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AFK cloakers - Probe-able solution?

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HEY LISTEN i swear this is true	Posted - 2008.04.08 18:31:00 - [121] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: HEY LISTEN If, what, how, lol get out of your armchair and go kill stuff and get some xp in pvp. What part of every gank could be a trap did you not understand?. And why would a large blob that outnumbered the guys need cloaks?. If the cloakers stay cloaked they are no threat but if they uncloak to attack they get targeting penalties that allow a aligned ship to warp out, and also stand a very good chance of getting ganked themselves if its a trap or the guy is guarded. O.K. so in order to kill you, the enemy needs to have enough forces deployed so that they can set traps 23/7 and be able to get enough forces to the target before you kill it without tipping you off or letting you escape? Do you even play this game? Either they will see you coming and leave, kill your bait before you arrive, or you have to use cloaking ships and maintain a vigil in order to win. Its a ridiculous onus. If the attackers are ready and willing to hit ships in the system 24/7 why should the defenders be able to ignore them and continue to mine?. So yes when hostiles are in system they should have guards if they wanna carebear, welcome to 0.0 btw its not supposed to be safe to solo mine or rat. Yes i play the game and have done since 2003 but i do not play it or wish to play it in easy mode like you do it seems. 1. If they leave before i arrive then i win cos im there to mine or rat so im still making money. 2. If they kill my bait/carebear its my fault for planning the trap or guarding badly 3. Most corps/alliances use cloakers but for summat like this a close pos is enough for guarding the carebear or even sitting on grid uncloaked as deterrent will work.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.08 18:39:00 - [122] Originally by: HEY LISTEN If the attackers are ready and willing to hit ships in the system 24/7 why should the defenders be able to ignore them and continue to mine?. So yes when hostiles are in system they should have guards if they wanna carebear, welcome to 0.0 btw its not supposed to be safe to solo mine or rat. Yes i play the game and have done since 2003 but i do not play it or wish to play it in easy mode like you do it seems. 1. If they leave before i arrive then i win cos im there to mine or rat so im still making money. 2. If they kill my bait/carebear its my fault for planning the trap or guarding badly 3. Most corps/alliances use cloakers but for summat like this a close pos is enough for guarding the carebear or even sitting on grid uncloaked as deterrent will work. Because the attackers don't have to be ready and willing to attack 23/7. They only need to be ready and willing to attack when they want and where they want. They could be making dinner for all it mattered. But because they could be ready to attack and there is no indication of change, the defenders must act like they are. So the defenders have to defend 23/7 and the attackers have to do nothing. 1. No, if you leave before they arrive you tie, because they still have to defend and have caused you no damage 2. Or the cloakers simply have more force than you 3. No its not. Because you have cost involved in defending these ops. Not only is it not fun, but since you could be mining you are losing money. It only makes sense if those folks are AFK. But if they are AFK they are not doing their job. With miners its that even with forces on grid, a cloaking gang will be able to destroy a hulk before you can respond. Quote: Yes i play the game and have done since 2003 but i do not play it or wish to play it in easy mode like you do it seems. Yea, you don't want to play in easy mode, which is why you argue for all ultra low-risk endeavors to be maintained or enhanced! For some reason i don't believe you. Vote Goumindong for CSM
HEY LISTEN i swear this is true	Posted - 2008.04.08 18:59:00 - [123] Edited by: HEY LISTEN on 08/04/2008 19:08:02 Originally by: Goumindong Because the attackers don't have to be ready and willing to attack 23/7. They only need to be ready and willing to attack when they want and where they want. They could be making dinner for all it mattered. But because they could be ready to attack and there is no indication of change, the defenders must act like they are So the defenders have to defend 23/7 and the attackers have to do nothing. Welcome to being on the offensive in war, you get to choose when and where you fight its great ain't it. Originally by: Goumindong 1. No, if you leave before they arrive you tie, because they still have to defend and have caused you no damage . I said if they leave before my forces/trap arrive's are you blind?. So the ability to continue to make isk is a win. Originally by: Goumindong 2. Or the cloakers simply have more force than you. Only a moron rats/mines with a larger hostile force camped in local, cloaked or not. Originally by: Goumindong 3. No its not. Because you have cost involved in defending these ops. Not only is it not fun, but since you could be mining you are losing money. It only makes sense if those folks are AFK. But if they are AFK they are not doing their job. So you make less cos of paying the security needed my heart bleeds for the rich carebears. Originally by: Goumindong With miners its that even with forces on grid, a cloaking gang will be able to destroy a hulk before you can respond. Logistics, ewar, dps guarding your miners ftw (hey look a balanced and mixed fleet wins again). The things im defending are only low risk if your facing total morons so skill up, team up and suck it up.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:23:00 - [124] Edited by: Goumindong on 08/04/2008 19:23:49 Originally by: HEY LISTEN Welcome to being on the offensive in war, you get to choose when and where you fight its great ain't it so 1 hour reinforcement timers on ships then? Quote: I said if they leave before my forces/trap arrive's are you blind?. So the ability to continue to make isk is a win. No, its a tie, but more of a loss for the defenders. Because you must continue to field the trap. This costs you money.[opportunity cost of playing the game and not producing] The cloaker can go afk this does not cost him money[is not playing the game]. Only his actual activity time costs him money. So then, in order to cause him damage you need to destroy his ship, and in order to increase your production you need to get to a state where you do not have to waste forces defending. Quote: Only a moron rats/mines with a larger hostile force camped in local, cloaked or not Yes, which is why the cloaking mechanics are messed up because you cannot prevent that when they are cloaked and because you cannot prevent that when they are cloaked its impossible to produce 0.0 if someone dumps a decent sized cloaking force in your systems and then rides bikes And it would get even worse if local functionality were removed or reduced. Quote: So you make less cos of paying the security neededRolling Eyes my heart bleeds for the rich carebears So you want a system where profits are explicitly lower than empire and risks are explicitly higher? That seems kinda dumb. Quote: Logistics, ewar, dpsShocked guarding your miners ftw (hey look a balanced and mixed fleet wins again). The things im defending are only low risk if your facing total morons so skill up, team up and suck it up.ugh so 30% of your mining fleet is going to be guardians sitting at the keyboard 100% of the time? And you still need DPS and miners?! Wow, thats really efficient! Have you ever been on a mining op? Do you understand how they work? Do you realize you are asking for for a 23 to 1 or more effort ratio for them to defend against anyone with a cloak? Vote Goumindong for CSM
HEY LISTEN i swear this is true	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:40:00 - [125] 1 hour reinforcment timers?. lol just lol. The guards can be paid for there time you make less but you all make summat the cloaker does not= you win. If the cloaker is afk you are making money and he is not = you win. You will still make more than him as he has no way of making isk while you do = win Your alliance should have enough ppl to defend you carebears in carebear ops from cloakers, btw ive never seen a cloaker blob camping a system so please stop with the arm chair what ifs its silly. Profits are never less in 0.0 than in empire stop drama queening but yes the risks should be a lot higher hence the guards needed. Concord defend carebears in empire and the carebears make less profit than even a guarded miner can make in 0.0, i suggest you join an alliance that can defend you and is willing to.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:12:00 - [126] Edited by: Goumindong on 08/04/2008 20:13:58 Originally by: HEY LISTEN Edited by: HEY LISTEN on 08/04/2008 19:51:24 1 hour reinforcment timers?. lol just lol. Well, you're the one who suggested it. [Edit: i suppose i should qualify this. This is a game, and games require that players be online. This is why we schedule pos fights, because otherwise you could go to bed and lose a system.[I.E. station ping pong]. You are suggesting essentially this, so the natural progression of "attackers get to attack whenever they want" is "defenders get a timer to schedule the battle". Hence 1 hour reinforcement timers on ships] Quote: The guards can be paid for there time you make less but you all make summat the cloaker does not= you win. No, the cloaker is not even on the grid, he is afk, he is doing other things that are profitable to him more than playing the game. By definition it is impossible for him to be profiting more than he could be when at the game. Quote: If the cloaker is afk you are making money and so are your guards, and he is not = you win. No, because you could be making more money having everyone mine in empire in a noob corp. Quote: Your alliance should have enough ppl to defend your carebears in carebear ops from cloakers or they suck and you should find another alliance, btw ive never seen a huge cloaker blob camping a system so please stop with the arm chair what ifs its silly. You might not have, but I have. Furthermore you seem to fail to understand what opportunity cost is. can you please define what opportunity cost is and how it applies to the above situation? Quote: Profits are never less mining or ratting in 0.0 than in empire stop drama queening but yes the risks should be a lot higher hence the guards needed. profits are a factor of time and players. So every player that you need to defend is not producing this means that the time and players goes down for each person. So even at a lower rate, a higher number of producers means that your actual profits go up. Vote Goumindong for CSM
HEY LISTEN i swear this is true	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:25:00 - [127] The fact you think that a empire miner can come even close to making as much as a guarded 0.0 miner shows how much knowledge you have about this game. Your arguments have no basis in fact or even the reality in eve.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:30:00 - [128] Tell that to Rise... oh wait, you can't because we used this tactic to run them out of 0.0 space. Vote Goumindong for CSM
HEY LISTEN i swear this is true	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:37:00 - [129] Originally by: Goumindong Tell that to Rise... oh wait, you can't because we used this tactic to run them out of 0.0 space. Lol if it works against any alliance they do not deserve the title or to be in 0.0. Are BOB gonna be moving to jita in the near future cos of your afk cloakers?. I don't think so.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:40:00 - [130] Originally by: HEY LISTEN Originally by: Goumindong Tell that to Rise... oh wait, you can't because we used this tactic to run them out of 0.0 space. Lol if it works against any alliance they do not deserve the title or to be in 0.0. Are BOB gonna be moving to jita in the near future cos of your afk cloakers?. I don't think so. Only because of the strength of tech 2 BPOs. But if we can keep their moons down they will run out of money. Its already started to a point as they have attempted to shore up their alliance by grabbing who they can from others who don't have access to those resources. Vote Goumindong for CSM

HEY LISTEN i swear this is true	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:57:00 - [131] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: HEY LISTEN Originally by: Goumindong Tell that to Rise... oh wait, you can't because we used this tactic to run them out of 0.0 space. Lol if it works against any alliance they do not deserve the title or to be in 0.0. Are BOB gonna be moving to jita in the near future cos of your afk cloakers?. I don't think so. Only because of the strength of tech 2 BPOs. But if we can keep their moons down they will run out of money. Its already started to a point as they have attempted to shore up their alliance by grabbing who they can from others who don't have access to those resources. WOW now afk cloakers can take out moon mining posses?. Im gonna get me one of those. PS: i see no proof of rise moving to empire to mine btw does this mean your gonna stfu?.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.08 21:04:00 - [132] Edited by: Goumindong on 08/04/2008 21:04:27 they didn't move to empire, they dissolved and got absorbed by other alliances not quite so close to be assaulted. Also, note that i did not say they would move to empire, i said that they would do better in empire... But really... http://www.eve-maps.com/outpostalert/alliancechart.asp?FilterType=Alliance&FilterBy=RISE Vote Goumindong for CSM
HEY LISTEN i swear this is true	Posted - 2008.04.08 21:12:00 - [133] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 08/04/2008 21:04:27 they didn't move to empire, they dissolved and got absorbed by other alliances not quite so close to be assaulted. Also, note that i did not say they would move to empire, i said that they would do better in empire... But really... http://www.eve-maps.com/outpostalert/alliancechart.asp?FilterType=Alliance&FilterBy=RISE Well by the sound of it they did not deserve to be in 0.0 if afk cloakers did that to them, but if you think that ppl even paying guards can make more in empire than in 0.0 you are totally clueless. Alliances/individuals should organize mining ops in 0.0 the same way miners in empire have concord its part of civilizing hostile systems and if an alliance cannot do that they should fold.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.08 21:13:00 - [134] Please elucidate on how you can organize this mining op around a large gang of cloaking ships. Vote Goumindong for CSM
HEY LISTEN i swear this is true	Posted - 2008.04.08 21:20:00 - [135] Edited by: HEY LISTEN on 08/04/2008 21:24:57 Edited by: HEY LISTEN on 08/04/2008 21:20:11 Originally by: Goumindong Please elucidate on how you can organize this mining op around a large gang of cloaking ships. Figure it out for yourself its easy and obvious to anybody who does not need ccp to fight for them, cos im tired of talking to a liar who's arguments are those of a child. If i get a ban for saying this fine its worth it.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.08 21:33:00 - [136] Originally by: HEY LISTEN Edited by: HEY LISTEN on 08/04/2008 21:31:17 Originally by: Goumindong Please elucidate on how you can organize this mining op around a large gang of cloaking ships. Figure it out for yourself its easy and obvious to anybody who does not need ccp to fight for them, cos im tired of talking to a liar who's arguments are those of a child. If i get a ban for saying this, fine its worth it. So again, no proof. And if its so easy, why could an alliance of 1000 not do it? Vote Goumindong for CSM
HEY LISTEN i swear this is true	Posted - 2008.04.08 21:35:00 - [137] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: HEY LISTEN Edited by: HEY LISTEN on 08/04/2008 21:31:17 Originally by: Goumindong Please elucidate on how you can organize this mining op around a large gang of cloaking ships. Figure it out for yourself its easy and obvious to anybody who does not need ccp to fight for them, cos im tired of talking to a liar who's arguments are those of a child. If i get a ban for saying this, fine its worth it. So again, no proof. And if its so easy, why could an alliance of 1000 not do it? PROOF OF WHAT???????? THAT ITS A BAD IDEA TO MINE/RAT WITH A CLOAKED OR NOT CLOAKED BLOB IN LOCAL, ARE YOU SERIOUS?????... GO AWAY!!!!!!.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.08 21:37:00 - [138] No, proof that you can organize a mining op that can defend against said cloakers as you claim. You can't make the cloakers leave, and mining with them in local is stupid, so what do you do? Hell, i am willing to accept a thought experiment on the issue. Vote Goumindong for CSM
HEY LISTEN i swear this is true	Posted - 2008.04.08 21:47:00 - [139] Originally by: Goumindong No, proof that you can organize a mining op that can defend against said cloakers as you claim. You can't make the cloakers leave, and mining with them in local is stupid, so what do you do? Hell, i am willing to accept a thought experiment on the issue. Why so you can fly a imaginary cloaked blob on top of my solo frig guard if a blob is in local do not carebear?. Its about appropriate measures or are you to much of a noob to understand that?. I think you should join eve uni tbh cos guarding a few miners from a few cloakers is 0.0 101.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.08 22:31:00 - [140] So you are saying that all anyone has to do to stop production is park some folks AFK and stick cloaks on their ships? That seems so balanced, that you can just go and disrupt enemy production without risk. Vote Goumindong for CSM

HEY LISTEN i swear this is true	Posted - 2008.04.08 22:41:00 - [141] Edited by: HEY LISTEN on 08/04/2008 22:43:00 Originally by: Goumindong So you are saying that all anyone has to do to stop production is park some folks AFK and stick cloaks on their ships? That seems so balanced, that you can just go and disrupt enemy production without risk. No your claiming that remember, im saying that ppl need to and can be be defended while they mine/rat, or even move to another system and guard the gates. Im hope you not gonna get on the committee cos you idea of eve warfare will be a bunch of ppl standing opposite each other taking turns to shoot, and with miners in 0.0 safe as houses making isk by the bucket full. You idea favors the blob (what a surprise from a goon) as without cloaking small squads will not be able to be in systems outnumbered.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.08 22:47:00 - [142] Edited by: Goumindong on 08/04/2008 22:49:09 Originally by: HEY LISTEN No your claiming that remember, im saying that ppl need to and can be be defended while they mine/rat, or evenShockedShocked move to another system and guard the gates. Originally by: You, the last freaking post before the above quote Why so you can fly a imaginary cloaked blob on top of my solo frig guard, if a blob is in local do not carebear how hard is that to understand?. And if they are in all your systems? Please, if its so easy, tell me how to defend a mining op without incurring unreasonable cost or losing ships to a bunch of cloaked ships. Quote: You idea favors the blob (what a surpriseRolling Eyes from a goon) as without cloaking small squads will not be able to be in systems outnumbered. I don't want to get rid of cloaking, i want to get rid of cloaking without being at the keyboard. If you are at the keyboard its pretty much impossible for you to be caught if you are in a ship designed to cloak. Edit: Also, have i not flat out said that we have abused this mechanic to its fullest? How in the world is arguing against a mechanic that we have and will continue to abuse an argument towards the interests of my alliance? Vote Goumindong for CSM
HEY LISTEN i swear this is true	Posted - 2008.04.08 22:52:00 - [143] Edited by: HEY LISTEN on 08/04/2008 22:55:58 1. Define unreasonable cost cos i consider making isk without risk in 0.0 unreasonable tbh as a alliance should guard its miners and miners should pay for the protection provided, but crying to ccp about it is unacceptable as it is free. 2. Uncloaking after 5 mins unless you reset the timer will do just that. 3. The alliance you "claim" folded because of this tactic was weak and did not guard its miners properly so it deserved to fold the tactic is poor and if a alliance put together well organized mining ops your cloakers would have been useless while profits for the miners would still be massively higher than empire and your claims other wise are absurd.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.08 23:10:00 - [144] Cost that pushes return under opportunity cost of producing in empire is unreasonable. Why not just let us scan them down? Same effect except now you can kill ratters who cloak as soon as you enter local instead of not being able to. Rise was pretty useless, but i can't really say they were any more useless than tri. Vote Goumindong for CSM
HEY LISTEN i swear this is true	Posted - 2008.04.08 23:14:00 - [145] Originally by: Goumindong Cost that pushes return under opportunity cost of producing in empire is unreasonable. No way is running guarded mining ops in 0.0 less profitable than empire and if you think it is you have no clue, no clue at all.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.08 23:30:00 - [146] 20m/acct/hour is fairly easily achieved in empire[not even including LP rewards] You would need everyone in your gang pulling down 40m/acct/hour to defend them. Vote Goumindong for CSM
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.08 23:59:00 - [147] Per person, not per account. 20m/hour is at the top end of possible in empire in the same config as what you would be running in 0.0 iirc[and mineral prices havent gone down at more] But you are not constrained to mining which is why i said "not including LP", because 20m/hour is fairly easy for mission running. Vote Goumindong for CSM
HEY LISTEN i swear this is true	Posted - 2008.04.09 00:16:00 - [148] Originally by: Goumindong Per person, not per account. 20m/hour is at the top end of possible in empire in the same config as what you would be running in 0.0 iirc[and mineral prices havent gone down at more] But you are not constrained to mining which is why i said "not including LP", because 20m/hour is fairly easy for mission running. A capital mining ship cannot give bonuses in empire im told and they give really good ones from what my guy tells me. Empire miners dream about 20 mil a hour btw but they never manage it. And yup mission runners can make good isk but they hardly need to live in empire now do they have you heard of empire alts?.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.09 00:20:00 - [149] You don't need a rorq, you just need any command ship. Vote Goumindong for CSM
HEY LISTEN i swear this is true	Posted - 2008.04.09 00:27:00 - [150] Originally by: Goumindong You don't need a rorq, you just need any command ship. Its about profit bud remember and a rorq cannot be used in empire.

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