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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Goumindong
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Posted - 2008.04.02 00:40:00 -
[1171]
Originally by: Ephemeron "Someone choose"
Or the devs can choose to show that they have balls not to give in to whiners. EVE is a cold hard world and killing shit can be hard. This is a game of challange.
So far all the anti-nano suggestions basically mean "how to make killing easier". People aren't interested in defensive measures to drive off nanoships, they want to kill them. "Easy kills 4tw" eh?
This game is a challenge... unless you fly speed mod'd tech 2 cruisers... then its even ground. http://eve-files.com/dl/154147 Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Vote Goumindong for CSM[/url] |
Ephemeron
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Posted - 2008.04.02 00:59:00 -
[1172]
Gamesguy, even if you change cloak, don't you see a problem with 5 second warp timer?
All the ships with MWD will warp at 5-6 seconds. You really don't see how that upsets current game balance?
And you totally ignored my point that webbed nanoship = dead nanoship most of the time. Do you really see it necessary to nerf the 5% of people who manage to escape web?
And what exactly happens to inertia of ship that has been triple webbed? it becomes more agile than a pod? insta-warp without scrambler? bumping-immunity due to insta-stop?
All these ideas upset current state of balance more than they help.
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Cpt Branko
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Posted - 2008.04.02 01:21:00 -
[1173]
Originally by: Ephemeron
And you totally ignored my point that webbed nanoship = dead nanoship most of the time. Do you really see it necessary to nerf the 5% of people who manage to escape web?
I think he'd nerf everything in the game just to have a easier time.
Also, 'no risk' is LOL - a smartly flown BC is likely to have anything from 10:1 to 20:1 costing maybe 30-35M to lose with premium insurance.
That puts a single polycarbon+falloff rig Vagabond fit at a required 50 to 100:1 ratio - many die before they achieve this, either due to a moment of lag, bumping off a gate/asteroid/whatever, uncloaking rapiers, pilot error (and pilot errors are lethal in that sort of ship, you typically don't get to recover from it), or counter-fitting.
N Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Lord WarATron
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Posted - 2008.04.02 07:20:00 -
[1174]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 02/04/2008 07:21:34
Originally by: Gamesguy In addition, should we nerf cloaking ravens? After all BE uses them to great effect, killing thousands while taking only a couple of losses, even though they're almost always outnumbered.
BE Cloaking Ravens got nerfed to hell over the past year. The reason being was that it suddenly became a unbalanced Tactic.
For those who do not know, the tactic was this. Cloak Dictor in gate would drop a bubble and log/jump. BE ravens that were WCS'ed up and had Dampners, and jav torps would uncloak from 100-200km+ and smash anything not fast enough to get to gate.
Every part of that tactic got nerfed. You cannot log in bubbles and get away anymore, Jav torps can no longer kill Cepters in 1 volley. Dampners are not that good anymore, 100-200km Ravens can no longer fire torps at those ranges. WCS kills off your targating/locking, Cloak does the same.
And that was just over the last year or so. The current version of the tactic that the copycats are using is to use squads of cloak nano ships. Indeed if the current generation of nanogangs started using a cloak as default, then they are harder to kill than the cloaking isk farmers. Should cloaks be nerfed? I perfer no nerf but insted cloaking to give agression. However that is another thread.
Basically history of eve is this. If someone finds a minimum risk pvp tactic, it gets eventually nerfed. As for your suggestion on web, it wont make any difference unless it is a long range web other than make someone who take 15 seconds to slow down take 7.5 and thus warp out quicker. I am pretty much anti-nerf for almost anything, and that counters should come from a boost. -- Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Billion Isk Mission |
IamAcontractALT
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Posted - 2008.04.02 07:23:00 -
[1175]
Originally by: Nhi'Khuna
Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby
So, how do you interpret:
The fastest cruiser invented to date, this vessel is ideal for hit-and-run ops where both speed and firepower are required.
and
Honoring their tradition of building the fastest vessels to ply the spacelanes, they count the Vagabond as one of their crowning achievements.
That thar I believe is what you call a Check Mate... Dudes its in the description, sucker is supposed to be one of hte fastest ships in the game... Durr.
There is a difference between fastest ship and faster than some cepters.
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Cpt Branko
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Posted - 2008.04.02 09:03:00 -
[1176]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 02/04/2008 09:04:03
Originally by: Lord WarATron I am pretty much anti-nerf for almost anything, and that counters should come from a boost.
If they're going to do something, I'd sooner see a nerf then anything else. Why?
A nerf would do less collateral damage on other aspects of EvE PvP then something overpowered like a web buff, unless you too are one of people who subscribe to the theory that after engaging in a fight, someone must die (which appears to be Guom's idea of EvE PvP)
Edit: Vagabonds are fine. They actually can't really do DPS while zooming around thanks to tracking on their guns, and they aren't fit to perma-MWD as a rule/etc... quite certainly the most balanced nano-ship. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
0ffBeaT
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.04.02 12:08:00 -
[1177]
Originally by: Jade190
Originally by: Kia Rash in ne of the inerviews they showed during the tourneys, one of the devs said they were perhaps looking to make all speed and agil mods and rigs have one stacking penalty pool.
that sounded like a good idea.
Then all tanking mods should stack nerf each other (as in, different hardeners, like an Thermal and Kinetic, stack nerf each other). Seriously, tanking is out of control. I've seen a battleship tank FIVE crusiers, it's just not fair.
a battle ship has too stand its ground and cant easly run so tanking/jamming not speed is the way too stay alive in a bs. what other way is there, so yea a battle ship worth 250mil should beable too deal with 3 to 5 crusiers with the skills too deal with it. some of these guys are high rankers and are just tuff in any ship.
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Jade190
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.04.02 12:30:00 -
[1178]
Originally by: 0ffBeaT
a battle ship has too stand its ground and cant easly run so tanking/jamming not speed is the way too stay alive in a bs. what other way is there, so yea a battle ship worth 250mil should beable too deal with 3 to 5 crusiers with the skills too deal with it. some of these guys are high rankers and are just tuff in any ship.
I don't think I can say anymore...... that was just plain stupid.... ------ Fighting stupidity since before you were stupid. |
0ffBeaT
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Posted - 2008.04.02 12:43:00 -
[1179]
Originally by: Jade190
Originally by: 0ffBeaT
a battle ship has too stand its ground and cant easly run so tanking/jamming not speed is the way too stay alive in a bs. what other way is there, so yea a battle ship worth 250mil should beable too deal with 3 to 5 crusiers with the skills too deal with it. some of these guys are high rankers and are just tuff in any ship.
I don't think I can say anymore...... that was just plain stupid....
i dont see why, i spent alot off time in a bs in 00 space and i dont remember running very well form anything other then a bs or bigger. it dosnt take long too lock me down in a frig/cruser.i at lest would like too get a fight out of it. so yea, i would need my tanking i think too stay alive long enough too get help if i can.. you wont too pick on tanking get out there for a bit solo then come back and snuf about it..
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Jade190
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.04.02 13:12:00 -
[1180]
Originally by: 0ffBeaT
I don't think I can say anymore...... that was just plain stupid....
i dont see why, i spent alot off time in a bs in 00 space and i dont remember running very well form anything other then a bs or bigger. it dosnt take long too lock me down in a frig/cruser.i at lest would like too get a fight out of it. so yea, i would need my tanking i think too stay alive long enough too get help if i can.. you wont too pick on tanking get out there for a bit solo then come back and snuf about it..
You obviously didn't get the sarcasm in my first post, which is why your initial reply was unnecessary and down right ignorant. Seriously, nano modules are fine, there is no need to change them. There are counters out there (ENERGY NEUTRALIZERS), use them. ------ Fighting stupidity since before you were stupid. |
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IamAcontractALT
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Posted - 2008.04.02 13:21:00 -
[1181]
Edited by: IamAcontractALT on 02/04/2008 13:22:11
Originally by: Jade190 You obviously didn't get the sarcasm in my first post, which is why your initial reply was unnecessary and down right ignorant. Seriously, nano modules are fine, there is no need to change them. There are counters out there (ENERGY NEUTRALIZERS), use them.
Battlecruisers can neut at 24km? Neut does DPS now does it?
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Anaalys Fluuterby
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.04.02 13:27:00 -
[1182]
Edited by: Anaalys Fluuterby on 02/04/2008 13:30:43
Originally by: mishkof
When comparing crystal, Slave and Snakes sets no other set of implants gives you the invulnerability of the snake set. All I am saking is a little balance be established. I.E more counters to speed, or it gets nerfed.
If you balance based on the absolute highest potential items in the game, you completely destroy fits that don't/can't afford to use them.
Look at it this way; Counters are done to allow conventional fit ships to counter a 12+km/sec Vaga that has T2 Polys and Snakes. How is your 4 month old player in a unrigged Stabber, or ANY interceptor that isn't faction-fitted and Snaked going to have any chance of survival? They won't, and all ships that have a speed bonus are now worthless. Life is now once again who can field the most ships with the heaviest armor.
There is ONE way to "nerf" speed that won't completely destroy it as a valid function of the game; nerf Snakes and Polys. Anything else makes fitting those items mandatory to even be viable.
Originally by: IamAcontractALT
There is a difference between fastest cruiser ship and faster than some cepters. A F1 car is fast. However, a Passat should not be outrunning it on the track.
Uhm, in this case the Passat is your T1 frigate and the F1 is your Poly-Carbed, Snaked and faction-fitted cruiser But the answer is no matter how much money you put into that Passat it can't compete with the F1. Just like a T1 frigate can't compete with a ship that is specifically designed to go fast AND is several steps up the food chain from it.
Originally by: Audri Fisher On the other, the emo tears being cryed in this thread tell me that just because you shoot somebody for a living, does not mean you aren't a carebear
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Jade190
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.04.02 13:29:00 -
[1183]
Originally by: IamAcontractALT
Battlecruisers can neut at 24km? Neut does DPS now does it?
Neither does ECM, bet you want that nerfed too because it pwns your blob. Seriously, If you can't organize your gang to deal with potential problems, DON'T PVP! ------ Fighting stupidity since before you were stupid. |
Mongolia Jones
Vidar Fierd Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2008.04.02 15:14:00 -
[1184]
Edited by: Mongolia Jones on 02/04/2008 15:16:22
Originally by: IamAcontractALT Neut does DPS now does it?
You only need to apply a little bit of high school logic
Given: Nano-speeds decrease dps Nano ships move at nano-speeds Nano-speeds require capacitor Neuts kill capacitor
Therefore: Neuts increase dps vs Nano ships
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Call'Da Poleece
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Posted - 2008.04.02 16:12:00 -
[1185]
Originally by: Jade190 .....because it pwns your blob.....
The thing is, pretty soon the only thing you will see are blobs of nanofags.... already (in some areas), you are far more likely to run into a roaming nanofag gang than a camp |
Ephemeron
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Posted - 2008.04.02 16:16:00 -
[1186]
oh yea, blame the homosexuals!
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Dimitry Kalashnikov
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Posted - 2008.04.02 16:19:00 -
[1187]
I blame A-War and Kaar. Stupid nanophoon video. Did you HAVE to post it?
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Call'Da Poleece
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Posted - 2008.04.02 16:57:00 -
[1188]
Originally by: Ephemeron oh yea, blame the homosexuals!
Tip for all the politically correct peeps, substitute in your mind nanoperson-who-likes-mens-bottoms any time you see nanofag. |
Call'Da Poleece
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Posted - 2008.04.02 17:02:00 -
[1189]
Originally by: Dimitry Kalashnikov I blame A-War and Kaar. Stupid nanophoon video. Did you HAVE to post it?
Mind you I would like to see a video of that machariel that can do 15km/s in action |
Ephemeron
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.02 17:18:00 -
[1190]
I don't get offended over the term nanofag, but if I saw you say it in my presence I'd break your nose, without getting emotional.
I just hate hypocracy, when fags like you call other people fags
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CoLe Blackblood
Transnational Speedway League
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Posted - 2008.04.02 17:29:00 -
[1191]
Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 01/04/2008 13:39:36
Originally by: CoLe Blackblood
I don't really care if he uses a cloaked Domi for ratting, or a cloaked Mach for killing, or whatever. His points are far more in need of looking into than another nanonerf. Get my drift?
Looking into things are not mutually exclusive. You can both look into making cloaking less valuable and making log-off tactics less valuable. In fact CCP is looking into it right now...
E.G.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=729912&page=2#40
Furthermore "another nanonerf" is a disingenuous statement. There have been roughly 5 buffs and 4 nerfs to nanos, since the last real iteration, which was revelations there have been 2 nerfs and four buffs, all of which resulted in a net buff to speed. This isn't even counting the implant and faction module price reductions due to the LP stores, or the t2 price reductions due to invention.
Specifically we want from
Double MWD - NERF Oversided MWD - NERF Istabs - BUFF Rigs - BUFF Polycarbon nerf - NERF Istabs nerfed - NERF Overdrives/Nanos become % - BUFF Overheating - Neutral Drugs - BUFF
Speed is way way more prevalent than it was at the time of 5km/s domis and phoons. in fact, the changes were made and smaller ships got faster than they were previously
I'm tired of this "we've been nerfed so much" bull****. A pre-rig vagabond was going maybe 4km/s, had 20% less hit points and 20% less cap, and would be doing 10-30% less DPS. That made it roughly half as dangerous and twice as easy to kill.
Oh, need i mention that they were selling for 300m a pop back then because you couldn't invent them? 220s were 5m apiece, etc etc etc. And without LP stores, rigs, drug production, and exploration it was harder to make money[unless you owned a high quality plex]
Quit your "another nanonerf" *****ing, because in the past major revisions its been pretty much nothing but buffs.
Ha! I'll quit ***** ing about the ***** ers ***** ing about nerfs when you all stop ***** ing!
You yourself have done plenty in this thread so I apparently am not done. DO you fly in 0.0? or stick to high sec?
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Steel Tigeress
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.04.02 17:37:00 -
[1192]
I'll say what I say in every speed thread.
If speed was supposed to be a viable form of tanking, it would not have been nurfed in missions. But it was percieved to make missions too risk free and easy, just like it is now doing to PvP.
I'ld bet money it gets changed/nurfed in the future.
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Call'Da Poleece
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.04.02 17:39:00 -
[1193]
Originally by: Ephemeron ...stupid post...
nanofag much?
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Goumindong
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Posted - 2008.04.02 18:40:00 -
[1194]
Originally by: CoLe Blackblood
You yourself have done plenty in this thread so I apparently am not done. DO you fly in 0.0? or stick to high sec?
0.0, im rarely in high sec. http://eve-files.com/dl/154147 Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Vote Goumindong for CSM[/url] |
Cpt Branko
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Posted - 2008.04.02 18:44:00 -
[1195]
Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby
Look at it this way; Counters are done to allow conventional fit ships to counter a 12+km/sec Vaga that has T2 Polys and Snakes. How is your 4 month old player in a unrigged Stabber, or ANY interceptor that isn't faction-fitted and Snaked going to have any chance of survival? They won't, and all ships that have a speed bonus are now worthless. Life is now once again who can field the most ships with the heaviest armor.
There is ONE way to "nerf" speed that won't completely destroy it as a valid function of the game; nerf Snakes and Polys. Anything else makes fitting those items mandatory to even be viable.
This is the issue with changing webs/etc/etc. It makes the non-snaked non-polycarbons ceptors/stabbers (and even vagabonds/etc) entirely useless.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Goumindong
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Posted - 2008.04.02 18:46:00 -
[1196]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
This is the issue with changing webs/etc/etc. It makes the non-snaked non-polycarbons ceptors/stabbers (and even vagabonds/etc) entirely useless.
Not if you do it right[and even then it wouldn't make that much of a difference] http://eve-files.com/dl/154147 Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Vote Goumindong for CSM[/url] |
Everyone Dies
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Posted - 2008.04.02 19:38:00 -
[1197]
24km 90% web would really fix this problem. And since EVERYONE can fit them it would be balanced.
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Corwain
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Posted - 2008.04.02 19:43:00 -
[1198]
Originally by: Ephemeron I just hate hypocracy, when fags like you call other people fags
I did not believe you could squeeze so much irony into such a small sentence. Well done sir! -- Distortion| Distortion 2 Preview |
Khatred
ReallyPissedOff Guinea Pigs
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Posted - 2008.04.02 19:46:00 -
[1199]
CCP please nerf nanos and everything else remotely useful for small gang and solo pvp. Then we can get back to complaining only about laggy fleet battles and carebears refusing to leave high sec.
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Corwain
DIE WITH HONOUR
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Posted - 2008.04.02 19:57:00 -
[1200]
Originally by: Khatred CCP please nerf nanos and everything else remotely useful for small gang and solo pvp. Then we can get back to complaining only about laggy fleet battles and carebears refusing to leave high sec.
Nanoships (nanohacs leastways, the few BS still nanoable are an exception) are not the combat to the blob. They do crappy DPS solo cept the ishtar whose drones can easily be killed. The only people they kill solo are ratters not tanked to their damagetypes or untanked ships. They are, in fact, the blob that can run away from the bigger blob. They encourage blobbing both because they are useless alone and also because when they are around you need a 3-1 ratio just to kill a few of em. All the strategies I've seen on taking them out involve 2-3 ships to take out the one nanoed ship. In fact one thread over Rells just proposed a strategy to take out a single Vagabond with 10 ships to support his hypothesis that they are balanced. -- Distortion| Distortion 2 Preview |
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