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Packtu'sa
Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp
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Posted - 2008.07.01 22:29:00 -
[181]
 Originally by: Carniflex
Also as long as someone has made the fuel cells it's so simple that even pvp character could to it. Unlike current situation where poor guy has to figure out what amount and what should he dump into tower.
Gee, so can I make a carebear character and make fighting "so simple that even a mining character could do it"? Uhh, no. There's a reason EVE has specializations and professions that are not directly part of the game mechanics. At least 90% of the time, I will be much better at deploying and managing a starbase in every way than a player who has only had experience in small-gang combat. Why? Because I have devoted a lot of my playtime in EVE to managing starbases in every scenario: rapid-deployment safespots, sovereignty holding deathstars, industrial mining and reaction towers, research and manufacturing towers, and supercapital ship (i.e. mothership/titan) construction towers. However, even though I can fly interceptors on my alt, I really suck with them and I die a lot, because I haven't had the practice. Would you appreciate if I could be a kickass interceptor pilot without any practice? No. Hence, I don't appreciate that you could be a kickass starbase operator without any practice.
Packtu'sa
Starbase Fuel Calculator |
Carniflex
Caldari
Fallout Research
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2008.07.02 11:17:00 -
[182]
Originally by: Packtu'sa
Originally by: Carniflex
Also as long as someone has made the fuel cells it's so simple that even pvp character could to it. Unlike current situation where poor guy has to figure out what amount and what should he dump into tower.
Gee, so can I make a carebear character and make fighting "so simple that even a mining character could do it"? Uhh, no. There's a reason EVE has specializations and professions that are not directly part of the game mechanics. At least 90% of the time, I will be much better at deploying and managing a starbase in every way than a player who has only had experience in small-gang combat. Why? Because I have devoted a lot of my playtime in EVE to managing starbases in every scenario: rapid-deployment safespots, sovereignty holding deathstars, industrial mining and reaction towers, research and manufacturing towers, and supercapital ship (i.e. mothership/titan) construction towers. However, even though I can fly interceptors on my alt, I really suck with them and I die a lot, because I haven't had the practice. Would you appreciate if I could be a kickass interceptor pilot without any practice? No. Hence, I don't appreciate that you could be a kickass starbase operator without any practice.
It's not about being kickass pos manager, it's being about being able to refuel it without your pocket calculator. Approx same difference in responce of you biting at that 'even pvp char could do it' as there is between good inty pilot (that takes a lot of real experience) and a guy whith ability to fly that inty with needed modules.
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Packtu'sa
Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp
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Posted - 2008.07.02 19:08:00 -
[183]
There is no reason to make the fueling process easier. There are plenty of other avenues for expanding production in the game, and if anything, it is already too easy to manage starbases. Have you ever taken a look at moons in low-sec space near Jita? Whole systems are dominated by RA alt corps with towers continually running reactions. Even I, with my horrible satellite Internet connection, was able to run tower reactions in low-sec space with very little management and make a lot of money doing it. How is this 'too difficult' for a combat character? All you need is Anchoring trained up to Level I, (or Level III at most if you want the most advanced structures) and you can run a starbase.
This is already too simple, and 'complicated' is what makes EVE such a brilliant game. Do not ruin that!
Packtu'sa
Starbase Fuel Calculator |
ElrondMD
The Arrow Project
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.07.05 12:36:00 -
[184]
This idea is flawed at its most simplest due to two simple factors:
1. You cant simplify a system by adding another stage.
2. For every production stage comes an added cost assumed and passed on by said producer.
The process of opening your fuel receptacle and placing fuel into it is by far the easiest stage.
The only way i would be happy with this change would be if both fuelling techniques were allowed and the pellets contained a natural consumption bonus due to their optimal configuration for towers. Otherwise this is simply a new market for resellers to screw with.
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Rawr Cristina
Caldari
Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.07.05 21:31:00 -
[185]
Fuel itself is flawed IMO since it's all NPC-seeded to begin with. There's no actual step in getting the fuel except 'buy it on market'
fuel pellets sound interesting... but so long as they're going to be built entirely with NPC-sold commodities (barring the isotope), I don't really like it so much.
...
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Morcam
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Posted - 2008.07.08 14:50:00 -
[186]
Even though the numbers are not perfect (As the other 9318247190751903895168024319374189769351032 posters have pointed out before me), I still think the idea is fantastic. Streamlining the fueling would be epic win.
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Col Callahan
Caldari
Oberon Incorporated
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.07.15 01:01:00 -
[187]
I Hope to god to see this happen.
The frist thing that comes to mind when I think about the idea of shifting the fuel over from Mission dropped items to everyday minerals is the fact that there would no longer be a use or need for those Items.
So what I propose is that instead of the Fuel Rod BPO taking every day minerals, have it take the same amounts of the current POS fueling system to build these Fuel Rods.
No matter what way you take this idea, It would be the best thing to happen to POS logistics.
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TCL987
Gallente
Venture Initiative
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Posted - 2008.07.15 03:16:00 -
[188]
Would these BPs have waste on them if so wouldn't it increase the cost for people attempting to run a POS with pellets from un-researched BPs?
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Carniflex
Caldari
StarHunt
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2008.07.15 08:05:00 -
[189]
Originally by: TCL987
Would these BPs have waste on them if so wouldn't it increase the cost for people attempting to run a POS with pellets from un-researched BPs?
I would speculate that they would be like mineral/ice compression prints for Roqual are, with 0% base waste. At least thats the impression I'm getting from this thread.
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Dav Varan
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Posted - 2008.07.15 16:43:00 -
[190]
I have a better Idea.
Get rid of all fuel requirements except stront.
Ships that move around dont require fuel.
Pos that stay still do require fuel.
Go figure.
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Zzz
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Posted - 2008.07.17 15:13:00 -
[191]
When I first posted the # of fuel pellets per hour needed to preserve the current fuel ratios, I forgot about the non-rare faction towers. e.g. Guristas rather than Dread Guristas towers.
The numbers get quite a bit larger if you want to be exact, but you could just divide everything by 10, round, and still be within 1% of the correct ratio for every type of tower.
Zzz research towers
Direrie
NEW: Liekuri
20:1 low-end compression |
Immersive
Immersive Technology Solutions
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Posted - 2008.07.22 04:38:00 -
[192]
First point: "Fuel Cell" is quite appropriate for what we are discussing, given that you are taking myriad parts and building something mechanical, and yet consumable, to provide energy.
Secondly, I like the idea of simplifying the pos fueling and bringing industrialists into the pos management life-cycle. Anyone who thinks this wont simplify pos management is forgetting their role's description and purpose. POS Manager sources the fuel types (including the fuel cells) that the station uses, and the Industrial Manager sources the parts to build the fuel cells.
I saw someone had proposed a dual-stage fuel cell production process, and I came up with this (which may be similar, my apologies):
Item: Fuel Cell Catalyst
Req Materials: NPC items required to fuel a standard small pos for an hour.
Total Volume: 75% of Req Material volume
Batch Size: Number required to fuel a standard small pos for an hour
Build Time: 1 minutes
Reprocess: Returns some, but not all, items used in the build process (due to the 75% volume)
Intention: These can be built in high-sec from the NPC trade goods normally required and then shipped to lower sec / POS factories for 'fueling'.
Item: <faction> Fuel Cell
Req Materials: Fuel Cell Catalyst, <Faction> isotopes required to fuel a standard small pos for an hour
Total Volume: 100% of Req Material volume
Batch Size: Number required to fuel a standard small pos for an hour
Build Time: 1 minutes
Reprocess: Returns 100% of Req Materials (you're just detaching the fuel tanks)
Intention: Having acquired the catalyst from the high-sec vendors (players) the completed cells can be manufactured/fueled at or near the pos itself.
Using this method should ease the burden on pos managers, requiring the sourcing of only 3 or 4 fuel types. It also alleviates the issue of locking jump fuel into the fuel cells, as you can either fuel the cells at the pos (if you have a factory array), or reprocess them when you need the fuel.
The production of these items should not be restricted to specific locations (eg low-sec.) owing to the fact that pos installations can be placed anywhere (including high-sec). I do recommend that a new "Fueling" production line type be added to factories in parallel with "Manufacturing" (similar to copy/invention in labs) for the sole purpose of converting the Catalysts into complete Fuel Cells.
Once the mass production starts on these items, price and availability wont be a problem.
During the transition period, having the pos be dual-fuel for a month, and/or making the fuel cell BPOs available a month before the final transition would be highly desirable.
---
New to the API? GrabRaw XML
It's coming...
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Alias fighter
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Posted - 2008.07.23 12:40:00 -
[193]
I really like this idea,
Except I think the racial isotopes need to be separate, as they are found in all space, where as the other items are npc items from empire. Also in the corps I have been in that are running 1 or 2 POS's all the isotopes where mined to save a packet on fuel costs, so to have to buy racial fuel cells would increase the running costs of small pos operations.
Also without isotopes included in the fuel cells, brings the m3 down to an acceptable level of 50m3 small corp's would easily be able to transport 20 days of fuel for a medium pos in their corp industrial ship. |
Mika Meroko
Minmatar
Crayon Posting Inc
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Posted - 2008.07.24 06:32:00 -
[194]
it would be a good idea...
although everybody and their mothers will manufacture their own.. so...
Originally by: CCP Atropos
I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
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Wardo21
The Arcanum
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Posted - 2008.07.24 15:05:00 -
[195]
I object to it on the grounds that there shouldn't be an "easy button" for anything in Eve. The latest over the top PvP fit gets nerfed because it's the "easy button" in that arena.
Leave the difficulty as an opportunity cost or additional overhead to operating a POS. It's not that hard to decide how many hours you want to fuel the POS for, multiply that by whatever the stat is for your tower, and place a market order for that quantity.
Time consuming and tedious at times, but it's the cost of doing business.
Perhaps a couple levels in some trade skills, so the POS manager can place buy orders ahead of time. (Possibly creating a market for ice miners in the area?) If the buy orders aren't filled at your price, then the market price will be paid to get what you need before the fuel runs out. The NPC stuff is more cost/benefit depending on the range to the resource and it's price. Is it worth 10 extra jumps to get 2 isk less per unit?
If you want to do anything to change the situation, let the NPC stuff be manufactured by the players. Robotics and mech parts should have mineral requirements; perhaps a RAM Robotics and a new RAM Mechanics part as well.
Enriched Uranium and Coolant can be side products of, or completely new moon mining reactions. Or as an Ice refining byproducts for coolant. You could add EU as a side product from normal mining, sometimes you get a unit or two of EU, instead of a couple units of whatever it is you're mining.
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Oliver Everett
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Posted - 2008.07.28 08:06:00 -
[196]
Keep the current different NPC fuels and just introduce a mechanic that Splits apart the "Fuel Rod" when you drag it to the POS Fuel bay into the separate commodities.
Include a Popup "This fuel rod will be consumed once you place it into the bay. Are you sure you want to do this ?". If theres not enough room for the uncompressed components the POS simply will not accept the Fuel Rod.
People who want the convenience and slight compression can deal with the waste created in production (make the BPO take insanely long to raise the ME level - there should be waste)and everyone else will be able to carry on as normal.
Oh and leave the isotopes separate - Just the NPC items as previously mentioned, it doesn't make sense to combine it.
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Blancanieves
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations
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Posted - 2008.07.29 23:28:00 -
[197]
You can mine&refine racial Isotopes in your 0.0 space. You can't buy the other commodities there. If you integrated both into the pellets, you'd remove the possibility for an Empire market based on building pellets. At least those mining their own Ice in 0.0 couldn't use that market.
Just creating one type of pellet and retaining the need to fuel POSes with the racial Isotopes would also greatly increase the usability of fueling. You'd only need to drag four items over instead of eight. You'd also retain the need to calculate the right ratio of Isotopes vs. pellets.
Apart from that, nice idea!
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Isko
Minmatar
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.07.30 21:29:00 -
[198]
geeze pls dont call em pellets which is similar to calling them droppings or etc. How about fuel cells
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Hieronimus Rex
Minmatar
Infinitus Sapientia
New Eden Research
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Posted - 2008.08.01 18:48:00 -
[199]
Excellent Idea!
POS logistics and calculating 30day fuel requirements for 8 different items are a huge hassle, this would simplify things a lot.
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Thano
Amarr
New Found Power
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Posted - 2008.08.04 07:51:00 -
[200]
Originally by: Rupicalous
Market hunting for a fuel rod rather than the seperate commodities could definitly save time and I'm sure it would be worth the added cost; but even if the rod takes up less m3 I need to have the option to keep using individual commodities, otherwise we are just replacing Pos fuel commodities with a new fuel type labled "X".
Id have to agree. It seems to me the people who believe this a bad idea are the same do it yourselfers who still havnt grasped the good old saying "Time Is Money" the time saved buying fuel rods,pellets,bricks whatever equals time allocated to other ventures thus offsetting the increased price of fuel the only people this really hurts are the people who have marked up fuel commodity sell orders in major market hubs.
now lets look at the indirect consequences of this shall we? there are 2 possibility's that can go either way depending on the player base, 1: is that compacting 5 different materials into 1 decreases 5 potential orders on the market into 1 thus the server doesn't have to keep track of so much thus reducing load on said server thus decreasing lag. and 2: is that it increases the server load because people are still selling the materials needed to create the new fuel.
You know what lets eliminate the need for NPC commodities all together shall we.. considering the only real reason for them in the first place was for RP purposes.. and considering they want to compress them down into 1 unit well that makes the whole RP reason Moot so why not just make them out of good old minerals and maybe some secondary commodity.. maybe some type of moon mineral or hell lets just make them run off capacitor batteries no need to even add anything for the database to keep track of
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Princess Jodi
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.07 20:09:00 -
[201]
The tedious part of the fueling process is trying to get the fuel balanced for a specific number of days. While these fuel pellets would solve that, so would a simple additon to the pos fuel bay where you were able to say "Take enough fuel to run for x days."
Do the same in-station so we can load up our haulers appropriatly.
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McSkanky
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Posted - 2008.08.08 15:32:00 -
[202]
This here is a great idea, but it has been several months now. So, just wondering, is it something that may actually happen?
Keeping it complicated in that you need to manufacture the racial fuels from the 5 NPC parts and the iso, then adding another step to manufacture it, will created a nice little empire sub industry. The benefit will be 2 things - transfer of isk from 0.0 back to empire will be a bit larger, and if the M3 of the completed product is smaller, it will ease the logistics. Overall, good things.
Transition of course will be difficult, possibly more difficult to impliment than makes adding in this little sub industry worth wild for CCP's time?
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Stevens
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.08.11 00:30:00 -
[203]
I posted the idea in the Assembly Hall. Go support it here.
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Lesican
Minmatar
HotRock Mining PLC
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Posted - 2008.08.12 16:18:00 -
[204]
Sounds like a great idea - Call them cubes though 
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Alora Venoda
GalTech
Giant Space Amoeba
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Posted - 2008.08.14 19:34:00 -
[205]
Edited by: Alora Venoda on 14/08/2008 19:34:57
Originally by: Blancanieves
You can mine&refine racial Isotopes in your 0.0 space. You can't buy the other commodities there. If you integrated both into the pellets, you'd remove the possibility for an Empire market based on building pellets. At least those mining their own Ice in 0.0 couldn't use that market.
Just creating one type of pellet and retaining the need to fuel POSes with the racial Isotopes would also greatly increase the usability of fueling. You'd only need to drag four items over instead of eight. You'd also retain the need to calculate the right ratio of Isotopes vs. pellets.
Apart from that, nice idea!
this.
usually we would bring a month's worth of commodities out to 0.0 to fuel our POS, but not a month's worth of ICE, which we can mine on site. by needing ICE to make pellets, we would still have to bring the bring the commodities to 0.0 instead of just pellets. so the end result would just be an extra manufacturing step, and our POS fuel commodities would be sitting in a corp hangar instead of the POS itself. 
if pellets were made from only the NPC commodities, then we really could just bring nothing but pellets to 0.0, and mine our ice on site. also many POS fuel suppliers have package deals that omit the ice components, and switching to pellets that required isotopes would ruin that business model.
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Take away the risk and it would make flying around in space utterly pointless.
Take away the flying around part and you make EVE into a space themed spreadsheet application. |
Tkar vonBiggendorf
Gallente
Snake Eyes Inc
Friend or Enemy
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Posted - 2008.08.14 20:39:00 -
[206]
The goal is to make it simpler, right?
Don't make racial pellets/cells/rods. Keep the isotopes separate. Many reasons cited above - cap ship fuel, alliances mining ice locally, etc.
Don't introduce a manufacturing aspect to this. Just make a new NPC market good.. Fuel Rods or whatever.. that we buy *instead* of the set of Robotics, Mech Parts, etc.
Then your biggest problem is what to do with the current stockpiles of goods. Perhaps just have NPC buy orders at the base NPC sell prices for awhile on the old fuel tradegoods?
I promise nothingÖ. --CCP Prism X |
Roger Douglas
Infinite Improbability Inc
Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2008.08.14 20:42:00 -
[207]
This thread appears to be based around 2 groups of people: Those who have stations to manufacture fuel pellets, and those who don't.
The most common arguments here for no fuel pellets is that nomad corps would then have to ship stuff in from empire, and then make the pellets, an added step for them.
The most common arguments for pellets are those who have stations to make them in, and thus very large POS networks to manage.
I'd like to put forward that POSses are primarily for sov purposes. Therefore, fuel pellets benefit those who hold space, stations, and conduct the majority of 0.0 operations. Given that statement, I'm going to say that the nomadic POS owners are in the minority, and those of us that maintain posses for sov space own the greatest amount of posses in EVE. In terms of utility, we benefit most. Giving the players who actually make 0.0 work and incidently give CAOD the best juicy drama more time to PVP would be greatly appreciated! 
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ninjaholic
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Posted - 2008.08.15 15:27:00 -
[208]
All in all, it's a great idea to streamline the POS fuel!
SUPPORT EVE-O's IN-GAME FIGHT RECORD TOOL !! |
Manfred Rickenbocker
The Elliance
Delta.Green
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Posted - 2008.08.15 23:05:00 -
[209]
Bumping in agreement for fuel pellets. Dealing with fuel types is really starting to drive me batty right now. 
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Peace through superior firepower: a guiding principle for uncertain times. |
Morcam
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Posted - 2008.08.17 05:33:00 -
[210]
Originally by: Manfred Rickenbocker
Bumping in agreement for fuel pellets. Dealing with fuel types is really starting to drive me batty right now.
You bumped a sticky?
Anyways, yes, these would be great, especially for smaller corps that have more trouble with logistics.
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