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DHB WildCat
BURN EDEN Terra Incognita.
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Posted - 2008.03.20 21:20:00 -
[1]
Disclaimer ***** This post is one to question the community of what they think is the worst problem of two very problematic things in EVE atm. Constructive only please leave your *** frineds at the door (flamers).
This question will be asked at the end of a quick story. Names and alliances will not be used to keep topic clean of flaming!
So I am flying a very fast and overpowered ship. There was a small gang coming to where I was camping. I managed to engage it and kill a dictor in the process, while keeping an eye out for local explosion and next door on the alt there too. After the dictor went down, next door local went up as expected. The odds were now 35 to 1. Obviously I was looking to get out in a hurry. So I continued to mess the tacklers on me, and MWD away as local grew and warped off.
Now here is the question. In your opinion is it worse that an alliance would bring 35 to engage 1 person (which I dont believe should happen)
Or is it worse that I was quite tackled but was able to escape it (which again I think should not happen)?
WildCat
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Ethen Bejorn
Pestilent Industries Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.03.20 21:23:00 -
[2]
That you were able to escape. The ship you fly is worth 35 people, and they were probably just in the area anyway, not just formed up just for you, well unless you were stopping a freighter waiting somewhere to get through.
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Tarminic
Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand
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Posted - 2008.03.20 21:24:00 -
[3]
Personally, I believe that #2 is worse. Why?
It makes sense, from a military perspective, for one side applying as much force as conveniently possible to defend themselves. What does not make sense is for you to escape with everything but your ammunition despite being engage by 35 opponents of approximately equal strength. ---------------- Tarminic - 33 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.79.2 |
Larg Kellein
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2008.03.20 21:25:00 -
[4]
The 35 to catch one is the bigger issue, in my opinion. Seems these days, there is nothing where the solution isn't to bring more people. It's quite boring, and the server hamsters aren't thrilled with the situation, to put it mildly.
Option two, with a very localised nerf to just you is an option too, though :p
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Alski
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Posted - 2008.03.20 21:29:00 -
[5]
Probably both are equal, but only if you assume they brought the 35 specifically to kill you and only because of the fact your ship was so fast as to make it that difficult to catch, and not because your name and ship (plus its nice loot) are well known and would make a nice trophy kill
But I’ve said it before, if people want to fly multi-billion isk ships with yet more billions in there pods, I don’t really care if that makes them near impossible to kill, it’s a very high risk for a very tough to kill ship. *puts on flameproof suit* - Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. (combat) Patch belonging to CCP hits your drones, wrecking their liberty and freedom.
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konkord
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Posted - 2008.03.20 21:31:00 -
[6]
Good Topic!
However I think the answer is in the question. 2 points, 35 vs 1 is bad (agreed) and some ships are overpowered in combination with skills and mods (agreed).
But isn't it rock scissors stone? I think that 1 argument is there is too many medium to large roaming gangs. But, if that were the case, how would you manage to pick off some small scale kills? they obviously do still exist, people still solo.
Next. The overpowered ship? well agreed, 1v1 it must be overpowered if your able to pick them off or escape at choice/will and with ease. But, you couldn't take a number of people, therefore the counter. The karma.
I think it's balanced, in the way i think your argument is balanced. Karma went full circle in your post which I feel is appropriate.
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Shin Ra
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Posted - 2008.03.20 21:37:00 -
[7]
But can it tank 40,000 dps? Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
Karad Forsky
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Posted - 2008.03.20 21:41:00 -
[8]
Apples and oranges.
Nothing wrong with blobbing, Eve reflects real life well here. As many forces as one believes are needed should be used. Eve is not a game of duels in space, it's a game of war.
As for an "overpowered" ship that can avoid getting tackled (assuming Raven with a neut or something similar knowing BE), there's nothing wrong with that either. There are ways of tackling any ship, but for full-nano ships the most efficient way is a gatecamp on both sides of a gate - which just as it happens encourages people to call more friends to make it work.
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Xaen
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Posted - 2008.03.20 21:48:00 -
[9]
I don't think either was necessarily evil.
Your Escape I have little doubt the ship you were flying was neither cheap nor easy to train for, so being able to escape a gang that wasn't prepared to take you on bothers me not at all.
Overwhelming Response If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan it correctly. Besides, I think you attribute far too much organizational credit to the responding force. Look at it from an individual level. Someone spams in alliance intel chat that there's a hostile ship in system X. All the individuals independently decide they want to go ruin someone's day by blowing up their ship. Everybody likes a good fight, and loves to shoot at those that are chromatically flagged for execution. So they each respond the same way. This is a game. Nearly never do in game fights take precedence over real world obligations or events.
If you ask me the biggest problems facing EVE today are the first two links in my sig. The UI simply needs a few talented UI programmers. Overpopulated systems need one of two things depending on the reason why so many players were drawn there. For missions, simply add more equal quality agents in other places. For market hubs, there are quite a few solutions proposed, but none seriously considered by CCP it seems. At least they haven't actually done anything but stop gap measures thus far that I can detect. - Support fixing the UI|Suggest Jita fixes|Compact logs |
Sakura Nihil
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Posted - 2008.03.20 21:56:00 -
[10]
The blob is the worse of the two evils.
I got run down by one of your nano-CNRs the other night (hell, I think it was you), but you know what? The setup will cost a lot, and while difficult to kill will make the player behind it wince when it goes pop. This is what balances it, the possibility of severe ISK loss despite the capabilities it does give.
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Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk i'm not a very good gambler
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DHB WildCat
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Posted - 2008.03.20 21:56:00 -
[11]
Three things 1. Yes they have done this 4 time just today for me. I have no idea if that what they do, or if its the ship they are after. 2. To Shin Ra- ask Shrike, Evil Thug, 0ort (ha well maybe a month a go) and 3-4 others who names escape me. That no it cannot tank 40,000 dps but it can warp from the time you see the ship to the time the DD finishes. 3. While numbers may be a good tactic to the speed, we all know the server is not capable of handling it. Even when there are only 40 in local you can tell the server is struggling.
WildCat Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
Forando
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Posted - 2008.03.20 22:04:00 -
[12]
Hmm, I have a hard time seeing the choices as being negative.
35-man fleet? I'd agree that, if you're looking for a fun fight, being severely outnumbered isn't the way to go. I even question if the fleet manages to feel a bit of adrenalin pumping, I doubt it. But it shows that these guys wont hesitate to X-up in alliance chat for some action, something other alliances and corps could learn from; participating, even if it turns out to be small goals.
You getting away? Well, the way I read it, it sounds like you actually took the choice to run, fought to survive and made it out alive. Isn't it fair to be rewarded for some effort? If you were just stabbed-up and warped away with out a shrug, I'd call you a coward in the blink of a second though. If they can't manage to lock down a single ship with 35 ships, I'd boldly say it wasn't your fault.
If I had to choose between the two, I'd say it was worse you escaped. I'd like generalize, and say it's unfair to survive with the odds being 35 to 1, but that's where making the right calls and thinking fast comes into play, if you ask me.
The worst thing I can find in your tale, is the use of scout alts (read: metagaming) but on that topic I'm no saint. So let's just hide that under the rug!
Enjoy, and fly safe..
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Malachon Draco
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Posted - 2008.03.20 22:11:00 -
[13]
I don't see a problem with blobs as such, except for the lag they bring. A skilled enemy should be able to pick off quite a few of a blob, but I'm sure you already knew that
If there is anything I would find problematic in today's response to an incursion is the absolute impunity with which people can drop carriers and moms on even the smallest of gangs. Especially in their home systems where they are almost completely safe because of cynojammers.
The nano-ing, I am not sure. Its a problem, but I would not want to see it nerfed to the point where you can't escape with some skill/luck. I would want it nerfed to the point where you are not practically invulnerable unless webbed. Maybe the tracking penalties for shooting at very fast ships should be capped, or some other change that will allow ships travelling at 12kms or more to still be hittable. I think that is fair. Nanoships deserve the speed to get away, its what they sacrificed everything for. But it should not be a ticket to near invulnerability.
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Djinn Phluxx
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Posted - 2008.03.20 22:16:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Xaen I don't think either was necessarily evil.
Your Escape I have little doubt the ship you were flying was neither cheap nor easy to train for, so being able to escape a gang that wasn't prepared to take you on bothers me not at all.
Overwhelming Response If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan it correctly. Besides, I think you attribute far too much organizational credit to the responding force. Look at it from an individual level. Someone spams in alliance intel chat that there's a hostile ship in system X. All the individuals independently decide they want to go ruin someone's day by blowing up their ship. Everybody likes a good fight, and loves to shoot at those that are chromatically flagged for execution. So they each respond the same way. This is a game. Nearly never do in game fights take precedence over real world obligations or events.
If you ask me the biggest problems facing EVE today are the first two links in my sig. The UI simply needs a few talented UI programmers. Overpopulated systems need one of two things depending on the reason why so many players were drawn there. For missions, simply add more equal quality agents in other places. For market hubs, there are quite a few solutions proposed, but none seriously considered by CCP it seems. At least they haven't actually done anything but stop gap measures thus far that I can detect.
I think this is the best answer so far.
Either your ship is setup to withstand an escape from a well organized group of people, in which case there's no surprise that you were able to withstand an attack and escape from a well organized group of people
OR
it wasn't a well organized group...in which case it's not surprising that 35 people randomly showed up lacking the coordination to lock you down.
Basically, it's either an adult against 35 infants or Bruce Lee in a mech suit against 35 adults...neither is shocking.
If they had the skills and gear you shouldn't have been able to escape.
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Khatred
ReallyPissedOff Guinea Pigs
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Posted - 2008.03.20 22:27:00 -
[15]
So out of 35 people nobody was fit and prepared to catch a nanoship? I guess that raises question #3 .
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.03.20 22:28:00 -
[16]
I'd move to reformulate the thread title to "the greater of two awesomes" Engage an enemy gang solo, kill a 'dictor, escape. Awesome flyin' ! Gang engages enemy, calls for backup, local swells 35 and going up. Awesome teamwork !
1|2|3|4|5. |
Tacitus Krekt
Wreckless Abandon Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.03.20 22:40:00 -
[17]
In regards to the latter question...pilot skill: you knew how to get the **** out when local was spiking, and knew what to do to the people trying to tackle. (emphasis on trying.) Breaking away from interceptors/vagas/dictors chasing you is very doable if you know how to deal with each and remain calm.
In regards to the fleet of 35 -- it's unfortunate, however, it appears to be the norm with many a roaming gangs. Scout finds target, the bored fleet of 35 that has probably seen few kills will bloodthirstily jump in trying to beat out everyone else to get the kill (see: killmails mean everything). Numbers give the facade of strength, and the more this happens -- the less people are really going to want to roam with large fleets when they're greeted with docked/cloaked/ss'd/running targets.
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umop 3pisdn
Fnck the blob.
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Posted - 2008.03.20 22:42:00 -
[18]
I know what you're trying to achieve DHB but really do you think it's a good idea?
Would you have been happier if you'd engaged them in a pimped raven, say 5:1, you grit your teeth for a tough as fight... but then local jumps by 10-20-30-whatever and you just get mobbed and die.
That is the future without nanos, every single time, once you are spotted you are as good as dead unless you blob like the rest of the sheep.
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umop 3pisdn
Fnck the blob.
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Posted - 2008.03.20 22:43:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Djinn Phluxx
Basically, it's either an adult against 35 infants or Bruce Lee in a mech suit against 35 adults...neither is shocking.
Yep
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Bertn Erney
The Fudge Packers Union
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Posted - 2008.03.20 22:50:00 -
[20]
from my experience I think the fact that you got away might be more of a problem and that stems more from my views on blobbing then anything else.
In my dealings with hostiles out in our space I find most of our bloodthirsty carebears really only log on for the chance to kill something and just rat to pass the time. So much so that when one does showup and is reported everyone and their mother comes immediately in whatever ship they are in including faction ratters etc to try and kill the sob.
Have had it happen numerous times where I am out patrolling our space and get a hostile contact, so I tell two friends to come help out over TS, and in the two or three jumps it takes the hostile to get into our trap there is now 20+ guys sitting on the gate with us, and if we wait another two minutes then we are up at 35-40.
What are we supposed to do? tell the carebears they are not allowed to enjoy one of the most satisfying experiences in eve?
Similar to the situation where goons and co lost out on a shrike kill because too many people came in system in crap ships. But if you are just a run of the mill person in a group of thousands and you here comms light up with reports that your most hated enemy is tackled and going down in his titan...... You would get in the fastest pos you have and get there asap.... hence why local filled up with shuttles etc.
It is not a problem with game mechanics but a problem in the people that play the game and the fact they are not getting enough to keep them busy so when something big comes up they have to participate. Now the problem that you got away is a problem with game mechanics and as much as I think 10 bil machs or whatever it was you were flying are cool I dont think they should be able to escape from 35 guys dropping on them, and if blobbing is still such a problem dont bring your superexpensive stuff out to 0.0, thar be sea monsters here.
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Italian Wedding
Soup Of The Day
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Posted - 2008.03.20 22:55:00 -
[21]
Quote: So I am flying a very fast and overpowered ship.
I'm pretty sure you just answered your own question.
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Roy Batty68
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Posted - 2008.03.20 23:00:00 -
[22]
Frankly I have never understood why the greater Eve community seemingly gets so upset about someone being able to escape. There are tradeoffs for all ship fittings, so what's the prob? Is it that every single encounter must result in a killmail?
I will always cheer those who can take on greater numbers and win and/or survive. Blobbing to me is the lowest common denominator of game play. And any game where the greatest numbers guarantees an automatic win is inherently less interesting than one where careful thought and planning is greater than sheer numbers.
So to me the obvious answer is: Blobbing sucks. Beat them however you can.
Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Mistress Suffering
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Posted - 2008.03.20 23:04:00 -
[23]
Neither is a significant problem.
If 35 guys are failing to catch you now, they're not skillful enough and deserve to fail. 35 skillful players would have caught you.
I think its a bit of a problem that 35 guys at a time is considered a reasonable gang, mostly because the game doesn't function well as numbers get large. 35 guys fighting 35 guys and EVE is frequently coughing up a lung. That's a problem.
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Cailais
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Posted - 2008.03.20 23:18:00 -
[24]
Neither is necessarily a problem.
Your opponents brought 35 ships as the tactical counter to your singular but highly specialised ship. In short, it was the wrong counter. Had any of those 35 players brought an equally specialised ship then the chances are you wouldnt have had the opportunity to write this post.
C.
Improved Low Sec Idea!! |
techzer0
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Posted - 2008.03.20 23:31:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Italian Wedding
Quote: So I am flying a very fast and overpowered ship.
I'm pretty sure you just answered your own question.
This tbh.
I'm still waiting for a gang of rapiers to kill him for posting with orange text. I've got one, who else is with me? ------------
Originally by: CCP Mitnal It's great being a puppetmaster
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Mordred Ottomo
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Posted - 2008.03.20 23:34:00 -
[26]
I would like to point out and take option number 3,
Originally by: DHB WildCat
So I am flying a very fast and overpowered ship. There was a small gang coming to where I was camping. I managed to engage it and kill a dictor in the process, while keeping an eye out for local explosion and next door on the alt there too. After the dictor went down, next door local went up as expected. The odds were now 35 to 1. Obviously I was looking to get out in a hurry. So I continued to mess the tacklers on me, and MWD away as local grew and warped off.
WildCat
I don't disagree with having alts, or several accounts for specializing and such. However, I disagree with having the ability to play more than one at a time. In the scenario described by the OP, he stated that it was 35 to 1 odds, but wasn't it really 35 to 2, where his other 'gangmate' was able to instantly relay intel to him and who wouldn't have been targeted by the incoming blob, because he probably wasn't in the same corp or gang. I see alot of posts on the forums about blobs and how everyone want GF's and 1v1's but everyone seems to have an alt in the next system ready to come to the rescue.
If I had to choose between the original 2 options, I would say that the number 2 is the worse.
Good Topic, what other problems do people see.
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Xerpex
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.20 23:46:00 -
[27]
Next time I'm in a gang, and we happen upon a single hostile I'm gonna let him go, because it's obviously wrong.
Or maybe I should make my mates jump in one at a time, but it might be unfair because the hostile has no time to rest in between fights. I know, I'll get a logistics ship to rep him after every fight, and ask him if he wants any tea or crumpets. It's only fair.
Or maybe I'll just kill him and move on. Most people complaining about things like that think the world revolves about them.
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Zorlag
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.20 23:53:00 -
[28]
oh man sweet orange text dude howd u get it
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Khanid Kutie
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Posted - 2008.03.21 00:05:00 -
[29]
OP wouldnt have anything to do with THIS Killmail now would it? ____________________________________________
Originally by: Thargat They should change the name of CAOD to EvE Zoo. Please to not feed the animals.
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Khanid Kutie
I R Teh Poasting Alt Corp
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Posted - 2008.03.21 08:52:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Maglorre There's an even greater evil. People that fly pimp faction ships, with a high skilled character and pimped heads full of implants, then come to the forum to brag about it under the cover of asking a question.
Cheers.
wins the thread tbh....
90% of all questions are statements in disguise. Why not just come out and say "OMG I FLY AN UBAR MACH WITH SNAKES IN ME HEAD, YOU SHOULD ALL BOW TO ME AND WORSHIP ME AS YOUR SAVIOR!" ____________________________________________
Originally by: Thargat They should change the name of CAOD to EvE Zoo. Please to not feed the animals.
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