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Polnoch
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Posted - 2008.04.12 19:27:00 -
[181]
Edited by: Polnoch on 12/04/2008 19:30:02
The point of this discussion is what?
CCP picks whom and how they want to punish people - and they do it.
There isn't anything anyone says here that will change anything.
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TaxmanX
Caldari
A little Of Everything
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Posted - 2008.04.12 19:29:00 -
[182]
 Originally by: Sophia Stormbringer
Wow, he got punished for accepting a _public_ contract?!
Petition it and point to the fact that it was a public and not private contract. It cannot be that anyone who accepts a public contract can be accused of laundry.
Indeed - he did petition, found out it was the GM's that took all his hard-earned ISK.. not a keylogging hacker (that he first thought). The GM's told him about all of this - which was news to him. All he did was purchase goods at a great price - how would he know they were for supposed to be for somone else (who HAD purchased the ISK)? Because HE purchased the goods.. that made him guilty (no investigation) and then he was punished for it.
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Beaukro
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Posted - 2008.04.12 21:29:00 -
[183]
One of the first things that strikes a new player (after learning the rules) is the fact that the game is corrupt. When a new player can line the side of their screen with a list of people selling 'in game money' something is definitely amiss. By the time that same player attains the ability to mine ice with a 'Retriever' He/She encounters the Ice Fields or (Macro Mountains) Five minutes of observation is enough to observe how deep the corruption goes. Corruption feeds off the honest. So if you are unable or unwilling to match dishonest players dollar for dollar, and CCP refuses to correct the problem, there will come a time when you pick up your marbles or game controller and seek greener pastures.
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J Valkor
Invicta.
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Posted - 2008.04.12 21:57:00 -
[184]
A. A lot of people do not understand the difference between buying GTC's for ISK and buying cash for ISK. You cannot make a living on one of those things.
B. A lot of people want to justify their own behavior with a bunch of BS about how CCP is evil or some such nonsense. This ain't the real world, this is CCP's world. If you do not like their rules find another game.
C. A lot of other people want to scare the crap out of normal players by making up horror stories of how banning ISK sellers/buyers goes bad. With stories that are blatantly false is the best part.
D. Inflation in EVE is the lowest of any long running MMO I can think of. In a lot of instances items have gotten cheaper since release.
Whichever, no amount of complaints or crying will change CCP on these meta-decisions. Good thing, too.
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Narf Commandude
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Posted - 2008.04.12 23:41:00 -
[185]
Man I didn't really know that RMT was such a big problem.
I must admit that i've poked around a few sites, and thought about RMT for myself, but after reading the full effects on the game about it, i will never give it a second thought.
thanks for the insight! |
Druadan
Aristotle Enterprises
Synchr0nicity
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Posted - 2008.04.13 00:56:00 -
[186]
Edited by: Druadan on 13/04/2008 00:55:51
Will we ever see the GTC-for-ISK market removed from the game? In my opinion this is only slightly less worse for the game than the macroing-and-what-have-you ISK selling. It takes the cold-harsh level playing ground of EVE and turns it into a plastic-fantastic game of 'who's richest in real life'.
Earlier in the week I bought two GTCs, one for each of my account, forgetting that this account had auto-renewed with three months of gametime. So I sold the spare GTC on the GTC Marketplace. I feel like I'm using dirty money, as my real-life disposable income is deciding how affluent I am in the game. It's just not right.
-Dru |
LTcyberT1000
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.04.13 02:30:00 -
[187]
Well, i think the main reason why EVE gets so lots of isk sellers/macro miners/etc is because of too much crowd in same EVE universe. Comparing with 3 years ago to ~5000 players and 3500 solar systems with ~35 000 players and same 3500 systems is a big difference. For normal player there is not enough space in these days. Try to look percentage not mined out belts with better ore than veldspar and scordite and i am sure it will be >90% of total belts wiped out right before downtime. Same is with 0.0 systems where people are "sitting" squized in crowds on top of each other.
CCP, player base expanded so much, and it is time to think about opening another EVE galaxy where ALL 40 000 players will fit like it was 3 years ago...
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Anatal Klep
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Posted - 2008.04.13 03:51:00 -
[188]
The blurb on RMT is one of the more disingenuous things I've read lately.
Problem 1: RMT fosters crime outside EVE. OK, but that is none of CCP's business. CCP is a game vendor, not Interpol. In addition, ISK buyers are not the bad guys and don't even know which sellers are bad guys. Caveat emptor.
Problem 2: RMT harms everyone because it messes up the EVE economy. CCP must have slept through Economics 101. This argument is rubbish because the inflation already exists due to cash cows in the game. To increase inflation the ISK must be spent and it doesn't matter if it is spent by the original ISK farmer or someone else making an RMT transfer payment. cash cow = inflation and RMT has nothing to do with that.
Problem 3: RMT encourages macro-play for ISK farming. True. But CCP could stop macro-play any time it wants with a few heuristics on player activities. The interesting question is: why doesn't CCP do that? CCP doesn't because...
Problem 4: ETC is Good -- for CCP! That's because CCP gets extra revenue from players who could not otherwise afford multiple accounts. So the ISK farming is allowed to ensure ETC purchases to finance those accounts through transfer payments from players who do have plenty of RM and want to buy their way into positions. But CCP doesn't get any revenue if those transfer payments are outside the game, so CCP tries to force all such RMT to be through ETCs by making ISK purchasers the bad guys.
[For the record: I don't buy ISK because I already make 9 figures a week trading and manufacturing -- without macros.]
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Anatal Klep
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Posted - 2008.04.13 16:30:00 -
[189]
Originally by: Sophia Stormbringer
Maybe it is possible to remove concord protection from these macroers? :)
It would make some nice outdoor sport, but it also gets the wrong people killed. Back when I was mining people blew up my cans because they thought I was macromining since I had the obvious features: Hulk, hours on end mining out entire belts, NPC corp, etc.. In reality I just had a lot of time on my hands. Macromining is much more reliably detected in software using heuristics on player actions.
Shooting them really doesn't solve the problem anyway. That is done regularly in losec with no noticeable reduction in macromining. Ship insurance is cheap compared to profits and they use alts w/o implants to lose.
Much better is to kill the account. It takes a lot of SP investment to macromine effectively that one doesn't have on trial accounts. So the interesting question is: why doesn't CCP do that? They do, but apparently only on accounts they associate with RMT sales out-of-game.
The reality is that CCP needs the cash cows to support the extra income from GTCs so they don't eliminate cash cows directly, which they could do easily. They just don't want the transfer payments to be external so they go after the offline RMT buyers and sellers.
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Anatal Klep
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Posted - 2008.04.13 17:07:00 -
[190]
Originally by: LTcyberT1000
Well, i think the main reason why EVE gets so lots of isk sellers/macro miners/etc is because of too much crowd in same EVE universe. Comparing with 3 years ago to ~5000 players and 3500 solar systems with ~35 000 players and same 3500 systems is a big difference. For normal player there is not enough space in these days. Try to look percentage not mined out belts with better ore than veldspar and scordite and i am sure it will be >90% of total belts wiped out right before downtime. Same is with 0.0 systems where people are "sitting" squized in crowds on top of each other.
I agree; its a Hot Button for me. In fact, it is worse than that because the active player base is 5X larger who log on at different times. On average there are now almost as many players per region as there were for the entire game originally.
Another problem is that the gap between established positions and noob positions is vastly greater now. The days are long gone when one could make huge profits in T1 gear but the noob needs to grind all the way through T1 to get to T2 gear just to start a career in trade or manufacturing. IMO, that rather pointless initiation is a major factor in the offline RMT market. Noobs have to stare at a mining laser for months or run the same set of PvE missions a gazillion times to get enough ISK to play the game properly.
It took me 10 months to make my first 1b; 10 weeks to make the second; and 4 weeks to make the third. But by then I was still a Minor Leaguer who had just gotten a foot in the door. After 6 months in the game with reasonable skills the noobs still can't do much except be canon fodder in 0.0 wars. Small wonder buying ISK is appealing.
Quote:
CCP, player base expanded so much, and it is time to think about opening another EVE galaxy where ALL 40 000 players will fit like it was 3 years ago...
I agree. The architecture isn't scalable for things like PvP, which is now essentially unplayable for fleet combat because of lag and lost keystrokes. But CCP insists on being odd-man-out in MMORPGs by dismissing the notion of replicated universes.
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Anatal Klep
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Posted - 2008.04.13 17:38:00 -
[191]
Originally by: J Valkor
A. A lot of people do not understand the difference between buying GTC's for ISK and buying cash for ISK. You cannot make a living on one of those things.
Actually a living is made with both. CCP just gets the revenue for GTCs rather than a player. IOW, GTCs are part of CCP's living.
One can also argue that the player also earns a living indirectly. Ultimately GTCs allows players to play EVE when they could not otherwise afford to do so (e.g., additional accounts). In economic terms that is equivalent to a transfer payment from the game to the player's real income -- just like for an non-GTC ISK seller.
Quote:
B. A lot of people want to justify their own behavior with a bunch of BS about how CCP is evil or some such nonsense. This ain't the real world, this is CCP's world. If you do not like their rules find another game.
I don't have a problem with that. What I have a problem with is CCP wrapping their motives in a bunch of sanctimonious nonsense about how what they are doing is for the good of the players when they are really playing hardball with their competition. If they were serious about that they would snip off RMT at its root by clamping down on cash cows. If the cash cow mechanisms were eliminated there wouldn't be an RMT "problem". But they don't because the cash cows fuel their GTC revenue.
Quote:
D. Inflation in EVE is the lowest of any long running MMO I can think of. In a lot of instances items have gotten cheaper since release.
I agree up to a point. The inflation is low for T1 stuff because everyone has BPs and can compete. It is also true for ores/minerals because production is driven by the same technology and player count that drives production (i.e., there is supply/demand balance). But T2 stuff still has rediculously high prices and that is where the ISK ultimately goes. When T2 gear stabilizes, CCP will introduce T3 gear and the inflation will be there.
But note that if you are correct, then CCP's position that RMT inspires macro-play that causes inflation is incorrect. IOW, if there is no inflation in EVE, then macro-play isn't harming the game so that isn't a valid reason for banning external RMT.
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Fleche
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Posted - 2008.04.13 18:10:00 -
[192]
Originally by: Wyn Pharoh
Short of invading [insert EVERY developing nation here], lining up and shooting ALL the ISK farmers worldwide in RL...
I volunteer.
Something important to realize about ISK sellers is that they use stolen credit cards to create accounts. This is the primary reason they are headquartered in countries that either turn a blind eye to CC theft of Westerners or who actively encourage it as a way to "stick it to the Man". Otherwise it would be easy to file a stolen CC complaint with the local authorities and get a nice high-profile set of arrests... not for violating game policies, but for good old-fashioned fraud and theft. But when the local "authorities" are at best indifferent, or more often bribed, options become limited.
IMNSHO, the only way to deal with this is to attack demand. If you buy ISK and are caught, first warning is stripping the account of all assets other than the character, i.e. you're left with a noob-ship witha civilian mining laser. Second offense, the account and everything in it (including the characters and all prepaid time) are removed and the no-refunds-for-expulsion clause invoked.
Zero tolerance for seller-cheaters, zero tolerance for buyer-cheaters. An approved in-game mechanism for extra ISK is available, and if you step out of that boundary, you're toast. People who are offended by this... tough. The rest of us don't want or need them to be here. Besides, what are they going to do about it? Appeal to a court and admit to breaking a EULA and enabling credit card fraud? Go to some other game? There's no other game like EVE out there to go to.
Play fair or get out.
And as for reporting statistics of disciplinary actions, I am all for that. I would also support identification by character name (or even account name) of terminated accounts. There is a precedent: your credit report. When you get a credit card, you explicitly agree to allow disclosure of violation of your agreement with them. This is no different: make it a condition of play that your account name and the cause of your expulsion may be disclosed. Don't like it? You don't get to play. Heck, I'd support that on an industry-wide basis. Create a real-identity database in which cheating and harassment that escalated to expulsion is reported, then other MMO providers could make an informed decision on whether they want to risk taking on a "nomad cheater". Same as a credit rating.
Hmmm. I wonder if there's a business opportunity in being the provider of such a system.
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Anatal Klep
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Posted - 2008.04.13 22:46:00 -
[193]
Quote:
Besides, what are they going to do about it? Appeal to a court and admit to breaking a EULA and enabling credit card fraud? Go to some other game? There's no other game like EVE out there to go to.
Actually CCP could be taken to court. Banning ISK buyers is a blatant ploy to increase GTC revenues. As such it is a clear violation of US antitrust laws. CCP should talk to the officers of Neteller about whether having an offshore HQ is a safe haven. [Neteller's HQ is the Isle of Mann but they still ended up under arrest in NY. And Neteller has a lot more lawyers than CCP.]
Banning ISK buyers is CCP's prerogative. But if they do, then selling GTCs is illegal in the US.
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Alani Martinius
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Posted - 2008.04.13 23:26:00 -
[194]
Liebe Leute von CCP,
mit euerem Markt stimmt etwas nicht und deswegen besorgen sich die Spieler ISK aus dem Internet.
Nicht jeder kann oder will in einer Corporation mitmachen.
Ich bin ein reiner Wochenendspieler. Zu bestimmten Zeiten kann ich dies noch nicht mal. Weil ich als Computerspezialist _berstunden machen muss. Somit bin ich auf mich selbst angewiesen. Also hab ich keine gro¯e M÷glichkeiten bestimmte Skill die sehr teuer sind zu erwerben, weil wahnnwitzige Preise dafnr festgelegt werden(z.B. Advanced Spaceship Command Skill 45 Mill ISK.) Wie lange soll da jemand Erze sammeln ein, zwei, drei Jahre ?
Das Spiel ist konzepiert fnr Gruppen (Corporations)das weiss ich, aber wenn dann klein Gruppen (bis 10 Mitgliedern kaum eine Entwicklungschance haben um gro¯e Technologien zu erwerben ist das bedenkenswert.
Ich mache bei EVE mit um die verschiedenen Technologien die es gibt zu erlernen eine paar davon zu besitzen mehr nicht. Ich selbst halte mich aus allen Konflikte raus, und seh zu, das ich meinen Karakter weiterentwickle.
Mittlerweile sto¯e ich an die Grenze meiner finanziellen M÷glichkeiten im EVE-Universum.
Mein nSchstes Ziel war einen Carrier zu erwerben und die Skills zu erhalten. 450 Mill ISK fnr den Skill(in allen Regionen) ist kaum ein angebrachter Preis dafnr.
Auch wenn mann sich einen eigenen Spezialisten fnr Marktforschung/analyse beschafft hat, der sch÷ne Analysen macht, bringt es nichts fnr die kleinen Corporations.
Die CCP hat immer wieder sch÷ne Entwicklungen hervor gebracht. Aber wenn das Marktkonzept nicht nberarbeitet wird, sollte mann darnber nachdenken einen eigenen SHOP fnr ISK und alle anderen Sachen auf zu ziehen.
Wenn dann jemand wo anders ISK ect. kauft, dann kann man den mit den hSrtesten Strafen kommen und eventuell raus kicken.
Auch mich habt ihr schon mal erwischt  - toll - - 450 Mill ISK.
Habe aber auch bei einem Test gemerkt, das bei euch in der Firma jemand sitzen muss der dabei mit macht.
Ich habe mal eine GROSSE Summe gekauft.
Dann hab ich mehr erhalten als bestellt.
Schnell transferiert.
Zwei Tage spSter meldet sich ein unbekannter, ich soll das zuviel bezahlte zurnck zahlen.
Ich frage nach, um zuerfahren ob wirklich mein Vertragspartner dahinter steckt.
Er halte nicht zufriedenstellende Antworten und zahle nicht.
Am dritten Tag kann ich mich nicht mehr ordentlich einloggen, die Verbindung bricht regelmSssig nach 5 Minuten ab. Eine weiter Ermahnung erreicht mich.
Erst nach dem ich alle zuviel gezahlten BetrSge zurnck-gezahlt habe kann ich frei spielen.
Das hat mir gezeigt, das hier mit zweierlei Mass gemessen wird.
Ich habe den VerkSufer gewechselt und keine Probleme mehr gehabt.
Liebe CCP Leute setzt euch mal zusammen und nberlegt mal ganz grnndlich nach, ob ihr hier nicht nber das Ziel hinaus schie¯t. Bevor ihr ein neues Release raus lasst mit viel schnick schnack.
Beispiel ist eventuell SecondLive als Shopprinzip - es sollten aber keine BetrSge auf die realen Konten der Spieler zurnckfliesen. Fnr Deutsche hat das steuerrechtlich konziquenzen.
Jetzt kommen wir zu einem heiklen juristischem Punkt.
Sind eure AGB nberhaupt gnltig fnr Deutschland
Das werde ich mit euch in einer anderen Rubrik diskutieren Die such ich morgen raus.
Tschnss.
(Solltet ihr jetzt meinen mich raus schmei¯en zu mnssen, wSre bewiesen das mit zweierlei Ma¯ gemessen wird und bei uns in Deutschland wSre die M÷glichkeit dagegen juristisch vorzugehen. )
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TordenSkiold
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Posted - 2008.04.13 23:53:00 -
[195]
Originally by: LTcyberT1000
Well, i think the main reason why EVE gets so lots of isk sellers/macro miners/etc is because of too much crowd in same EVE universe. Comparing with 3 years ago to ~5000 players and 3500 solar systems with ~35 000 players and same 3500 systems is a big difference. For normal player there is not enough space in these days. Try to look percentage not mined out belts with better ore than veldspar and scordite and i am sure it will be >90% of total belts wiped out right before downtime. Same is with 0.0 systems where people are "sitting" squized in crowds on top of each other.
CCP, player base expanded so much, and it is time to think about opening another EVE galaxy where ALL 40 000 players will fit like it was 3 years ago...
This.
CCP needs to wake up on this issue or it WILL slowly kill the game.
It isn't that fun anymore when the systems just keep getting more crowdy and resources become less accessable for honest players. Having a sense of adventure and exploration once in a while never hurts the gaming experience either. Now a lot of players feel like loging on to play some sort of rush-hour/gredlock virtual experience. You wait, lag or que up for most things you want to do.
Rid the game of macro'ers and farmers, yes it will help. But we also need more space . . . .
Torden'
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Soulspatch
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Posted - 2008.04.14 02:27:00 -
[196]
People sell ETC's because they want ISK. Others buy ETC's with ISK so they do not have to pay real money to play. The price of an ETC keep's falling which certainly is great for those wishing to purchase them using ISK. Unfortunitly if the price keeps dropping those who are after ISK will stop buying ETC's because it will not be worth the expense. CCP could sell ISK direct to the players and/or make ETC's non-transferable. Another option would be to fix the price of ETC's. In any instance there is demand for ISK and CCP are not meeting that demand, and they wonder why players then go to the ISK traders. |
GameNotzi
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Posted - 2008.04.14 03:26:00 -
[197]
"If you need ISK, then please use the Secure ETC Trading System. This system is completely secure and risk free and the ISK you get this way is yours to keep, while we will mercilessly remove ISK bought for real money from ISK sellers, and we remove tens of billions of illegally purchased ISK every day."
This statement is false. The ETC trading system is not secure what so ever. CCP holds you liable for the actions of the people you trade the time too using their system. Without naming names person 'A' purchased a time card through this ETC system and Shateredcrystal. Person 'A' rcvd 360 mil isk and followed the rules exactly.Everything went perfectly-or so we thought. After completing the transaction person 'B' took his new timecard and sold it for real money to another player- person 'B' was caught red handed. Person 'B' got off with a warning and lost his timecard which didnt cost him anything but data on a stupid hardrive in Iceland. Person 'A' was punished more severely when ccp removed the isk from his account. Person 'A' is out real world money and has nothing to show for it. Who wins in the scenario? CCP. Person 'A' went through the proper channels and pleaded with CCP to be compensated somehow. Person 'A' also demanded person 'B' be banned for abusing the ETC system. Here is GM Krymus's response
"I wish we did not have to take these actions, but we prefer to remove the isk, rather than banning the account as we are aware that many simply do not read the rules"
" It is absolutely certain that all donations from this character were being sold for real money. As such, we are forced to remove the ISK from those who received it, as this is a violation of the EVE Online EULA"
I dont have a problem with ccp removing the isk from the game. I do however, have a problem with CCP profiting from the sale of the timecard and not giving anything to anyone. Person A followed the rules and was punished more severely than person 'b', who was clearly the guilty party according to the GM. CCP should either provide a timecard,ISK in question, or at least a partial refund to Person 'A' money minus shatteredcrystal's cut.
For those of you like me considering using the ETC system keep this in mind.You might get absolutely nothing for your money if someone you dont even know breaks the rules after the transaction. Whether we follow the rules or break them we are all at the mercy of CCP and the whims of the GMs.
GameNotzi
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Reptzo
Master Miners
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Posted - 2008.04.14 04:39:00 -
[198]
Originally by: GameNotzi
"If you need ISK, then please use the Secure ETC Trading System. This system is completely secure and risk free and the ISK you get this way is yours to keep, while we will mercilessly remove ISK bought for real money from ISK sellers, and we remove tens of billions of illegally purchased ISK every day."
This statement is false. The ETC trading system is not secure what so ever. CCP holds you liable for the actions of the people you trade the time too using their system. Without naming names person 'A' purchased a time card through this ETC system and Shateredcrystal. Person 'A' rcvd 360 mil isk and followed the rules exactly.Everything went perfectly-or so we thought. After completing the transaction person 'B' took his new timecard and sold it for real money to another player- person 'B' was caught red handed. Person 'B' got off with a warning and lost his timecard which didnt cost him anything but data on a stupid hardrive in Iceland. Person 'A' was punished more severely when ccp removed the isk from his account. Person 'A' is out real world money and has nothing to show for it. Who wins in the scenario? CCP. Person 'A' went through the proper channels and pleaded with CCP to be compensated somehow. Person 'A' also demanded person 'B' be banned for abusing the ETC system. Here is GM Krymus's response
"I wish we did not have to take these actions, but we prefer to remove the isk, rather than banning the account as we are aware that many simply do not read the rules"
" It is absolutely certain that all donations from this character were being sold for real money. As such, we are forced to remove the ISK from those who received it, as this is a violation of the EVE Online EULA"
I dont have a problem with ccp removing the isk from the game. I do however, have a problem with CCP profiting from the sale of the timecard and not giving anything to anyone. Person A followed the rules and was punished more severely than person 'b', who was clearly the guilty party according to the GM. CCP should either provide a timecard,ISK in question, or at least a partial refund to Person 'A' money minus shatteredcrystal's cut.
For those of you like me considering using the ETC system keep this in mind.You might get absolutely nothing for your money if someone you dont even know breaks the rules after the transaction. Whether we follow the rules or break them we are all at the mercy of CCP and the whims of the GMs.
GameNotzi
This seems rather impossible. When you sell a GTC through the secure system, the person buying doesn't get the code. They get an offer on their account. So it is impossible to re-sell. It sounds like your friend was selling the code, but not through the secure system, which is recently against the EULA. Although, depending how long ago your friend sold the GTC, it may not have been against the rules at that time. Either way, not cool that he went legit and still got burned.
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Kromaatikse Alain
Gallente
Thiokol Spacefaring Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.04.14 06:16:00 -
[199]
I believe quite strongly that removing the supply is more effective than removing the demand, wherever this is possible. If the sellers have nothing to sell, they won't spam, they have no effect on the environment or market, and everyone is left in peace.
The economics of RMT are twofold: prices of commodities (such as minerals) go down, while prices of rare, performance-enhancing items (such as officer mods) go up. This is because the macros are selling commodities which they produce in bulk, and ISK buyers are using their newfound wealth on the best stuff they can find. These dynamics hurt both new and experienced players alike - because the profits of mining go down, and the best modules just get rarer.
I realise that more officer modules become available due to the mission-runner macros and farmers. However, because they are not the only sources of sold ISK - macro-miners are a large part of it - this effect does not balance out the scarcity caused by extra ISK being available to buyers.
IMO, the easiest way to spot a macro is to measure how long it spends online. A genuine human cannot physically spend more than about 16 hours a day online and active - at least, not sustainably. After about a week of 23/7 activity, he would keel over and die, like those Koreans we keep hearing about.
Therefore, if there is consistently more than 16 hours per day activity on a single account (and I mean actually pressing buttons here), then either the account is being shared (against the EULA, except for rare cases like capital ship pilots), or there is a macro running.
I'd like to ask the devs and GMs whether such time monitoring is presently performed - and if not, why not?
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The key to knowledge is not to rely on others to teach it to you. |
Smilla Snow
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Posted - 2008.04.14 08:19:00 -
[200]
Originally by: Alani Martinius
Auch mich habt ihr schon mal erwischt - toll - - 450 Mill ISK.
Hoffentlich erwischen Sie dich wieder!
Es ist schade, nur weil du nicht so ganz kapiert hast wie das Spiel funktioniert, das Du ISK fnr Cash einkaufst. Viele Wochenendspieler mnssen das nicht, die benutzen ihre KreativitSt und das Spiel um an ISK zu kommen - und es gibt so viele Wege.
Dein Post war jetzt einfach nur ein Armutszeugnis, und sry das ich jetzt so direkt bin, aber das muss dir mal jemand sagen.
Short english text...
I hope CCP will catch you again when you buying ISK. Your Reasons, like weekendplayer, is a just whining. You have a lot of possabilities to get ISK, just no "Instant Soup" one. Your reasons are just a poverty testimony of yourself and sry to be that direct, but i think somebody should tell you that.
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Commander Izton
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Posted - 2008.04.14 12:09:00 -
[201]
"If you need ISK, then please use the Secure ETC Trading System. This system is completely secure and risk free and the ISK you get this way is yours to keep, while we will mercilessly remove ISK bought for real money from ISK sellers, and we remove tens of billions of illegally purchased ISK every day."
This statement is false. The ETC trading system is not secure what so ever. CCP holds you liable for the actions of the people you trade the time too using their system. Without naming names person 'A' purchased a time card through this ETC system and Shateredcrystal. Person 'A' rcvd 360 mil isk and followed the rules exactly.Everything went perfectly-or so we thought. After completing the transaction person 'B' took his new timecard and sold it for real money to another player- person 'B' was caught red handed. Person 'B' got off with a warning and lost his timecard which didnt cost him anything but data on a stupid hardrive in Iceland. Person 'A' was punished more severely when ccp removed the isk from his account. Person 'A' is out real world money and has nothing to show for it. Who wins in the scenario? CCP. Person 'A' went through the proper channels and pleaded with CCP to be compensated somehow. Person 'A' also demanded person 'B' be banned for abusing the ETC system. Here is GM Krymus's response
"I wish we did not have to take these actions, but we prefer to remove the isk, rather than banning the account as we are aware that many simply do not read the rules"
" It is absolutely certain that all donations from this character were being sold for real money. As such, we are forced to remove the ISK from those who received it, as this is a violation of the EVE Online EULA"
I dont have a problem with ccp removing the isk from the game. I do however, have a problem with CCP profiting from the sale of the timecard and not giving anything to anyone. Person A followed the rules and was punished more severely than person 'b', who was clearly the guilty party according to the GM. CCP should either provide a timecard,ISK in question, or at least a partial refund to Person 'A' money minus shatteredcrystal's cut.
For those of you like me considering using the ETC system keep this in mind.You might get absolutely nothing for your money if someone you dont even know breaks the rules after the transaction. Whether we follow the rules or break them we are all at the mercy of CCP and the whims of the GMs.
GameNotzi
This seems rather impossible. When you sell a GTC through the secure system, the person buying doesn't get the code. They get an offer on their account. So it is impossible to re-sell. It sounds like your friend was selling the code, but not through the secure system, which is recently against the EULA. Although, depending how long ago your friend sold the GTC, it may not have been against the rules at that time. Either way, not cool that he went legit and still got burned.
IF you READ and comprehend a little more carefully, especially the GM's quotes you will see it happened exactly how I stated- and it happened a couple of weeks ago. Thats not in question... I challenge any moderator or gm to dispute my facts I stated. I dont not know exactly how Person 'b' was caught since i dont know him nor do i care. I am deeply concerned with CCP saying something is "risk free" when in fact its not
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Garet Jaxis
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Posted - 2008.04.14 12:27:00 -
[202]
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
I am hoping that with subscription 2.0 the RMT trade will diminish even further
Get a clue. Subscriptions 2.0 was an April fools joke toward Microsoft. Read the dev posting and comments. It was posted on April 1st. It was an APRIL FOOLS JOKE.
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Sir Substance
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Posted - 2008.04.14 14:20:00 -
[203]
Originally by: Pooka
Edited by: Pooka on 12/04/2008 17:46:10
HEY!!
7 pages and no one has asked a question about this: "Corporations, or even Alliances, should not be able to fuel their wars and other activities like they have done in a number of cases with ISK bought for real world money."
WHO? Which Corporations and did you ban them or not!!
I can guess which ones you are talking about.
CCP comment please.
i dont think CCP needs to name names. any corp or alliance doing this would have been shafted by CCP. look for an alliance that suddenly died with no warning.
meanwhile, i was glad to see that people who buy ISK and spend it get negative wallet. it warms my heart to see your not going to give any ground on the situation of RTM. all is as it should be in that respect.
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Aktivistka
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Posted - 2008.04.14 19:14:00 -
[204]
1. I think that the players must report bot-macro using miners. U can easily find them in ice belts.
How can U see that this is a bot?
-They mostly never use transport ships to transport ice to base. As soon as their cargo hold is full, the macro automaticly make them jump to station. Then they go to the same place and do the same sequence all over again untill they empty whole ice field. This is really annoying, I tell ya.
-Also there are several (5+) mining bots in one place.
-They are mostly members of noob corps
2. The second problem is real money pilot selling. Some people established this business and make a good money from that. For example a pilot that has about 30mln skill points cost up to 800 US dollars
3. Though the money transfers are seen by admins, ISK sellers use orders at station or contracts to "legally" transfer the money
The buyer of isks for example put the ship for specified sum of money, the isk seller buys it and gives back the item through trade at station...
from time to time I see t1 invulnerability field in contracts or orders for more than 1 billion.)) U got my idea, I hope
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Corlinas
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Posted - 2008.04.14 20:42:00 -
[205]
I ask a simple question, what is the difference in RMT for ISK and selling game time cards? The more I think about it, all I see is there really is only the difference of one extra step and paperwork. Why not License the selling? I haven't myself bought any ISK and don't intend to as a personal choice but I don't particularly see a reason why not other than game legality.
1. Second Life, a very large MMORPG, does it regularly and people still enjoy their time on the game.
2. The people that buy ISK either a. don't play very often and everyone they play with that does is able to afford much nicer ships and implants and various other niceties that sets them way behing the power curve, or b. will not necessarily have the experience that grinding missions and pvp for cash gives you so they will have really nice toys, but can't use them for crap. (Ever seen a one month old character buy a Navy Issue Raven and subsequently go to a 0.4 sec space unprotected? I have, it is absolutely hillarious when they cry and whine about losing it to some punk in a destroyer with a tenth the price of gear.)
3. ISK farmers are everywhere in MMORPGs, ever since Everquest really hit it big. As soon as you switched on the first servers for beta testers, I will bet you a year of my real life pay that you had at least ten percent of the supposed testers were actually game money farmers, ramping up. As long as they see a way of making money you can't stop them. United States of America's war on drugs for the past fifty years should help anyone see that. Drugs still plague a lot of countries no matter what steps they take.
4. Regulating can actually improve your profit margins. Think about Licensing Game money sales websites and them giving you a cut of what they make, then you could put that in your pocket and improve your security systems for hackers. How much training does it really take till you are making enough money to regularly sell it anyway? I would think at least six months with multiple accounts and tons of hours online for a decent sized group of people. No matter how much time you spend on it, it takes at least that long to train up to where a pilot has a good ship with a great outfit and can use it well enough for money making mining operations and/or mission running and complex farming. Corporations out there don't even sell ISK but still complex farm. Everyone knows who I am talking about.
5. Really want to fix macro mining? Try using signals that don't register to Macro programs if you want to verify a person is actually online. Like the entire game screen getting a red haze over it. No other affect but what a player would see instead of a program, then if no response, log them off, or blow up their ship. They'll stop if you keep blowing their ships up when they go permanent AFK while their character is actually active mining or mission running without them. And if an immediate response is received from the player going to a gm and talking to them, saying they were there, give them a new ship with the same outfit and cargo. No harm no foul, just a little lost time.
I feel a lot of this is solvable with legalizing and regulating. I noticed when I did research on this game that most of the farming sights charge for ISK, just a few ISK cheaper then what you sell GTCs for. You already control what a single ISK is worth when you set the price of your Game time cards and players barter deals for them, why not just take it the one logical step forward by legalizing, regulating, and ensuring that it is the GTC that is cheaper and therefore shift market focus toward it instead so your goal of making people spend more time on game is achieved and you attract more new players to your game with the facet. I might be simplifying the economics a bit but please look at this from another angle instead of believing a large number of player problems and hacking would result from selling straight ISK for money.
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marmitta
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Posted - 2008.04.15 05:59:00 -
[206]
Edited by: marmitta on 15/04/2008 06:04:20
Originally by: Anatal Klep
The blurb on RMT is one of the more disingenuous things I've read lately.
Problem 1: RMT fosters crime outside EVE. OK, but that is none of CCP's business. CCP is a game vendor, not Interpol. In addition, ISK buyers are not the bad guys and don't even know which sellers are bad guys. Caveat emptor.
Problem 2: RMT harms everyone because it messes up the EVE economy. CCP must have slept through Economics 101. This argument is rubbish because the inflation already exists due to cash cows in the game. To increase inflation the ISK must be spent and it doesn't matter if it is spent by the original ISK farmer or someone else making an RMT transfer payment. cash cow = inflation and RMT has nothing to do with that.
Problem 3: RMT encourages macro-play for ISK farming. True. But CCP could stop macro-play any time it wants with a few heuristics on player activities. The interesting question is: why doesn't CCP do that? CCP doesn't because...
Problem 4: ETC is Good -- for CCP! That's because CCP gets extra revenue from players who could not otherwise afford multiple accounts. So the ISK farming is allowed to ensure ETC purchases to finance those accounts through transfer payments from players who do have plenty of RM and want to buy their way into positions. But CCP doesn't get any revenue if those transfer payments are outside the game, so CCP tries to force all such RMT to be through ETCs by making ISK purchasers the bad guys.
[For the record: I don't buy ISK because I already make 9 figures a week trading and manufacturing -- without macros.]
hit the nail on the head with that post.. i prefer reading posts where the peeps tell it like it is.. not the smuzzeez trying to get a GM job.. 9 figures a week wow good for you ... most miners are lucky making 50M a day.. that is if they dont loose 200 Million worth of ships to the ccp sanctioned goon swarm bombers .. could you imagine the CCP bottom line with no chinease macro miner accounts active.. can you say bankruptcy and not in ISK either.. the whole shamile is a scam they allow chinease macroers, they allow the goons to thrash miners all to fill there bottom line pure and simple  ( thats also why there is no way to contact and real company employees.. no 800 number, just a canned message from a player who smuzzied his way into a GM position no customer service at all)
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Lioun Warga
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Posted - 2008.04.15 11:54:00 -
[207]
Postet this a few days ago...
Comments are welcome..
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=747465
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johangent
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Posted - 2008.04.15 15:42:00 -
[208]
gtc for isk is needed , becouse the 2004 players can kill for fun even in emp chars and stop there game .
its easy for a 2004 the game started in 2003 , emp was safe .
2003 players in 0.0
for example 5 ravens with torps on a gate in emp , full damage , everything is death , and the insurantie pays even the ship back :-)
2004 somethimes thinking its not only the skils , and indeed , but for this it is .
in july starts a boycot for that .
a lot industrial chars and others are already in .
this summer all new players never survive to let ccp change things .
a 2004 can kill us , we kan kill all the new chars .
and even olsow get the isk back from insurantie
rules are rules , and for breaking a rule there must be a punishement , for example , kill a industrial in a 0.5 and higher , lost torps 5 skil
im sure these killer protest for that , the protesting chars are then the killers , and are to scared to fight in 0.0
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Lab Technician071548
Astro-Support Services
East India Company
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Posted - 2008.04.15 15:58:00 -
[209]
In an effort to assist CCP in finding ISK sellers and macro players, I offer the following tip in the form of a question (Jeopardy, anyone?):
"How many people with legitimate game play in mind name their characters 'klajsdhgft?'"
Or, put another way in the form of a statement: "There exist heurisms for identifying unlikely letter combinations and characters with, say, 2 or more unlikely combinations or all numbers in their name should be targetted for EULA violation auditing."
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Do you need special permission to type in this color? |
Ki Anna
Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2008.04.15 18:08:00 -
[210]
Originally by: Lab Technician071548
In an effort to assist CCP in finding ISK sellers and macro players, I offer the following tip in the form of a question (Jeopardy, anyone?):
"How many people with legitimate game play in mind name their characters 'klajsdhgft?'"
Or, put another way in the form of a statement: "There exist heurisms for identifying unlikely letter combinations and characters with, say, 2 or more unlikely combinations or all numbers in their name should be targetted for EULA violation auditing."
As soon as CCP implements such a policy the only people who would have characters named like that would be legitmate players.
Those who repeatedly violate the EULA/ToS to engage in RMT will quickly learn that they need to use names that pass the heuristic check.
Those legitmate players who create a scout or other toss-away character using a name that does not pass the heuristic check will be the only ones who are picked up by the check.
It is fair better to apply heuristics to play style than to character names, and I am sure that CCP is already well on their way with regards to such things.
Of course they cannot tell us anything about their heuristics without giving away information that would void their effectiveness.
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