| Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 :: [one page] |
|
|
| Author |
Topic |
|
CCP Greyscale
C C P
    |
Posted - 2008.04.03 17:45:00 -
[1]
Edited by: CCP Greyscale on 03/04/2008 17:52:44
Ok, so weÆve been knocking around a bunch of ideas relating to starbases and so on this week, and one thing that came up as an unnecessary complication of the system is the multiple fuel types needed for each tower.
The Liquid Ozone and Heavy water both serve a distinct purpose, and we need at least one other general fuel type to make the cost/benefit equations work according to the design. ThereÆs no explicit design need though for towers themselves to burn six different fuel types (Racial Isotopes, Enriched Uranium, Mechanical Parts, Coolant, Oxygen and Robotics) at a constant rate.
That said, we donÆt want to disrupt the current mechanics too much, or make any radical changes to the principles behind starbase fuelling until we have the opportunity to revisit the broader set of mechanics. We have therefore come up with a proposal to reduce the logistical complexity of actually fuelling towers (starting with opening your fuel storage receptacle and ending with placing the fuel in the fuel bay).
The key point is that we create four racial ôfuel pelletsö, which replace the isotopes and NPC commodities in the starbase fuel bay. They are manufactured, using blueprints, from the relevant isotope type and NPC commodities (quantities below). You then just pop in Heavy Water, Liquid Ozone and fuel pellets, and the starbase runs as normal.
A requirement of this going in sooner rather than later is that it doesnÆt require any changes to the underlying code. One upshot of this is that all starbases have to be migrated across to using fuel pellets rather than commods û if we go ahead with this, you will not be able to fuel towers directly with isotopes and commodities.
Now for the numbers!
One run of the blueprint will need the following materials, and will output 80 fuel pellets:
Isotopes: 452
Enriched Uranium: 4
Oxygen: 28
Mech Parts: 8
Coolant: 4
Robotics: 4
Towers will consume pellets according to the following scheme:
Large: 80/hour
Medium: 40/hour
Small: 20/hour
Large Faction 1: 70/hour
Medium Faction 1: 35/hour
Small Faction 1: 17/hour
Large Faction 2: 60/hour
Medium Faction 2: 30/hour
Small Faction 2: 15/hour
(Faction 1 is Blood et al, Faction 2 is Dark Blood et al)
YouÆll notice if you run the math that this results in some towers consuming slightly more fuel per cycle than they do currently; if weÆre going to have a single pellet for each isotope we need to either round up or round down due to imperfect scaling between tower types, and rounding down isnÆt really something we want to do here. The 80/40/20 progression lets us keep the 4:2:1 ratio while still rounding cleanly with both sov bonuses.
This is something weÆre considering purely as a usability boost to make actually fuelling towers less painful, so weÆre asking you all whether you think the benefits outweigh the drawbacks. ItÆs not designed to decrease the logistical load at all or to change the major mechanisms of fuelling. Is this something youÆd like to see ingame or should we shelve the idea?
As a bonus question, Fuel Pellets or Fuel Bricks?
|
|
|
CCP Abathur
C C P
|
Posted - 2008.04.03 17:50:00 -
[2]
Edited by: CCP Abathur on 03/04/2008 17:50:27
 Originally by: CCP Greyscale
As a bonus question, Fuel Pellets or Fuel Bricks?
Fuel Bricks '08! \o/
Someone should make sigs.
Abathur
Game Designer
"Tux did it!" |
|
grgjegb gergerg
School of Applied Knowledge
|
Posted - 2008.04.03 17:51:00 -
[3]
Well, if you use pellets, you should be able to jigger around the numbers to make them the same, right? If they're integers, yeah, that kinda screws it, but if they're floats, you should be fine.
Or... just make the pellets really small and have it burn a lot of them instead.
Sounds like a good idea though. Maybe you could go through and convert the existing fuel in towers to pellets the first time, as a freebie? Then people can move out the leftovers and move in more pellets on the next run.
|
|
CCP Hammer
C C P
|
Posted - 2008.04.03 17:56:00 -
[4]
Originally by: grgjegb gergerg
...
How do you pronounce your name? I can just picture the FC on voice coms "TARGET GERBAHJAHGOB GERGERBURGER!!!!!"
|
|
Abrazzar
|
Posted - 2008.04.03 18:10:00 -
[5]
I love this idea, it'd make juggling fuel so much more easy. It might even spawn a small sub-industry that produces the pellets/granulate/bricks/briquettes/rods/mentos.
--------
Ideas for:
Mining
Clouds
|
Reecoh Soltar
Exotic Dancer Talent Agency
United Corporations Against Macros
|
Posted - 2008.04.03 18:31:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Reecoh Soltar on 03/04/2008 18:33:43
What kind of POS array could these be built in? Component?
What would the base build time be for a run?
What skills are you considering for the BPOs? You'd need to let everyone know well ahead of time so folks could skill up to use the new BPOs when they were introduced. Hate to have a POS go down b/c it was low when the patch hit and no one could make the fuel.
I'm not sure this is a major improvement, since it introduces an extra step and requires a bit more logistical planning (i.e. making sure you build enough before the fuel date). Not to mention requiring the occasional use of a manufacture slot. Those seem like fair trades though for a simplified process at the tower itself.
I'd like to see the towers simply tell you the optimal mix to use on the Manage Tower UI. The two combined might be the real win 
Edit: Fuel Katamari?
|
grgjegb gergerg
|
Posted - 2008.04.03 18:54:00 -
[7]
Originally by: CCP Hammer
Originally by: grgjegb gergerg
...
How do you pronounce your name? I can just picture the FC on voice coms "TARGET GERBAHJAHGOB GERGERBURGER!!!!!"
Lol, just a scout alt that happens to be at the top of my "post as" list on the forums. I pounded the keyboard.
|
Da'iel Zehn
Suune Core Operations
|
Posted - 2008.04.03 19:18:00 -
[8]
This is a great idea! I like fuel bricks better, or some other term. Pellets just remind me of sheep or something. 
The BPOs will cost how much?
--
DZ's website
|
Cailais
|
Posted - 2008.04.03 21:40:00 -
[9]
Sounds an excellent idea.
Fuel Rods is also a far better name.
C.
 Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Improved Low Sec Idea!! |
Max Teranous
The Illuminati.
Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.04.04 09:13:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Max Teranous on 04/04/2008 09:14:36
It's a fine idea in concept, with a few other things that need to be considered:
a) Build time. A very low build time minimizes the issues with finding a manufacturing slot. Your intention is to ease the process, so making the new middle step as painless as possible would be good.
b) Wastage of the BPO. Either zero wastage or a very low ME time so that perfect prints can be researched quickly IMO. Same reason as above, make the new step easy for POS fuelers.
c) Volume of the pellets. The ingredient list comes to 123.8 m3, which is pretty rubbish as round numbers go. Leave it the same, or round down or up? Having a vol of 120 m3 seems nice, it's a small boost to how many you can fit in a tower which offsets the fact that some of the towers take slightly more fuelling in this proposal.
d) Implementation. Releasing the BPO a few weeks/the patch before the change to allow research and building of pellets to take place seems reasonable, ditto as someone else posted to convert existing stocks of fuel in towers to stop them going offline as the change is made.
Fake edit: And yeah, Fuel Rods is a good name
Max  |
|
Zaphroid Eulthran
Imperial Visions
|
Posted - 2008.04.04 11:25:00 -
[11]
Hmm, I like the idea, and second (or is it 5th by now) the Fuel Rods name.
I assume its safe to assume the volume of a fuel rod will be equal to the sum of its components?
As for the manufacturing of them, if the volumes are equal and npc components are only available in empire there should be no need to have them produced at a POS.
Would the racial charters still be burned in High security POSes as before?
Hi-Sec Industry NEEDS Mini Freighters <- not T2 bazillion ISK alliance toys |
Eleana Tomelac
|
Posted - 2008.04.04 11:51:00 -
[12]
I want fuel pills, my POS is sick!
I hope we can build those things very very quickly in some kind of POS manufacturing array that would be cheap (I only fuel it, I never use the arrays appart from the ship hangar and corp hangar... Don't ask me about manufacturing in a POS!).
Oh wait, or add a fuel pill array! This way, either you build the pills in station or you build them in this cheap new module that should use very little POS ressources, have a low anchoring time and have a very low onlining time (so we can come with the fuel, online the module, make pills, feed the POS).
I'm all for such system, I remember a few time when drunk people fuelled the POS and forgot uranium or oxygen or something and we had to do an emergency refuel! At least with pills, people can keep drinking beer in their eve beer glass while refuelling!
--
Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast !
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Assault Frigates MK II |
mamolian
|
Posted - 2008.04.04 12:09:00 -
[13]
Interesting idea. Should be completely hilarious watching all those directors n ceo's spamming the factories with fuel pellet builds 
-----------
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
ZaKma
Seraphin Technologies
Mercenary Coalition
|
Posted - 2008.04.04 12:40:00 -
[14]
Fuel rods!
✖ Arachnophobia ✖ |
Mynchko Atoch
Atoch Family Holdings
|
Posted - 2008.04.04 12:42:00 -
[15]
Manufacturing of Fuel Pellets with their high radioactivity could have onerous safety regulations in empire space and in NPC station Factory slots. The dangers from the highly radioactive nature of the work can be ameliorated by production in POS arrays .. or in places that CONCORD's writ doesn't run .. ie .. Player Built stations.
Mess with the production bonuses .. make it far cheaper/faster to produce them outside of empire. Maybe introduce a black market in them Certified Quality Assured Official Fuel Pellets legal in Empire. And home brew ones, with an appropriate degree of illegality manufactured in places where safety precautions are unheard of.
Two Items. Two BPOs. Significantly extra gameplay and market complexity.
|
maarud
|
Posted - 2008.04.04 12:59:00 -
[16]
You can kiss factory slots good bye.
I personally not quite sure I see the point. Yeah sure, you'd have an easier time working out what the fuel amount is for say 20d, but most people have that covered anyway via some means or another.
So now instead of taking all the fuels to teh POS, you've got to find a free factory slot somewhere in empire, build the fuel, which takes X time and then ship it to your POS. Of course you could just go to a empire hub and buy the fuels from people who are making them to sell off as profit, but then you can do that anyway now with the NPC goods.
Also, how are you going to switch it over? Are you going to release the BPO's say like 2-3 weeks in advance so people can build the pellets before the switch? I mean, it would be kind of funny to see every POS in eve go off line till the owners can build some fuel pellets, but I don't the owners would find it amusing so much.
Its a good idea, but with the build times/factory slots its gonna be iffy. It might just make everyone's logistical lives a hell of alot worse.
Maarud. 
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Proudly a Ex-BYDI member
<t20> i'd rather have a python in my pants than a sle |
Tarron Sarek
Cadien Cybernetics
|
Posted - 2008.04.04 13:57:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 04/04/2008 14:04:08
Originally by: maarud
I personally not quite sure I see the point. Yeah sure, you'd have an easier time working out what the fuel amount is for say 20d, but most people have that covered anyway via some means or another.
That was pretty much my initial thought.
Imho it dumbs the game down a bit.
Less though (figuring out the amounts), more work (find slot, move fuel, build rods, move rods).
edit: Wouldn't it be better to let the POS calculate and display the required amount of Liquid Ozone and Heavy water?
I know there are POS planners out there, but just for some simple calculations I don't use a third party tool, so this is still an inconvenience, which could be removed.
___________________________________
- Balance is power, guard it well -
Please stop using the word 'nerf'
Nothing spells 'incompetence' or 'don't take me serious' like those four letters |
mamolian
Eternity INC.
Mercenary Coalition
|
Posted - 2008.04.04 15:11:00 -
[18]
Why not dumb it down further.. and get rid of racial isotopes 
-----------
 |
LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
|
Posted - 2008.04.04 16:33:00 -
[19]
I love this idea.
Go for it guys. Pleeeaaaase do this!!!
 |
Vily
Eternity INC.
Mercenary Coalition
|
Posted - 2008.04.04 17:08:00 -
[20]
three things.
1) build time must be BEYOND quick. AKA less than a thirty seconds per run OR LESS.
otherwise you'll find every manufacturing slot in the whole of eve crammed with fuel rods.
2) while i understand the simplicity (lets help people aspect) your INCREASING the cost or running towers. fuel rods will sell for 5-10% more than thier build cost. and lets be honest, most people buy their fuel. you can say build it yourself! but because i have to use factory slots and a bpo there is increased value in the fuel rod.
3) your doing the opposite of what you set out to do. your making things more difficult rather than easier. currently i have to spend 2minutes using MYPOS program to calculate what i need for fuel. so with this change it will only take me 30sec to calculate how many rods i need but at increased cost, and increased cost on everything else in game because of decreased manufacturing slots
-
 |
|
Tiberius Xavier
|
Posted - 2008.04.04 17:21:00 -
[21]
Vily, I don't know if I agree with #2 and #3. I think it would simplify what is needed to fuel a tower, but you are right: Charters, Strontium Clathrates, Liquid Ozone and Heavy Water are still needed. As for #2, it creates another great opportunity for industrialists in Empire to make isk.
Where I have a concern regarding the fuel rods (the name I like too) are:
1) We are still beholden on Empire commodities to maintain towers
*) Questions of size (m3) needs addressing. It is taxing on logistics already.
2) If the rods are racially specific, what would be the wastage for reprocessing and rebuilding the other type of rod? Effectively this would require either building in 0.0, or overprocuring oxygen, uranium, robotics, mechanical parts, etc. to stock on the various types.
3) Would all the fuel in existing towers be converted to the appropriate fuel rods upon upgrade of the server?
4) Can a module be created to build these rods at a POS thereby alleviating the rare manufacturing slots.
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
Tarron Sarek
|
Posted - 2008.04.04 18:06:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Tiberius Xavier
4) Can a module be created to build these rods at a POS thereby alleviating the rare manufacturing slots.
This illustrates the issue at hand.
The fuel is at the POS, but you can't use it right away.
Not exactly what I'd call streamlining.
Ok I have to admit a bit of differentiation is needed.
Fuel rods would probably be a positive change for large corporations and alliances, because it would simplify refuelling of many POS'es.
The preparation, i.e. researching the fuel rod BPO, moving fuel, producing the rods and calculating the amounts is more work than currently needed, but it's pretty much a one time effort.
So the relation between the actual refuelling runs and the preparation work determines whether or not a player or group of players benefit from this idea.
For single POS owners it's quite likely not an improvement.
___________________________________
- Balance is power, guard it well -
Nothing spells 'incompetence' or 'don't take me serious' like 'nerf'
Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam |
Rhaegor Stormborn
|
Posted - 2008.04.04 18:33:00 -
[23]
For those of us that live in 0.0 out of POSes without any stations this will be a huge pain the ass if we can not still choose to use non-pellet fuel as we maintain a substantial volume of POS fuel in 0.0 and would have to have it all hauled back to empire to conversion to the new pellet based fuel.
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Volition Cult Recruitment Post |
Wesley Baird
|
Posted - 2008.04.04 18:34:00 -
[24]
Wish the pellets would be generic, so with the bpo's you could use any isotope and produce fuel for any tower...that would save time.
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
Goumindong
|
Posted - 2008.04.04 18:36:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Goumindong on 04/04/2008 18:38:07
So what is the point of the change?
Because to me, it looks like, in your quest to make things simpler and easier, you have simply added a step inbetween buy and haul.
This doesn't make it less complex, it makes it more complex. That is, unless we are compressing these things, which only means you can haul more of it and put more into the starbase.
You still have to do the math, except now you do it during production instead of doing it before hauling, whop-de-do.
Short answer: This doesn't solve anything, doesn't make anything less complex, and is fairly stupid as a whole.
The problems with starbase fueling is that its even required at all, it serves no ingame purpose but to bore the hell out of your players. Logistics needs to be about getting ships and ammunition to the front, not about running fuels everywhere in your system[because, if you can't be bothered to fuel it how could you be bothered to defend it? combined with making POS's actually vulnerable to attack(to make them useless rather than destroyed].
The problem is not solved by making it more complex.
Originally by: mamolian
Why not dumb it down further.. and get rid of fuel altogether
Fixed that for you.
http://eve-files.com/dl/154147
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Vote Goumindong for CSM[/url] |
Ethen Bejorn
Pestilent Industries Amalgamated
|
Posted - 2008.04.04 18:55:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Goumindong
Edited by: Goumindong on 04/04/2008 18:38:07
So what is the point of the change?
Because to me, it looks like, in your quest to make things simpler and easier, you have simply added a step inbetween buy and haul.
This doesn't make it less complex, it makes it more complex. That is, unless we are compressing these things, which only means you can haul more of it and put more into the starbase.
You still have to do the math, except now you do it during production instead of doing it before hauling, whop-de-do.
Short answer: This doesn't solve anything, doesn't make anything less complex, and is fairly stupid as a whole.
The problems with starbase fueling is that its even required at all, it serves no ingame purpose but to bore the hell out of your players. Logistics needs to be about getting ships and ammunition to the front, not about running fuels everywhere in your system[because, if you can't be bothered to fuel it how could you be bothered to defend it? combined with making POS's actually vulnerable to attack(to make them useless rather than destroyed].
The problem is not solved by making it more complex.
Originally by: mamolian
Why not dumb it down further.. and get rid of fuel altogether
Fixed that for you.
You are a "good" Goon.
|
Wesley Baird
D00M.
Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.04.04 18:56:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Goumindong
Edited by: Goumindong on 04/04/2008 18:38:07
So what is the point of the change?
Because to me, it looks like, in your quest to make things simpler and easier, you have simply added a step inbetween buy and haul.
This doesn't make it less complex, it makes it more complex. That is, unless we are compressing these things, which only means you can haul more of it and put more into the starbase.
You still have to do the math, except now you do it during production instead of doing it before hauling, whop-de-do.
Short answer: This doesn't solve anything, doesn't make anything less complex, and is fairly stupid as a whole.
The problems with starbase fueling is that its even required at all, it serves no ingame purpose but to bore the hell out of your players. Logistics needs to be about getting ships and ammunition to the front, not about running fuels everywhere in your system[because, if you can't be bothered to fuel it how could you be bothered to defend it? combined with making POS's actually vulnerable to attack(to make them useless rather than destroyed].
The problem is not solved by making it more complex.
Originally by: mamolian
Why not dumb it down further.. and get rid of fuel altogether
Fixed that for you.
I agree 100%, make some benefits for this extra step...allow any isotope to be used to make a generic pellet...and make the m3 of the pellets smaller than the current fuel load by 50%...then you have given people some reason to implement another step, because without any clear benefit this is an additional time sink to a job that is already basically a soul sucking timesink...
 |
Abrazzar
|
Posted - 2008.04.04 19:24:00 -
[28]
Make fuel rods reprocess into 'Fuel Stubs' and the factional isotopes.
Make blueprints that can turn 'Fuel Stubs' into Fuel Rods with factional isotopes.
Make 'Fuel Stubs' reprocess into their fuel components
Make blueprints for 'Fuel Stubs'
Add a Reprocessing Plant to the POS Structures
Add a new POS Structure for building Fuel Rods and Stubs or make them producible in a normal equipment assembly array.
Reduce the volume of Fuel Rods by a certain percentage to balance the additional production step (and cost increase) compared to their components.
Add a star civilization kind of game mechanic to sovereignty that allows alliances to produce their own commodities (and make those sources of commodities destroyable by small(ish) gangs to encourage small gang combat).
I think that should cover most things.
Oh, maybe remove sovereignty from POSes to eliminate redundant POS spam. *shrugs*
--------
Ideas for:
Mining
Clouds
|
Seiji Hannah
Death of Virtue
Sex Panthers
|
Posted - 2008.04.04 20:18:00 -
[29]
This does make more sense than current associated hassle with all the different components, however - name them "Fuel Rods" not "Fuel Pellets" and definetly not "Fuel Bricks" please.
Also it seems that this change would be made even better by removing the differences between racial-specific components.
Question : was the naming idea *hatched* during somebodies insightfull private time in the bathroom ?
|
Bane Glorious
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.04.04 20:29:00 -
[30]
I would assume that the devs intend for empire industrialists to handle the extra work with manufacturing fuel pellets/pills/bricks/canisters/rods, not the consumers themselves. People in 0.0 would just have to find a small hub that has fuel rods, buy as much as needed, and haul them away. This would be in lieu of making a series of jumps around a region to pick up each individual fuel type and keeping track of it all.
It seems that it would have the biggest benefit to small alliances or corps, which is good, as 0.0 needs more accessibility for casual players, and so it seems like it could improve things, but I can still think of a couple flaws. First, currently people can (can, even if they don't really) compress ice with a Rorqual and take it into deep 0.0, but it appears at this point that you can't compress these fuel rods. What would be the point of compessed ice then, except for delivering large quantities of fuel for capital ship jumping only?
And another thing, the extra cost due to the manufacturing stage and so forth is kind of cruel. It's already pretty expensive to maintain a few towers, ISK wise.
And then there's the possibility of clogging up factory slots in empire; perhaps there could be separate fuel rod manufacturing slots in stations, similar to booster production slots? |
|
Maaku
|
Posted - 2008.04.04 20:47:00 -
[31]
Making the isotopes part of the fuel units makes for unnecessary complications with regard to manufacture/logistics.
Keep it simple:
NPCs sell fuel units which replace the Uranium/Oxygen/MechParts/Coolant/Robotics.
You fuel the tower with fuel units, the appropriate isotope, heavy water, liquid ozone, and (where necessary) charters.
Much easier all around, without fundamentally changing the shape of POS logistics, requiring new blueprints to buy/research, or imposing new demand on manufacturing.
|
Tiberius Xavier
|
Posted - 2008.04.04 20:55:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Tiberius Xavier on 04/04/2008 20:54:57
Originally by: Maaku
Making the isotopes part of the fuel units makes for unnecessary complications with regard to manufacture/logistics.
Keep it simple:
NPCs sell fuel units which replace the Uranium/Oxygen/MechParts/Coolant/Robotics.
I think this is a great point. It provides more versatility for the isotopes: capital fuel .vs. POS fuel.
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
Goumindong
|
Posted - 2008.04.04 21:01:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Bane Glorious
People in 0.0 would just have to find a small hub that has fuel rods, buy as much as needed, and haul them away. This would be in lieu of making a series of jumps around a region to pick up each individual fuel type and keeping track of it all.
Except they wouldn't do this anyway. If there were a market for the fuels they would be hauled to that location.
As it stands, everyone just goes to jita/other large market hub and buys everything.
http://eve-files.com/dl/154147
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Vote Goumindong for CSM[/url] |
RedClaws
Dragon's Rage
Intrepid Crossing
|
Posted - 2008.04.04 21:41:00 -
[34]
I'd have to agree with maaku.
If you want to make pos logistics simpler the only change should be that the npc sold items like enriched uranium and robotics become combined into fuel rods which should also be npc sold.
The problem most people seem to have missed is that some alliances actually mine their own isotopes instead of buying it. If you would like racial rods these alliances would have to produce these racial fuel rods first which, like was already mentioned, adds another step to the fueling process.
But ofcourse if you're only going to change 5 items into 1 item you might as well leave it as it is.
|
Whip Slagcheek
Vajayjay
|
Posted - 2008.04.04 21:50:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Whip Slagcheek on 04/04/2008 21:51:45
I would name it "Fuel Cell".
Awesome idea. I had actually brought this up with some people a while back and they agreed it sounded logical. The faction towers being off on fuel usage is the main drawback but I think the pros outweigh the cons.
edit: about the blueprints, just make sure manufacturing time is almost immediate (just packaging it really) and no waste.
|
Victor Ivanov
The Fated
Odyssey.
|
Posted - 2008.04.04 21:53:00 -
[36]
Can I just say that in this current incarnation, the idea has potential but is not entirely feasible due to the fact that it actually makes running POS'ses MORE complex, rather than easier.
I would suggest a few things that could improve that:
1) Mitigate the repercussions to factory slots by adding a category specficially for them. Personally I feel that even with short run times, certain people would just keep spamming them over and over again to create many many pellets therefore causing the already heavily contested industrial slots to become even fuller.
2) Why not get rid of commodities all together? From an RP point of view, the racial charters make sense, but POS'ses in 0.0 are arbitrarily designed to require specific items which can only be taken down from empire. Given the pioneering nature of living in 0.0, I feel it's kinda odd that there is no way to allow you to produce those materials by yourself. From an RP point of view, I'm sure the pioneers could have taken some form of construction method with them from the gazillion npc's that build these parts. Perhaps adding a new Ice product to serve as a new POS fuel in place of the commodities would be going a little overboard with simplicity, but a mixture of ice + producing your own commodities is in my eyes a viable and suitably complex method towards running POS'ses. Then again, I'm not generally involved in pos fuelling, so what do I know?
3) RORQUAL. Am I the only one who thinks that the rorqual should be able to use the fuel pellet blueprint and transform the commodities + isotopes into the required form? They would EXCELL at this task and would make them the glorious capital industrial ships they need to be. Nowadays they are used for mining bonuses and hauling (By compression or by cargo expanders), allowing them to use these bpo's would make them damn useful for 0.0 alliance logistics.
1) Ice is mined with rorqual on standby for compression and bonuses.
2) Ice blocks are refined at outpost.
3) Rorqual produces fuel pellets.
4) Haulers travel between rorqual and POS'ses to fuel them.
Perhaps if you allow commodities to be build, the rorqual could be involved on that front as well, where minerals + ice products are used to manufacture commodities that can then be used by a POS or rorqual to produce fuel pellets.
*shrugs* Not certain if any of that is feasible, but getting Rorquals more involved in the actual industry as opposed to using them as cheaper jump freighters sounds like fun to me.
----------------------
 |
Alexis Corban
The Nietzian Way
Hydra Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.04.04 22:27:00 -
[37]
That is the suck. For many reasons
1- you need to pay for a BPO, the ME research on it, and the Time Efficiency research as well
2- instead of just getting the fuels you need as you need them, you need all of them at once
3- there'll be a waiting time between getting the fuel and putting it in, as you'll need you get it manufactured
4- Goodbye to all the manufacturing slots in T-Z, everyone will be too busy using that for fuel to allow people to build ships and mods
5- Increased cost of fuel... the ice mats and the commodities will be the same sell price, so you add the price of manufacturing to the cost now, and, if you buy the fuel in Jita instead of mine your own and haul your own, expect a markup on the fuel
6- Have multiple racial towers, well now you'll need multiple BPOs in addition to the racial isotopes
7- Some towers would end up using MORE fuel (per the dev)
Good sides
1- new marketable item
2- only have to remember X fuel, not X isotopes, X robotics, X whatevers
Hmmm... We're not saving time nor money, we're only cutting down on the math involved (for those without the POS fuel calculator), in a game where everyone does math, has spreadsheets, and has EveFit fits everywhere I'm not to worried about that. I mean, what's next, Reducing the minerals into one bulk item so I don't have to count each mineral in my ship building???
I don't want the price of my dreadnought and black op's fuels to rise and to lose what little manufacturing slots are available in player owned outposts just because someone doesn't want to do math.
 |
Alexis Corban
The Nietzian Way
Hydra Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.04.04 22:29:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Victor Ivanov
3) RORQUAL. Am I the only one who thinks that the rorqual should be able to use the fuel pellet blueprint and transform the commodities + isotopes into the required form? They would EXCELL at this task and would make them the glorious capital industrial ships they need to be. Nowadays they are used for mining bonuses and hauling (By compression or by cargo expanders), allowing them to use these bpo's would make them damn useful for 0.0 alliance logistics.
1) Ice is mined with rorqual on standby for compression and bonuses.
2) Ice blocks are refined at outpost.
3) Rorqual produces fuel pellets.
4) Haulers travel between rorqual and POS'ses to fuel them.
Perhaps if you allow commodities to be build, the rorqual could be involved on that front as well, where minerals + ice products are used to manufacture commodities that can then be used by a POS or rorqual to produce fuel pellets.
*shrugs* Not certain if any of that is feasible, but getting Rorquals more involved in the actual industry as opposed to using them as cheaper jump freighters sounds like fun to me.
Requiring Rorqs to be involved in the process would make the prices of both Rorqs and the Fuel skyrocket, and put POSes out of the reach of many small corps and alliances.
|
Traeon
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.04.04 22:30:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Maaku
Making the isotopes part of the fuel units makes for unnecessary complications with regard to manufacture/logistics.
Keep it simple:
NPCs sell fuel units which replace the Uranium/Oxygen/MechParts/Coolant/Robotics.
You fuel the tower with fuel units, the appropriate isotope, heavy water, liquid ozone, and (where necessary) charters.
Much easier all around, without fundamentally changing the shape of POS logistics, requiring new blueprints to buy/research, or imposing new demand on manufacturing.
This. Any production steps would only complicate things for the buyer (if he manufactures them himself) or more expensive (if he buys from a reseller).
|
Victor Ivanov
The Fated
Odyssey.
|
Posted - 2008.04.04 22:44:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Alexis Corban
Originally by: Victor Ivanov
3) RORQUAL. Am I the only one who thinks that the rorqual should be able to use the fuel pellet blueprint and transform the commodities + isotopes into the required form? They would EXCELL at this task and would make them the glorious capital industrial ships they need to be. Nowadays they are used for mining bonuses and hauling (By compression or by cargo expanders), allowing them to use these bpo's would make them damn useful for 0.0 alliance logistics.
1) Ice is mined with rorqual on standby for compression and bonuses.
2) Ice blocks are refined at outpost.
3) Rorqual produces fuel pellets.
4) Haulers travel between rorqual and POS'ses to fuel them.
Perhaps if you allow commodities to be build, the rorqual could be involved on that front as well, where minerals + ice products are used to manufacture commodities that can then be used by a POS or rorqual to produce fuel pellets.
*shrugs* Not certain if any of that is feasible, but getting Rorquals more involved in the actual industry as opposed to using them as cheaper jump freighters sounds like fun to me.
Requiring Rorqs to be involved in the process would make the prices of both Rorqs and the Fuel skyrocket, and put POSes out of the reach of many small corps and alliances.
I did not mean to imply for it to be a required component of the process, rather an alternative, that works just as well (or perhaps has some added efficiency over standard manufacturing slots to justify the cost of the rorqual).
Not sure, it's just an idea for possble new uses that the rorqual could employ.
----------------------
|
|
GreGh Rakrot
Naughty 40
Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.04.04 22:48:00 -
[41]
Edited by: GreGh Rakrot on 04/04/2008 22:48:35
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Is this something youÆd like to see ingame or should we shelve the idea?
Although I appriciate the effort from CCP to try and reduce time sink that are POSs this is bad idea. People said it all already why this is so, im just adding my vote to "NO" since DEVs are asking for opinions. But that doesnt mean POSs dont need over-haul (fuel, UI, more specific roles, ...).
Originally by: Maaku
Making the isotopes part of the fuel units makes for unnecessary complications with regard to manufacture/logistics.
Keep it simple:
NPCs sell fuel units which replace the Uranium/Oxygen/MechParts/Coolant/Robotics.
You fuel the tower with fuel units, the appropriate isotope, heavy water, liquid ozone, and (where necessary) charters.
Much easier all around, without fundamentally changing the shape of POS logistics, requiring new blueprints to buy/research, or imposing new demand on manufacturing.
CCP if you do this ... <3, and Maaku for bringing up this idea.
This way POSs are still ISK sinks as intented, but become less of a TIME sink which really shouldn't be, in the end this is a game not work.
And if you want to further ease our suffering, make Fuel Units you buy from NPCs small in volume.
So DEVs/CCP ... no extra steps, we need LESS steps, LESS time wasted with POSs (not saying it should be easy but easier then now) but with same ISK sink.
|
Smokie McLottapot
Keepers Of The Gate
|
Posted - 2008.04.04 23:24:00 -
[42]
This will simply add another element to an already over-complcated process. This is not needed, why make it harder and longer of a process to fuel towers? What's next, fuel pellets don't fit in a hauler, and must be shuttled in? Come on guys, if you really need something to do that bad, fix drones, or lag, or jita!
|
Midshipman
|
Posted - 2008.04.04 23:32:00 -
[43]
I manage a dozen large towers and about a half dozen small towers. I handle everything from the purchasing of fuels, to arranging their transportation, to their actual placement in the towers. I've never once been concerned about the "complexity" of having 8 different types of fuel (5 npc, 3 ice product) being required by towers. All it takes is a few minutes setting up a spread-sheet or downloading someone's pre-made starbase API fuel tracker and then you barely even have to think about the various fuel levels.
The only part that is even slighty tricky is sourcing the materials in empire, and I don't see this proposed change as helping in that area. You will have two options, source your fuel rods from a 3rd party, or build your own fuel rods and continue sourcing the fuel rod components as before. The first option is marginally simpler, but will cost you a premium, and you can already essentially do this by buying all your fuel components at a hub like Jita. The second option doesn't save you any money over the current system, but adds 2 whole new layers to the process of fueling towers. Not only will you have to research BPs and manage fuel rod production, but you will have to find a central location to do your fuel rod construction, haul components there, and then later haul the fuel rods down to your towers.
I currently operate on a budget, so I prefer to scout out various regions in high-sec and locate good deals on npc fuels. Currently, if I find a good deal I can buy in bulk, and then haul everying down to my fuel cache piecemeal. Under the new proposed system, I'd have to first haul everything to an empire staging area, collect it until I have every type of fuel (restricting my options on bargain hunting), then come over, kick off production jobs, come back later and haul it away. Things are even more complicated if you actually harvest ice products out in 0.0. You either have to haul the racial isotope back to empire, or you have to tie up precious manufacturing slots out in 0.0.
Unless the Fuel Rod BPOs are fast enough to pump out a month of fuel for a large tower in half a day, I would absolutely hate to be forced to tie up production lines in 0.0 outposts. Additionally, unless the fuel rods are significantly smaller than their component fuels, my hauling workload is likely to go up, not down. Even making them more compact isn't a perfect solution because then you [CCP] would have to tweak the fuel bay sizes on towers.
On the whole this entire proposal seems riddled with potential problems, creates more workload for CCP's programmers and balance team, and offers a very marginal benefit for the players, even if perfectly executed. POS mechanics definitely deserve an upgrade, but changing the packaging of the fuel components is not helpful.
I strongly urge CCP not to implement this proposed change.
---
*snip* - Not really an appropriate signature, please email mods@ccpgames if you have any questions - Tallan |
Midshipman
|
Posted - 2008.04.04 23:39:00 -
[44]
If fuel rods were a sold by NPC corporations like many of the component fuels (and didn't include the racial isotope), that would remove most of my opposition to the fuel rod idea. However, you still have the issue of properly balancing prices with the current system. As it is now, if my primary concern is minimizing cost, I have the option of buying my robotics in one region, and my oxygen in another. With a unified NPC fuel rod, you have less potential to bargain hunt the different types and buy them in out-of-ratio quantities depending on what deals are available.
However, the cost of tower fuel is mostly in the ice product fuels, so unifying the npc components wouldn't have a huge impact on the price of operating towers.
---
*snip* - Not really an appropriate signature, please email mods@ccpgames if you have any questions - Tallan |
hydraSlav
Synergy Evolved
Daisho Syndicate
|
Posted - 2008.04.05 00:20:00 -
[45]
I love the idea
==
Above comments are my personal views
Oveur >Local shouldn't be a tactical tool, it's for chat
 |
Ell Savant
A Cell
Delta.Green
|
Posted - 2008.04.05 02:10:00 -
[46]
I personally think that this actually complicates matters by adding another step, but it might provide some market opportunities, so eh. But:
Originally by: Wesley Baird
Wish the pellets would be generic, so with the bpo's you could use any isotope and produce fuel for any tower...that would save time.
This is defiantly an important suggestion. If you go through with this, I recommend strongly against racial fuel rod types. The rods should only be the commodities, with the isotopes (ice product) being separate. That way fuel rods are generic, and you put in the isotopes for the racial |