gang on a gate, for whatever reason recall your eyes at the other side of the gate (or don't leave any) and another nanogang unexpectedly jumps straight in the middle of the engagement. S**t happens.
About the comment about "it's a game", I was simply emphasizing the fact that I don't live EvE with the same intensity you seem to invest, don't be so defensive
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.25 23:47:00 -
[450]
You didn't answer the question.
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