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Complete Smartbomb overhaul

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Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.03.20 20:28:00 - [1] Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 20/03/2008 20:42:37 Lets face it, Smartbombs are cool, a thing that goes æboomÆ damaging everything around your ship, but not your ship itself. Having said that, they are the one weapon system that has seen no changes at all, aside from the recent graphical buff they are well behind the times. So I propose a complete overhaul as to how they work, the æfluffÆ behind why they work, turning them a whole different kind of æcap warfareÆ module... ...Firstly only one can be fit per ship, this is for balance and background reasons (read on). Secondly IÆm going to borrow a real principle (NO WHEY! ) and make them appropriately bomb-like: i.e. closer to the 1/r^3 scaling law. Thirdly they will draw a higher (base) cap use than currently. Smartbomb: This device is coupled to a craftÆs shield generator system, and taps directly into a ships capacitor. By manipulating the power flow to the device, the shield generators can be caused to briefly overload, emitting an omni-directional pulse of varying magnitude, damaging everything in the blast radius. Note: The artificial gravity wells used as navigational beacons on stations and gates cause the wave to collapse if the detonation is too close. May only fit one active module per ship. (i.e it deactivates if in range of a station/gate) So in a nutshell it draws varying amounts of energy depending on itÆs mode of operation, the æmode of operationÆ referring to resulting blast radius and cool-down time. Base stats for a Large EM Smartbomb. Capacitor cost: 400 Damage: 300 EM Blast radius: 5,000m Cool-down: 10 seconds Modes of operation, 1x, 1.5x, 2x, 3x So what does this mean? It means the size of the blast radius, taking into account 1/r^3... 1.5x Capacitor cost: 1350 Damage: 1012.5 Blast radius: 7500m Cool-down: 15 seconds 2x Capacitor cost: 3200 Damage: 2400 Blast radius: 10,000m Cool-down: 20 seconds 3x Capacitor cost: 10,800 Damage: 8100 Blast radius: 15,000m Cool-down: 30 seconds Clearly the 3x Mode is out of reach for a ænormalÆ fitted Battleship (it would empty a huge chunk of the capacitor on a capital ship), unless of course they fit large capacitor batteries. Now the damage may look spectacular, but consider detonating once at 2x mode will take over 50% of most Battleship setups capacitor, and not allow re-fire for 20 seconds (if re-fire is even possible due to capacitor constraints). This adds a whole new vista to the deployment and tactical use of Smartbombs; They can still be used in the 'normal mode' as you would now, filling a spare utility slot. You are still constrained by proximity to gates and stations, so there be no monster explosions going off at station undock points, ganking people who haven't loaded the grid. It adds reason to fit capacitor batteries on ships over rechargers/cap boosters. It gives another reason not to bunch up into huge 'powerballs', where a handful of 'maximum' Large Smartbombs could cause carnage to tightly packed ships. Faction Smartbombs would obviously be tweaked for better efficiency, slightly higher base damage and blast radius. -------------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.03.21 10:14:00 - [2] Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 21/03/2008 10:21:14 Some tweaking of the smaller Smartbombs would be required to ensure mediums in particular do not become a æmust fitÆ module for larger ships. Medium EM Smartbomb. Capacitor cost: 150 Damage: 100 EM Blast radius: 3000m Cool-down: 10 seconds 1.5x Capacitor cost: 506.25 Damage: 337.5 Blast radius: 4500m Cool-down: 15 seconds 2x Capacitor cost: 1200 Damage: 800 Blast radius: 6000m Cool-down: 20 seconds 3x Capacitor cost: 4050 Damage: 2700 Blast radius: 9000m Cool-down: 30 seconds Small EM Smartbomb. Capacitor cost: 60 Damage: 50 EM Blast radius: 2000m Cool-down 10 seconds 1.5x Capacitor cost: 202.5 Damage: 168.75 Blast radius: 3000m Cool-down: 15 seconds 2x Capacitor cost: 480 Damage: 400 Blast radius: 4000m Cool-down: 20 seconds 3x Capacitor cost: 1620 Damage: 1350 Blast radius: 6000m Cool-down: 30 seconds Micro EM Smartbomb. Capacitor cost: 30 Damage: 25 EM Blast radius: 1000m Cool-down 10 seconds 1.5x Capacitor cost: 101.25 Damage: 84.375 Blast radius: 1500m Cool-down: 15 seconds 2x Capacitor cost: 240 Damage: 200 Blast radius: 2000m Cool-down: 20 seconds 3x Capacitor cost: 810 Damage: 675 Blast radius: 3000m Cool-down: 30 seconds The tweak to medium Smartbomb range is to prevent them becoming too desirable to Battleship setups, the idea being to make it more desirable to fit a large, both in terms of cap usage, and blast radius. -------------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Sepheir Sepheron Dead Man's Click Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.21 11:01:00 - [3] Edited by: Sepheir Sepheron on 21/03/2008 11:01:39 I like this idea, I always wanted to use smart bombs but I couldn't cause they blow. Also you could change the smart bomb setting by using scripts. /signed
Stakhanov Metafarmers	Posted - 2008.03.21 16:16:00 - [4] You do realize that a large smartbomb in 2x mode would have the same alpha of a full rack of smartbombs , with the same cap need per volley , but twice the range. Basically free officer smartbombs for everyone. Battleships would suddenly become immune to most T1 frigate tacklers , and combat / ECM drones would become instantly useless. I'm a happy smartbomb user , and I think large smartbombs are well balanced - micro , small and medium need to deal more damage , and skills / implants need to improve blast damage or cap usage instead of RoF , this change would make them more devastating than the old heavy nos. Originally by: CCP Mitnal Locked Whilst we sympathise with your spaghetti problems I'm afraid there's not much we can do
Eleana Tomelac Through the Looking Glass	Posted - 2008.03.21 16:30:00 - [5] Would it detonate before or after the cooldown time? Wouldn't it better to have it charge then detonate? What I am thinking about is that people can fit one medium, supercharge it and totally get rid of any drone around, and even fighters would be hurt really badly. If there's an effect around the ship and you see it will detonate (thus the cooldown becoming a charging time), then you can recall drones in time. And the normal mode with no charging time would still be the way to surprise drones. -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast ! Assault Frigates MK II
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.03.21 17:29:00 - [6] Originally by: Stakhanov You do realize that a large smartbomb in 2x mode would have the same alpha of a full rack of smartbombs , with the same cap need per volley , but twice the range. Basically free officer smartbombs for everyone. Battleships would suddenly become immune to most T1 frigate tacklers , and combat / ECM drones would become instantly useless. I'm a happy smartbomb user , and I think large smartbombs are well balanced - micro , small and medium need to deal more damage , and skills / implants need to improve blast damage or cap usage instead of RoF , this change would make them more devastating than the old heavy nos. It would use 3200 cap for one shot, that's 60% of the cap of a blasterthron (for example). That's nearly 11 times the cap use of a smartbomb currently - closer to 2 full racks, and would be more of a last ditch measure (as you likely wouldn't be able to fire again for a long while), so I don't see it making tacklers or ECM drones useless. -------------- Video - 'War-Machine'
TimGascoigne Imperium Forces Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.03.21 17:34:00 - [7] "make them appropriately bomb-like: i.e. closer to the 1/r^3 scaling law. Thirdly they will draw a higher (base) cap use than currently." lol its 1/r^2 Inverse-square law And you dont see that it is [inversely proportional]! so when Blast radius goes up Damage will go down. so you will need a very larg Base Damage cos the damage will go down very fast as radius becomes grater.
Gabriel Karade	Posted - 2008.03.21 17:43:00 - [8] Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 21/03/2008 17:46:11 Originally by: TimGascoigne "make them appropriately bomb-like: i.e. closer to the 1/r^3 scaling law. Thirdly they will draw a higher (base) cap use than currently." lol its 1/r^2 Inverse-square law And you dont see that it is [inversely proportional]! so when Blast radius goes up Damage will go down. so you will need a very larg Base Damage cos the damage will go down very fast as radius becomes grater. Not all effects scale as the inverse square root, real (thermonuclear) bomb effects also scale as the cube root of the yield. Given the way smartbombs are able to damage everything in the radius equally, I decided to use 1/r^3, it also makes things easier to balance. Edit. Before you try to dazzle me with more of your wiki-fu, do remember Eve and real physics don't exactly sit well together, not to mention the limitations of game mechanics... -------------- Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Video - 'War-Machine'
Stakhanov	Posted - 2008.03.21 20:26:00 - [9] Right , my numbers were off - your suggested smartbomb would have double the base cap usage of current large smartbomb. Still too dangerous as it concentrates the power of 8 utility slots into 1. Marauders seem pretty good with smartbombs at the moment. A smartbomb ship can't really fight any serious opponent , it's a costly specialization. A single highslot module that can 1) squish frigates 2) kill drones 3) squish pods ? Overkill... add a large battery and you can even alpha all light cruisers in range. DDD is restricted to titans for a reason , you know Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Originally by: CCP Mitnal Locked Whilst we sympathise with your spaghetti problems I'm afraid there's not much we can do
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.03.22 08:32:00 - [10] Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 22/03/2008 08:35:26 Only un-tanked cruisers would come close to being 'alpha'd' by a 3x mode blast (noting that this requires an Apocalypse with a couple of large capacitor batteries). Taking a Thorax vs. thermal damage for example; it has 1829 effective shield HP, 2215 effective armour HP, and 1875 structure HP. Put a pilot in there, and one 400mm plate, and it will survive. As I say it adds different tactical options at cost; dumping 60% of your cap in one go is very risky. Do you fire it at the 1x or 1.5x? Or do you keep it in reserve to catch your opponents with a 2x burst once youÆve done some damage with your other weapons systems? Edit: It's plausible for heavily tanked assualt frigates to just survive even the 3x blast -------------- Video - 'War-Machine'

Daggaroth Demio's Corporation Safe And Fun Environment	Posted - 2008.03.22 16:37:00 - [11] i like the idea /signed --------------------------------------------------
Opertone Rulers Of Mankind Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.23 10:14:00 - [12] not bad - smart bombs need a boost and the boost shoudl be in the range of the smart bombs
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.03.25 12:50:00 - [13] Faction (and likewise officer) Smartbombs would probably need tweaking down (either in cap use or blast radius). A True Sansha Large EMP Smartbomb for instance (before tweaking down): Capacitor cost: 260 Damage: 375 EM Blast radius: 7,500m Cool-down: 10 seconds Modes of operation, 1x, 1.5x, 2x, 3x 1.5x Capacitor cost: 776 Damage: 1266 Blast radius: 11,250m Cool-down: 15 seconds 2x Capacitor cost: 2080 Damage: 3000 Blast radius: 15,000m Cool-down: 20 seconds 3x Capacitor cost: 7020 Damage: 10125 Blast radius: 22,500m Cool-down: 30 seconds The question of balance however, should remain with T1 stats, Officer/Faction can always be toned down. -------------- Video - 'War-Machine'
DrDooma 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.03.25 13:20:00 - [14] Cant wait for this one. So here is the plan: 3 BS's are sitting on the gate which are bing repaired by support craft. Whenever anything jumps in, they release smartbombs with 1 second intervals (targeting the gate). So you are DOA due to lag that will be created by the smartbombs. The best part is, 8k DMg will kill most cruisers size ships, 20k most BCs and 30k most BSs. The rest of the damage will come from support craft.
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.03.25 13:47:00 - [15] Great plan, except, if you sit on the gate nothing happens... (emphasis on the italicised part) -------------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.03.25 14:32:00 - [16] Can't wait to get one of these on my carrier. No more worries about getting tackled (if my corp mates carriers has one too) or taking damage from other carriers..... Unbalanced to say the least..... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.03.25 16:23:00 - [17] Originally by: Kerfira Can't wait to get one of these on my carrier. No more worries about getting tackled (if my corp mates carriers has one too) or taking damage from other carriers..... Unbalanced to say the least..... Most tacklers these days operate at 20km+, so no change there. If as with many carrier pilots () you are a station jockey, then these are of no use to you... unless of course you want to risk your carrier outside docking radius (!!), but then do you risk nuking your own fighters in the process too? If this also has the side effect of reducing the dominance of fighters on small battles, then I think most would argue this is a good thing... -------------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Buyerr Hedion University	Posted - 2008.03.25 22:13:00 - [18] i like the idea, but i think they are way to overpowered. fit just 4 mediums and you got a alpha on everything within 9km at 9600, which is more then any other weaponry in the game, and this for medium weaponry :S fitted correctly a full rank of smartbombs, mediums on a bs = alpha hit of 19.200. lets just say you can fit a full rank of large then it is a alpha of 64.800 dmg. which would instant kill almost any normal ships :S more then overpowered, unless there is a "max" one smartbomb on a ship or some extreme penalty for using smartbombs. i think this is way overpowered. I declare war on stupidity
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.03.26 08:26:00 - [19] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Kerfira Can't wait to get one of these on my carrier. No more worries about getting tackled (if my corp mates carriers has one too) or taking damage from other carriers..... Unbalanced to say the least..... Most tacklers these days operate at 20km+, so no change there. Bolded the important parts of my post. FC: "Carriers, orbit each other randomly at 15km. Turn on smartbombs" Originally by: Gabriel Karade If as with many carrier pilots () you are a station jockey, then these are of no use to you... unless of course you want to risk your carrier outside docking radius (!!), but then do you risk nuking your own fighters in the process too? I'm not hugging stations! Carriers are meant for battle. Of.c. you wouldn't turn them on when fighters are out (at least not when they're near you). You'd turn them on when you're preparing to warp out. Second good tactic would be to hotdrop your carriers on a BS fleet, and then turn on the smarties. Boom, no more BS fleet. As I said, unbalanced..... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.03.26 13:01:00 - [20] Originally by: Buyerr i like the idea, but i think they are way to overpowered. fit just 4 mediums and you got a alpha on everything within 9km at 9600, which is more then any other weaponry in the game, and this for medium weaponry :S fitted correctly a full rank of smartbombs, mediums on a bs = alpha hit of 19.200. lets just say you can fit a full rank of large then it is a alpha of 64.800 dmg. which would instant kill almost any normal ships :S more then overpowered, unless there is a "max" one smartbomb on a ship or some extreme penalty for using smartbombs. i think this is way overpowered. Which is why, as stated in the OP, it would be limited to one per ship... -------------- Video - 'War-Machine'

Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.03.26 13:13:00 - [21] Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Kerfira Can't wait to get one of these on my carrier. No more worries about getting tackled (if my corp mates carriers has one too) or taking damage from other carriers..... Unbalanced to say the least..... Most tacklers these days operate at 20km+, so no change there. Bolded the important parts of my post. FC: "Carriers, orbit each other randomly at 15km. Turn on smartbombs" Originally by: Gabriel Karade If as with many carrier pilots () you are a station jockey, then these are of no use to you... unless of course you want to risk your carrier outside docking radius (!!), but then do you risk nuking your own fighters in the process too? I'm not hugging stations! Carriers are meant for battle. Of.c. you wouldn't turn them on when fighters are out (at least not when they're near you). You'd turn them on when you're preparing to warp out. Second good tactic would be to hotdrop your carriers on a BS fleet, and then turn on the smarties. Boom, no more BS fleet. As I said, unbalanced..... Maybe this is what you are looking for. As I said, makes no difference to tackling. Finally you're way blowing it out of proportion, even a semi-tanked T1 cruiser can survive a 2x (i.e. 8x damage blast), to 'alpha' Tanked Battleships you'd need a) them to be sat idling in a tight bunch, b) around 10 carriers with Smartbombs set to max (3x mode) c) Greater than 15km distance from any station or gate. The fact you are dropping 10 carriers worth of fighters on them makes the point about Smartbombs moot anyhow... and if anyone strays within 15km of a station or gate, their Smartbomb doesn't fire, and never will. Not overpowered, just different tactical options. The cap cost is huge and increases as the square of the radius, and to use in 'supercharged' mode you need to be well away from stations or gates, meaning that you are vulnerable if it goes wrong. -------------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.03.26 14:24:00 - [22] Edited by: Kerfira on 26/03/2008 14:25:15 Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Kerfira My post Maybe this is what you are looking for. As I said, makes no difference to tackling. Finally you're way blowing it out of proportion, even a semi-tanked T1 cruiser can survive a 2x (i.e. 8x damage blast), to 'alpha' Tanked Battleships you'd need a) them to be sat idling in a tight bunch, b) around 10 carriers with Smartbombs set to max (3x mode) c) Greater than 15km distance from any station or gate. The fact you are dropping 10 carriers worth of fighters on them makes the point about Smartbombs moot anyhow... and if anyone strays within 15km of a station or gate, their Smartbomb doesn't fire, and never will. Not overpowered, just different tactical options. The cap cost is huge and increases as the square of the radius, and to use in 'supercharged' mode you need to be well away from stations or gates, meaning that you are vulnerable if it goes wrong. Read again, especially this line: FC: "Carriers, orbit each other randomly at 15km. Turn on smartbombs" Even if you stay at range from one carrier, you'll get in range of some of the others. I'm talking carriers, like in plural, like in 20+. These will not be near stations. They'll be at gates or POS shooting people (ie. being in real danger). If they have 15km, 8000+ damage smartbombs, they'll get most of hostile tacklers and enable most of them to get out where they wouldn't today. Have you actually ever flown a carrier? Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.03.27 17:00:00 - [23] Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 26/03/2008 14:25:15 Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Kerfira My post Maybe this is what you are looking for. As I said, makes no difference to tackling. Finally you're way blowing it out of proportion, even a semi-tanked T1 cruiser can survive a 2x (i.e. 8x damage blast), to 'alpha' Tanked Battleships you'd need a) them to be sat idling in a tight bunch, b) around 10 carriers with Smartbombs set to max (3x mode) c) Greater than 15km distance from any station or gate. The fact you are dropping 10 carriers worth of fighters on them makes the point about Smartbombs moot anyhow... and if anyone strays within 15km of a station or gate, their Smartbomb doesn't fire, and never will. Not overpowered, just different tactical options. The cap cost is huge and increases as the square of the radius, and to use in 'supercharged' mode you need to be well away from stations or gates, meaning that you are vulnerable if it goes wrong. Read again, especially this line: FC: "Carriers, orbit each other randomly at 15km. Turn on smartbombs" Even if you stay at range from one carrier, you'll get in range of some of the others. I'm talking carriers, like in plural, like in 20+. These will not be near stations. They'll be at gates or POS shooting people (ie. being in real danger). If they have 15km, 8000+ damage smartbombs, they'll get most of hostile tacklers and enable most of them to get out where they wouldn't today. Have you actually ever flown a carrier? Sorry but this argument is so ridiculously flawed I can't believe you're still pushing it. Carriers move far too slowly compared to every single tackler in the game for this to work. You would always be able to keep carriers tackled outside of the combined smartbomb radius with 20km and 24km disrupters unless your pilots flying the tacklers were afk -------------- Video - 'War-Machine'
DrDooma 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.03.28 15:12:00 - [24] Sorry but this argument is so ridiculously flawed I can't believe you're still pushing it. Carriers move far too slowly compared to every single tackler in the game for this to work. You would always be able to keep carriers tackled outside of the combined smartbomb radius with 20km and 24km disrupters unless your pilots flying the tacklers were afk So what you saying is this ... you can actually fly at 6km per second around 3 to 4 capital ships while they are moving about (slowly) but not get in range of their smartbombs and having points on one of them at all time Now that i have not seen before even with existing smartbombs you will have hard time not getting within range.
Vivien Sureflight Perkone	Posted - 2008.03.28 20:14:00 - [25] Edited by: Vivien Sureflight on 28/03/2008 20:14:43 First off, I like this idea. You might need to tweak the blast radius for balance (because large faction bombs could hit out to close to 30km with a supercharge if my estimation is correct). But as I said, I like it. Also, I agree with a "warm up" time instead of a "cool down" time. This gives people in that blast radius time to get out. Now to the carrier argument: if you have 20+ carriers all launching blasts from supercharged bombs, it's true that nop tackler will survive. But remember, you're talking about 20 CARRIERS. If you're in a fight with 20+ carriers, chances are good you wont be worrying about a pesky interceptor flying around at 20km. Chances are good you'll be fighting a group of about 20+ carriers, and probably a titan or two. Hell, you might have a titan. This is a lot of bombing power. Also, if you're within 15km of each other, the carriers will likely be eating at each other's tanks, as capital ships aren't all that maneuverable and will likely remain within the blast radius. 20+ carriers all firing supercharged large bombs will be hitting each other for close to 5k DPS. That's damage dealt to EACH OTHER. Not to mention the BS fleet bombarding them from a distance. On top of that, the carriers probably wouldn't be able to keep that up for long due to cap issues, and if the tacklers see bombs beginning to go off, they can just skip out of range, then pop back in when the bombs have completed. Alternatively, a single interdictor could MWD through the group, drop a bubble, then leave before the warm up time was completed. this would leave the carreirs in a bubble, bombarding each other with 5k DPS. Not a smart move.

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