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wamingo
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Posted - 2008.04.02 17:14:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Rells It needs no changes.
Need is subjective. Yes eve is complex. Time and time again people use this excuse in defense of eve. And yes you can argue that sheer complexity CAN produce a gameplay based on skill... But the fact remains that eve combat is almost entirely a matter of numbers and pre-battle configurations and tactics. In eve the battle truely is won and lost before it begins.
And several times has CCP themselves said that combat in eve is largely a game of rock/paper/scissors and announced their wishes to remedy this - yet their attempts have been, of course, rather futile.
Also, it's not like the game would be any less complex if all weapons started using cap...
-- I won't not promise to avoid refraining from harming you! .... What? |
Rells
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Posted - 2008.04.02 17:14:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Tim Dust I'm sure that there is skill involved, but combat would be much more interesting if Eve ships had multiple shield facings, weapons arcs, subsystems that could be damaged and/or targeted, armor that only protected the side of the ship that it was mounted on, etc.
At that point you are getting into the limitations of the capabilities of modern computers to process and transmit data. Current technical limitations allow only a finite level of complexity. When we all have T1s and the computers have 100 times more processing power, this can be done.
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Winterblink
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Posted - 2008.04.02 17:24:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Rells At that point you are getting into the limitations of the capabilities of modern computers to process and transmit data. Current technical limitations allow only a finite level of complexity. When we all have T1s and the computers have 100 times more processing power, this can be done.
Hasn't EVE's current and historical lag woes already indicative that we've reached that point? :)
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Tim Dust
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Posted - 2008.04.02 17:26:00 -
[64]
Most of the features I just mentioned have been used in C64 games. Why would you need 100x the processing power to do them now?
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Rells
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Posted - 2008.04.02 17:30:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Rells on 02/04/2008 17:30:17
Originally by: Winterblink
Originally by: Rells At that point you are getting into the limitations of the capabilities of modern computers to process and transmit data. Current technical limitations allow only a finite level of complexity. When we all have T1s and the computers have 100 times more processing power, this can be done.
Hasn't EVE's current and historical lag woes already indicative that we've reached that point? :)
Given that there is no other game on the market for either consoles or MMOGs or RTS where 200 players can compete simultaneously in battle, I think that Eve is doing pretty good. Indeed it is the leader in putting Massive into MMOG. One universe, 40k+ players concurrently, and over 200 in system competing without lag. Very impressive. Given enough pressure though, even Eve's technology will fold.
Try putting 200 players in an EQ or WoW zone concurrently.
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Tim Dust
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Posted - 2008.04.02 17:33:00 -
[66]
Fair point.
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Winterblink
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Posted - 2008.04.02 18:12:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Rells Given that there is no other game on the market for either consoles or MMOGs or RTS where 200 players can compete simultaneously in battle, I think that Eve is doing pretty good. Indeed it is the leader in putting Massive into MMOG. One universe, 40k+ players concurrently, and over 200 in system competing without lag. Very impressive. Given enough pressure though, even Eve's technology will fold.
Try putting 200 players in an EQ or WoW zone concurrently.
Well, playing devil's advocate, I've seen some systems in EVE lag out to complete uselessness with far less than 200 in them. *shrug*
Don't get me wrong, I'm with you in that it's entirely impressive what they've done. It's far from perfect, yet still very impressive.
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Quelque Chose
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Posted - 2008.04.02 18:17:00 -
[68]
Originally by: RuleoftheBone So I would be the only one with HOTAS/Stick/Rudder pedals then?
No. You wouldn't.
I'm curious as to whether Jumpgate: Evolution will be any good.
But anyway, yeah, this game = RTS skills with way less macro and a middling micro.
BTW Bone, did you know this game supports TrackIR? I have no idea why, but it does. =OP ______________________________
"Eve Online is a massively multiplayer game about trolling in outer space." |
Dahak2150
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Posted - 2008.04.02 18:19:00 -
[69]
I'd say skill is possibly the wrong term. It's more a combination of experience and not being an utter moron.
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
Steve Hawkings
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Posted - 2008.04.02 18:19:00 -
[70]
Shows how much you know if you think combat is just press f1-f8.
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RuleoftheBone
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Posted - 2008.04.02 18:22:00 -
[71]
Implement "real" zero-g physics.
FFS ships in EvE bank when turning .
The game remains fun as it is.....although giving back the FPS stolen during the last patch would be nice .
"Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
Tim Dust
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Posted - 2008.04.02 18:56:00 -
[72]
Real zero-g physics would be a major change to the game. Ships would no longer have any maximum velocity (below the speed of light), but instead would have a maximum acceleration. In a massive battle, ships could be moving at widely varying speeds. It would definitely make combat more complicated, although a lot of people would say it's impractical.
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Sargeant HAmmer
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Posted - 2008.04.02 19:03:00 -
[73]
the way i see it is that the only skill is the ones you train, the rest of it is down to luck and tactics and being in the right place with the right equipment.
Theres no skill in popping a ship with 1 shot, nor is there skill in a micromanagement battle of cap, its simply hitting the right button. skill is things like accuracy (FPS games), speed of hitting the buttons (most old arcade games) etc etc
anyway, im off out.
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Corwain
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Posted - 2008.04.02 19:15:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Sargeant HAmmer Theres no skill in popping a ship with 1 shot, nor is there skill in a micromanagement battle of cap, its simply hitting the right button.
And there's no skill in playing the guitar or piano, it's just hitting the right button at the right time.
You're a moron if you think accuracy and speed are the only tests of skill. I mean after all even consultants are considered skilled workers. -- Distortion| Distortion 2 Preview |
Marcus TheMartin
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Posted - 2008.04.02 19:17:00 -
[75]
More skill than flying a raven! Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
Everyone Dies
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Posted - 2008.04.02 19:20:00 -
[76]
Originally by: RuleoftheBone Implement "real" zero-g physics.
FFS ships in EvE bank when turning .
The game remains fun as it is.....although giving back the FPS stolen during the last patch would be nice .
No it would ruin eve.
Counterstrike kiddies ( even the so called world championship CS players) and the like have no skill compared to EVE players. This game actually makes u think unlike mindless bunnyhopping, nade spamming, and spawn camping.
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Siadyu
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Posted - 2008.04.02 19:23:00 -
[77]
Quote: And there's no skill in playing the guitar or piano, it's just hitting the right button at the right time.
Hrm...I would say that 95% of learning to play the guitar of piano is simply learning to hit the right button at the right time. The difference is that developing the motor skills necessary to do this is quite a challenge.
The other 5% (interpretation and improvisation) is just what separates the best musicians from the merely great ones.
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Le Skunk
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Posted - 2008.04.02 19:25:00 -
[78]
Originally by: wamingo But the fact remains that eve combat is almost entirely a matter of numbers and pre-battle configurations and tactics. In eve the battle truely is won and lost before it begins.
I would have to agree.
"Uber PVPers" like to think they are highly skilled at this game.
In reality (in general)-
If you put a Veteran player up against a nooob player in the same ship with the same fittings. The veteran will win because he has 25% more armor 25% more shiled 25%more cap 25% hardner armor 25% more damage 25% faster rate of fire etcetc.
If you put two equal skilled players in the same ships but one is all officer fit. Then the officer fit player will win because he has 30% extra tanks 20% extra ROF, etcetcetc.
There is some scope for individual skill in the game, maintaint correct ranges, skill in overload timing etc, but 90% of the result of the 1v1 is skillpoints and what sciscor/paper/stone fittings you have.
When you get gangs fighting however, then a considerably degree of variables are intorudced into the mix, and the FC could be said to be 'skillfull'. The player drones he is commanding however "Primary him, click click click Secondary him clikc click clik" are generally just following commands - so again could not be classed as skillfull.
Sorry if it upsets the Vets, but its true.
SKUNK
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Zephyr Rengate
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Posted - 2008.04.02 19:32:00 -
[79]
Well this happened a day ago. A few hostile tri jump into our system that we operate from. A few my corpies in gang go out to meet them. Whilst traveling to them mid-warp we realise they have far more then expspected plus a bubble on the gate. We land 20 off the gate losing a one of our pilots. I get tackeled by a crow and an ishtar i'm warp scrambled.
A few months ago when I first got into pvp I would have totaly lost it. But now being more experienced I managed to get alive safe in my deimos. By being aware of the situation quickly weighing up what I could do. I was able to get out of the range of both my tacklers.
No amount of SP really mattered here. Just the ability to assess the best course of action (skill)
Also it may seem that you do not need skill to do well in eve PvP. But maybe thats because you are flying with good FCs and gangmates that make up for your lack off skill ( if that is the case).
EvE requires a lot of skills.
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Reem Fairchild
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Posted - 2008.04.02 19:47:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Le Skunk If you put a Veteran player up against a nooob player in the same ship with the same fittings. The veteran will win because he has 25% more armor 25% more shiled 25%more cap 25% hardner armor 25% more damage 25% faster rate of fire etcetc.
Do that but with the exact same character skills as well, and the older player (provided he's not an idiot) will still win. Although, it's more so with some ships than others, granted. Have the players fit the ships themselves (but with the same level of gear allowed) and the new player doesn't stand a chance in hell with any ship. All those things about Eve combat and how it works that you think of as simple and take for granted, the brand new players are mostly unaware of.
Besides, you're thinking strictly of 1 v 1 fights, which is a very tiny portion of pvp combat in Eve, and when it does happen it is rarely in that kind of duel type engagement where both parties are ready for it and aware of what's happening.
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Le Skunk
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Posted - 2008.04.02 19:52:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Le Skunk on 02/04/2008 19:54:31
Originally by: Reem Fairchild
Originally by: Le Skunk If you put a Veteran player up against a nooob player in the same ship with the same fittings. The veteran will win because he has 25% more armor 25% more shiled 25%more cap 25% hardner armor 25% more damage 25% faster rate of fire etcetc.
Do that but with the exact same character skills as well, and the older player (provided he's not an idiot) will still win. Although, it's more so with some ships than others, granted. Have the players fit the ships themselves (but with the same level of gear allowed) and the new player doesn't stand a chance in hell with any ship. All those things about Eve combat and how it works that you think of as simple and take for granted, the brand new players are mostly unaware of.
Besides, you're thinking strictly of 1 v 1 fights, which is a very tiny portion of pvp combat in Eve, and when it does happen it is rarely in that kind of duel type engagement where both parties are ready for it and aware of what's happening.
Ok then, we will consider a Much more likley scenario. A 10 man gank gang vs 1 BS in a bubble in 0.0.
The lone BS dies. The 10 gang needed precicsly zero 'pvp' skill to do this.
Again, there is very little 'skill' needed to pvp in this game.
Or Fleet fights, which involve shooting who the FC tells you to.. again no skill on the part of the individual pilot. It does upset the 'uber pvpers' but im afraid its the truth.
SKUNK
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Corstaad
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Posted - 2008.04.02 19:53:00 -
[82]
The other day I was in a really good fight with Hurricane in my Stabber. Almost 10 mins went by as I tried to stay out of web range and break his tank. I was winging almost out of disruptor so I made a quik turn to the ship and went to try and start another orbit. I sneezed as I was about to click in a general direction so got me snagged in web range. I died rather quikly so yah there alittle twitch to eve if anything is comes alot when your in some of the faster ships. Most of the game is how you take in instant info and how quikly you react to it IE interface what not. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
Xaen
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Posted - 2008.04.02 19:55:00 -
[83]
My domi setup has never lost a 1v1 against anything. In fact I solo'd two (admittedly poorly setup) battleships.
And it's not very impressive looking in EFT. On paper, my vagabond does more DPS.
Conversely, I've lost that same domi against other players that knew what they were doing. I've lost crows like they were empty coffee cups. And Against all sorts of player skill levels.
Mostly, EVE is a strategy game. But most of the strategy goes out the ******* window once the bullets start flying. Even a nano ship or a vagabond is pretty useless if you don't know how to use it wisely. I've seen a video of one lost to a battle badger gang.
So obviously player skill has some affect. The biggest factor is superior numbers. For example, five T1 - maybe even three or four - frigates on week old characters could make mincemeat of a lone battleship with no losses if done right. The second is superior planning, preparation, and organization (this would be player skill). Skill points come in a distant third.
Lastly, the amount of skillpoints that can affect any given ship are finite. The amount you can do with a good imagination is virtually infinite. - Support fixing the UI|Suggest Jita fixes|Compact logs |
Xaen
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Posted - 2008.04.02 20:04:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Rells
Originally by: Tim Dust I'm sure that there is skill involved, but combat would be much more interesting if Eve ships had multiple shield facings, weapons arcs, subsystems that could be damaged and/or targeted, armor that only protected the side of the ship that it was mounted on, etc.
At that point you are getting into the limitations of the capabilities of modern computers to process and transmit data. Current technical limitations allow only a finite level of complexity. When we all have T1s and the computers have 100 times more processing power, this can be done.
You don't realize that a T1 line is 1.544Mbit, do you?
As for the location based damage, FPS games have been doing this since....oh...1997? Granted, on a smaller scale, but if Moore's law is even 80% accurate, we now have 25.6 times the processing power we did in the days of Quake II.
The real problem is network bandwidth. - Support fixing the UI|Suggest Jita fixes|Compact logs |
Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2008.04.02 20:06:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Quelque Chose BTW Bone, did you know this game supports TrackIR? I have no idea why, but it does. =OP
Ages ago (like 2003-2004) I met a guy in EVE who was paralyzed from the neck down. His father was apparently a savvy programmer and rigged up their system so his son could play EVE (both father and son played together). In order to play EVE the father rigged a head tracking systems and some other things. IIRC since this constituted manipulating the EVE executable he discussed this with CCP and one way or another it all got sorted.
Again this was ages ago and my memory of it is vague but I wouldn't be surprised if this was where it came from.
-------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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Reem Fairchild
Shadow Forces Inc.
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Posted - 2008.04.02 20:24:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Le Skunk
Ok then, we will consider a Much more likley scenario. A 10 man gank gang vs 1 BS in a bubble in 0.0.
The lone BS dies. The 10 gang needed precicsly zero 'pvp' skill to do this.
Well, that battleship pilot is either fitted for travel and escape (with any combination of, but not limited to, the following: mwd, ecm, ecm bursts, neutralizers, light drones, wcs, etc. ... ) in which case he will get away with some skill and luck, or he is an idiot (moving alone and unscouted in 0.0 in a battleship, and not even being fitted for it counts as being a major idiot), or it took skill to actually catch him in the first place. And if this in a hostile alliance's area, you will have 30+ ships coming after you soon thereafter wchich means skill needed in dodging them.
Quote: Or Fleet fights, which involve shooting who the FC tells you to.. again no skill on the part of the individual pilot. It does upset the 'uber pvpers' but im afraid its the truth.
SKUNK
Actually fleet fights, in my experience are mostly shooting (or, more commonly for me, jamming) whatever targets actually load so you can see them and then actually manage to target after 10 minutes or so of trying.
Anyway, actually it's only the sniping battleships in a fleet that fire on primary . The support all do their own thing depending on their role. That's why I like being support when I am in large fleets.
And the job of the FC is just insane, and they tend to get burned out. I couldn't do it.
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2008.04.02 20:34:00 -
[87]
Edited by: Le Skunk on 02/04/2008 20:35:20
Originally by: Reem Fairchild
Originally by: Le Skunk
Ok then, we will consider a Much more likley scenario. A 10 man gank gang vs 1 BS in a bubble in 0.0.
The lone BS dies. The 10 gang needed precicsly zero 'pvp' skill to do this.
Well, that battleship pilot is either fitted for travel and escape (with any combination of, but not limited to, the following: mwd, ecm, ecm bursts, neutralizers, light drones, wcs, etc. ... ) in which case he will get away with some skill and luck, or he is an idiot (moving alone and unscouted in 0.0 in a battleship, and not even being fitted for it counts as being a major idiot), or it took skill to actually catch him in the first place.
So you agree then its not down to him having any skill. But the fittings he chose to come out with.
Stuck in a bubble,insta webbed by a huggin, perma ecmd by a falcon. Toasted in short order by the remaining 7 pilots.
There is no skill in cathcing him. There is no skill in trying to mwd back to the gate or spamming an ecm burst (which incidentaly will be out of range to jam most people)
The only thing that affects this pilot in this circumstance is:
1) the amount of isk he spends of his fittings (a faction mwd might coast him back into jump range for example, or a faction repper would enable him to tank better as he flees.)
2) the amount of skillpoints he has passivley trained whilst doing the dishes/gogin on holiday (a greater speed burst and faster turning ark and better tank etc)
There is NO skill on the part of the gankee or the gankers.
SKUNK
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Reem Fairchild
Shadow Forces Inc.
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Posted - 2008.04.02 20:39:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Le Skunk
Originally by: Reem Fairchild
Originally by: Le Skunk
Ok then, we will consider a Much more likley scenario. A 10 man gank gang vs 1 BS in a bubble in 0.0.
The lone BS dies. The 10 gang needed precicsly zero 'pvp' skill to do this.
Well, that battleship pilot is either fitted for travel and escape (with any combination of, but not limited to, the following: mwd, ecm, ecm bursts, neutralizers, light drones, wcs, etc. ... ) in which case he will get away with some skill and luck, or he is an idiot (moving alone and unscouted in 0.0 in a battleship, and not even being fitted for it counts as being a major idiot), or it took skill to actually catch him in the first place.
So you agree then its not down to him having any skill. But the fittings he chose to come out with.
Stuck in a bubble,insta webbed by a huggin, perma ecmd by a falcon. Toasted in short order by the remaining 7 pilots.
There is no skill in cathcing him. There is no skill in trying to mwd back to the gate or spamming an ecm burst (which incidentaly will be out of range to jam most people)
The only thing that affects this pilot is:
1) the amount of isk he spends of his fittings (a faction mwd might coast him back into jump range for example, or a faction repper would enable him to tank better as he flees.) 2) the amount of skillpoints he has passivley trained whilst doing the dishes/gogin on holiday (a greater speed burst and faster turning ark and better tank etc)
There is NO skill on the part of the gankee or the gankers.
SKUNK
Knowing what fittings to use and how to then use them in different situations = skill
Avoiding situations where 10 pilots are shooting you and you have no friends nearby or means of escape in the first place = skill
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Nomakai Delateriel
Viziam
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Posted - 2008.04.02 20:40:00 -
[89]
There is little skill to ganking. But even you must have noticed that 90% of the time it's the newbies that get ganked because they didn't have the experience to recognize the signs of an ambush or the skill to avoid it once they detected it. ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary. |
WhiteSavage
Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.04.02 21:55:00 -
[90]
Someone needs to move to 0.0 and fight the difference between skilled players and high sp n00bs :) ___________________________________________
..My doctor says that I have a malformed public-duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fiber, and that I am therefore excused from saving Universes |
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