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Xia Xiou
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.03.27 22:00:00 -
[1]
Before I being, let me admit that I am a noob and I am seeking answers, not trying to make a statement.
Artillery on the battleship scale has a poor reputation on these boards. I was curious as to why, so I went into EFT to play around with set-ups to see if this was just rumor or if there is fact involved. I found what most people already know. Artillery has poor tracking, damage and clipsize plus it is a nightmare to fit. It has no range advantage over other turrets. Its positives are max alpha, no cap use and somewhat variable damage type although that gets thrown out when t2 ammo comes into play.
As a minnie player, I tried to look for way to minimize the negative and accentuate the positive, but that proved difficult. The alpha is nice for gaudy numbers, but its only useful if you can one volley something. The lack of cap use doesn't seem like much of an advantage on a sniper ship, unlike an AC boat your not going to get nossed or nuetted at that range, althought it could be nice for PvE I suppose. And most other ships have the cap to support their weapons anyways (even Amarr as long as they have the SP if I am not mistaken) And with t2 ammo you lose the ability to pick your damage, although you do still have the option to downgrade to faction or standard ammo if you have to.
Those positives balanced against the terrible tracking, damage and reload issues don't seem like very much. For the record, I did check with ship bonus's added in and it just didn't seem to matter.
I really want to like artillery. I like the look, sound, style of the Minnie ships and their artillery. But I can't help but feel that I am shooting myself in the foot if I spend the time to train for t2 large arties.
I would really like it if someone could explain that I am wrong and tell me what I am missing about arty that makes it as good as rails and beams, and maybe a set up or two to train for.
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Miss Krunk
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.03.27 22:25:00 -
[2]
save yourself some trouble and get a raven like everone else
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Ecky X
The Aforementioned Red Republic
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Posted - 2008.03.27 22:29:00 -
[3]
I keep looking for a reason to train them, but there is always something more useful. Like... underwater basket weaving V.
Large arty does need love, in some form or another. 1400's offer no noticable DPS increase, and there are only 2 tiers of guns to choose from.
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DiuxDium
Clown College Clown Punchers Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.03.27 22:29:00 -
[4]
Alpha ------------- Hello America |
Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves Black Star Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.27 22:32:00 -
[5]
Regrettably your analysis is pretty much spot on. For PvE, arty is fairly worthless due to abysmal dps only made worse by the small clip size and the gimped projectile T1 ammo. For PvP, all the HP boosts we got in the last 2-3 years have made alpha strike fairly unimportant (except maybe in big longrange fleets which is a type of combat I avoid at all costs) and like you said, not using cap is not really an advantage for an arty sniper. The main thing arty got going for it imho is the sound effect of 1200s, I guess that says a lot. The only occasion where I, as someone who flies all races' Battleships, really use arty is when fitting a ship to try and instapop T1 cruisers. Large Projectile 5 is well worth training, but really only for ACs.
There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones |
demonfurbie
Covert-Nexus
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Posted - 2008.03.27 22:33:00 -
[6]
shooting at a pos
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Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.27 22:37:00 -
[7]
umm, its only worthwhile if you're Minmatar and need a fleet battleship. Any one will do, really, as long as you don't look stupid on your loss mail with T1 guns.
-Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance. |
Lego Maniac
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.03.27 22:39:00 -
[8]
- fleet sniping
- gate camping sitting 150km+ off
matar ships are not noob friendly, someone above me stated that ravens are good for mission running
also, artillery suck - this is an issue that lots of people have raised and will hopefully be balanced in the next "boost" patch... whenever that is
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Ecky X
The Aforementioned Red Republic
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Posted - 2008.03.27 22:48:00 -
[9]
If I may throw out a suggestion...
Drop the grid requirements a bit, and maybe drop the Maelstrom's PG a bit to match it. Give it a slight damage boost, maybe 5-7.5%, and evaluate the changes for a month or 2.
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Xia Xiou
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.03.27 22:54:00 -
[10]
No Caldari for me =) I can fly a minnie bs, but I have been crosstraining into Gallente. I will probably just go all out Gallente with rails and drones.
I just like the look of minnie ships. The Hurricane and Tempest are some of my favs in the whole game. Plus I didn't see anything wrong with AC's. Their damage is a bit low also it seems, but the no cap use does mean something at point blank and there are no issues with AC tracking.
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Marcus TheMartin
Tuxedo.
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Posted - 2008.03.27 22:56:00 -
[11]
the ability to instapop small things
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Niffetin
Omni Research
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Posted - 2008.03.27 22:58:00 -
[12]
Originally by: DiuxDium Alpha
Just train Tachyons, more alpha than the crappy Arties
(And I have Large Arty Spec <.<) --- Teeheee! mematar's Video Archive |
RedeyeAce
Demogorgon's Army Atrox Urbanis Respublique Abundatia
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Posted - 2008.03.27 23:29:00 -
[13]
Im kinda hoping minmatar get shown some love, it seems that most peeps agree there are probably a small number of issues that needs addressing since the last 3 years of other racial changes. Dont go for flavour of the month.. Unfortunately arties are a bit borked.. and with Large AC's it seems to be just fit the smallest D425's, better tracking, so on the way in = better hits,with sub bc ships = better hits and with a web u can hit frigs.. try that with 800's and if ur EFT warrioring it shows the dps isnt much between them.. in experience i'd say cos of the tracking.. I'll be sticking with my D425's TYVM
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Royaldo
Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.28 00:12:00 -
[14]
because its cool, because god, jesus and satan trains railguns and tachyons.
and in around 2 years it will pawn everything for around 2-3 months.
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Benco97
Exchangable Properties
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Posted - 2008.03.28 00:18:00 -
[15]
To shoot large bullets of course! That's good enough for me.
Originally by: Kirjava This man speaks the truth, when he farts we count the length in seconds and make squillions buying winning lottery tickets.
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SERGI MANESTI
Republic University
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Posted - 2008.03.28 00:28:00 -
[16]
lol.. bullets so large you can't fit 10 of them into your gun...
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chillz
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.03.28 01:12:00 -
[17]
They do put bloody great big holes in things though. ----------------------------------- A gun and a packet of sandwiches.
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - Hunter S Thompson
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Megan Maynard
Out of Order
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Posted - 2008.03.28 01:19:00 -
[18]
Because the autocannons are good.
Most will disagree with me on that btw. I think they just want the balance of the game to be in their favor. Miz Stelth Bomerz iz the ****nit. |
Athar Mu
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.03.28 01:37:00 -
[19]
Hang on, back up, Eve has sound?!!
Anyway, you are pretty much spot on with your analysis of it. The only reason I'm training up Arties is so I can have a fleet BS...
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DiuxDium
Clown College Clown Punchers Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.03.28 03:09:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Niffetin
Originally by: DiuxDium Alpha
Just train Tachyons, more alpha than the crappy Arties
(And I have Large Arty Spec <.<)
By about 150 Alpha on Tier 2 BS. Of course you have to consider that you need an RCU II to fit a rack of Tach II's. While the Tempest can fit a full rack of 1400 II's without any fitting mods.
That's just for the guns of course.
The alpha difference isn't huge, but the fitting reqs are massive. ------------- Hello America |
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MinerChick
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.28 03:13:00 -
[21]
So is the DPS. Also the fact that artillery has to reload every ten shots.
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DiuxDium
Clown College Clown Punchers Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.03.28 03:19:00 -
[22]
Originally by: MinerChick So is the DPS. Also the fact that artillery has to reload every ten shots.
DPS means all but nothing in any gang with more than 15 members. As long as they're not complete idiots, they will know how to target and shoot the primary. 2 salvos from each member is usually all it takes. ------------- Hello America |
Ecky X
The Aforementioned Red Republic
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Posted - 2008.03.28 04:41:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Ecky X on 28/03/2008 04:41:37
Originally by: DiuxDium
By about 150 Alpha on Tier 2 BS. Of course you have to consider that you need an RCU II to fit a rack of Tach II's. While the Tempest can fit a full rack of 1400 II's without any fitting mods.
That's just for the guns of course.
The alpha difference isn't huge, but the fitting reqs are massive.
The tempest has 70 free powergrid with AWU V. With AWU IV, you need about 400 more. Artillery pretty much makes armor tanking out of the question - It takes 2 reactor controls to fit a MWD, injector, and shield booster... assuming AWU V (3 RCU if AWU is IV).
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6Bagheera9
Foundation R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.03.28 04:51:00 -
[24]
T2 Large Arties = 150km fleet fights. You'll see them occasionally at gate camps and I have a few ideas concerning 1200mm IIs on Maelstroms, but generally it boils down to fleet fights. Large ACs are another matter, the extra damage and the +10km range from barrage are most welcome. Specifically a T2 800mm Maelstrom is a beast, and with crystals and boosters they are practically mini-dreads. And anyone who knows what a fall-off tempest is rightly fears them.
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MinerChick
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.28 04:55:00 -
[25]
Originally by: DiuxDium
Originally by: MinerChick So is the DPS. Also the fact that artillery has to reload every ten shots.
DPS means all but nothing in any gang with more than 15 members. As long as they're not complete idiots, they will know how to target and shoot the primary. 2 salvos from each member is usually all it takes.
Ok well Then if DPS does not matter what about the fact that ever 5 targets you are reloading your guns if you use two shots on each target? Ammar will not have to reload. The rails can go for much much longer.
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State OFMInd
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.03.28 05:31:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Ecky X Edited by: Ecky X on 28/03/2008 04:41:37
Originally by: DiuxDium
By about 150 Alpha on Tier 2 BS. Of course you have to consider that you need an RCU II to fit a rack of Tach II's. While the Tempest can fit a full rack of 1400 II's without any fitting mods.
That's just for the guns of course.
The alpha difference isn't huge, but the fitting reqs are massive.
The tempest has 70 free powergrid with AWU V. With AWU IV, you need about 400 more. Artillery pretty much makes armor tanking out of the question - It takes 2 reactor controls to fit a MWD, injector, and shield booster... assuming AWU V (3 RCU if AWU is IV).
It's what we call an example.
Guess how many RCU II's you need to fit an Injector, Shield booster????, MWD, and w/e else on an amaar Tier 2 BS.
Also, if you use tachs, you have to fly Amaar lol...
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Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.28 05:32:00 -
[27]
Originally by: MinerChick
Ok well Then if DPS does not matter what about the fact that ever 5 targets you are reloading your guns if you use two shots on each target? Ammar will not have to reload. The rails can go for much much longer.
Well, it's not strictly true that Amarr never have to reload... it's simply that they choose not to. Taking a small "breather" is very much the same idea as reloading.
Really, I'd say that "no reloading" and "no ammo" is roughly balanced by capacitor use. I know I'll be flamed for that one though (because "cap boosters are our ammo", to which I'll retort that your ammo naturally recharges over time, and you're simply not giving it time to, to which you'll respond that capacitor is used for lots of things and it really isn't fair that you have to train capacitor skills and deal crappy EM damage, to which I'll respond that your damage types got boosted recently, and even previously, EM was not that bad of a damage type (all things considered), to which you'll respond that EM sucks and I'm an idiot and Amarr are the worst race on the planet and 1400mm arties are *way* superior to anything in the whole world just because they don't use capacitor, to which I'll respond that you're a flaming idiot because you have better alpha, DPS, and range, to which you'll respond that you have crappy fittings, DPS sucks because it's EM, your range sucks unless you're in the Apoc, to which I'll respond that you do indeed have the Apoc which can fit Tachs reasonably well, to which you'll respond that it somehow doesn't count, and you'll bring up no cap use again).
Essentially, 1400mm arties are overpowered because they don't use capacitor. According to some Amarrian whiners. I disagree.
-Liang
-Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance. |
State OFMInd
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.03.28 05:36:00 -
[28]
Edited by: State OFMInd on 28/03/2008 05:38:02
Originally by: MinerChick
Originally by: DiuxDium
Originally by: MinerChick So is the DPS. Also the fact that artillery has to reload every ten shots.
DPS means all but nothing in any gang with more than 15 members. As long as they're not complete idiots, they will know how to target and shoot the primary. 2 salvos from each member is usually all it takes.
Ok well Then if DPS does not matter what about the fact that ever 5 targets you are reloading your guns if you use two shots on each target? Ammar will not have to reload. The rails can go for much much longer.
I've yet to be in a fleet situation where I was able to shoot at 5 targets tbh, so who knows.
For anything other than 150+ fleet blobs 1200's are superior, while still packing huge Alpha and much easier fitting Req's.
Alpha is why you fit Art. What more needs to be said in this thread?
lol amaar also have to reload though, it's called capping out.
Tachs in low-sec gate camps are the bomb though. No doubt. I miss the days of stabbed up Apocs sitting off gates aligned...
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Zaran Darkstar
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.03.28 05:46:00 -
[29]
Well as i see it both guns 1200 and 1400 need to double the bullet capacity. Apart that i think is ok to be weaker than their counter parts since they don't use cap. Also it fits RP since the Minmatar are suposed to be lacking in technology.
And another thing about the damage. With the ship bonuses the Artilleries are only slighhtly inferior in damage but again the no cap use is very beneficial in PvE. The other race ships have better ship capacitors but not enough to be able to fire their guns. That means that the minmatar ships have a positive capacitor considering all guns being fired compaired to the other races that don't have a positive capacitor balance without any cap modules fitted _______________________________ Join the biggest Minmatar Corp! www.BrutorTribe.com
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Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.28 06:04:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Zaran Darkstar Well as i see it both guns 1200 and 1400 need to double the bullet capacity. Apart that i think is ok to be weaker than their counter parts since they don't use cap. Also it fits RP since the Minmatar are suposed to be lacking in technology.
And another thing about the damage. With the ship bonuses the Artilleries are only slighhtly inferior in damage but again the no cap use is very beneficial in PvE. The other race ships have better ship capacitors but not enough to be able to fire their guns. That means that the minmatar ships have a positive capacitor considering all guns being fired compaired to the other races that don't have a positive capacitor balance without any cap modules fitted
Eh, I think you're mostly right. Each race should have a natural flavor, and be naturally strong at certain things. Amarr should have the best battleships and capitals. Minmatar should have be best frigates and cruisers. Gallente should be masters of drones and "personal" combat. Caldari should be masters of specialization and range.
But the thing that really gets my goat is that people will take this "racial flavoring" and justify another ship sucking because it fits the mold. Then they don't apply the same mold to the ships that they fly.
You'll see people complain that the Vaga's "better" than the Zealot (which is only arguable these days), and then immediately go make a post saying that it's fine that the Tempest and Phoon are complete crap (well, the Phoon's not crap if you have 40M SP devoted to it...)
Meh, I'm not saying your wrong, or anything, but I am saying that Artillery (especially battleship artillery) is just plain bad. If I didn't have to train it for a warm body in a fleet battleship, I wouldn't.
-Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance. |
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