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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Imperator Jora'h
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.03.26 05:59:00 -
[31]
Originally by: AndrewRyan The Air Marshall is well trained airline pilots are not, the pilot was a buffoon who should not have been in possession of a firearm and its obvious he was a buffoon for allowing it to be fire, a gun doesn't just go off it needs a particular set of circumstances
Ignoring many idiot journalists (who prefer snappy, attention grabbing prose) the consensus from anyone who knows even a little about guns is the pilot was a major **** up and did it himself cuz he is an idiot. It is practically unheard of for guns to discharge "accidentally". You can drop a properly safed gun on the ground and it won't go off almost ever.
In short, totally the pilot's fault and not an accident. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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Daelorn
Dark Cartel Synchr0nicity
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Posted - 2008.03.26 06:38:00 -
[32]
What about this....?
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Wrayeth
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.03.26 09:12:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Wrayeth on 26/03/2008 09:12:38
Originally by: AndrewRyan He was "certified" to carry the weapon,
And governments also "certify" people to drive (AKA driver's licenses), yet accidents still happen involving licensed drivers. People also still drive without licenses, some poorly and others quite well.
So what's your point? -Wrayeth n00b Extraordinaire "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" |
LUH 3471
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.03.26 09:20:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Daelorn What about this....?
very nice demonstration cant get much better then this
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ry ry
StateCorp Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.26 10:00:00 -
[35]
i shot a bunch of people once. it was a laugh.
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Lithalnas
Headcrabs
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Posted - 2008.03.26 16:36:00 -
[36]
I have been shooting since i was 9 years old, have yet to have an accidental discharge that wasn't a mechanical failure. (a winchester '97 slamfired on me with a stuck firing pin) I have also yet to shoot anyone else.
And certification only means a couple hours of a training course and 9 rounds on target. I have had hunter safty classes longer than that.
And to those who say that guns are only destructive, i say to you that most gun and hunting equipment companies give large grants to conservation efforts, not to mention the farmers who convert their farms to hunting lodges and turn their fields into private wildlife sanctuaries. -------------
fixed for greater eve content |
Imperator Jora'h
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.03.26 16:42:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Lithalnas i say to you that most gun and hunting equipment companies give large grants to conservation efforts, not to mention the farmers who convert their farms to hunting lodges and turn their fields into private wildlife sanctuaries.
"Hunting Lodge" balanced with "conservation" and especially "sanctuary" seems an oxymoron to me.
Sure they want to conserve wildlife...so they can shoot them in the head.
-------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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Imperator Jora'h
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.03.26 18:49:00 -
[38]
Apparently a pistol bullet can penetrate the skin of an airplane (link is picture of the plane mentioned in the OP with the bullet hole shown).
Apparently the plane was at 8,000 feet coming in for a landing. At that altitude there is no decompression issues (heck, there are towns in the US higher than that). -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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Surfin's PlunderBunny
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.26 19:02:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Apparently a pistol bullet can penetrate the skin of an airplane (link is picture of the plane mentioned in the OP with the bullet hole shown).
Apparently the plane was at 8,000 feet coming in for a landing. At that altitude there is no decompression issues (heck, there are towns in the US higher than that).
What kind of pistol was it?
Remember, explosive decompression is a myth... in order to get it, mythbusters had to put a shape charge on the side of the plane ------------------Sig-------------------------- J. Kerouac said it best in The Vanity of Duluoz:
"Go droppeth a turd."
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Crimsonjade
Comanche Nation
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Posted - 2008.03.26 19:35:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Originally by: Lithalnas i say to you that most gun and hunting equipment companies give large grants to conservation efforts, not to mention the farmers who convert their farms to hunting lodges and turn their fields into private wildlife sanctuaries.
"Hunting Lodge" balanced with "conservation" and especially "sanctuary" seems an oxymoron to me.
Sure they want to conserve wildlife...so they can shoot them in the head.
actually hunters pay for 85% of all wildlife preserves in the US. if it wasnt for Hunters several species would have been killed off by people >>>>>100+<<<<<<< years ago.
and hunters dont always use guns anyways. so dont bring hunters into this argument as they have done more good for wildlife in the US then every tree hugging worm in the world.
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Daelorn
Dark Cartel Synchr0nicity
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Posted - 2008.03.26 19:39:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Lithalnas ...I have also yet to shoot anyone else...
You should try it sometime!
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Imperator Jora'h
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.03.26 19:43:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Apparently a pistol bullet can penetrate the skin of an airplane (link is picture of the plane mentioned in the OP with the bullet hole shown).
Apparently the plane was at 8,000 feet coming in for a landing. At that altitude there is no decompression issues (heck, there are towns in the US higher than that).
What kind of pistol was it?
Remember, explosive decompression is a myth... in order to get it, mythbusters had to put a shape charge on the side of the plane
From the BBC:
Quote: All pilots who qualify from the programme are said to carry the same weapon - a .40-calibre semiautomatic H&K USP - which experts say is extremely unlikely to go off on its own.
SOURCE: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7314668.stm
And yeah, explosive decompression where someone gets sucked through a bullet hole does not happen. Decompression is not even all that bad (not good but survivable). Oxygen masks drop and pilots move to a lower altitude.
But what if he shot out the window? That could kill the flight crew (maybe not in this case at the low altitude and speed). While I agree plane windows are tough I doubt they are bulletproof.
Or perhaps the bullet punctures a fuel tank. TWA 800 blew up because of an electrical fault in a center fuel tank that was empty (that or the US Navy hit it with a missile if you believe tin hatters). Under certain conditions a bullet could cause one to explode.
Then there is a real possibility that the pilot merely manages to take out the co-pilot or flight attendant or passenger.
There really is no need for a gun on a plane short of opening the window and taking pot shots at migrating geese. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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Imperator Jora'h
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.03.26 19:49:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Crimsonjade
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Originally by: Lithalnas i say to you that most gun and hunting equipment companies give large grants to conservation efforts, not to mention the farmers who convert their farms to hunting lodges and turn their fields into private wildlife sanctuaries.
"Hunting Lodge" balanced with "conservation" and especially "sanctuary" seems an oxymoron to me.
Sure they want to conserve wildlife...so they can shoot them in the head.
actually hunters pay for 85% of all wildlife preserves in the US. if it wasnt for Hunters several species would have been killed off by people >>>>>100+<<<<<<< years ago.
and hunters dont always use guns anyways. so dont bring hunters into this argument as they have done more good for wildlife in the US then every tree hugging worm in the world.
Cite?
I smell a bogus stat here. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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AndrewRyan
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.03.26 19:59:00 -
[44]
Explosive decompression where people are sucked through a bullet whole is a myth but damage to the fuselage can cause catastrophic failure of the structure, damage like this is not unrealistic.
There was also an incident where a windshield failed on a passenger flight and the pilot was almost sucked out of the aircraft, only the quick reactions of the crew saved his life as they managed to grab his ankles and hold on until the aircraft made an emergency landing. ========================================= A Man chooses, a slave obeys. |
Surfin's PlunderBunny
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.26 21:23:00 -
[45]
ok, a .40 is a little too powerful for use on an airplane, I totally agree... for passenger safety. But little handgun rounds aren't going to blow out the aircraft's controls or anything... too many backup systems. And no way in hell are they going to make a hole big enough for explosive anything. Unless it hits the door release, moves it all the way over, ricochets off the overhead, ricochets off the other side of the cabin, then the floor, then back to the door where it increases to the size and weight of a cannonball and pushes the door off the plane.
Also the plane won't go immediately to 0 pressure, it'll take more than enough time for the flight attendants to get to their stations to their masks, pilots have masks in the*****pit
------------------Sig-------------------------- J. Kerouac said it best in The Vanity of Duluoz: "Go droppeth a turd."
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Orakkus
m3 Corp Friend or Enemy
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Posted - 2008.03.26 22:11:00 -
[46]
If I remember right, the Pilots Union fought to have this privilege a year or so after 9/11, and so far, its been without incident. To me, that indicates that the vast, vast majority of pilots either a.) Have chosen not to, or b.) Take great care in having a firearm. Many pilots who work for the airlines are ex-Military, so they have gone through a pretty good firearm training program.
As regard the OP's opinion (and it is "opinion") of negligence. First, its CLEAR FROM THE ARTICLE, that the reason for what happened has not been released. Second, NEGLIGENCE is different than ACCIDENT. Though the two are often seen together, they are different words with different meanings. For example, its Negligence if he had the gun loaded and not safed (Neglect is defined as paying little or no attention to a particular situation, to fail to use.. such as in this example, safe firearm techniques). Its merely an accident if while holstering his gun, a piece of nylon hooks the hammer and*****s it, causing it to suddenly discharge when he sits down. It could also be that he was in the process of either re-loading the gun during the flight, unloading the gun during the flight that something as simple as the hammer being a tad too slippery from normal skin oil. It could also be that the hammer did not fully go back into a "non-cocked" position, despite the pilot's visual belief that it was.
Now, you DO have a point regarding your term "civilians", far too often Mr and Mrs. Everyday Joe decide they need a handgun for defense (a handgun is about the worst thing you can have for home defense btw) and go an buy one. They wait their 7 to 10 day waiting period, and whola! They have a brand-new or used small defense gun that they've been told on TV by the media that it will make all those bad people go away (Though, I found this to be oddly somewhat true, as when I moved into my current apartment, quite a few of the dope dealers who lived nearby saw me bring in two rifles, and seemed to be rather willing to leave me the hell alone. Considering that I was trying to not be conspicous about it, I think its rather funny). Somehow they get to feeling its a magic wand that all you need to do is point and pull the trigger. That just leads to stupidity all the way around. A good handgun user need LOTS of hours in practice before he have any skill with a handgun, and even then, it will be pretty much specific to that handgun.
As regards the poster who linked to catastrophic hull failures, as been mentioned already, the first one required that the ENTIRE CARGO DOOR WASN'T SEALED, and the second, was also considered such a freak accident as it wasn't an external based failure, but a failure of window itself. So, neither of these has ANYTHING to do with having a handgun in the*****pit. And yes, there is a freak chance that if a gun goes off, and happens to go through the floor and hit the latch to the cargo door, then there will be a catastrophic failure just like you shown. However, if you think that is a likely possibility, then please, feel free not to fly.
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EvilWezal
Eye of God Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.03.26 22:38:00 -
[47]
-20 points for the Op. for Anti-Gun and general ******ation.
Before I start ranting,let me stat some facts about my self. Im a Deputy Sheriff in Oklahoma. I'm CLEET Certified. I've shot guns since I was about 4 years old. I shoot about 10 hours a month.
/Rant On
Im sure the pilot was messing around with the gun and stupidy it went off. The Pilots have to go thru a gun course so that they can carry. Even if the gun punctured the airplane would not depressurize and kill every one. a simple bullet hole will not bring down a airplane even it damaged controls. they have triple or quad backups for every thing. Also every one is saying there are Air Marshals on every flight? WRONG Air Marshals are on less then 10% of all domestic fligts.
On Americans owning guns. I believe as does many Americans that gun ownership is a fundamental right. Guns make sure that the people will be free. Just ask the Phillipines what happend when there guns were took away. I also understand that many European people believe that Americans just run around shooting each other left and right. Its FAR from the truth. I dont believe that every German is a **** or that every Frenchman is a frog either.
Also a side not, Most Department of Wildlifes in States are ran off Hunting/Fishing licence fees and other fees. Oklahoma's Department of Wildlife is completely ran of fees. The tax payers pay nothing. and I do Hunt/Fish
/Rant OFF
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Dirtee Girl
Omega Enterprises Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2008.03.26 23:03:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Dirtee Girl on 26/03/2008 23:04:33 i love how the americans are branded as a country of gun fondling egomaniacs so openly when so many countries have past and present issues of equal or greater embarrassment/evil . america might have it's flaws but it's like declaring them the winner in the stupidest nation of the year competition which always ends in a photo finish where every nation seems to be tied for the win then america edges them out by a nose hair .
on the specific issue of americans and guns i would humbly suggest that america is the least of your worries and that maybe nations where children are given rpgs and submachine guns instead of books might be a little higher priority target than the U.S. . but i understand that it's been a long wait and youv'e no doubt been in line since 2003 for your turn on the anti america soapbox so please continue ...
p.s. i am not a citizen or resident of the united states . but i am a fan of their pron . ty btw .
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AndrewRyan
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.03.26 23:45:00 -
[49]
Its flipping obvious he was negligent by allowing the gun to fire, if you really used guns all your life you would have a certain amount of respect and discipline.
If you don't have that its just more proof of gun madness in the US, just as every post saying "its only a gun wtf?" or "all that could happen is someone got killed I mean really whats the fuss about?"
So thank you for proving my point. ========================================= A Man chooses, a slave obeys. |
Surfin's PlunderBunny
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.26 23:54:00 -
[50]
Nope, an accidental discharge is not negligence...
I had an M249 SAW cook off and the resulting runaway gun was in no part my negligence... it's all a part of the great truth that "**** happens"
------------------Sig-------------------------- J. Kerouac said it best in The Vanity of Duluoz: "Go droppeth a turd."
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nahtoh
Bull Industries United For 0rder
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Posted - 2008.03.27 00:04:00 -
[51]
Originally by: AndrewRyan Edited by: AndrewRyan on 26/03/2008 01:21:27
Originally by: Akita T Can you say "reaction out of proportion" ? He was an idiot or it was an accident. "Certified pilot" doesn't mean he knows anything else too well... just means he is able to fly the damned plane. Either way, what's the big deal ?
He was "certified" to carry the weapon, and its a big deal exactly because he was either a idiot in charge of a huge mass of fast moving metal at 30,000 feet that allowed a gun to fire in the *****pit or he was negligent enough to allow the accident to happen placing lives at risk.
124 passengers and possibly a large number of people on the ground where placed at risk because of the policy of allowing airline pilots to carry weapons, the stray bullet could also of hit and killed or injured a crew member.
Originally by: Ryan Scouse'UK Edited by: Ryan Scouse''UK on 26/03/2008 01:05:15 such a bad troll the title makes it sound so much worse then it is -
wow so his gun went off - didnt harm the plane or anyone.. yawn who cares?
I nearly slipped in the rain today - almost.. but I was ok - next.
It was more luck than skill or judgment that nothing happened this time.
Originally by: Shalia Ripper If you carry a gun, it has the possibility of happening.
Exactly, why are civilian airline pilots carrying weapons? they have very little chance of preventing terrorism and as this incident proves the policy just places the safety of the passengers at unnesscery risk.
And the plane could have eat a flock of birds though its engines your point? ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self |
EvilWezal
Eye of God Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.03.27 00:05:00 -
[52]
Originally by: AndrewRyan Its flipping obvious he was negligent by allowing the gun to fire, if you really used guns all your life you would have a certain amount of respect and discipline.
If you don't have that its just more proof of gun madness in the US, just as every post saying "its only a gun wtf?" or "all that could happen is someone got killed I mean really whats the fuss about?"
So thank you for proving my point.
The Article doesnt state that he was playing with the gun or that he pulled the trigger. I seriously dont know what this "Gun Madness" is, please explain. Your more likely to be ran over by a car in America then a killed by a gun by a large margin anyways.
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nahtoh
Bull Industries United For 0rder
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Posted - 2008.03.27 00:29:00 -
[53]
Originally by: AndrewRyan Its flipping obvious he was negligent by allowing the gun to fire, if you really used guns all your life you would have a certain amount of respect and discipline.
If you don't have that its just more proof of gun madness in the US, just as every post saying "its only a gun wtf?" or "all that could happen is someone got killed I mean really whats the fuss about?"
So thank you for proving my point.
No matter how safe you are and how much care you take a mechcanical failure can still cause stuff to happen, like you post just below yours a cook off caused by heat.
As they say **** happens... Oh yeah and before you rack me up as a another gun mad yank I am from the UK...
There is a differance between a acidental discahrge and a negligent discharge...You are the one thats assuming its a ND rather than a AD and I be if it turns out to be a ND the pro gun posters would be a lot more scathing about it than you... ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self |
Frezik
Basically Outdated Stereo Equiptment
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Posted - 2008.03.27 00:53:00 -
[54]
I highly doubt that a 9mm pistol, especially with hollow points, could go through the*****pit door, the fuselage, or the*****pit window. Nor are they likely to ricochet. That's because hollow points are designed to break apart against heavy objects.
That said, I'll let the Box O' Truth guy be the final judge, if he can somehow haul a 737 fuselage onto his little shooting range.
Quote: brings in to question the whole stupid idea of allowing civilian airline pilots to carry weapons
Most pilots in the US were hired out of the Air Force or Naval Air Corps. In fact, the field is so competitive that it's almost impossible to get a big commercial piloting job without military experience.
Originally by: "Imperator Jora'h" Had that bullet shatter the*****pit window I am willing to bet that would have killed the flight crew outright (at least I cannot imagine surviving a swirling mass of glass laden air moving at 550+ mph).
Take a look at the picture of Aloha Airlines Flight 243. An entire section of the fuselage was torn off. The total death count for this incident was one stewardess who was sucked out when the decompression occurred. Yes, there were many other injuries, but it's amazing how few casualties there were considering that a whole section of the airplane disappeared.
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Frezik
Basically Outdated Stereo Equiptment
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Posted - 2008.03.27 01:05:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Originally by: Lithalnas i say to you that most gun and hunting equipment companies give large grants to conservation efforts, not to mention the farmers who convert their farms to hunting lodges and turn their fields into private wildlife sanctuaries.
"Hunting Lodge" balanced with "conservation" and especially "sanctuary" seems an oxymoron to me.
Sure they want to conserve wildlife...so they can shoot them in the head.
Human hunters fill a necessary role in the ecosystem. Wolves in much of the US have been hunted to near extinction because they pose a very real threat to farm cattle. But that also means there's not enough wolves around to eat the deer. Without a predator, deer won't balance their own population against available food sources. You'll see a steady rise is deer numbers for a few decades until almost all the vegetation is gone, followed by a population crash that kills 90% of the deer within a year. This is a well-established problem for herbivore species.
Fortunately, most of the hunters who had previously hunted wolves (or more likely, their great-grandchildren) are just as happy hunting deer instead. As long as the hunting is within well-controlled limits, the population can be kept within an acceptable range.
Thus, with a simple understanding of ecology, it's shown that there is no contradiction between hunting and loving nature.
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Brea Lafail
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.03.27 02:11:00 -
[56]
My great aunt always carries a revolver in her belt. One day it went off while she was baking bread and killed the cat. At least that was her story.
Just thought I'd share that.
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AndrewRyan
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.03.27 02:32:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Frezik
Human hunters fill a necessary role in the ecosystem. Wolves in much of the US have been hunted to near extinction because they pose a very real threat to farm cattle. But that also means there's not enough wolves around to eat the deer. Without a predator, deer won't balance their own population against available food sources. You'll see a steady rise is deer numbers for a few decades until almost all the vegetation is gone, followed by a population crash that kills 90% of the deer within a year. This is a well-established problem for herbivore species.
Fortunately, most of the hunters who had previously hunted wolves (or more likely, their great-grandchildren) are just as happy hunting deer instead. As long as the hunting is within well-controlled limits, the population can be kept within an acceptable range.
Thus, with a simple understanding of ecology, it's shown that there is no contradiction between hunting and loving nature.
I'm not going to get into the hunting argument but I would like to point out that any perceived need for man to interfere with the ecosystem through hunting is because of our very interference in the first place.
And no I don't particularly like hunting for hunting's sake either, and no I'm not a hippy I'm just a proud British citizen and glad weapons are restricted and bloodsports are slowly being outlawed as I don't see the need for providing society with the means to kill each other or for the cruelty to animals for entertainment purposes. ========================================= A Man chooses, a slave obeys. |
nahtoh
Bull Industries United For 0rder
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Posted - 2008.03.27 02:45:00 -
[58]
Originally by: AndrewRyan
Originally by: Frezik
Human hunters fill a necessary role in the ecosystem. Wolves in much of the US have been hunted to near extinction because they pose a very real threat to farm cattle. But that also means there's not enough wolves around to eat the deer. Without a predator, deer won't balance their own population against available food sources. You'll see a steady rise is deer numbers for a few decades until almost all the vegetation is gone, followed by a population crash that kills 90% of the deer within a year. This is a well-established problem for herbivore species.
Fortunately, most of the hunters who had previously hunted wolves (or more likely, their great-grandchildren) are just as happy hunting deer instead. As long as the hunting is within well-controlled limits, the population can be kept within an acceptable range.
Thus, with a simple understanding of ecology, it's shown that there is no contradiction between hunting and loving nature.
I'm not going to get into the hunting argument but I would like to point out that any perceived need for man to interfere with the ecosystem through hunting is because of our very interference in the first place.
And no I don't particularly like hunting for hunting's sake either, and no I'm not a hippy I'm just a proud British citizen and glad weapons are restricted and bloodsports are slowly being outlawed as I don't see the need for providing society with the means to kill each other or for the cruelty to animals for entertainment purposes.
Well I am also from the uk and think your type uncritcal bull**** is why its currently going down the ****ter..tell me oh numbnuts why has the uks rate of gun/knife crime stayed steady/slight increase after every sodding hand in and ban? ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self |
AndrewRyan
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.03.27 03:05:00 -
[59]
Originally by: nahtoh Well I am also from the uk and think your type uncritcal bull**** is why its currently going down the ****ter..tell me oh numbnuts why has the uks rate of gun/knife crime stayed steady/slight increase after every sodding hand in and ban?
That's because of a general social breakdown, I wont argue that the gangs of teenage thugs make the streets dangerous in certain areas and that violent crime is constantly increasing but a knife can be obtained from anywhere and imagine how bad the gun crime would be if the thugs and criminals could just walk into a local shop and buy a gun. And not trying to sound to anti American (because I'm not I just they have stupid gun laws and attitudes to them) there are malignant influences from the US its being documented that street gangs are beginning to act like LA style gangsters right down to wearing "colours".
And I think our firearms laws are spot on, we don't have students shooting up their classmates every few months, we don't have thousands of marital quarrels ending up in somebody grabbing a gun and armed robberies where people actually get shot and killed are remarkably infrequent. These things in the US are a everyday occurrence its so common that they are blase about and no longer see the utter waste of the most precious thing we can ever possess. ========================================= A Man chooses, a slave obeys. |
EvilWezal
Eye of God Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.03.27 03:33:00 -
[60]
Here's a good BBC Article on increasing violence in Britian while America's rates are falling.
BBC Article
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