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Kagura Nikon
Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.
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Posted - 2008.04.01 12:52:00 -
[181]
Originally by: Saietor Blackgreen
Originally by: Kagura Nikon BTW what i think we need is some changes to enhance alpha. Like Change Tempest and mael rof into damage. so temeps thas 10% damage per level and maesl 5% damage perlevel. THEN the alpha strike will be very superior and enough to be the difference.
This will reduce DPS. -5% ROF > +5% damage (33% vs 25% increase in DPS at level 5). But I can see where you're going.
Ships are fine though, its artillery that has problems. Why not just change artillery? +33% damage mod, +33% shot duration?
that is an option also, but when Revelation came, and this was proposed there was a massive crying that this would destroy pve .. I never understood that crying. But seems tuxford took it as community not wanting more alpha. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.04.01 16:15:00 -
[182]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
I woudl dare to say No. Youa re not reading coorret.
Maelstrom starts with clear advantage on other ships. TAchyon boats surpass him every few shots but maesltrom re gains lead when it shoots again. MAesltorm only loosses definetely the lead after the 4th shot. That is almost 40 secodns of fight. A VERY long time where almost any enemy would be dead.
Bear in mind those amarr ships are using tachyons, I wil put a mega beam evrsion so you can compare also. More alpha
Even with haigher DPS, the armageddon and APOC are supplanted byt the maelstrom every few shots. Only really taking the lead at the 48th second. An eternity.
That also shows that tachyons are so mcuh better than mega beams, mostly because they have good alpha.
Yes alpha is way less important than in past, but is still important. If you are in a maesltrom and your fleet kill an enemy on time you dealt 2 shot, you may be dure you are among the ones that dealt more damage to him.
Actually, having run the numbers last night, I'd say that in the ideal (lag free, homogeneous) fleet battle of any significant size, your effectiveness is 100% determined by DPS / EHP (providing you can hit the optimal required with decent tracking). Alpha strike is important in only the first 20-30 seconds of the entire fight, with high(er) DPS ships taking the lead thereafter.
Fast lock time and align time is important, but you're better off (generically) with a higher EHP / DPS ratio.
-Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance. |
Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.04.01 16:35:00 -
[183]
Originally by: Liang Nuren Actually, having run the numbers last night, I'd say that in the ideal (lag free, homogeneous) fleet battle of any significant size, your effectiveness is 100% determined by DPS / EHP (providing you can hit the optimal required with decent tracking). Alpha strike is important in only the first 20-30 seconds of the entire fight, with high(er) DPS ships taking the lead thereafter.
Fast lock time and align time is important, but you're better off (generically) with a higher EHP / DPS ratio.
-Liang
I would say that this is what I had always assumed. The length of time it takes for DPS to outpace alpha may vary but it inevitably will. Unless alpha can end a battle quickly DPS will take the field.
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Kagura Nikon
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Posted - 2008.04.01 17:44:00 -
[184]
Originally by: Derek Sigres
Originally by: Liang Nuren Actually, having run the numbers last night, I'd say that in the ideal (lag free, homogeneous) fleet battle of any significant size, your effectiveness is 100% determined by DPS / EHP (providing you can hit the optimal required with decent tracking). Alpha strike is important in only the first 20-30 seconds of the entire fight, with high(er) DPS ships taking the lead thereafter.
Fast lock time and align time is important, but you're better off (generically) with a higher EHP / DPS ratio.
-Liang
I would say that this is what I had always assumed. The length of time it takes for DPS to outpace alpha may vary but it inevitably will. Unless alpha can end a battle quickly DPS will take the field.
Each time a new target is called alpha reset. Specially now that battleships use only range scripts. That means that their weapons will always be ready to fire when they have finally locked their enemy.
Secondary and tertiary calling MIGHT diminish that, but smart targets warp out and back as soon as they see yellow brackets around them, so only a part of time you manage to use the preemptive target calling by the fleet commander. That means that both high dps and high alpha ships stay part of time waiting for target locks. And this hurts much more the high dps ships. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.04.01 18:56:00 -
[185]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Each time a new target is called alpha reset. Specially now that battleships use only range scripts. That means that their weapons will always be ready to fire when they have finally locked their enemy.
Secondary and tertiary calling MIGHT diminish that, but smart targets warp out and back as soon as they see yellow brackets around them, so only a part of time you manage to use the preemptive target calling by the fleet commander. That means that both high dps and high alpha ships stay part of time waiting for target locks. And this hurts much more the high dps ships.
Actually, alpha doesn't seem reset at the destruction of every target, mostly because you've (generically) got enough alpha to instapop any ship - and with higher rof ships, you simply do it more often.
-Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance. |
Kagura Nikon
Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.
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Posted - 2008.04.02 12:28:00 -
[186]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Each time a new target is called alpha reset. Specially now that battleships use only range scripts. That means that their weapons will always be ready to fire when they have finally locked their enemy.
Secondary and tertiary calling MIGHT diminish that, but smart targets warp out and back as soon as they see yellow brackets around them, so only a part of time you manage to use the preemptive target calling by the fleet commander. That means that both high dps and high alpha ships stay part of time waiting for target locks. And this hurts much more the high dps ships.
Actually, alpha doesn't seem reset at the destruction of every target, mostly because you've (generically) got enough alpha to instapop any ship - and with higher rof ships, you simply do it more often.
-Liang
On theory yes, But not on real terms. Most sniper fights are very lagged and takes lot of time to get all pilots targeted and shooting a single target. recently been in fleet fight with more than 100 Snipers at our side. And most targets were down only by the second volley of arties ( that is several volleys of other guns), some would survive to the 4th!. Simply because lots of time half people didn't loaded that guy in overview other half took more than 15 seconds to find it on overview, half was in a huge lag spike of 4 minutes to deal any command. Usually you will be hit by about 1/4 of enemy fleet when you are called primary before you die or warp out.
Fleet fights are very different from theory, lag and grid loading make sure of it. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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Lyria Skydancer
Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.04.02 12:30:00 -
[187]
Large arty has biggest damage mod and therefor is the bestest weapon with high damige. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II |
Jeetah
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.04.02 14:00:00 -
[188]
Originally by: Saietor Blackgreen This will reduce DPS. -5% ROF > +5% damage (33% vs 25% increase in DPS at level 5). But I can see where you're going.
I heard this so many times and I just can't understand it. So with 5% RoF bonus I have to reload more frequently, and yet I'm gaining more dps, than with 5% damage bonus? Why? |
Saietor Blackgreen
The First Foundation Circle-Of-Two
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Posted - 2008.04.02 14:16:00 -
[189]
Edited by: Saietor Blackgreen on 02/04/2008 14:21:49
Originally by: Jeetah I heard this so many times and I just can't understand it. So with 5% RoF bonus I have to reload more frequently, and yet I'm gaining more dps, than with 5% damage bonus? Why?
Lets assume you deal 100 damage every shot. Lets assume you shoot every 10 seconds. Your DPS is 100/10 = 10 dmg/sec.
If you gain 25% increase in damage mod, you deal 125 damage every 10 seconds, your DPS is 125/10 = 12.5 dmg/sec, which is 25% increase.
If you gain 25% decrease in ROF, you deal 100 damage every 7.5 seconds, your DPS is 100/7.5 = 13.33, which is 13.3% increase.
***
The confusion comes from the fact, that in EVE attribute "rate of fire" is actually a time between to shots (in seconds), not the real "rate" (in shots/sec).
***
Edit: Yes, these calculations dont take reloading into account. Increase from ROF bonus will be less than 33% in prolonged endagement, because you'll reload more often. But, IIRC, even with small clip of artilleries, ROF bonus gives more DPS than DMG bonus for prolonged engagement, let alone the short one.
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Victor Treyburn
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Posted - 2008.04.02 14:44:00 -
[190]
This sucks......to think i spent all that time training Ogre IIs to make my Typhoon shine, Arty II for my Pest, and all i really needed was an Apoc.
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Jeetah
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Posted - 2008.04.02 14:52:00 -
[191]
Originally by: Victor Treyburn This sucks......to think i spent all that time training Ogre IIs to make my Typhoon shine, Arty II for my Pest, and all i really needed was an Apoc.
You're lucky, I even spent 57.6m ISK on the marauders skill, I'm still wondering why. But look at the bright side, ogre II's will still be useful in your nidhoggur... or archon, rather.
Oh and thanks for the clarification Blackgreen. |
Goumindong
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Posted - 2008.04.02 14:52:00 -
[192]
Originally by: Victor Treyburn This sucks......to think i spent all that time training Ogre IIs to make my Typhoon shine, Arty II for my Pest, and all i really needed was an Apoc.
Or a maelstrom.
Also, the apoc just recently changed and it looks a lot better on paper than it really is in large combats due to cap. http://eve-files.com/dl/154147 Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Vote Goumindong for CSM[/url] |
chrisss0r
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Posted - 2008.04.02 15:11:00 -
[193]
Originally by: Saietor Blackgreen Edited by: Saietor Blackgreen on 02/04/2008 14:21:49
Originally by: Jeetah I heard this so many times and I just can't understand it. So with 5% RoF bonus I have to reload more frequently, and yet I'm gaining more dps, than with 5% damage bonus? Why?
If you gain 25% increase in damage mod, you deal 125 damage every 10 seconds, your DPS is 125/10 = 12.5 dmg/sec, which is 25% increase.
If you gain 25% decrease in ROF, you deal 100 damage every 7.5 seconds, your DPS is 100/7.5 = 13.33, which is 13.3% increase.
33,3%
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Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.04.02 15:49:00 -
[194]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
On theory yes, But not on real terms. Most sniper fights are very lagged and takes lot of time to get all pilots targeted and shooting a single target. recently been in fleet fight with more than 100 Snipers at our side. And most targets were down only by the second volley of arties ( that is several volleys of other guns), some would survive to the 4th!. Simply because lots of time half people didn't loaded that guy in overview other half took more than 15 seconds to find it on overview, half was in a huge lag spike of 4 minutes to deal any command. Usually you will be hit by about 1/4 of enemy fleet when you are called primary before you die or warp out.
Fleet fights are very different from theory, lag and grid loading make sure of it.
So essentially you're saying that the Minmatar pilots were consistently able to actually target, and that is what made the difference.
Got it.
-Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance. |
Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.04.02 15:50:00 -
[195]
Originally by: Goumindong Or a maelstrom.
Also, the apoc just recently changed and it looks a lot better on paper than it really is in large combats due to cap.
Goum, even you have to admit that cap isn't that big of a deal on the Apoc.
Hell, I'm pretty sure I can dig up quotes of you saying that cap is "fine" on the Apoc.
-Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance. |
Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.02 16:26:00 -
[196]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Goumindong Or a maelstrom.
Also, the apoc just recently changed and it looks a lot better on paper than it really is in large combats due to cap.
Goum, even you have to admit that cap isn't that big of a deal on the Apoc.
Hell, I'm pretty sure I can dig up quotes of you saying that cap is "fine" on the Apoc.
-Liang
Its fine as in "its an acceptable drawback" not, "its fine as in who the **** cares how long i have to shoot my lasers, i can fire them forever!". In the specific case of the quotes you would likely be digging up, it would be regarding its fire time compared to a megathron, and they are about the same.
The same as EM damage is fine as in "it makes sense that long range weapons typically do less DPS against tanked setups than short range weapons due to damage type." and not in the sense that "EM damage is super-awesome and i want to deal EM damage all the time"
Once you are halfway into a battle and hear "burn out of the bubble and warp" you will know just how great it would be to not be firing your cap at your enemies. Or if you have to burn out of a bubble and warp into an engagement its the same thing.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2008.04.02 16:43:00 -
[197]
Originally by: Goumindong
Its fine as in "its an acceptable drawback" not, "its fine as in who the **** cares how long i have to shoot my lasers, i can fire them forever!". In the specific case of the quotes you would likely be digging up, it would be regarding its fire time compared to a megathron, and they are about the same.
The same as EM damage is fine as in "it makes sense that long range weapons typically do less DPS against tanked setups than short range weapons due to damage type." and not in the sense that "EM damage is super-awesome and i want to deal EM damage all the time"
Once you are halfway into a battle and hear "burn out of the bubble and warp" you will know just how great it would be to not be firing your cap at your enemies. Or if you have to burn out of a bubble and warp into an engagement its the same thing.
And once you have to spend 20 minutes reloading your 10 shot clip, you'll see how great it is to not be firing bullets at your enemy.
I also like that there's only like 3 people in this thread that say large arties are "fine", and none of them have it trained.
-Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance. |
Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.02 17:49:00 -
[198]
If you're spending 20 minutes reloading your 10 shot clip no one is shooting anything.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Ath Amon
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Posted - 2008.04.02 18:48:00 -
[199]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Goumindong Or a maelstrom.
Also, the apoc just recently changed and it looks a lot better on paper than it really is in large combats due to cap.
Goum, even you have to admit that cap isn't that big of a deal on the Apoc.
Hell, I'm pretty sure I can dig up quotes of you saying that cap is "fine" on the Apoc.
-Liang
Its fine as in "its an acceptable drawback" not, "its fine as in who the **** cares how long i have to shoot my lasers, i can fire them forever!". In the specific case of the quotes you would likely be digging up, it would be regarding its fire time compared to a megathron, and they are about the same.
The same as EM damage is fine as in "it makes sense that long range weapons typically do less DPS against tanked setups than short range weapons due to damage type." and not in the sense that "EM damage is super-awesome and i want to deal EM damage all the time"
Once you are halfway into a battle and hear "burn out of the bubble and warp" you will know just how great it would be to not be firing your cap at your enemies. Or if you have to burn out of a bubble and warp into an engagement its the same thing.
if you are cap stable thats no difference, you pulse warp to get out and warp is not that 1 pulse and you are out of cap you have 35-40% cap to use and as amarr ships have generally bigger cap...
Originally by: Diana Merris
Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.02 19:19:00 -
[200]
yes, but you aren't cap stable and 30-45% of your cap is not nearly comparable to 90% of your cap.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
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Etho Demerzel
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Posted - 2008.04.02 19:27:00 -
[201]
Originally by: Goumindong yes, but you aren't cap stable and 30-45% of your cap is not nearly comparable to 90% of your cap.
It is very very easy to reach a cap stable fitting with tachyons and Aurora in the Apocalypse. You are obviously doing something wrong there.
And to burn out of a bubble 30-45% cap is more than enough. It is not as if you are going to make it in 5 MWD pulses if you can't run in 3...
=====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Ath Amon
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Posted - 2008.04.02 19:28:00 -
[202]
that is fitting choice, you can go capstable and still keep pretty good dmg
Originally by: Diana Merris
Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
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Venus Felix
Native Freshfood
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Posted - 2008.04.02 19:55:00 -
[203]
I read some of the posts in this thread (7 pages is too much to read at once) and I don't really get why people think that Large Artillery is that awful. Playing around in EFT I get the impression that a Tempest Artillery is at least on even terms with a Rail Rokh for sniper fleets. This statement is based on the following obeservations:
- DPS is similar (acutally higher on Tempest) even when including reload time.
- Base tracking is slightly better on Rails but since a sniper Tempest is likely to use Tracking Enhancers while the sniper Rokh gets by on its ship bonus the Tempest is likely to have better tracking.
- Tempest has about twice the alpha the Rokh has.
- Tempest has to use its falloff above ~150km, this will lower its effective DPS significantly but battles at more than 160km are not that common in my experience.
- Tempest needs a T2 Reactor Control to fit all guns and MWD while the Rokh only needs a T1 one.
- If assuming no rigs you have to spend about as many slots on the Rokh to get it cap stable as you need to spend on the Tempest for range.
All in all I'd say that the major difference is that the Rokh is likely to have more midslots to spare while the Tempest has two free highslots and slightly more flexibility when it comes to having free midslots OR lowslots.
Considering that the Tempest with its larger dronebay, armortank capability, low cap use and free highslots make for a much more versatile ship, especially in close range combat, I'd say it's only fair that the Rokh is a slightly better sniper.
The idea that Arties have terribly bad tracking is very strange to me since they have less than 7% worse tracking than Rails when comparing T2 1400mm's to T2 425mm's. Seems more like racial flavor to me.
Any constructive criticism to my analysis is much welcome.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.02 20:00:00 -
[204]
Edited by: Goumindong on 02/04/2008 20:02:33 Edited by: Goumindong on 02/04/2008 20:00:49
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Originally by: Goumindong yes, but you aren't cap stable and 30-45% of your cap is not nearly comparable to 90% of your cap.
It is very very easy to reach a cap stable fitting with tachyons and Aurora in the Apocalypse. You are obviously doing something wrong there.
And to burn out of a bubble 30-45% cap is more than enough. It is not as if you are going to make it in 5 MWD pulses if you can't run in 3...
Please post a tachyon setup that gets 350 DPS, has 60k EHP, hits to 170km, has an mwd, and is cap stable.
Or a megabeam setup that also works.
ed: or we will go with the maelstrom stats, 380 DPS, 154+44km[so say, 160km opt], that is cap stable.
ed: And ya, it really is going to matter how much cap you have, because if you don't get out of the bubble you die. If it takes more cycles, its not a big deal, since the enemy wont be getting points/webs on everyone.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Richard Third
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.04.02 20:07:00 -
[205]
Edited by: Richard Third on 02/04/2008 20:11:43 If i was in a fleet, i'd want an amarr ship, and why wouldn't I? Most likely I wouldn't cap out before a lot of the enemy was dead, and most likely the ability to do explosive/ whatever damage type wouldn't come in real handy.
The amarr ships are slow, but don't tell me the other ships are agile enough to circle a whole fleet!
Now can you give me a reason to take these advantages away from the Amarr battleships? What is convincing about the Minmatar that they deserve what the Gallente and Caldari don't have?
Liang showed that EHP (effective hitpints) is as important as DPS. It has equal importance, actually they are related in terms of equal battle effectiveness. Is this the problem? Minnies need more DPS because they have less EHP? -- You can't do that with a Planet. |
Pontifex Tellanius
North Star Networks Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.04.02 20:15:00 -
[206]
Originally by: Goumindong
Please post a tachyon setup that gets 350 DPS, has 60k EHP, hits to 170km, has an mwd, and is cap stable.
I couldn't quite manage that but I got pretty close: [Apocalypse 2, Goumindongs Apoc] Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Tracking Enhancer II Reactor Control Unit II Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Damage Control II
Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets F-b10 Nominal Capacitor Regenerator Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L
Ancillary Current Router I Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I
357 DPS, has 59.8k EHP, 188km optimal, has an mwd, and is cap stable. (According to EFT, assuming all lvl5 skills). If you make do with 50k EHP or 163km optimal you can also get over 400 DPS.
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2008.04.02 20:19:00 -
[207]
Edited by: Ath Amon on 02/04/2008 20:19:34 go 163 optimal and 400dps
anyway mael have 154 optimal... (154opt+x faloff != 160 optimal :P) 9km more optimal and more dps
Originally by: Diana Merris
Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
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Goumindong
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Posted - 2008.04.02 20:35:00 -
[208]
You've got 50m worth of rigs on that ship. bwa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
If we are rigging the thing you need to hit 65k EHP with only 12m isk worth of rigs[so 1/3 of the rigs you used].
Or, you need to hit 73k EHP[1600 rt, acr + 2 trimarks on a maelstrom] http://eve-files.com/dl/154147 Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Vote Goumindong for CSM[/url] |
Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2008.04.02 20:37:00 -
[209]
Originally by: Goumindong You've got 50m worth of rigs on that ship. bwa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
If we are rigging the thing you need to hit 65k EHP with only 12m isk worth of rigs[so 1/3 of the rigs you used].
Or, you need to hit 73k EHP[1600 rt, acr + 2 trimarks on a maelstrom]
Well, strictly speaking, if you rig all of the fleet BS, you'll have a higher EHP / DPS ratio, and win "more" - and end up costing less (overall).
I know that doesn't help the individuals who are buying the ships, but...
-Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance. |
Pontifex Tellanius
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Posted - 2008.04.02 20:43:00 -
[210]
Originally by: Goumindong You've got 50m worth of rigs on that ship. bwa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
If we are rigging the thing you need to hit 65k EHP with only 12m isk worth of rigs[so 1/3 of the rigs you used].
Or, you need to hit 73k EHP[1600 rt, acr + 2 trimarks on a maelstrom]
Oh, I didn't notice the 'no rigs'-rule in your post. It is probably not possible but give me a few minutes and I'll give it a try.
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