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Alora Venoda
GalTech Giant Space Amoeba
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Posted - 2008.04.08 22:31:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Alora Venoda on 08/04/2008 22:37:55
Originally by: Slade Trillgon
No joke, your kidding me right.
What I am talking about is how others say my minerals are free since I mined. While others others say no they are not you are selling you ship at a loss since you are not counting your time to mine the minerals into the sale price.
If a pilot mines mins AFK (during time where they would otherwise not be online making zero isk) and then sells the ship below mineral price one does not need to calculate mineral price into their sale price as heavily since their time otherwise would not have made any isk.
EDIT: I know that these manufactures could sell the minerals for more isk, butif their end game is to produce then them selling their ships at lower then mineral cost is not truely selling at a loss since they do not truely spend ingame time mining.
Does this make any since or am a blowing hot air?
Slade
i think i understand your argument. but you can't truly mine AFK unless you macro... however, many times i mine for a long time SEMI-afk when i would not otherwise be playing EVE at all or just sitting idle in a station to chat or something.
and so it sounds like your argument is that your profit margin on this "cheap ore" might be better than "normal ore" because you obtained it via "outsourcing" kind of...
but ore in hand is still worth what you can sell it for. it does not make sense to take 90 mill worth of minerals, no matter how you obtained it, and then turn around and sell it for 80 mill. if you obtained it apart from direct purchase (ie- mining, reprocessing trash loot, ore theft), then your wallet will always show a gain regardless, but you still missed out on 10 mill that you could have made by selling the raw materials.
comparing mining to manufacturing "profit" is really like comparing apples and oranges. to make sense of this you have to break it up into two separate transactions:
1) mine and sell minerals (to yourself)
2) buy the minerals (from yourself) then build a product and sell it
since the mining process is pure acquisition you can only calculate ISK/hr or whatever. but manufacturing is basically a form of trade, and you can lose ISK if you sell for less than the market value of the minerals. in that case, it would be better to just sell the raw materials.
even if you had STOLEN the ore, and got it all for free, you still want to turn it into the most ISK possible... which means building the product with the highest profit margin over the raw material value.
~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ Take away the risk and it would make flying around in space utterly pointless.
Take away the flying around part and you make EVE into a space themed spreadsheet application. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.04.08 22:40:00 -
[62]
Alora Venoda beat me to the punch.
To reiterate, for every manufacture job (especially for those with "minerals from ore you mined yourself"), you have to split the process into two parts : 1. Buying the minerals/components from yourself (at the price you would have sold them to somebody else) - that's not manufacture profit, that's mining income 2. Selling the manufactured end-product, and computing the profit of this step alone as sales value minus value from point 1
If 2 is not profitable, skip it altogether. Still, if you feel charitable and like giving ISK away, then by all means, do it. Somebody will pick up your ship, recycle it, and sell the minerals.
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Slade Trillgon
Siorai Iontach Brotherhood of the Spider
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Posted - 2008.04.08 22:53:00 -
[63]
Alora and Akita for the 1-2 combo and a knock out.
Point made and recieved.
Slade
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Terminus adacai
Auroran PeaceKeepers Northern Regions Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.08 23:00:00 -
[64]
According to BC's current mineral prices, the build cost for a Raven is about 84,086,729.95 ISK/Unit. Selling it for a 10% profit would be 92,495,402.95 ISK/Unit. That is for a BPO with ME:24.
Opinions reflected on my posts are just that, my opinions. They do not reflect views held by my corp or alliance. |
Wet Ferret
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.04.08 23:00:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Akita T Alora Venoda beat me to the punch.
To reiterate, for every manufacture job (especially for those with "minerals from ore you mined yourself"), you have to split the process into two parts : 1. Buying the minerals/components from yourself (at the price you would have sold them to somebody else) - that's not manufacture profit, that's mining income 2. Selling the manufactured end-product, and computing the profit of this step alone as sales value minus value from point 1
If 2 is not profitable, skip it altogether. Still, if you feel charitable and like giving ISK away, then by all means, do it. Somebody will pick up your ship, recycle it, and sell the minerals.
And if the time to sell the minerals is 10x longer than it would take to sell a built ship, then what is it's value then?
I have about 300mil worth of minerals that I could use to build three Ravens with for about 270mil. I bet it would take me a month or more to sell all of those minerals via sell orders (they are worth much, much less if sold to the highest buy order). And probably less than a week to sell three Ravens (90 mil would be a couple mil lower than average in the region I live in).
Making the ships bring in slightly less isk, for a lot less work because I don't have to pay attention to the market and screw with sell orders or haul to the nearest HUB because my minerals are worth even less if I try to sell them a few systems out.
In short, building ships and selling "at a loss" is not only completely justified in my situation, but IMHO not a loss at all. But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.04.08 23:03:00 -
[66]
Like I said... "Minerals are worth exactly as much as somebody is willing to pay for them. It's THAT simple."
I should have probably added the following, however... "At that specific location. Within a certain timeframe."
Devil's in the details, as they say.
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Rebal 88
Deep Space Consortium Black Core Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.08 23:07:00 -
[67]
Build Sell ??? Profit
ya idk
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Quelque Chose
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.04.08 23:40:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Quelque Chose on 08/04/2008 23:40:17
Originally by: Wet Ferret
I have about 300mil worth of minerals that I could use to build three Ravens with for about 270mil. I bet it would take me a month or more to sell all of those minerals via sell orders (they are worth much, much less if sold to the highest buy order).
Yeah, if you're trying to get regional avg. + 50% from a sell order then sure it's going to take you some time. If you value your minerals that way then my iteron III full of pyerite is worth upwards of 6bn, isn't it?
I always calculate my margin based on highest buy order that I would actually sell to on the date of manufacture. If you really want to be stuffy about it you can use regional average instead or even one of the mineral indexes people have put up. But to say that it's just okeydokey to sell a Raven for 30m because you can't get 700 isk/ unit for isogen this week is to deny common sense.
And yes that's an absurdified version of what you're saying but then again I think that what you're saying is stretching the matter to absurd limits already.
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Wet Ferret
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.04.09 01:32:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Wet Ferret on 09/04/2008 01:32:47
Originally by: Quelque Chose Edited by: Quelque Chose on 08/04/2008 23:40:17
Originally by: Wet Ferret
I have about 300mil worth of minerals that I could use to build three Ravens with for about 270mil. I bet it would take me a month or more to sell all of those minerals via sell orders (they are worth much, much less if sold to the highest buy order).
Yeah, if you're trying to get regional avg. + 50% from a sell order then sure it's going to take you some time. If you value your minerals that way then my iteron III full of pyerite is worth upwards of 6bn, isn't it?
What are you on about? I said 300 mil worth of minerals not "300 mil worth of minerals that I will try to sell for 450 mil". I go by lowest SELL orders (or what I think is reasonable but close to the best sell order) because the best buy orders are usually A) not very good prices to begin with, B) not enough volume to match my supply or C) out in low-sec where I am definitely not taking a hauler full of minerals. But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started.
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Cloora
Black River Industries
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Posted - 2008.04.09 01:58:00 -
[70]
You people that keep thinking the minerals you mine are for free are killing me.
I mine, obviously, look at my sig. BUT! You have to PAY yourself for time spent mining. I don't care if you do it with 3 alts full time like I do, or you do it semi-AFK with one hulk and Cargo expanders and rigs (if I set mine up like that I can walk away for 15 minutes before I have to come back). Either way, if you can sell the minerals on SELL orders on the market for more then you can if you spend the ISK on either a BPO and research it or buy BPCs off contracts and build a ship then you are doing something wrong.
Building a ship is not fun in itself. Its click click and wait 3 hours ding! its done.
BUT if you do it right then you make oodles of ISK. *looks at her wallet* yeah trust me.
1) You need Production Efficiency level 5
2) You either need a researched BPO or you need to buy BPC off contracts. ME 25 would be good
3) A hauler to get enough minerals for what you are buying. (Freighters are wonderful and not too risky with an alt webber)
4) A mission running station that is busy, but not too busy as to have tons of other people competing for business.
Now once you have a decent bankroll to start with. Let's say one billion ISK after you have some BPCs or a BPO (researched) then you can start doing buy orders for minerals. Play with the market, buy as low as you can in a range comfertable for you to haul in (I only set 2 jumps buy orders myself) and keep an eye open for changes in others buy orders that may be over yours.
Don't panic if you find a station buy order in your range that is a lot higher then yours. You decide if it is worth it to forfeit that station until his buy order fills. If someone is fighting you on a range that takes a big chunk of your area you have to be careful and decide how high you want to adjust.
You have an obvious advantage if you can babysit your order and adjust it on the penny right after your competitor does. This ensures your order is on top most of the time and fills first.
Once all your orders are filled gather it all up.
Produce said ships.
Sell according to market demand. Remember, if no one is selling what you are selling in that station, you can set a higher price then other station in the system or in nearby systems. Why? Because you are at the station that the mission running agent is in, and people are lazy and will pay more to not have to move. But be reasonable still or your stuff never sells.
PROFIT!
I can't make Ravens and Drakes as fast as they sell.
It is a lucrative business and I should not be giving away all these tips to my competitors but ah well. I'm a nice guy.
This is my Opinion and not that of Black River Industries or any of its members. |
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Lord Fitz
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Posted - 2008.04.09 05:23:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Slade Trillgon EDIT: I know that these manufactures could sell the minerals for more isk, butif their end game is to produce then them selling their ships at lower then mineral cost is not truely selling at a loss since they do not truely spend ingame time mining.
Their wallet doesn't go down, but they would be making money mining, and losing money by turning valuable minerals into a less valuable ship using a BPO/BPC.
There's only one advantage to selling a built ship over the minerals seperately in the case where you get less for the ship than the minerals, and that is if selling the ship is easier than selling the minerals, or if you can sell the ship in 0.0, but to get that value for the minerals you would have to haul back to empire etc. Basically where the process of turning it into a ship saves you more time micromanaging orders/moving things than it costs you in lost income. Generally though, in empire, most minerals are easier to sell than ships, as ships have a specific market, only people looking for that one ship (out of a few hundred), whereas minerals sell to anyone who wants to build any of thousands of items. Once you get to quieter markets though, the ships become slightly easier to sell (less builders) and the minerals harder to sell (less builders). Which means alot more profit usually, but not always, it only takes one builder who thinks his minerals are free to make it not worth you building you can sell them the minerals, have them do the work and just profit.
It would be like people moon mining and selling the minerals for less than the cost of the fuel, the end result is you get the moon minerals, but if you could buy them for less than the fuel cost why would you go to all that effort of maintaing a POS to make a LOSS ! Now in this market you actually get some people that have another reason, and the mining of the minerals is incidental as they have the tower up anyway so anything they get back simply offsets the loss they were going to make, which explains why some sell for less than their production cost.
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cal nereus
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Posted - 2008.04.09 05:30:00 -
[72]
Sell ships in 0.0, and you'll be golden.
In high-sec, only the most efficient of producers can really hope to make a profit, and even then, some ship prices are at a stage at which none of the sellers are making a profit right now. That doesn't stop some of them from making the ships though... good for the buyers at least. ---
Join BH-DL Skills |
Quelque Chose
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Posted - 2008.04.09 06:01:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Wet Ferret What are you on about? I said 300 mil worth of minerals not "300 mil worth of minerals that I will try to sell for 450 mil". I go by lowest SELL orders (or what I think is reasonable but close to the best sell order) because the best buy orders are usually A) not very good prices to begin with, B) not enough volume to match my supply or C) out in low-sec where I am definitely not taking a hauler full of minerals.
*goes over regional mineral market for about the third time today*
You're just making this **** up as you go, aren't you?
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2008.04.09 09:14:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Quelque Chose
Originally by: Wet Ferret What are you on about? I said 300 mil worth of minerals not "300 mil worth of minerals that I will try to sell for 450 mil". I go by lowest SELL orders (or what I think is reasonable but close to the best sell order) because the best buy orders are usually A) not very good prices to begin with, B) not enough volume to match my supply or C) out in low-sec where I am definitely not taking a hauler full of minerals.
*goes over regional mineral market for about the third time today*
You're just making this **** up as you go, aren't you?
Yeah, you're right. I forgot that we all live in the same region. Silly me. But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
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Posted - 2008.04.09 16:02:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Cloora You people have no idea how to run an investment.
You don't make you money when you sell, you make money when you buy. This is an often overlooked fact of investing.
I make Ravens for 79 million a pop and sell them for 90.5 million in LoneTrek.
Its buying the minerals cheap is how you make the ISK. Not selling ships high.
You people need to read up on some investment materials and educate on how it works.
my figures say damn near the same thing (only they are a bit old, so I didn't want to use them)
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
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Posted - 2008.04.09 16:09:00 -
[76]
oh, and i stopped mining (on my alt, chainsaw has mining lv1 ftw!) and started mission running as it got me that isk faster. reprocessing t1 loot and drone alloys gets me a better amount of minerals (or at least it feels like it, seem to get about 1000m3 of loots for most missions, drone or pirates)
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