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Astera Zandraki
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2012.02.27 21:23:00 -
[61] - Quote
Thankyou, Ms. Lagann.
It seems as though you're unwilling to engage in an actual discussion or debate on the moral bankruptcy of the Empire, Mr Cresthill. So I'll just leave you to roll in your own foul smelling iniquity.
Birdsong. |
Theobar Cresthill
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
12
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Posted - 2012.02.27 21:35:00 -
[62] - Quote
Astera Zandraki wrote:Thankyou, Ms. Lagann.
It seems as though you're unwilling to engage in an actual discussion or debate on the moral bankruptcy of the Empire, Mr Cresthill. So I'll just leave you to roll in your own foul smelling iniquity.
Birdsong.
The foul smelling iniquity is your's Miss. As for debate, I would be glad to point out that your historical references equivocating one historical occurrence as interpreted by one particular Anti-amarrian viewpoint with all of Amarrian theology is simple logical nonsense. But, you will never own up to that, would you? The more I confront your sin and depravity, the more desperate you become to shut me up. You react as one under conviction and desperate to escape the judgment that is due. There is only one way to do that; repent and be reclaimed. All of your fruitless arguments will not stay the hand of inevitable judgment that will come upon you. To Hold the Wayward Children for God and Empire |
Astera Zandraki
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2012.02.27 21:54:00 -
[63] - Quote
Theobar Cresthill wrote: The foul smelling iniquity is your's Miss. As for debate, I would be glad to point out that your historical references equivocating one historical occurrence as interpreted by one particular Anti-amarrian viewpoint with all of Amarrian theology is simple logical nonsense. But, you will never own up to that, would you? The more I confront your sin and depravity, the more desperate you become to shut me up. You react as one under conviction and desperate to escape the judgment that is due. There is only one way to do that; repent and be reclaimed. All of your fruitless arguments will not stay the hand of inevitable judgment that will come upon you.
Alright. Answer me this question. In your eyes where were the souls of all those killed in the Starkmanir Genocide sent: Heaven or Hell? |
Theobar Cresthill
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
12
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Posted - 2012.02.27 22:29:00 -
[64] - Quote
Astera Zandraki wrote: Alright. Answer me this question. In your eyes where were the souls of all those killed in the Starkmanir Genocide sent: Heaven or Hell?
I will answer your question from a theological perspective, but if you mock, I will no longer waste my explanations on you.
God possesses the following essential traits 1. He is Just 2. He is Merciful/Loving 3. He is Eternal (not bound by linear causation) 4. He is all Knowing
In addition, God honors the free will of humanity.
This would apply to a death of an infant, the accidental death of an infidel who would have been converted, as well as to all the unknowns to which you refer, including all of the souls who have died in all the wars and slaughter wrought by mankind.
Here is the explanation: 1. Since God is Merciful, eternal and all knowing, from eternity, He knows those who would have freely turned and repented, and He grants them salvation and those souls are not damned. 2. Since God is Just, eternal and all knowing, He knows from eternity those who would have freely persisted in unrighteousness and not repented. Those are souls are damned.
Let us not press upon God our own limitations of knowledge and judgment. Instead rest both in His Mercy and Justice for He cannot be mocked by the freedom of man's choice. In His Mercy He saved those who would be saved and damned those who would be damned.
To Hold the Wayward Children for God and Empire |
Astera Zandraki
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2012.02.27 22:48:00 -
[65] - Quote
Ok, I'll compromise. The Majority, heaven or hell. |
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
234
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Posted - 2012.02.28 00:30:00 -
[66] - Quote
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:One day, we'll encounter an empire bigger than all of New Eden combined, also claiming to be the chosen people of God.
You'll be ****** then.
Oh, my...a'hem!...God!
I did not just see that, did I:
Our Seri actually says something wise!
(Sigh...) What is this universe coming to, eh?
I are kyute kitten! I are in ur mishun! Redoosin' teh lag by ninja'ing ur wrekz! (CCP: Make wrecks probable, and after 30min., tractorable.) |
Theobar Cresthill
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
12
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Posted - 2012.02.28 00:35:00 -
[67] - Quote
Astera Zandraki wrote:Ok, I'll compromise. The Majority, heaven or hell. For that answer, you will have to seek God. To Hold the Wayward Children for God and Empire |
Astera Zandraki
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2012.02.28 00:47:00 -
[68] - Quote
What percentage do you think come on. How many by your reckoning will have gone to your heaven. |
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
234
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Posted - 2012.02.28 00:58:00 -
[69] - Quote
Theobar Cresthill wrote:Apollo Lyserius wrote: No one is trying to destroy anything.
O.K. "Lips" For starters take a look at the many coprporations dedicated to the destruction of Amarr. Second, here are a couple pilots who hate Amarr so much that they nick named themselves kill amarr and kill amarrians. You and I both know that there are plenty who wish to do a whole lot of destroying.
Sample size of...wait for it...two =/= statistically valid representation.
Not that I can blame them really, it just seems a bit juvenile, is all.
I are kyute kitten! I are in ur mishun! Redoosin' teh lag by ninja'ing ur wrekz! (CCP: Make wrecks probable, and after 30min., tractorable.) |
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
234
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 01:19:00 -
[70] - Quote
Theobar Cresthill wrote: [...] self-denial and unselfishness. [...]
Oh, really.
Simple way to prove that:
Get your own people to do their own shitwork that nobody actually wants to do, or at least, pay the people you currently use to do it for you.
With money, benefits, and terms for same negotiated through a standard employee-contract, I mean, not some forced solipsistic delusion of enlightenment that was archaic and backwards who knows how many millenia ago, from which your chattel doesn't get to go home at night at now.
Walk your walk, instead of throwing in everyone else's face your talk, or **** off. I are kyute kitten! I are in ur mishun! Redoosin' teh lag by ninja'ing ur wrekz! (CCP: Make wrecks probable, and after 30min., tractorable.) |
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Theobar Cresthill
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
12
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Posted - 2012.02.28 01:54:00 -
[71] - Quote
Tarryn Nightstorm wrote:Theobar Cresthill wrote: [...] self-denial and unselfishness. [...] Oh, really.
Simple way to prove that: Get your own people to do their own shitwork that nobody actually wants to do, or at least, pay the people you currently use to do it for you. With money, benefits, and terms for same negotiated through a standard employee-contract, I mean, not some forced solipsistic delusion of enlightenment that was archaic and backwards who knows how many millenia ago, from which your chattel doesn't get to go home at night at now. Walk your walk, instead of throwing in everyone else's face your talk, or **** off.
Have you ever been to the Cresthill estate and observed the Cresthill brothers in the fields working with the held ones? No. My father and uncles are two hours on the worksite before and after slaves arrive for each day's work. They work themselves harder than any slave is worked. Are held ones are fed better, cared for better, educated better than any Caldari or Gallentean serf. Automation would be far more profitable for our family holdings but not better. Those who live on the Cresthill estate see the "walk" every day and most quickly come to believe the legitimacy of our faith because of what they see. How many of you capsuleer pilots give a rip about your crews? How many Corporate executives roll up their sleeves with their employees?
You and others like you through profanity in the face of anyone you hate or disagree with Mr. Nightstick. Do you think "standard employee contracts" like corps use such as Ishukone et.al. that drive emplyees to deal drugs and commit crimes just to make ends meet, enlightened? Do you think marking a teenager with a mark of disgrace then driving them to a life of silence or prostitution enlightened? Do you think telling a boys and girls that the secret to life is going to parties and getting drunk and then wonder why they grow us to hate life, enlightened? The Gallente, Caldari, and Matari "values" constantly get pushed into our faces, so you will excuse me if I do a little pushing myself.
And show a little self-control in your language, Mr. if you are so superior. To Hold the Wayward Children for God and Empire |
Astera Zandraki
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2012.02.28 12:29:00 -
[72] - Quote
You still haven't answered my question, Mr. Cresthill.
On another note, we don't have 'serfs' in the Federation. Everyone is a free and equal citizen. |
Theobar Cresthill
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
12
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Posted - 2012.02.28 14:08:00 -
[73] - Quote
Astera Zandraki wrote:You still haven't answered my question, Mr. Cresthill.
On another note, we don't have 'serfs' in the Federation. Everyone is a free and equal citizen.
As far as your first question is concerned, I am confident that God knows the answer to who chooses Heaven and who chooses hell. Why don't you answer it for yourself. Why are you pressing for a percentage? If you are an optimist, you say more than half if a pessimist, less than half. Why would you want me to guess at such a thing? You make your own guess if it is so important to you. God knows those who would have chosen to believe in him and those who who have chosen to reject him. That is good enough for me. You have said nothing of the substance of my explanation. I think you just be disagreeable.
Now to the second part: "Everyone in the Federation is a free and equal citizen"? Please tell me you are joking. If you are not then you are deluded. The Federation is rife with human right abuses, prostitution, poverty, illegal slavery, human trafficking, worker abuse. Every social ill is present in the Federation. Tell me you are not that out of touch with reality that you would think that everyone in the Federation is a free and equal citizen. Tell me you are not that naive. To Hold the Wayward Children for God and Empire |
Astera Zandraki
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2012.02.28 14:22:00 -
[74] - Quote
Theobar Cresthill wrote: Now to the second part: "Everyone in the Federation is a free and equal citizen"? Please tell me you are joking. If you are not then you are deluded. The Federation is rife with human right abuses, prostitution, poverty, illegal slavery, human trafficking, worker abuse. Every social ill is present in the Federation. Tell me you are not that out of touch with reality that you would think that everyone in the Federation is a free and equal citizen. Tell me you are not that naive.
The Federation is a large, sprawling and diverse conglomerate of separate states. Of course there are social issues, four of the above 'ills' you have listed are very illegal in the Federation, the punishment if you are convicted of those crimes is pretty severe.
However, all of the things you ave listed are not only legal in the Empire they are institutionalised Is it legal to beat a slave because of something they said? yes. Is it legal to force yourself onto a slave? Yes. Is it legal to break apart a family for profit? yes. Are slaves allowed to earn their own money, start businesses and attempt to live their own lives? in general no.
And don't even get me started on the subject of TCMCs or Vitoxin?. how are those in any way not human rights abuses or worker abuses?
Take the branch from your own eye before you attempt to remove the splinter from mine. |
Theobar Cresthill
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
12
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Posted - 2012.02.28 14:39:00 -
[75] - Quote
Astera Zandraki wrote: Take the branch from your own eye before you attempt to remove the splinter from mine.
Follow your own advice and stop assuming that Federation propaganda is so rock solid true. I have visited your Federation and observed your "glorious" free society. There are very few very wealthy people and a majority of very poor people. Big deal, they can vote, woohoo. You, on the other hand, have no idea of what righteous holding is all about. You have no idea of the generalizations you are making. While, yes, there are some false holders who abuse their legal rights, most holders truly are motivated by the burden of caring for and guiding the wayward ones God has placed in their care. Most holder sacrifice profit for the sake of those they hold. You see only one side and you assume only what your preconceived notions allow you to assume. The branch growing from your eye is firmly rooted in generations of Federation propaganda entrenched in their educational system that declares that Gallente society is superior to all. True holders are taught to view their burden as a humble call. When we "take pride" in something, it isn't a self-absorbed arrogance, but a humble realization that we don't deserve God's call but are happy to be involved in it. No Cresthill holder would dream of violating a woman, abusing a held one, starving or mistreating anyone. The discipline intended to lead our held ones to God is a discipline shared by the Cresthill holders themselves.
Only a splinter in your eye? Beware lest hypocrisy overwhelm you, miss.
To Hold the Wayward Children for God and Empire |
Caellach Marellus
Nephtys Ventures inc
451
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 17:41:00 -
[76] - Quote
Astera Zandraki wrote:You still haven't answered my question, Mr. Cresthill.
He's exceptionally good at selective quoting and picking on minor details to detract from the fact someone made a point he can't answer. Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |
Astera Zandraki
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 18:13:00 -
[77] - Quote
Yea, I see that. Alright Mr. Cresthill. Do you think the genocide of the Starkmanir was justifiable?
Also, as to your attack on Federal socio-economic policies. I am a believer in a doctrine known as the re-distribution of wealth. Whereby the rich are taxed much more heavily than those less well off, and that money is used to help the less well off with things like healthcare, policing and financial aid should they need it.
It is hypocritical in the extreme to argue that the Federation is riven with inequality when the Empire is without a doubt the most financially unequal Empire in New Eden, were some people residing in the Empire are not even allowed to earn money. And some privately own entire systems. |
Theobar Cresthill
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
12
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 18:15:00 -
[78] - Quote
Caellach Marellus wrote:Astera Zandraki wrote:You still haven't answered my question, Mr. Cresthill. He's exceptionally good at selective quoting and picking on minor details to detract from the fact someone made a point he can't answer.
Don't be an idiot. The question was one that only God could answer; that is obvious. To Hold the Wayward Children for God and Empire |
Astera Zandraki
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2012.02.28 18:22:00 -
[79] - Quote
No, it is not. Answer the question: would you have given the order that Ardishapur did? |
Theobar Cresthill
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
12
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 18:24:00 -
[80] - Quote
Astera Zandraki wrote:Yea, I see that. Alright Mr. Cresthill. Do you think the genocide of the Starkmanir was justifiable?
Absolutely not! No such slaughter is ever justified, not even when the religion is right and other things done out of that religion are right. But my view is based on the faith and traditional piety of the Cresthill holders. It is only my view. Ultimately only God knows if it was justified. The Cresthills would never have chosen that path, but we are just a minor family in the Amarr scheme of things, and my opinion is only that. A careful reading of the history of that incident shows that the powers involved made the decision politically, not prayerfully.
Do I risk being called a heretic for saying that? Yes. However, the Cresthills have never been afraid of expressing our piety through disagreement.
When terrible things like that happen, especially in the name of religion, I take comfort that the justice of God will see to both the punishment and vindication of all involved. If you had carefully read my theological explanation, you would have seen this right away. Please pay attention.
When we Amarr fail to follow God's plan to reclaim the wandering ones, He is quite able to find other means in his Sovereignty and to discipline us for our failure. I hope you are not under the impression that I think the Amarr are perfect. They are not. To Hold the Wayward Children for God and Empire |
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Theobar Cresthill
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
12
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 18:25:00 -
[81] - Quote
Astera Zandraki wrote:No, it is not. Answer the question: would you have given the order that Ardishapur did?
Open your ears. The number percentage question is the one that can't be answered. Stop being so dull.
To Hold the Wayward Children for God and Empire |
Astera Zandraki
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2012.02.28 18:29:00 -
[82] - Quote
Answer the question. |
Theobar Cresthill
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
12
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Posted - 2012.02.28 18:34:00 -
[83] - Quote
Astera Zandraki wrote:Answer the question. (Theobar slaps his forehead with his palm and sighs.) Look at the last post on page four of this thread, misssssssss. To Hold the Wayward Children for God and Empire |
Astrid Stjerna
Teraa Matar
620
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 18:36:00 -
[84] - Quote
Theobar Cresthill wrote:Caellach Marellus wrote:Astera Zandraki wrote:You still haven't answered my question, Mr. Cresthill. He's exceptionally good at selective quoting and picking on minor details to detract from the fact someone made a point he can't answer. Don't be an idiot. The question was one that only God could answer; that is obvious.
Well, until God decides to honor us with his wisdom, the question was asked of you, Captain Cresthill, and you are coming up sadly short in the credibility department with all of your sidestepping.
The question was asked of you, and you need to provide an answer. Monoclegate: because calling it 'Doorgate' would just be silly. |
Caellach Marellus
Nephtys Ventures inc
452
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 18:37:00 -
[85] - Quote
Theobar Cresthill wrote:Caellach Marellus wrote:Astera Zandraki wrote:You still haven't answered my question, Mr. Cresthill. He's exceptionally good at selective quoting and picking on minor details to detract from the fact someone made a point he can't answer. Don't be an idiot. The question was one that only God could answer; that is obvious.
Ah and now he's resorting to personal attacks when called out on his inability to answer questions or retort solid opinions.
It's more than one question Captain, you've been doing it throughout this entire discussion with several people. Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |
Caellach Marellus
Nephtys Ventures inc
452
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 18:39:00 -
[86] - Quote
Astera Zandraki wrote:Answer the question.
Didn't he do that by quoting your old question and giving an answer regarding the Starkmanir?
While I've been critical of him sidestepping at least this time he gave you an answer. Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |
Astera Zandraki
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2012.02.28 18:41:00 -
[87] - Quote
Caellach Marellus wrote:Astera Zandraki wrote:Answer the question. Didn't he do that by quoting your old question and giving an answer regarding the Starkmanir? While I've been critical of him sidestepping at least this time he gave you an answer.
That was if he thought they'd gone to heaven or hell. I'm asking now if he himself would have given the order to start the bombardment.
Would you have given the order Mr. Cresthill? Ardishapur, not God gave that order. |
Theobar Cresthill
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
12
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Posted - 2012.02.28 18:42:00 -
[88] - Quote
Astrid Stjerna wrote:Theobar Cresthill wrote:Caellach Marellus wrote:Astera Zandraki wrote:You still haven't answered my question, Mr. Cresthill. He's exceptionally good at selective quoting and picking on minor details to detract from the fact someone made a point he can't answer. Don't be an idiot. The question was one that only God could answer; that is obvious. Well, until God decides to honor us with his wisdom, the question was asked of you, Captain Cresthill, and you are coming up sadly short in the credibility department with all of your sidestepping. The question was asked of you, and you need to provide an answer.
OK, let see if I have this right. You want me to answer the question of what percentage of people killed in any given incident go to heaven and what percent go to hell, right? You want me, even though I do not know the individuals involved to say how many went here or there, right? Sorry, but that is an idiotic question. To Hold the Wayward Children for God and Empire |
Astera Zandraki
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2012.02.28 18:44:00 -
[89] - Quote
Theobar Cresthill wrote: OK, let see if I have this right. You want me to answer the question of what percentage of people killed in any given incident go to heaven and what percent go to hell, right? You want me, even though I do not know the individuals involved to say how many went here or there, right? Sorry, but that is an idiotic question.
No, you answered that, poorly albeit.
I'm now asking if you would have given the order to start the bombardment like Ardishapur did. |
Caellach Marellus
Nephtys Ventures inc
452
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 18:44:00 -
[90] - Quote
Astera Zandraki wrote:Caellach Marellus wrote:Astera Zandraki wrote:Answer the question. Didn't he do that by quoting your old question and giving an answer regarding the Starkmanir? While I've been critical of him sidestepping at least this time he gave you an answer. That was if he thought they'd gone to heaven or hell. I'm asking now if he himself would have given the order to start the bombardment. Would you have given the order Mr. Cresthill? Ardishapur, not God gave that order.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=868411#post868411
I think his first two words pretty much give you the answer. Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |
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