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Buying ISK for real world money is bad! New Dev Blog by Grimmi

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Author	Topic
Masazak	Posted - 2008.04.11 11:57:00 - [151] Edited by: Masazak on 11/04/2008 11:58:44 Originally by: GM Grimmi Edited by: GM Grimmi on 08/04/2008 13:25:52 Hi, Macro-mission runners is exactly what I mean. Sorry for the mix-up :) Grimmi, can you please edit the blog and change 'mission runners' to 'macro mission runners'. It is important. Thanks
Svekke Minmatar Frequent Flyers Tartarus Coalition	Posted - 2008.04.11 12:04:00 - [152] Sophia, I'm pretty sure suicide runners don't just blow up their ravens if there's nothing to gain. 1. Insurance, 2. The loot that's dropped from the macroers. I'm still wanting to see a suicide runner blowing up someone with an empty cargohold :)
Gibmundur Amarr Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.04.11 12:10:00 - [153] Hypocrites.
Arlon Magistar	Posted - 2008.04.11 12:28:00 - [154] Originally by: Svekke I'm still wanting to see a suicide runner blowing up someone with an empty cargohold :) Happens all the time, unfortunately. I personally lost a perfectly good Wreathe that way about 3 weeks ago -- gate-ganked in 0.5 on my way to pick up an item I had contracted to myself. (Had an alt who needed items moved from point A to point B; the alt cannot fly a hauler, ergo I contracted the item to my primary to move it with him.) The ganker made the classic mistake of podding his kill; the last thing I saw before waking up in a new clone back at Elgoi was a CONCORD warning to the ganker announcing that, basically, he was now dead meat. Was this a player aiming for macros, or simply a pirate too foolish to do his deeds a safe distance from CONCORD intervention? I'll never know. If it be the former -- someone needs to be more careful not to pop real players in haulers. If it be the latter ... meh. I came back a few days later and got my item anyways. POint being, such things DO happen. Empty haulers do get ganked. Just FYI.
Arlon Magistar	Posted - 2008.04.11 12:36:00 - [155] Originally by: Sophia Stormbringer Maybe it is possible to remove concord protection from these macroers? :) PLease...PLEASE do. If it can be done, Sophia's idea is an excellent one. Do that, and I'll bring out my Cyclone to hunt them down personally. I'd LOVE to get guns on some of those idiots stripping all the high-sec belts. Upping rat damage isn;t a bad idea either. Real players can simply rekit our ships to deal with the rats. Macroers will be in a world of hurt. Another excellent idea.
Agent Li Caldari Galactic Defence Consortium BLACKHAWK FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.04.11 13:13:00 - [156] I've been reporting every ISK selling spammer I've seen. I wish that all of this isk buying would go away - it's really ****ing me off to see a 5 day old character with 500 million isk flying around... ------------------ Let me show you around. That's my lab table, and this is my workstool. And over there is my intergalactic spaceship. And here's where I keep assorted lengths of wire.
Jet Collins Dynamic Endeavors	Posted - 2008.04.11 13:55:00 - [157] Edited by: Jet Collins on 11/04/2008 13:56:07 Sorry if I have been out of the loop for a while on some of this stuff but I was wondering why this is in the new patch. The overseer structure from the mission "Angel Extravaganza" has been removed and the mission re-enabled. Thanks PS I can't view pages 2-5??? Dynamic Endeavors is now Recuiting.!! Contact me in game for deatails about the corp. Mostly a PvE corp, with Jump clones avaiale in Empire and 0.0.
Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2008.04.11 14:01:00 - [158] Originally by: Sophia Stormbringer Maybe it is possible to remove concord protection from these macroers? :) Great idea... but how can you do this and not pull the protection from the rest of the players? I would love to see the numbers of accounts banned by CCP, the Numbers of ISK taken out of the system... but care must be taken to punish the guilty... not the poor guy next to him trying to feed his POS or get enough Isogen to build that next ship... --------*****-------- Learn and be informed, because a Politicians worst nightmare is an informed voter... So choose your CSM Candidates wisely
TeknoRob Plus	Posted - 2008.04.11 14:08:00 - [159] Originally by: Agent Li it's really **ing me off to see a 5 day old character with 500 million isk flying around... What difference does it make? a 5-day old character can't fly ** all anyway... _ Wanted: Schr÷dinger's cat Dead AND Alive
Smilla Snow	Posted - 2008.04.11 14:09:00 - [160] Hmm, the biggest Problem in EvE are the Macros. I'm shure CCP does not like RMT because they dont get a fee for it ;-), but to be honest - Macros are the bigger Problem. Try to catch the Macros and your RMT Problem is near gone!

Agent Li Caldari Galactic Defence Consortium BLACKHAWK FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.04.11 14:09:00 - [161] Originally by: Hamfast Originally by: Sophia Stormbringer Maybe it is possible to remove concord protection from these macroers? :) Great idea... but how can you do this and not pull the protection from the rest of the players? I would love to see the numbers of accounts banned by CCP, the Numbers of ISK taken out of the system... but care must be taken to punish the guilty... not the poor guy next to him trying to feed his POS or get enough Isogen to build that next ship... Investigate the macroers first. Then set their security status to -10, and zero out their wallets. ------------------ Let me show you around. That's my lab table, and this is my workstool. And over there is my intergalactic spaceship. And here's where I keep assorted lengths of wire.
Smilla Snow	Posted - 2008.04.11 14:22:00 - [162] and disable trade, contract and market buttons.....
TalaLawi	Posted - 2008.04.11 15:46:00 - [163] It's bad enough that one has to watch for these things in the "real world", but to have to contend with it in Eve, which is for many, a game for people to get away from the greed and corruption of the real world and to have a simple break from such 'darkness' and simply have some innocent enjoyment. When I first learned of this level of corruption in Eve I felt disappointed that it even exist's within something as simple as this game ( not that this game is simple ). "Buying ISK for real money IS against the EULA and will be punished appropriately" would be a good way to raise awareness of these problems." "this devblog should be advertised at logon too. Ignorance is not an excuse, but it is a factor when people want to buy isk. Education is a good weapon against RMT." "I am glad to hear you are taking steps to stop the RMT by not only punishing those you catch buying ISK, but by the mass banning of the farmers and macros that are collecting the ISK..." I support CCP doing whatever they need to, to stop this completely. Get read of the scammers, cheaters, and their kind. We don't need them mucking up Eve. Get read of them all, and use whatever means it takes. Lets make this game stand out for its control over dishonest individuals who just want to spoil it for others. The real world has enough of that. "This is what I really love about Eve and CCP - Zero-tolerance politics against RMT !!!" "think it is great that CCP is going to do something about Macro Farmers and Macro Mission People.. they dont deserve to be involved with people who play for the fun and the challenge of Eve. Eve is so open to everyone and all you need is to get passed the learning curve and you can make it in the game the legit way. by running missions , minning and salvaging. ive been setting my schedule to all of these options...." "All in all, I believe that CCP is doing a wonderful job. I also believe that, no matter what anyone says, they have their customers interests at heart, if only because keeping your customers happy is in the interest of higher profit margins. They must be successful because when I log in, they consistantly show 20,000 to 40,000 players online. People must be happy or they wouldn't be playing the game.Anyway, cheers to CCP and all they are doing for us!" I have learned from all the comments posted, thanks to everyone who has taken the time to do so. Those of us who are honest players, lets continue to play for fun, support CC, and help all we can to get rid of all the creeps who for whatever reason want to prey on others.
KineTiK KINGS OF EDEN	Posted - 2008.04.11 16:13:00 - [164] Quote: When you buy an ETC and then sell it for ISK via the Secure ETC Trading System you are directly contributing to the growth of EVE as the code will be applied to an account and someone will be using it to play. Some players do not have the means to pay for their subscriptions with credit cards or similar and the Secure ETC Trading System helps them pay and play. The economics are quite different as well since wealth is redistributed between active members of the community rather than injected into the game. That logic is flawed because: When one sells a GTC, Person A transfers isk to person B. When one buys isk off ebay, Person A transfers isk to person B. In both cases person B spends real money. The only difference being that in the second scenario the money doesn't go to CCP. Where person A got all the isk from is another story. Either through macroing, farming 24 hours a day or buying it from other isk sellers. It doesn't matter. In the end it is isk being transferred for whatever reason and it's not being 'injected' as the post says. Obviously buying isk in such a way encourages the isk sellers to continue with their dodgy methods to obtain isk. It wouldn't even surprise me if there are people selling tons of GTC's for isk, then selling that isk on ebay for a small profit and buying more GTC's. CCP gets paid, isk sellers get paid, guy with GTC is happy, guy who bought isk is happy. Yey, everybody wins. If CCP is serious about stopping people from becoming far richer than they would possibly be had they followed normal game mechanics then they simply have to stop the GTC for isk thing. Yo momma so fat she got more chins than a Hong Kong phonebook.
Spumantii	Posted - 2008.04.11 16:14:00 - [165] I can't ***** believe it. "There are also the macro miners and mission runners, complex farmers and assorted rabble of this sort that causes general nuisance and keeps the regular players from being able to enjoy EVE as they would like. Price of minerals, ore, ice, implants and so on is driven down by this kind of activity and thus ways for normal players to make ISK are effectively ruined. Finally, the RMT element will not hesitate to commit real world crimes, such as credit card fraud or theft, to keep their business running." MISSION RUNNERS? You now have a problem with one of the few things about this game I still like and would lump in half the eve population into a statement bashing a bunch of scumbags? Are you out of your tree?? Why haven't you changed your post? That takes the *** cake, I am sick and tired of CCP making a piece of out of this game and making it as unfriendly as possible, and insulting the people who ACTUALLY KEEP this game running. You make it painfully obvious your intentions for this game include none of the 'rabble' in hi sec you just want to have a more stressful, annoying, frustrating and less predictable, less stable game than counterstrike since it's all going to be pvp. 'Rabble'. I have spent a looong *** time getting my standings to where they are to be called 'Rabble' by ccp and be lumped in with scumbags. ** you. You've alienated thousands of player and now you can include me in that list. Screw you, I am done with you.
KineTiK KINGS OF EDEN	Posted - 2008.04.11 16:20:00 - [166] Edited by: KineTiK on 11/04/2008 16:20:30 Originally by: Spumantii I can't ******* believe it. rant... See page 1. Somewhere halfway down... Yo momma so fat she got more chins than a Hong Kong phonebook.
Spumantii	Posted - 2008.04.11 16:22:00 - [167] i just did, and don't care the post is bad enough and it won't be changed, furthermore what the hell is wrong with doing complexes to get your invention material?? If you (CCP) don't like something then STOP the implementation- NOT THE PLAYERS
Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2008.04.11 16:24:00 - [168] Originally by: Agent Li Originally by: Hamfast Originally by: Sophia Stormbringer Maybe it is possible to remove concord protection from these macroers? :) Great idea... but how can you do this and not pull the protection from the rest of the players? I would love to see the numbers of accounts banned by CCP, the Numbers of ISK taken out of the system... but care must be taken to punish the guilty... not the poor guy next to him trying to feed his POS or get enough Isogen to build that next ship... Investigate the macroers first. Then set their security status to -10, and zero out their wallets. Running Macro's is against the rules, instead of going through the bother of setting their standing to -10, just ban them... Bans can be reversed if the punished is found to not have been breaking the rules, banned accounts "Items" are effectivly removed from play... but not lost if the ban is reversed... Setting their standing to -10 gets them popped and podded... then come to find out they did not break any rules...now what? I am all for the bans, break rules, get banned... seems about perfect to me... Making a player (even a macro-farming RMT Supplier) into a pop up target is a bad idea. --------*****-------- Learn and be informed, because a Politicians worst nightmare is an informed voter... So choose your CSM Candidates wisely
sliver 0xD exiles.	Posted - 2008.04.11 17:37:00 - [169] pointless propoganda by ccp. first of all this was known to everyone a year ago, that the eve comunity is already damaged by the illigal activities of RMT, macro npcer, macro miner and plex farmers. and i find it stupid that the fair part of the eve comunitie should fix the illigal comunity while its ccp's job to keep the game fair and legal. those that buy illigal isk will probably not report themselfs anyway. and i have been reporting allot of the illigal activity in eve for a every long time and with no results at all. (honestly whoever wrote this propoganda should ask back the 30min of his life becouse it was pointless :P) ccp should change there aprouch and take hard action. every report of illigal acivity in eve reguarding RMT, macro npcing, macro mining and complex farming should be taken verry serious and should result in atleast 1 ban every time a report comes in! ccp should show balls and takes some responsiblity. --- Somebody needs a hug!
DOCBOMO	Posted - 2008.04.11 20:45:00 - [170] New ERA, why not go for a transposition of EVE ISK to challenge currnecy trading. Sad if in 20 years you find out EVE ISK could have been among the first new major currencies i.e. changing the ú.$ etc sytem, of course you would need more populations (e.g. all of France)to Log on. Just my thoughts from some one who started on ELITE on my old Spectrum and speculated in 20 years we could do what we do in Eve!! Why not let us all mine ad infinitum when off line? DO NOT CONSTRAIN YOUR HORIZONS BY CURRENT ECONOMICS> LOOK BEYOND and see what might be achieved. DOC

Juno Azzabat	Posted - 2008.04.11 21:13:00 - [171] Yeah CCP please stop the GTC for isk thing!!!
Cetrius	Posted - 2008.04.11 21:26:00 - [172] Here Here! <3 Dev's
TaxmanX Caldari A little Of Everything	Posted - 2008.04.12 01:38:00 - [173] Although I applaud CCP's efforts to clean the galaxy of "Evil" (I am SO SICK of ISK spammers, ISK mailers, ISK guild applications) there ARE some huge problems concerning their methodology in doing so. We have a relatively new corp-member who has been working VERY hard and dedicated MANY hours to character development, ship combat, mining, and working with the market. It is the latter that recently got his account tapped to the NEGATIVE ISK (-350mil to be exact) by CCP. Seems their tracking methodology has fingered and PUNISHED an innocent person. What happened? Well he happened to pick up items on the exchange for a very cheap price. These items were being "sold" at the price for someone who purchased ISK to pick up and re-sell to "launder" the ISK or to sell on their own in exchange for real currency. I am sure the seller was a bit ****ed when the buyer was someone other than they expected! Doesn't really matter - that he was just seeing something show up on the market for cheap and then selling them himself. He was labeled by CCP as a "buyer" or "launderer" because he happened to purchase the items (gee who wouldn't?) and then punished by putting him far in the negative "to teach him a lesson" they said in his GM responses. So they didn't just take away his so called "ill-gotten-gains" they opted as per this new policy to set him FAR into the negative! Nobody really bothered to pull his recent manufacturing history to see he was making money by building things and mining the belts to pebbles to do it. Oh well, I bet they assume he was a Chinese Macro miner doing that using bots as well or something. Give me a break, I know this guy personally - he lives in Utah and is one of the most honest/sincere guys I know. :-/ He has been actively playing EVE since I introduced it to him in January, he even purchased a second account! He was aware that folks (as in all MMO's these days) were selling ISK, but he had no reason to do that because he was using the money HE EARNED by trading, mining, and mission running. CCP HAS the logs and data to see that - but NO... since he purchased items from an ISK seller.. he was INSTANTLY GUILTY (without any looking into his history). So much for ZERO TOLERANCE... how about ZERO detective work to go along with it? So just a warning to all - in his behalf, don't buy anything that looks like a GOOD deal - because it will likely get your account put into the negative JUST BECAUSE YOU PURCHASED IT! It doesn't matter you HAD 800 mil before you even purchased it.. obviously you ARE A BAD PLAYER!
Sophia Stormbringer Lightning Technologies	Posted - 2008.04.12 11:14:00 - [174] Edited by: Sophia Stormbringer on 12/04/2008 11:14:58 Wow, he got punished for accepting a _public_ contract?! Petition it and point to the fact that it was a public and not private contract. It cannot be that anyone who accepts a public contract can be accused of laundry.
Johnny Yuma	Posted - 2008.04.12 12:56:00 - [175] This has probably been recommended before, but why not just automatically kick EVERYONE who's an NPC corp for 30+ days into a special NPC corp that can be wardec'd for free. Real players could get out, by joining a player corp, or making their own, but at least then, the macro miners would be fair targets.
Enosh	Posted - 2008.04.12 16:14:00 - [176] Originally by: DOCBOMO New ERA, why not go for a transposition of EVE ISK to challenge currnecy trading. Sad if in 20 years you find out EVE ISK could have been among the first new major currencies i.e. changing the ú.$ etc sytem, of course you would need more populations (e.g. all of France)to Log on. Just my thoughts from some one who started on ELITE on my old Spectrum and speculated in 20 years we could do what we do in Eve!! Why not let us all mine ad infinitum when off line? DO NOT CONSTRAIN YOUR HORIZONS BY CURRENT ECONOMICS> LOOK BEYOND and see what might be achieved. DOC Ok in answer to this, which is in the same spirit of my post too, i will blog on here about all things EVE and what, in terms of economics, GTCs are. Introduction Even as entertainment, MMO's are still taboo. Correlations of MMO players in the 20-30 bracket and their RL prosperity will for certain show that in most instances the RL(real life)-MMOgame swap is a losing trade, in RLM (Real Life Money). There are exceptions, yet in the end, as things stand (in life but in EVE too) people choose the world they live in anyway. MMO games just dont pay players bills. Are MMO games in a position to do so? Yes. How? How do GTC feature into this? Part 1 - The indirect way - Making money by participating in building and advancing the game's interface WoW was the first game, imho, that, in a large scale, succeded in providing for user input. They allowed through an API such as EVE has, players with basic programming skills to evolve the feel and control of the user-game interface. It was a gamble, and it paid off, for Blizzard. There are numerous a site that offer WoW add-ons. They are predominantly free downloads with a donation option. I can't tell you how many donations the creators of these add-ons have received, yet I am sure they have. Some have become standards for the game in the game's expansions. Blizzard provided for a basic user interface, a shell if you like, which is adequate, and laid its development on the community. The line between interface and control is a fine line in certain cases. Knowledge is power, so is information, so, addons that remember for you, or alert you to critical events i.e. filter information through a priority list, are an advantage. Control sequences are an advantage too. Buff up + attack, simple enough an example. Saves me a button press. Yet, the combination of these information and control addons is where you fine line lies. An addon which would provide a player with an 'unfair' advantage over the shell that Blizzard provided was beyond what Blizzard could deal with. Yet its not beyond the realm of possibility to automate or provide for formulation of tactics in, interactions through the game-player interface. There are currently games in development that give directional attack and defence options. Age of Conan anyone? Then there is Peter Molyneux who's idea is to use the object oriented nature of the environment in conjunction with player interaction to provide predefined sequences and interactions which maximise the locals potential, enhance and inspire through the game experience eg if, in the game environment, theres a toolbox on a table, pressing the attack button, will pick it up and throw it, in the same way that a charachter who has a pole for a weapon will try to maintain distance, while a knife holder will manouver to close that distance. Weapon category affecting optimal strike distance. So how abt providing the basic elements and let us sequence them into dynamic scripts, like the sequences in Martial Arts par example. All this though is not really making money from the game itself. Its making money by enhancing the game's environment. In the end the numero uno interaction an MMO game provides, its comparative advantage, is player interaction and that, Blizzard got down to a gem ;)
Enosh	Posted - 2008.04.12 16:14:00 - [177] Part 2 - Making money by playing the game. Now lets look at Second Life. Havent played it, I have read about it and about a collapse of its exchange rate to RL money. Why did the exchange rate collapse? Well, you can buy virtual space in the same way as you can go on sites that sell lunar real estate. Similarly but less so than lunar surface which is tangible, a virtuals space's worth is realated to what you can do with it and amongst other things, how you do what you do and how long it takes you to do it. It is obvious, that if i can trade with real money in a game, i dont need game money, so the exchange rate drops to zero. Economics, they say is about demand and supply. Obviously for someone who has some money and time to spare its no feat to go in and buy stuff. So allowing for purchasing of game objects will soon lead to collapse of their price, simple because with a few keystrokes more can be created by the game's designers. So if 100 of real money is worth 4 of a certain 'rare' game object, by creating 4 more, that object is now worth 12.5 instead of 25. To see this, you have to appraise the value of the object from the designers point of view. Sentimentals aside, once done and paying, it was worth zero for him to create 4 copies, and there were 4 in circulation. I come in and buy 4 for 100, taking them out of circulation. The designer then puts another 4 in. If I were to sell my 4 for game-money, there are now 8 in circulation. Real money price has just droped to 12.5 a piece. No need to point that the game-money value also drops unless you take game-money out of circulation, by say making belt/mission rats harder for a while, so on aggregate runners earn less / or buy more ships. So the power lies with real money. If you do allow for a full exchange facility you lose your game currency, you somehow would like to allow for people to earn money from other people but through playing the game. Laundering and Patriot act aside, you have to make sure you are in a position to offer the game through real money yet if you free yourself from the players, your are all the more uncertain of your games worth. Time again is of the essence as are friends few and valued. So lets accept that and go from game to gametime. It is still the game though, the security you enjoy is guarded by the game's elements, for example, the skill-time relation. Will someday my charachter be worth more than I paid for him, inflation adjusted too? Yes, that is a fine measure of success, yet, is it beacuse there will be less people left in the game? So aim to adjust for that as well, as shall we, by offering out to other players should we opt to leave the game. It is safe and prudent to charge for the experience only. To go beyond though, there lies the prize. So a GTC is worth real money. How much gamemoney is a GTC worth? If you were to allow for ingame GTC buying and selling through the Market Browser it is still for gamemoney, no worries there. Then again what would you really call it? What is the EVE universe made of? Is it ore? Is it ships? Is it skills? What would it mean if GTCs were available in the ingame market browser and their value rose? What would it mean if GTC value fell. In each case its a function of supply and demand. If the value rises, there is either a reduction is supply of GTCs or more people demanding them. If it drops its either increased supply of GTCs or less people demanding them. Say each person gets a GTMC, a GameTimeMinuteCard worth a months play less a max 1 hour daily downtime and given the congestion in Jita, would you say it would be of benefit to charge by minutes played? Alternatively would you rather train skills faster when logged off? Could I pay for faster skill training through GTCs? how much faster? and please do keep it non-liner. Would you charge more for game time in Jita? How much would people pay for game time in Jita?
Makula Trantor	Posted - 2008.04.12 17:09:00 - [178] There should be a way that pilots can report farmers - have it verified and then have a filter on the star map to show system locations and number of farmers there on the map in real time statistics - then us REAL pilots could go out and kill em dead all the time. It would be like killing rats except these would be farmers. Heck create agent missions that put bounties out on them. There would need to be a way to prevent abuse or appeal if you were wrongly placed as a farmer with a system like this.
Annabella Kora	Posted - 2008.04.12 17:30:00 - [179] "Help us raise awareness about this whole issue and together we can change the world of EVE for the better!" WRONG WRONG WRONG YOU KNOW who is trading money -> "[...], and we remove tens of billions of illegally purchased ISK every day." Just Ban them, BAN BAN BAN FFS
Pooka Caldari United Space Aillance USA	Posted - 2008.04.12 17:45:00 - [180] Edited by: Pooka on 12/04/2008 17:46:10 HEY!! 7 pages and no one has asked a question about this: "Corporations, or even Alliances, should not be able to fuel their wars and other activities like they have done in a number of cases with ISK bought for real world money." WHO? Which Corporations and did you ban them or not!! I can guess which ones you are talking about. CCP comment please.

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