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minestar
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.03.27 19:32:00 -
[1]
Hi all
Ive got the chance to buy a raven bpo(me 20).
What sort of profit can i expect if the selling price is about 91.5mil (jita prices).
Im new to building so any help would be great.
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Ioci
Ioci Exploration Apotheosis of Virtue
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Posted - 2008.03.27 19:40:00 -
[2]
Originally by: minestar Hi all
Ive got the chance to buy a raven bpo(me 20).
What sort of profit can i expect if the selling price is about 91.5mil (jita prices).
Im new to building so any help would be great.
If you stack the minerals to build your Raven, they will find they are worth more than the raven you plan to build. I have no idea how people are building ships and making money. It seems to be more of a hobby aspect to the game than a way to make ISK. Not to discourage you from becoming a manufacturing mogul. Just pointing out the truth right now. |
Quelque Chose
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.03.27 19:40:00 -
[3]
Easiest way to figure that out is to look at the bill of materials and then open up the market and whip out the calculator tbh. Yes, it's a tedious job and yes, it fluctuates.
If you want a quick/ semi- reliable estimate, use EveMon's mineral worksheet tool.
If I had to guess I'd say the raven market is competitive as hell. ______________________________
"Eve Online is a massively multiplayer game about trolling in outer space." |
Phaige
Reaver Construction Services
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Posted - 2008.03.27 19:44:00 -
[4]
I've got a Raven bpo with more research then that, and tbh I have a hell of a time making Raven's for profit on the market these days. Competition is fierce and mineral prices fluxuate a lot. Best BS boat that I've found to build for profit is the Typhoon, especially if you operate in or near Min. space. Seems to be a fairly quick seller, and with a BP at... I think its at 30me we turn a healthy profit (I'd have to be IG to be able to tell you actual ISK values, sorry).
Heck, my corp is funding all of its operations off of one group mining op a week (ish), loot donations for refinment, and corp sold Phoons.
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You may be a King or a little Street Sweeper, but sooner or later you dance wi' de' Reaper! |
Drizit
FREEDOM FIRST Black Sun Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.27 19:45:00 -
[5]
If you want isk, building T1 ships is not the way to go unless you find an area where the demand allows you to up the price a bit.
Even if you mine the ore yourself, the time spent mining as well as cost of building it has to be calculated into the profit margin. Shipbuilding is so cutthroat now that the market price of most battleships have dropped to almost below their ore value. Unless you have excellent skills to reduce waste and time to build it, I'd say go for something smaller like a cruiser or BC. New players are often losing them in missions and therefore they sell quite quickly and their price is more stable.
Having said all that, I'd do it just for the sheer hell of saying "I build battleships" to the girls I meet in the nightclub. At least they can't accuse of lying when they find out
--
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Phaige
Reaver Construction Services
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Posted - 2008.03.27 19:46:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Drizit If you want isk, building T1 ships is not the way to go unless you find an area where the demand allows you to up the price a bit.
Even if you mine the ore yourself, the time spent mining as well as cost of building it has to be calculated into the profit margin. Shipbuilding is so cutthroat now that the market price of most battleships have dropped to almost below their ore value. Unless you have excellent skills to reduce waste and time to build it, I'd say go for something smaller like a cruiser or BC. New players are often losing them in missions and therefore they sell quite quickly and their price is more stable.
Having said all that, I'd do it just for the sheer hell of saying "I build battleships" to the girls I meet in the nightclub. At least they can't accuse of lying when they find out
Stabber is your friend. -----------------------------------------------
You may be a King or a little Street Sweeper, but sooner or later you dance wi' de' Reaper! |
Letouk Mernel
Blue Shell Corporation
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Posted - 2008.03.27 19:50:00 -
[7]
There is no profit. You will lose money.
Here's why:
1. The Raven is a tech 1 ship, and there are literally thousands of people who have maximized their manufacturing skills to higher than what you have, and who have blueprints researched to more than your ME 20. They can make it cheaper than you can.
2. Everyone sells minerals in Jita cause they are the most profitable (most expensive) there.
3. Everyone buys ships in Jita because they are the cheapest there.
If you really want to make and sell that Raven and make profit, then what you need to do is get minerals for cheaper (set up buy orders in the outskirts of space, not in Jita, and buy at 2.40 instead of 3.00 for example), and then also try to sell the Raven near to where it's needed (find a mission hub like Motsu or others that are even farther away from Jita, and sell the Raven there).
Even then it will be hard. People go for T2 ships these days, not obsolete tech like the Raven. All you hear about is HACs, CNRs, etc etc.
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Kerfira
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.03.27 20:05:00 -
[8]
If you set up shop in the middle of a market where everybody else is, you'll (not surprisingly) get top price!
You need to find a place where there's a market, but which doesn't have many traders present. You'll also need access to a factory nearby and a good mineral supply.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Ralara
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.27 20:28:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Ioci
Originally by: minestar Hi all
Ive got the chance to buy a raven bpo(me 20).
What sort of profit can i expect if the selling price is about 91.5mil (jita prices).
Im new to building so any help would be great.
If you stack the minerals to build your Raven, they will find they are worth more than the raven you plan to build. I have no idea how people are building ships and making money. It seems to be more of a hobby aspect to the game than a way to make ISK. Not to discourage you from becoming a manufacturing mogul. Just pointing out the truth right now.
They aren't making money.
They think that jsut because they mine the minerals themselves, it's "free" - they forget about the time it takes them to do it - my time can be worth up to 20-100m an hour - if im mining for 10 hours to get the stuff for a Raven, that's 200m-1b isk "lost".
People don't think like that, which is why you get ships being sold cheaper than the minerals it costs to make them - it's because they're idiots. -- Ralara / Ralarina |
Kahega Amielden
Legacy Syndicate space weaponry and trade
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Posted - 2008.03.27 20:36:00 -
[10]
Quote:
People don't think like that, which is why you get ships being sold cheaper than the minerals it costs to make them - it's because they're idiots.
'
They're idiots?
Well, they're making ISK selling ****, and you're not, so...
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Asestorian
Domination. Scorched Earth.
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Posted - 2008.03.27 20:42:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Quote:
People don't think like that, which is why you get ships being sold cheaper than the minerals it costs to make them - it's because they're idiots.
'
They're idiots?
Well, they're making ISK selling ****, and you're not, so...
Yeah but the point is that they could be making more money just selling the minerals they used to make those ships in the first place
---
MOZO
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Mithfindel
Argent Group
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Posted - 2008.03.27 20:50:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden They're idiots?
Well, they're making ISK selling ****, and you're not, so...
In the matter of fact, they are making ISK, yes. However, if they work for the Raven for the menioned ten hours and gain 90 million from the sales. That's an average of nine million per hour. If the sole goal is that of generating ISK, then Ralera's lower bracket of 20 million per hour is over 100 % more, which means that while they might not literally be losing ISK, their ISK gain is suboptimal, assuming that the 90 million sell price is still above the price of the minerals used in the manufacturing process. If they are selling below the mineral price, then they are actually losing ISK (since they get less from the ship as they would get from selling the raw materials).
Another view is that if cheap minerals are available, in this case if the manufacturers could get their hour's worth of mined minerals under nine million, then they are actually working at a loss - "outsourcing" the mining to the open markets would be more profitable when taking in account the time use. Of course, the correctness of the ten hour estimate is critical when calculating this kind of a profit in ISK/hour. Personally, I am no miner, so I cannot evaluate the claim.
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Kolmogorow
Freedom Resources
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Posted - 2008.03.27 20:52:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Ralara People don't think like that, which is why you get ships being sold cheaper than the minerals it costs to make them - it's because they're idiots.
The time window to get a ship cheaper than mineral costs is something like 5 minutes after setup the sell order because then the ship is bought by a manufacturing competitor and recycled or resold for a higher price by a trader - it's because they're smart.
(That's also the reason why you make the biggest profit in the rare cases when the mineral requirements for an item are lowered after a patch - like armor hardeners for instance: large batches of overpriced pieces sell quite fast because some scrap metal recyclers are still working with their old excel sheets not being up-to-date.)
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Phaige
Reaver Construction Services
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Posted - 2008.03.27 20:54:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Phaige on 27/03/2008 20:56:15
Originally by: Ralara They think that jsut because they mine the minerals themselves, it's "free" - they forget about the time it takes them to do it - my time can be worth up to 20-100m an hour - if im mining for 10 hours to get the stuff for a Raven, that's 200m-1b isk "lost".[/quote
True, realativly. My time might be worth 30m an hour, but then again that generally requires I pay attention. Mining in a backwater system while I watch movies or "spend time with the lady" and still manage to mine enough to build a coupld of cruisers/bc/bs whatever, is all good. Thats why I hate the ISK/Hour figuring, cause the importance of each calculation is completely realative to the person.
But this:
People don't think like that, which is why you get ships being sold cheaper than the minerals it costs to make them - it's because they're idiots.
Is just plain "you should be drug out into the street for a beating and never be allowed to breed" kind of stupid.
-----------------------------------------------
You may be a King or a little Street Sweeper, but sooner or later you dance wi' de' Reaper! |
Benco97
Exchangable Properties
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Posted - 2008.03.27 21:06:00 -
[15]
I've never liked that time is money thing. Comparatively speaking we could find out the person who has made the most isk per hour EVER and then always compare our current actions to that. What's that, lucky faction drop? 500million in 10 mins? Goddamn my time is valuable! except... i'm not the one getting the drop, if mining for those ships is what you WANT to be doing then there is no better thing to do irrespective of "isk per hour". Maybe they ENJOY doing that? do you factor enjoyment into that equation? How much is one enjoyment worth?
It's a game, get over yourselves.
Originally by: Kirjava This man speaks the truth, when he farts we count the length in seconds and make squillions buying winning lottery tickets.
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Drizit
FREEDOM FIRST Black Sun Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.27 21:08:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Asestorian Yeah but the point is that they could be making more money just selling the minerals they used to make those ships in the first place
The real point is whether you play this game for fun or to be a tycoon. If your aim is to be a tycoon, you'd be better off playing in RL and making RL money.
I have built and sold loads of stuff for less than mineral prices. However, I mine my own minerals so it's up to me if I want to take a hit on the selling price, I still make isk but not as much as if I'd sold the minerals.
At the end of the day, it's just a game and it's not as if your mortgage is going to be unpaid if you choose to lose isk occasionally.
I could do the math and amass billions of isk. To what purpose? So I can have 16 Freighters? Or maybe an officer fitted CNR for every day of the week? It really takes the fun out of the game to know you have the isk to buy anything you want and never have to strive to obtain it. Half the fun is in earning the isk to buy what you want but when you have it, you can relax and take a loss now and then. You know that when the next patch comes out, you'll have more to have fun striving for and not just buy it cos it's there.
--
Freighters need a tank |
Ralara
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.27 21:08:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Ralara on 27/03/2008 21:09:19
Originally by: Phaige Edited by: Phaige on 27/03/2008 20:56:15
Originally by: Ralara They think that jsut because they mine the minerals themselves, it's "free" - they forget about the time it takes them to do it - my time can be worth up to 20-100m an hour - if im mining for 10 hours to get the stuff for a Raven, that's 200m-1b isk "lost".[/quote
True, realativly. My time might be worth 30m an hour, but then again that generally requires I pay attention. Mining in a backwater system while I watch movies or "spend time with the lady" and still manage to mine enough to build a coupld of cruisers/bc/bs whatever, is all good. Thats why I hate the ISK/Hour figuring, cause the importance of each calculation is completely realative to the person.
But this:
People don't think like that, which is why you get ships being sold cheaper than the minerals it costs to make them - it's because they're idiots.
Is just plain "you should be drug out into the street for a beating and never be allowed to breed" kind of stupid.
huh?
If they're selling at below production costs, just sell the minerals.
If it costs 95m in minerals to build, and you sell it for 90m, what the hell is the point in renting either a pos or station slot to build, and buying the BPO? Just sell the minerals.
EDIT: what have you done to the quotes?? -- Ralara / Ralarina |
Quelque Chose
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.03.27 21:22:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Benco97 I've never liked that time is money thing. Comparatively speaking we could find out the person who has made the most isk per hour EVER and then always compare our current actions to that. What's that, lucky faction drop? 500million in 10 mins? Goddamn my time is valuable! except... i'm not the one getting the drop, if mining for those ships is what you WANT to be doing then there is no better thing to do irrespective of "isk per hour". Maybe they ENJOY doing that? do you factor enjoyment into that equation? How much is one enjoyment worth?
It's a game, get over yourselves.
Yeah, it's a game and games have rules and objectives and generally the point of playing a game is to try to win even if only in a half- assed way. Measuring Eve solely by ISK/ hour is admittedly a boring way to approach it, but if you're playing the game as a business sim then is it really so soul- crushing to try to make a profit?
______________________________
"Eve Online is a massively multiplayer game about trolling in outer space." |
Wet Ferret
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.03.27 21:23:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Ralara just sell the minerals.
You're wrong in assuming you can "just sell the minerals". It's not that mined ore is "free" but it's worth less than market value if you need to move the crap around to get the best price for it, or wait til someone decides to buy it for the price you want.
Building a ship and selling it could very well be bringing in more ISK faster than selling the minerals, depending on who you are, what kind of ships you can fly (like a freighter), etc. There's more to it than just what the market price tells you.
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Letouk Mernel
Blue Shell Corporation
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Posted - 2008.03.27 21:35:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Benco97 I've never liked that time is money thing. Comparatively speaking we could find out the person who has made the most isk per hour EVER and then always compare our current actions to that.
You don't compare to other people, you compare to yourself. It's basically this: you could spend 10 hours mining to make a 90 million ISK Raven, or you could spend 10 hours missioning or Inventing or scamming or whatever the heck you can do well, to make 180 million.
What do you do?
That's how people figure out if anything is profitable. "Do I spend the next hour hauling for that 1 million ISK courier contract, or do I spend the next hour mining in my cruiser at 5 million per hour?" The contract isn't worth it.
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Drizit
FREEDOM FIRST Black Sun Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.08 12:59:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Letouk Mernel That's how people figure out if anything is profitable. "Do I spend the next hour hauling for that 1 million ISK courier contract, or do I spend the next hour mining in my cruiser at 5 million per hour?" The contract isn't worth it.
Experience counts for a lot more than isk. Those courier contracts may give you the knowledge of the map enough to see another very profitable courier contract.
The same way that building and selling items gives you a broader view of the market and where you can get the best prices. This knowledge has led me to lucrative trading runs on occasion.
--
Freighters need a tank |
Ryoji Tanakama
Daikoku Fleet Shipyards
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Posted - 2008.04.08 13:01:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Ioci
Originally by: minestar Hi all
Ive got the chance to buy a raven bpo(me 20).
What sort of profit can i expect if the selling price is about 91.5mil (jita prices).
Im new to building so any help would be great.
If you stack the minerals to build your Raven, they will find they are worth more than the raven you plan to build. I have no idea how people are building ships and making money. It seems to be more of a hobby aspect to the game than a way to make ISK. Not to discourage you from becoming a manufacturing mogul. Just pointing out the truth right now.
Because somehow if you mine it it is free. Maybe these people simply do not value their time like the rest of us?
~Ryoji Tanakama
Daikoku Fleet Shipyards |
Hannobaal
Shadow Forces Inc.
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Posted - 2008.04.08 13:02:00 -
[23]
The short answer to the OP: Little to nothing unless you're doing it in 0.0
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Hannobaal
Shadow Forces Inc.
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Posted - 2008.04.08 13:04:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Wet Ferret
Originally by: Ralara just sell the minerals.
You're wrong in assuming you can "just sell the minerals". It's not that mined ore is "free" but it's worth less than market value if you need to move the crap around to get the best price for it, or wait til someone decides to buy it for the price you want.
Building a ship and selling it could very well be bringing in more ISK faster than selling the minerals, depending on who you are, what kind of ships you can fly (like a freighter), etc. There's more to it than just what the market price tells you.
However, the same is true for whatever ship you may build out of the minerals.
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Armoured C
Globaltech Industries The ENTITY.
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Posted - 2008.04.08 13:11:00 -
[25]
if you having problem selling ships with out profit come and sell it in low sec where such pirates and alike cant go into high sec
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Cpt Branko
Surge. Night's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.04.08 13:15:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 08/04/2008 13:16:13
Originally by: Armoured C if you having problem selling ships with out profit come and sell it in low sec where such pirates and alike cant go into high sec
This. You can easily charge roughly 5% to 10% extra.
Also, certain kinds of consumables are rather popular in low-sec as well. I'd probably be making very good ISK in low-sec if I was a industrialist for fairly little effort tbh.
I manufacture frigs and certain consumables off reprocessed T1/low-named junk, works quite well.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Trojanman190
The Conflagration New Age Solutions Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.04.08 13:16:00 -
[27]
The problem is that a lot of people think that if you mined the minerals yourself, they are free and you can undercut what it actually costs to build the ship. I own a typhoon bpo with roughly 30me and I haven't been able to sell them for a profit for a looooooooooooooooooooooooooong time. It also seems that invention is causing the t2 market to move in the exact same direction. Newbs think that the datacores their agents generate are free and think that the t1 ships they build are also free. So they undercut the guys that actually try to post for a small profit and in the end nobody will make money. Datacore prices are dropping, t2 ship prices are dropping, and some t2 modules have completely bottomed out.
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PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik
aurorae pacificas
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Posted - 2008.04.08 13:19:00 -
[28]
the people posting above that think manufacturers dont make a profit are delusional.
Personally for t1 BC and BS you are looking at about 4-8% profit margins in a competitive market.
If you want to increase that to perhaps double or so you will need to set low buy orders region wide and be prepared to run around alot collecting mins. If you are happy to buy minerals from sell orders in market hubs you will be looking at at under 5-8% profit on mineral/production costs.
therefore figure out how much you paid for the bpo and see how many ships you would have to sell before breaking even. You will find that t1 manufacturing is a LONG TERM investment in both skills and resources.
You do however get to log into a wallet that has grown 50-60mil in profit overnight or while you make active isk generation Aussie TZ pvp corp AuPac is recruiting |
Norjia Blacksteel
Blacksteel Mining and Manufacturing Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium
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Posted - 2008.04.08 13:31:00 -
[29]
Originally by: PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik the people posting above that think manufacturers dont make a profit are delusional.
Yup. We stand by our name, especially the "Manufacturing" part. We manufacture and sell T1 cruisers and battleships, and we make good money.
But defintely get a spreadsheet going to monitor your costs. Example:
We were making and selling Iteron IIIs for 10% profit for months. Then, inexplicably, the price started dropping. It went to -10% (we stopped making them at 7%). I almost forgot about that market. Then months later, I checked back, and it was at 25% profit. So we're making them again. But the price has begun to drop again over the last couple weeks.
Monitor your costs and profits very carefully, and you can do well manufacturing.
---- Norjia Blacksteel CEO Blacksteel Mining and Manufacturing |
MilowFV
Echo Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.04.08 13:33:00 -
[30]
I dont necessarly view ore I ve mined as free but it usually dosnt really cost me anything time wise as I am doing something else and just moving ore to a jet can ever 5 min or so with out paying attention. So that ore dosnt have any other opertunity cost as I cannt be ratting or missioning, but I can be mining. Lot of folks mine that way. Now after saying that I alway check the market to see if I am better off selling the ore to someone else or using it to build something, but I understand sometimes when folk talk about free minerals.
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