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Reem Fairchild
Shadow Forces Inc.
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Posted - 2008.03.20 20:58:00 -
[181]
Edited by: Reem Fairchild on 20/03/2008 20:58:32
Originally by: *****zilla
Originally by: Reem Fairchild One person says "you can't hit them, it's God mode" ... "you can but it doesn't matter cause they'll just run if you do" ... they are meant to be good at (running) ... "yes, but you can't hit them, it's God mode".
When folks refer to hitting something, its with the expectation of causing significant damage and popping it. A few battlecruisers with anti-nano specific setups usually isn't significant.
So: 1) You can't hit/kill them, its god mode 2) you can hit them but they'll run if you do
It is enough to cause significant damage. It may not necessarily (depending on the situation) be enough to kill it before it can run, but that is irrelevant here.
Quote: The differences is often distance and angles, both controlled by the nano. With a speed tank the nano can nearly entirely control an engagement. And control risk.
Which is the whole point. That's the one single strength of these ships. Movement and evasion. If they couldn't do that, there'd be no point to flying them at all.
It's like saying: "ECM ships are overpowered because they make ships unable to lock". Well, duh...
I mean, what do you people expect? That 0.0 roaming, raiding, gangs shopuld be done with battleships? Would you, in real life, expect special forces commando type troops to run around in big hulking main battle tanks?
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.20 21:12:00 -
[182]
Originally by: Reem Fairchild
It's like saying: "ECM ships are overpowered because they make ships unable to lock".
ECM makes it unlikely to lock, but not unable to lock. There are reasonable counters that nearly any ship can use without special gangs. Few ships can properly use ECM. The difference between being useful and the next flavor of the month is small.
Originally by: Reem Fairchild ...expect special forces commando type troops to run around...
The issue is when so many special forces are running around, they cease to be "special".
Before invention nanos had more to risk as losing a ship cost quite a bit more. Before nanos became a craze, things were expensive, ships didn't move as fast usually, and pilot skill points were not as high. Now many pilots are working towards perfect navigation skills and t2 fittings are cheap and standard.
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Reem Fairchild
Shadow Forces Inc.
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Posted - 2008.03.20 21:47:00 -
[183]
Originally by: *****zilla ECM makes it unlikely to lock, but not unable to lock.
uh, what?
Quote: There are reasonable counters that nearly any ship can use without special gangs. Few ships can properly use ECM. The difference between being useful and the next flavor of the month is small.
And pretty much all of that holds true in equal degree on this issue as well.
Quote: The issue is when so many special forces are running around, they cease to be "special".
Oh god. We're picking on word choice and taking figure of speech literally now? You know exactly what I meant.
Quote: Before invention nanos had more to risk as losing a ship cost quite a bit more. Before nanos became a craze, things were expensive, ships didn't move as fast usually, and pilot skill points were not as high. Now many pilots are working towards perfect navigation skills and t2 fittings are cheap and standard.
Well, to get any kind of viable speed fit on anything but the Vagabond, as far as cruiser sized ships and up goes, takes quite a bit more than the ship and some tech 2 gear (and even the Vagabond can't do it unless you use up all the low slots on speed mods). I mean, unless you think of a 2.5 km/s ship as being any kind of a challenge to deal with, that is.
And as far as "things didn't move as fast", am I the only one who remembers what inertial stabilizers used to do to ships before they changed them last spring?
So, pretty much all of what you wrote in that paragraph is irrelevant.
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Xaen
Caritas.
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Posted - 2008.03.20 21:59:00 -
[184]
Originally by: Reem Fairchild Well, to get any kind of viable speed fit on anything but the Vagabond, as far as cruiser sized ships and up goes, takes quite a bit more than the ship and some tech 2 gear (and even the Vagabond can't do it unless you use up all the low slots on speed mods). I mean, unless you think of a 2.5 km/s ship as being any kind of a challenge to deal with, that is.
Agreed. It takes a great deal of skills, and then some expensive ass mods.
Do any of you speed whiners have any idea how expensive Polycarbons are? Most of them cost more than pimped out battleships, with zero faction or officer mods.
Besides, the vagabond is still the only one that's really all that fast. - Support fixing the UI|Suggest Jita fixes|Compact logs |
Ephemeron
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Posted - 2008.03.20 22:14:00 -
[185]
Originally by: *****zilla Its what do I want nanoships to be killed by. *Everything*.
Why should we continue to argue with someone who makes that claim? That statement shows that he simply wants nanos nerfed into oblivion, he's not thinking of game balance, he just hates nanos. It's his choice, but trying to convince him of what is balanced and what isn't becomes moot point.
Lets hear from people who actually thinking about the good of the game as a whole rather than people with pet peeves.
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Lord WarATron
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Posted - 2008.03.21 11:12:00 -
[186]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 21/03/2008 11:14:33
Originally by: deadmeet 1. A battlecruiser should not be able to solo kill a HAC... a nano or not... and don't forget you have drones too...
Disagree with you there. In the past, you used a fully t2 fitted HAC or used a t1 cheapist fitted cruiser and HAC's obviously slaughtered t1 fitted cruisers.
Nowadays with tier 2 BC's, most of them are better than most HAC's (granted, they are more agile). -- Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Billion Isk Mission |
Skjorta
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Posted - 2008.03.21 13:39:00 -
[187]
@OP
No.
Interceptors can easily be faster than nano ships, is it safe to assume you've never actually flown an interceptor?
If somebody spends and risks billions of isk on implants and awesome fits to fly a good nano ship, should should damn well have an advantage over somebody who risk less than 20m after insurance. It's by no means an "iwin" button, as nano's have near 0 defense once they are webbed or mwd stops working due to neuts, and the dps isn't all that great either.
I don't fly nano's, but I don't see anything wrong with them. Just get a web on them and they are like isk pinatas.
It's priceless to see the whines tho, you can instantly tell who got killed by one.
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Xaen
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Posted - 2008.03.21 13:45:00 -
[188]
Originally by: deadmeet 1. A battlecruiser should not be able to solo kill a HAC... a nano or not... and don't forget you have drones too...
I think it should be a very good fight, end in stalemate, or be decided by player/character skills. With odds somewhat in favor of the HAC. - Support fixing the UI|Suggest Jita fixes|Compact logs |
Lo3d3R
MAFIA
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Posted - 2008.03.21 14:13:00 -
[189]
NANO should be fixed, lame pvp atm in 0.0. ___________________
Sexy Time: |
John Blackthorn
Foundation R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.03.21 15:31:00 -
[190]
I have 513 kills using my Hugin and 43 losses. I do believe I've earned the right to give suggestions in this topic.
My wallet is jut fine still have several billion isk from my t2 bpo's and invention sales.
I just pointing out that nano ships have immunity to everything except lag and webs. And a com pent nano gang is immune from webs as well because they know to stay 10km from ships and to primary the huggin/rapier.
Small guns and medium guns as a counter? You may get a few shots off on them but these guns have a range issue. Hardly any small/medium guns will hit past 25km with decent tracking that would allow you to hit a nano ship, much less for hardly any damage.
Dominaion web has a loner range and will allow you to reach out and touch a nano but it is what a 70% web? It dosn't do much good imho.
I don't think webs need to be buffed, and I don't think mwd's need to be removed or changed. I do think that nano ships should be slowed down. A few weeks ago I saw a crow doing 31k. It's immune to everything, that pilot zoomed in and out shooting down any frigate size ship while we had quite a few other support ships on the gate.
I think there should be some type of limit's or reduction in speeds. B.s. should do arond 1k m/s tops. Ceptors perhaps up to 6k tops.
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Matrixcvd
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.21 16:02:00 -
[191]
Originally by: John Blackthorn I...using my Hugin.... Dominaion web....it is what a 70% web? It dosn't do much good imho.
really? what huginn pilot wouldn't know a domi web's stats? And who uses 1 web in a huginn?
shocking
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Ephemeron
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.21 16:04:00 -
[192]
Originally by: John Blackthorn I have 513 kills using my Hugin and 43 losses. I do believe I've earned the right to give suggestions in this topic.
My wallet is jut fine still have several billion isk from my t2 bpo's and invention sales.
I just pointing out that nano ships have immunity to everything except lag and webs. And a com pent nano gang is immune from webs as well because they know to stay 10km from ships and to primary the huggin/rapier.
Small guns and medium guns as a counter? You may get a few shots off on them but these guns have a range issue. Hardly any small/medium guns will hit past 25km with decent tracking that would allow you to hit a nano ship, much less for hardly any damage.
Dominaion web has a loner range and will allow you to reach out and touch a nano but it is what a 70% web? It dosn't do much good imho.
I don't think webs need to be buffed, and I don't think mwd's need to be removed or changed. I do think that nano ships should be slowed down. A few weeks ago I saw a crow doing 31k. It's immune to everything, that pilot zoomed in and out shooting down any frigate size ship while we had quite a few other support ships on the gate.
I think there should be some type of limit's or reduction in speeds. B.s. should do arond 1k m/s tops. Ceptors perhaps up to 6k tops
I don't know how you managed to get 513 kills and only 43 losses, some of your statements indicate poor understanding of game mechanics.
Examples: 1) "I just pointing out that nano ships have immunity to everything except lag and webs." - No experienced player would make that claim, because there are also neutralizers, warp bubble camps, and all the EW - very effective in disabling nanoships.
2) "And a com pent nano gang is immune from webs as well because they know to stay 10km from ships" - with overheating becoming common, you can count on dealing with 13km web range
3) "and to primary the huggin/rapier." - First, if you fly a huginn long enough, you should know that it is spelled HUGINN. Second, if nano-gang primaries huginn/rapier of hostile gang, they are bound to lose 1 of theirs while killing the primary. That's because nano-gang DPS is nowhere near the fleet-bs insta-killing power. The huginn/rapier would slow down 1 of the nanoships for at least 30 seconds, giving all the slow ships a chance to web it as well.
4) "Dominaion web has a loner range and will allow you to reach out and touch a nano but it is what a 70% web? It dosn't do much good imho." - Domination web has 90% speed penalty. If you fly ships specializing in web range, you should know at least that much about the game you play.
5) "A few weeks ago I saw a crow doing 31k" - That type of speed is only achievable with maxed out skirmish gang mods on Claymore. Kill the claymore and you drop his speed by 30%. And it's not like ever other crow you see doing 30k, this is a special case, and special cases don't enter the balance equations.
Your personal view on acceptable speed limits is just that - a personal view. We are talking about game balance here, what works and what doesn't, not what you like and don't like.
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Reem Fairchild
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Posted - 2008.03.21 16:13:00 -
[193]
Originally by: John Blackthorn I have 513 kills using my Hugin and 43 losses. I do believe I've earned the right to give suggestions in this topic.
My wallet is jut fine still have several billion isk from my t2 bpo's and invention sales.
I just pointing out that nano ships have immunity to everything except lag and webs. And a com pent nano gang is immune from webs as well because they know to stay 10km from ships and to primary the huggin/rapier.
Small guns and medium guns as a counter? You may get a few shots off on them but these guns have a range issue. Hardly any small/medium guns will hit past 25km with decent tracking that would allow you to hit a nano ship, much less for hardly any damage.
Umm, not true. An artillery Hurricane, even with mediocre gunnery skills, can easily hit beyond 35 km and without using tremor (so no tracking penalty). Not even mentioning ships like the Ferox, Vulture, Eagle, Zealot, ect. ... that can hit way further out than that.
Besides, if they are outside of 24 km range, then:
1. They are outside of tech 2 warp disruption range, so you can just warp off when you start taking damage and then warp back in.
2. The dps from Vagabonds is limited to 5 light drones.
3. They are much easier to track than when they orbit at 20 or closer.
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Dianeces
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Posted - 2008.03.21 17:17:00 -
[194]
Originally by: John Blackthorn I have 513 kills using my Hugin and 43 losses. I do believe I've earned the right to give suggestions in this topic.
My wallet is jut fine still have several billion isk from my t2 bpo's and invention sales.
I just pointing out that nano ships have immunity to everything except lag and webs. And a com pent nano gang is immune from webs as well because they know to stay 10km from ships and to primary the huggin/rapier.
Small guns and medium guns as a counter? You may get a few shots off on them but these guns have a range issue. Hardly any small/medium guns will hit past 25km with decent tracking that would allow you to hit a nano ship, much less for hardly any damage.
Dominaion web has a loner range and will allow you to reach out and touch a nano but it is what a 70% web? It dosn't do much good imho.
I don't think webs need to be buffed, and I don't think mwd's need to be removed or changed. I do think that nano ships should be slowed down. A few weeks ago I saw a crow doing 31k. It's immune to everything, that pilot zoomed in and out shooting down any frigate size ship while we had quite a few other support ships on the gate.
I think there should be some type of limit's or reduction in speeds. B.s. should do arond 1k m/s tops. Ceptors perhaps up to 6k tops.
It's one thing to be a little confused about stuff. Being flagrantly stupid is an entirely different ballpark. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
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John Blackthorn
Foundation R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.03.21 18:14:00 -
[195]
I'm not sure where this topic is going now.. but anyway...
Yes, you typically do use more than two webs on a huggin, I do. But putting in two named webers is a lot of isk to stop a single nano ship.
If a nano can drive away from two 90% webs, I just don't see your point of how two named webers will change that.
I've seen double webed nano's drive away on more than one occation (Trimvirate, have very effective nano gangs).
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L70Rogue
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.03.21 20:50:00 -
[196]
Originally by: Lo3d3R NANO should be fixed, lame pvp atm in 0.0.
QFT
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TheEndofTheWorld
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Posted - 2008.03.21 21:29:00 -
[197]
Originally by: John Blackthorn
If a nano can drive away from two 90% webs, I just don't see your point of how two named webers will change that.
??? What?
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BackdoorGirl
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.03.21 21:43:00 -
[198]
Originally by: John Blackthorn I'm not sure where this topic is going now.. but anyway...
Yes, you typically do use more than two webs on a huggin, I do. But putting in two named webers is a lot of isk to stop a single nano ship.
If a nano can drive away from two 90% webs, I just don't see your point of how two named webers will change that.
I've seen double webed nano's drive away on more than one occation (Trimvirate, have very effective nano gangs).
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I's are 90% webs.
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Matrixcvd
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.21 21:44:00 -
[199]
Originally by: John Blackthorn I'm not sure where this topic is going now.. but anyway...
Yes, you typically do use more than two webs on a huggin, I do. But putting in two named webers is a lot of isk to stop a single nano ship.
If a nano can drive away from two 90% webs, I just don't see your point of how two named webers will change that.
I've seen double webed nano's drive away on more than one occation (Trimvirate, have very effective nano gangs).
Guy, stop talkin, you clearly are clueless.... you don't even make sense
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Gamesguy
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.21 22:54:00 -
[200]
Edited by: Gamesguy on 21/03/2008 22:57:24
Originally by: John Blackthorn I'm not sure where this topic is going now.. but anyway...
Yes, you typically do use more than two webs on a huggin, I do. But putting in two named webers is a lot of isk to stop a single nano ship.
If a nano can drive away from two 90% webs, I just don't see your point of how two named webers will change that.
I've seen double webed nano's drive away on more than one occation (Trimvirate, have very effective nano gangs).
You're a huginn pilot that doesn't know what the stats of the domi web and t1 named webs are?
EDIT:You lost a huginn to a solo rapier. This is just LOL, how in the world do you lose a huginn, to a solo rapier? I'd suggest you learn how to fly your ships.
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Macedon Jankolas
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Posted - 2008.03.22 00:35:00 -
[201]
I have been in 0.0 space ALOT under my years in EVE, and i can say that this nano fitted ships f**** up the game!
How could CCP be sooooo slow to nerf them? It seems EVE gets more and more construced around all the noobs, alliances and no skilled players. I have been in syndicate for the last weeks now (MAFIA:s old home) and you "never" get a good figth(!?)
9/10 times you bumb in to nano ships, so even when you buble them, scramble them or web them (!!!!) they just nano their a** out. Whats the point to be in 0.0 space if the only figths you can figth are those when you get outnumbered, or when you get atacked from nano fitted ships that you cant hit, and when you do and they are on their way to die they just "nano-out" from you.
I MEAN WTF!!! The only pvp in 0.0 seems to be POS wars, or "noob wars" , their the noobs runs from you, and only figths back when they are 3/1 (like today).
Get a f***** grip of the game CCP and start to fix this game as it was befor, when we could get some good pvp in 0.0 space without beeing in one alliance.
test tets test |
L70Rogue
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.03.22 00:48:00 -
[202]
Originally by: Macedon Jankolas I have been in 0.0 space ALOT under my years in EVE, and i can say that this nano fitted ships f**** up the game!
How could CCP be sooooo slow to nerf them? It seems EVE gets more and more construced around all the noobs, alliances and no skilled players. I have been in syndicate for the last weeks now (MAFIA:s old home) and you "never" get a good figth(!?)
9/10 times you bumb in to nano ships, so even when you buble them, scramble them or web them (!!!!) they just nano their a** out. Whats the point to be in 0.0 space if the only figths you can figth are those when you get outnumbered, or when you get atacked from nano fitted ships that you cant hit, and when you do and they are on their way to die they just "nano-out" from you.
I MEAN WTF!!! The only pvp in 0.0 seems to be POS wars, or "noob wars" , their the noobs runs from you, and only figths back when they are 3/1 (like today).
Get a f***** grip of the game CCP and start to fix this game as it was befor, when we could get some good pvp in 0.0 space without beeing in one alliance.
Seriously where can you get a good fair fight these days?
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Tarron Sarek
Cadien Cybernetics
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Posted - 2008.03.22 01:07:00 -
[203]
Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 22/03/2008 01:11:40
Originally by: Everyone Dies 1. - Overdrives: Change the cargo capacity penalty to an inertia penalty. This would prevent ships from beeing agile and fast at the same time
Simple and ingenious. And so.. obvious. I fully approve of it. Perhaps keep a bit of the cargo penalty.
The second thing that needs to be done is bring Polycarbon rigs in line with other speed rigs. It simply doesn't make sense that a Polycarbon rig reduces mass by 2.5% more than a Nanofiber II (-15% : -12.5%) while an Auxiliary Thruster rig is only half as effective as an Overdrive II (+10% : +20%). Hence the obvious Polycarbon + Overdrive combo. Something's wrong there. Both should be at roughly 75% of the T2 module's stats: -9.5% Mass and +15% Speed.
Those two changes would already make things a lot more reasonable and curb the extremes.
___________________________________ - Balance is power, guard it well -
Please stop using the word 'nerf' Nothing spells 'incompetence' or 'don't take me serious' like those four letters |
Matrixcvd
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.22 01:14:00 -
[204]
well this thread has devolved into a pile of useless sh1t... next moron to say they fly nanoships should just think twice about poasting... this is getting comical
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Wang Chaupang
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Posted - 2008.03.22 01:29:00 -
[205]
NERF NANO, TANK & SPANK = EVE, not bzzzzzzzzz bzzzzzzzzz cant catch me no matter your bubbles, webbers, scramblers
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Chr0nosX
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Posted - 2008.03.22 01:43:00 -
[206]
The problem is if you kill nano ships you kill small gang PvP in 0.0.
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Terazuk
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Posted - 2008.03.22 01:49:00 -
[207]
Originally by: Lo3d3R
Its not an easy game when normal game mechanics prohibit you from having normal game experience, nano-ships have gotten out of hand big time, we would need webifier bubbles to engage in normal pvp.
Normal game mechanics do not prohibit a damn thing, even when facing a nano gang vs your T1 shoddy gang. You just need sense and tactical awareness along with a healthy dose of organization.
Trouble is people emit a dour, 'urgh nanooos' and completely give up any semblance of resistance or just get target fixated and wonder why their plated BC can't catch a vaga going 7000 m/s.
Admit it.. you just suck badly at Eve. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
Tassill
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Posted - 2008.03.22 02:03:00 -
[208]
/Signed for the op
Nano cruisers (hac's and recons) and up have removed the need for smaller frigates (intys eaf)
Nano cruisers have removed a large part of tactics in pvp (no need to control the starting range of a fight if u can cover any range in seconds)
lastly nano cruisers have made the game booring and predictable Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
Terazuk
Rogen's Heroes
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Posted - 2008.03.22 02:07:00 -
[209]
Edited by: Terazuk on 22/03/2008 02:07:00
Originally by: Tassill /Signed for the op
Your stuff, give it to me now.
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Matrixcvd
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.22 02:09:00 -
[210]
Originally by: Tassill /Signed for the op
Nano cruisers (hac's and recons) and up have removed the need for smaller frigates (intys eaf)
Nano cruisers have removed a large part of tactics in pvp (no need to control the starting range of a fight if u can cover any range in seconds)
lastly nano cruisers have made the game booring and predictable
this is a pile of horse sh1t. if anything they have increased tactics as you can move more freely in combat, different levels of the fight are happening all around you. there is more stuff you need to be aware of. Inty's and frigs need SUPPORT! They are still the kings of speed but need log, ewar to sustain themselves, that adds discipline and difficulty to a complex game and YOU NEED TO LEARN HOW TO FLY YOUR SHIP FIRST THEN GET A GOOD FC
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