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Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2008.04.10 03:16:00 -
[361]
Quote:
mael actually was a fault as an arty platform, t3 ship by design had 1 dmg + 1 tank bonus with hype that had to be a fast close range ship while other 3 where supposed to be long range platforms.
the problem here is that shield boost bonus is useless in any situation cept small gang whitout logistic so its fail in its supposed role.
the description of mael so was changed from arty platform to "versatile ship" (read my sig) so i kinda agree with the other poster that minnies atm have no real dedicated fleet bs
about the comparsion, you can compare it even to an ab, and it still fall short behind it
edit and the comparsion between apoc and mael was made by goum trying to show that mael was superior to apoc, he asked for apoc setup to be able to mimic mael stats, and as we see by various post he got a lot of them :P
In my opinion maelstrom should stay as a heavy skirmisher and the tempest should be improved to be a good sniper. But that is a matter of personal taste. The battleships are not the main problem, artillery is, it is far behind the other long range weapon systems, and must be improved in some way.
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"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Jet Collins
Dynamic Endeavors
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Posted - 2008.04.11 15:41:00 -
[362]
Edited by: Jet Collins on 11/04/2008 15:41:47 People are making some every good points. In my personal oppinon I think the Clip size deffinalty needs to be increased first and formost than from there maybe DPS or Rof. As much as I think the Minmatar need a good Alpha I know ccp will probbaly avoid more dps so there will be less insta poping.
But with that if someone has a link or willing to do the work I would love to see this information once again with current stats.
All minmatar BS's fitted with Arties and all standard ammo types.
All other race BS's fitted with long range weapons and Ammo types.
What I would be looking for is DPS over time and range.
I think what it should show is ships which have the shortest range should do the most damage in a short peroid of time ships with longer range will do less damage but more over time.
Ie if you closer you need to kill the target befor it get to you. If you have long range you have more time to kill it so you should require less damage.
Makes to much since right. Dynamic Endeavors is now Recuiting.!!
Contact me in game for deatails about the corp. Mostly a PvE corp, with Jump clones avaiale in Empire and 0.0. |
Polkageist
Minmatar The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.11 17:20:00 -
[363]
i like artillery
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 18:24:00 -
[364]
Originally by: Ecky X I keep looking for a reason to train them, but there is always something more useful. Like... underwater basket weaving V.
I lol'd, HARD
Yes i know i spelled COAD wrong. Stop mailing me about it
I refuse to read SHC |
Nerogk Shorn
Caldari Royal Hiigaran Navy
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Posted - 2008.05.15 03:01:00 -
[365]
I support this thread. I also support Liang. Essentially in basically every thread on non-Amarr ships that are bad i've seen Goum saying that they aren't bad with flawed and repetetive arguments, at which he usually brings up that Amarr are terrible. I've also seen him in threads about Amarr fully supporting them getting boosted in every which way, because they are so terrible.
I have flown with an Amarr pilot for over 40 months (he's my CEO and good friend) and i know how damn good they are and can be. There was a time when they're ships seemed very similar, and I didn't deny that the Apoc was pretty boring and bad, but Arma (my CEO) always fitted them well, and he always pwned with them. I've seen his Tach-Abaddon do over 1000 dps, almost taking down an armor tanked battleship, when he was 1vs4 battleships. I also know that he trained up for Howitzers and Tempests cause he liked their idea so much. Then he realized that he couldn't get near the same DPS (i think like 400 less), and their tracking wasn't good. My friend, who has flown both types, strongly supports using Tachs, as they are much better.
I fly a Tempest, and while it's basically impossible to fit anything after the 1400's, they really aren't that good. They are fun and exciting, but so not worth it. The alpha is nice, about the same as Tachyons, but the rof is soooo much worse. Basically this day and age, when things orbiting at 150km can't be hit cause they have a mwd, basically means that there is no point to use the guns. The guns, are truly embarassing nowadays. Considering how much Minmatar ships take for training already, they used to be feared when a skilled pilot came around. Nowadays they are just laughed at unless they are in a vagabond or rapier.
The Bulbasaur Wizard D-F-A-A-B-A-A-S
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Byzan Zwyth
Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2008.05.15 03:59:00 -
[366]
well if you are a mini pilot and you want to snipe you need to train them.
pretty simple
as for their performance
+ve Good alpha no cap use sound cool
-ve slightly lower DPS than rails & Lasers
the lower range is made up for by the larger falloff so that's not really a -ve
Honestly you cant expect to have everything in a weapon, it's called balance.
I'm a rail user and like my Mega but cap is a huge issue. on a sniper setup with MWD fitted just shooting railguns will cap you out. I often fit a cap mod just to feed my weapons, it also means you really have to balance your rail & MWD usage. Does not give you much cap at all for remote repping either.
It's a tough price to pay for a little bit extra damage, you run out of cap and your DPS becomes 0... Simple as that
If Arti's got a small DPS boost to be on par with Rail guns. Rails would have no advantages at all.
It was not long ago the Temp was considered the best all-round sniper and I still agree with that. Not much has changed since then apart from the EM resist changes which helped lasers.
All races have their strengths ans weaknesses in areas/classes. You have to ask yourself if it's worth cross training to use a class of ship in another race. Like is it worth 3+ months training to snipe with another races battleships? I dont think so, when you think about it you could have spent that time getting a higher spec in your normal race than what most people train for. Sig removed. Lacks EVE related content. For more information feel free to contact [email protected]. ~Saint |
Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.05.15 04:08:00 -
[367]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 15/05/2008 04:10:17
Originally by: Byzan Zwyth
It was not long ago the Temp was considered the best all-round sniper and I still agree with that. Not much has changed since then apart from the EM resist changes which helped lasers.
Oh Really? Off the top of my head while I wait for this test to run: - HP Boosts - Rigs - Plates unstack nerfed - Bigger Blobs - EM Resist change - Sensor boosters - Tracking computers
Out of time, but I think that's a bit more than "not much". If you'd like me to run the numbers for the Rokh or Mega, that'd be fine as well. Suffice it to say that DPS will win (again).
At any rate, we all know about capacitor issues, and we just (a month ago) spent this entire thread showing that cap usage doesn't make up for the total overwhelming suckiness of arties.
-Liang
Ed: I would ask you to go look at how falloff works though, since I'm not entirely sure you know. Suffice it to say that falloff allows you to hit, but reduces your DPS. Optimal + falloff is 1/2 DPS, and Optimal + 2x Falloff is nothing.
I think you'll see that with rails (especially from the Mega), you end up vastly superior to the Tempest or Maelstrom.
Also, did you read the thread? The Tempest is subpar in every single way to the Maelstrom. And then you say the Tempest (in your opinion) is the best sniper?! -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved. |
Kelbesque Crystalis
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.05.15 04:20:00 -
[368]
Edited by: Kelbesque Crystalis on 15/05/2008 04:21:51
Originally by: Byzan Zwyth
the lower range is made up for by the larger falloff so that's not really a
No it doesn't. Just pull up a DPS vs. range graph and see. Having 20km more falloff doesn't help when you are short 50km in optimal.
Originally by: Byzan Zwyth
If Arti's got a small DPS boost to be on par with Rail guns. Rails would have no advantages at all.
Tracking kin/therm dmg (fllexible vs armor and shields) Range easier fitting
Originally by: Byzan Zwyth
All races have their strengths ans weaknesses in areas/classes. You have to ask yourself if it's worth cross training to use a class of ship in another race. Like is it worth 3+ months training to snipe with another races battleships? I dont think so, when you think about it you could have spent that time getting a higher spec in your normal race than what most people train for.
For fleet fights, just spending the time to get Amarr BS 4/Large energy 4 would serve me better than my T2 1400's that I already have trained. I agree, some race has to be the best, and not every race can be the best at everything. Buy when T1 guns of one race outclass T2 guns of another for a particular role that happens to be a common role, it is disheartening.
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Byzan Zwyth
Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2008.05.15 04:38:00 -
[369]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
stuff
not all those changes were since the sniper comparison thread I remember, it was not that long ago. And dont forget before all those changes the temp pretty much was the king of snipers. If anything they have been balanced.
when conparing ships for a sniper there is more than just DPS to consider. DPS Range Speed Cap Ease of fitting Cost of fitting Manoverability (how fast you can allign will mean life/death in my experience) Speed (getting out of sram range/bubbles ect = life or death)
For me those last two are almost enough to rule some of the bigger ships out and they are a strong point for the temp. If I survive a fight in a sinper most of the time it's because of these factors more than anything else.
I know how range/falloff works, means arti's lose DPS earlier than rails but at a slower rate than rails as range increases.
anyway, arti's sound awesome. Large rails sound crap :(
people make things sound so bad on the forums, honestly I dont think it's that bad at all in game, that's all I'm saying. There are more things to consider than two lines on a graph. Sig removed. Lacks EVE related content. For more information feel free to contact [email protected]. ~Saint |
Ortos
Abyssus Incendia THORN Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.15 04:51:00 -
[370]
Edited by: Ortos on 15/05/2008 04:52:12
Originally by: Byzan Zwyth
All races have their strengths ans weaknesses in areas/classes. You have to ask yourself if it's worth cross training to use a class of ship in another race. Like is it worth 3+ months training to snipe with another races battleships? I dont think so, when you think about it you could have spent that time getting a higher spec in your normal race than what most people train for.
Just about maxed out on artillery, dont think my artillery skills can get much better. Am I concidering to train for 3+ months to snipe with another races battleship?
Yep.
Oh, and Cap Usage doesnt really even mather. At all.
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Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.05.15 04:51:00 -
[371]
Originally by: Byzan Zwyth
people make things sound so bad on the forums, honestly I dont think it's that bad at all in game, that's all I'm saying. There are more things to consider than two lines on a graph.
Why, yes, there are. But if all the significant variables are included on the chart, it's going to be reasonably accurate. Also, I've spent the last month fighting in fleets 5+ hours a day, and these observations panned out.
You will also note that I included the align time and lock time into the simulations. The point stands: Alpha, in its current incarnation, is not nearly as important as DPS and EHP.
-Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved. |
SickSeven
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Posted - 2008.06.21 14:28:00 -
[372]
I'd like to necro this because:
CCP NEEDS TO FIX ALL PROJECTILE WEAPONS!!!!!
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Jalif
Deviance Inc Nocturnal Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.21 14:34:00 -
[373]
Originally by: SickSeven I'd like to necro this because:
CCP NEEDS TO FIX ALL PROJECTILE WEAPONS!!!!!
Nice come-back for this topic. Didn't knwo that there were so many topics about the flaw of projectile weapons.... ************ BOOST MINMATAR!!! ************ |
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