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Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
295
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Posted - 2012.02.23 22:16:00 -
[31] - Quote
Aldous Sancros wrote:
What isn't a war target, in your resoning, then? I suppose it's true that the price of an Ibis hasn't nudged since way back when...that might be one of the only things.
High seccers tend to be very careful with there missioning and mining equipment and I think mostly there market isn't 'use' it's the fact the are worth X minerals as a commodity.
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |
Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
295
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Posted - 2012.02.23 22:18:00 -
[32] - Quote
Jita Alt666 wrote:
Yes I am, it often is termed as derailment.
I would consider that disscusion entirely unrelated to the OP, not connected issues that may be relevant to the overall debate.
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
309
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Posted - 2012.02.23 22:32:00 -
[33] - Quote
Professor Alphane wrote:What is worrying about Incursion and should be addresed is that in this tiered system only one tier gets most of the atttention suggesting an inbalance in the tiers rather than an imbalance in the size of the reward..
Thats how I see it all anyway
That's how CCP and most MMO companies work.
They know that people with existing customs and production lines / lucrative avenues won't switch for something new on par with the old.
Furthermore CCP and most MMO companies are unsure that their new feature will be appreciated, therefore they make it overpowered and slam it in the game.
Later on, players WILL find ways to exploit the still fresh feature plus it was overpowered to begin with.
The usual outcome is that the exploits get closed (after making some people rich or banned), the new feature is over-nerfed and people start wanting something new and "worthwhile".
Next patch, they'll get the new shiny "worthwhile" content, and it will be shiny and overpowered. The cycle restarts.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Ai Shun
311
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Posted - 2012.02.23 22:37:00 -
[34] - Quote
I'm having a bad Atticus flashback. |
Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
295
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Posted - 2012.02.23 23:33:00 -
[35] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Professor Alphane wrote:What is worrying about Incursion and should be addresed is that in this tiered system only one tier gets most of the atttention suggesting an inbalance in the tiers rather than an imbalance in the size of the reward..
Thats how I see it all anyway That's how CCP and most MMO companies work. They know that people with existing habits and production lines / lucrative avenues won't switch for something new on par with the old. Furthermore CCP and most MMO companies are unsure that their new feature will be appreciated, therefore they make it overpowered and slam it in the game. Later on, players WILL find ways to exploit the still fresh feature plus it was overpowered to begin with. The usual outcome is that the exploits get closed (after making some people rich or banned), the new feature is over-nerfed and people start wanting something new and "worthwhile". Next patch, they'll get the new shiny "worthwhile" content, and it will be shiny and overpowered. The cycle restarts. Edit: In level based MMOs, the companies flush the old content by making it obsolete as they introduce those 5-10 new levels at next expansion. CCP and the likes cannot, they only have the "put in overpowered new stuff => nerf it => put in something else newer" cycle.
Thats a very difficult balance and really requires an intimate knowledge of how good your players actually are and what is technologically possible, the best content IMO is difficult but not impossible to complete, though participating has some rewards completion pays better.
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |
Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
295
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Posted - 2012.02.23 23:35:00 -
[36] - Quote
Ai Shun wrote:I'm having a bad Atticus flashback.
Simple answer to that is don't do LSD while bullying over enthusiastics noob on the forums.....Simples
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |
Ptraci
StoneWall Metals Productions Bloodbound.
340
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Posted - 2012.02.24 13:06:00 -
[37] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
And the rise of freighters from around 700 million to over one billion?
As well as the very steep rise all minerals.
Mexallon. Have you ever built a freighter? Do you have any idea of the sheer volume of mexallon needed? The price of mexallon has increased by at least 33% if not more, ever since the release of T3 battlecruisers (which also require a relatively large amount of mexallon). Because mexallon is a relatively scarce mineral the increased demand for mexallon has increased its prices. Market speculation has done the rest. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5038
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Posted - 2012.02.24 13:24:00 -
[38] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote:incursions are a large (not huge) isk fountain No, it's pretty darn huge. At least 30+ù larger than missions on a per-character basis, and third-largest faucet overall in the game, in spite of being used by only a very small number of people.
Professor Alphane wrote:So both theory and observation say 'Infaltion in EVE is mostly a Myth' GǪexcept that both theory and observation says that there is indeed inflation GÇö about 13% a year, to be exact.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Laechyd Eldgorn
Molden Heath Angels
27
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Posted - 2012.02.24 14:16:00 -
[39] - Quote
actually op is right that there is limit how much incursions can create isk and i suppose that's only minor fraction of all isk generated. if you actually have competition on running sites you make 0 isk if you cant win sites.
even vg's are pretty reasonable if you think everyone would have only 1 toon in fleet. after that everything become to point i've been saying ... hurrdurr since 2007. If you put some alts in use you tripledoublequadruple it to ridiculous amounts. Although same goes for wormholes etc. pve activity, even mining, too so kind of moot point in that sense. i can tell that just doing incursions with one toon isn't that great isk even if not overall bad either but i know for sure that you can generate same by doing something else too.
i'd say bigger problem than incursions is this alts online gaming ccp encourages. it's not rare thing to have corpies with 10 alt accounts nowadays and all they complain is not having isk cos they got to pay 10 plex a month then they go sit in incursions/missions/wh's all day. :D
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John Maynard Keynes
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2012.02.24 14:32:00 -
[40] - Quote
Inflation is only an negative side effect of incursions. The by far bigger issue is that it destroys the risk/reward. And yes, tech moons are also an issue however you have to be able to protect them in order to farm that minerals. You don+ät have to fight at all for high sec incursions. There is absically no risk involved for high payout. Thus, incursions should be a low sec only feature. |
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Ptraci
StoneWall Metals Productions Bloodbound.
340
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Posted - 2012.02.24 15:06:00 -
[41] - Quote
John Maynard Keynes wrote: And yes, tech moons are also an issue
Tech moons do not produce ISK. They produce Technetium. Which is then traded for ISK that already exists in the game. Go back to Economics 101 for failing to understand that not a single asteroid, drone loot drop or moon material has ever added one single ISK to the game economy.
Material faucets/sinks are entirely different from ISK faucets/sinks. While a technetium moon may provide wealth to the owner, it does not create ISK. It merely creates a means to transfer ISK from the people who need technetium and already have ISK to pay for it, to the owner of the moon. |
Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
295
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Posted - 2012.02.24 15:11:00 -
[42] - Quote
Tippia wrote: No, it's pretty darn huge. At least 30+ù larger than missions on a per-character basis, and third-largest faucet overall in the game, in spite of being used by only a very small number of people.
Again I say the per charecter slot metric is not a good way of assesing the system as a whole per slot/per slot available gives a better overall view of it's entire effect.
A top score table means little without magnitudes
1. 100 Trillion isk 2. 10 Trillion isk 3. 0.01 isk
see
Tippia wrote: GǪexcept that both theory and observation says that there is indeed inflation GÇö about 13% a year, to be exact.
A drop in the ocean when you consider the rise in earnings possible not only from incursions but, WH, PI.
3 years ago 1 billion was a major undertaking and might take over a year (probably longer for a high secer) for a new charecter, I reckon it's possible within 3 months now (and thats just doing PI), so a 13% rise in the cost of living is relativley insignificant.
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5038
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Posted - 2012.02.24 15:16:00 -
[43] - Quote
Laechyd Eldgorn wrote:actually op is right that there is limit how much incursions can create isk and i suppose that's only minor fraction of all isk generated. It's about GàÖ GÇö quite a large fractionGǪ
Professor Alphane wrote:A top score table means little without magnitudes
1. 100 Trillion isk 2. 10 Trillion isk 3. 0.01 isk
see Yes, wellGǪ It's 900 billion, 350 billion and 300 billion. So yes, it's pretty darn huge, especially considering how few are using it and how much ISK it still generates.
Quote:A drop in the ocean when you consider the rise in earnings possible not only from incursions but, WH, PI. Yes, that is the problem that needs to be addressed, and no, it is not a drop in the ocean. Incursions is by far the largest individual earner, and it is a key contributor to the significant inflation going on. Oh, and no, PI is not part of that ISK influx. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Ptraci
StoneWall Metals Productions Bloodbound.
340
|
Posted - 2012.02.24 15:27:00 -
[44] - Quote
Professor Alphane wrote: a 13% rise in the cost of living is relativley insignificant.
Yet another person who fails to understand the exponential function.
13% inflation means that prices double every 5.5 years. That means that your billion isk freighter today will cost over 4 billion ISK in 2023, assuming EVE is still around by then. Conversely this means that in 5 years all the ISK in your wallet will buy you only half of what you can buy today. In 11 years, a billion ISK that would buy you a capital ship would be barely enough to buy and fit a battleship. 13% is an incredibly high annual growth rate for anything.
But don't worry, you're not the first person to underestimate exponential functions.
"The most powerful force in the universe is compound interest" -- Einstein |
Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
295
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Posted - 2012.02.24 15:29:00 -
[45] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Laechyd Eldgorn wrote:actually op is right that there is limit how much incursions can create isk and i suppose that's only minor fraction of all isk generated. It's about GàÖ GÇö quite a large fractionGǪ Professor Alphane wrote:A top score table means little without magnitudes
1. 100 Trillion isk 2. 10 Trillion isk 3. 0.01 isk
see Yes, wellGǪ It's 900 billion, 350 billion and 300 billion. So yes, it's pretty darn huge, especially considering how few are using it and how much ISK it still generates. Quote:A drop in the ocean when you consider the rise in earnings possible not only from incursions but, WH, PI. Yes, that is the problem that needs to be addressed, and no, it is not a drop in the ocean. Incursions is by far the largest individual earner, and it is a key contributor to the significant inflation going on. Oh, and no, PI is not part of that ISK influx.
What are the other too items on the high score table if you don't mind me asking. And what length of time does that metric represent.
Also my final point was inflation was somewhat insignificant, not Incursion isk earnings.
Thanks though you the first person to come up with actual figures to discuss, which was all I wanted people to realise really is ISK/HR/Person doesn't tell the story of it's overall effect on the economy as you need to know on what scale this activitie goes on comparitive to others.
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5040
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Posted - 2012.02.24 15:36:00 -
[46] - Quote
Professor Alphane wrote:What are the other too items on the high score table if you don't mind me asking. And what length of time does that metric represent. Bounties and NPC buy orders. Those are the numbers per day.
Quote:Also my final point was inflation was somewhat insignificant, not Incursion isk earnings. But that's just it: it is not insignificant, and it is caused by the increased earnings potential GÇö a potential that either needs to be hemmed in (and which does not include PI) or needs to be matched by an equal supply of materials. In other words, the earning needs to be riskier and result in more lost stuff, or needs to be dialled down.
Btw, if you want more numbers to play with, I've collected data that CCP Diagoras has been tweeting here, and written a follow-up post providing some limited interpretation of those numbers. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Az'Kagoth
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
32
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Posted - 2012.02.24 15:48:00 -
[47] - Quote
Thought it was a troll first, but the devotion shown by the OP to spread misinformation makes me feel sorry for his own failure of understanding basic economical principles.
Mr. Alphane, throughout this topic, there are several posts, already from the first page, that empirically present theories and thesises that are in conflict with the ones you presented in the OP without empirical proof. You however have been behaving like an angry little child holding his ears shut and screaming, by dismissing those arguments by calling them "off-topic", "insignificant" and accused them of not containing enough statistics instead of actually reading them.
A quick look into the Market Discussion forums might've been useful before shitting up General...
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Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
296
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Posted - 2012.02.24 16:03:00 -
[48] - Quote
Thanks Tippia I'll have a look at those figures when I get the chance, see if I can get a better idea of what's going on.
Bear in mind though all you incursion bashers, Incursion are CCP's flagship PvE content now, 'Space raids' basically, remeber these activities are phenominally high earning traditionally in other games.
Too much focus is on one type of incursion, that I do agree needs to be looked at, but if this is what I think it is, CCP attempt at a tiered raiding like system in EVE then it isn't a bad attempt. I would suggest them to look further into 'situational' AI , lots of succseful raid systems do a little more than just the standard 'lock horns Tank vs Dps'.
Further thoughts on the subject make me think Agro mechanics are somewhat limited, which reminds me of another thing someone said to me 'ECM is broken' perhaps if CCP do intend to pursue the 'space raid' path, an interesting adaptation may be to make ECM your aggro mechanic, have ECM funtion the reverse of what it is now. You send a counter wave up the signal that in someway scrambles every other lock except the signal it travelled up for a limited time, Allowing tanks to Force Aggro a target if neccasery.
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |
Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
296
|
Posted - 2012.02.24 16:10:00 -
[49] - Quote
Az'Kagoth wrote:Thought it was a troll first, but the devotion shown by the OP to spread misinformation makes me feel sorry for his own failure of understanding basic economical principles.
Mr. Alphane, throughout this topic, there are several posts, already from the first page, that empirically present theories and thesises that are in conflict with the ones you presented in the OP without empirical proof. You however have been behaving like an angry little child holding his ears shut and screaming, by dismissing those arguments by calling them "off-topic", "insignificant" and accused them of not containing enough statistics instead of actually reading them.
A quick look into the Market Discussion forums might've been useful before shitting up General...
Again thanks for the charecter analysis and advice, I am going to respectfully ignore them though.
On the basis as far as I'm concerned a lot of this thread has been guddiscusion.
To summarise I presented a theory to test an assumption.
I now thanks to Tippia hopefully have the evidence to asses this.
If it turns out that my assertions are wrong fair enough, it doesn't change the fact that there was a flaw in the assumption and further data was needed to properly asses the situation.
That how I see it anyhow
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |
wallstreetwhiz
Jita Traders Society
0
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Posted - 2012.02.24 17:21:00 -
[50] - Quote
Tore Vest wrote:Nerf Jita traders
Jita Traders Society opposes any nerfing of Jita Trade.
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CCP Phantom
C C P C C P Alliance
1031
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Posted - 2012.02.25 13:38:00 -
[51] - Quote
Please keep discussions about Incursions in this thread, thank you.
Discussions about inflation, or the lack of, belong to Market Discussion forum.
Thread locked. CCP Phantom - German Community Coordinator |
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