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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Volition Cult
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Posted - 2008.04.09 02:43:00 -
[31]
It kinda sucks that people can buy their way out of losses, true.
But the alternatives of not having GTC sales are all worse than having them. It is a question of "least harm".
No, it is not reasonable to suppose that whole alliances are funding wars with GTCs. 1.6B (10 cards) barely buys a single, unfitted dreadnought. GTC sales are only distorting at an individual level. OK that's kind of annoying but it's not likely to actually spoil the game for anyone unless they specifically intend to ruin an individual player. But it's so easy to make ISK anyway that it would be pretty hard to do that anyway. Arguably, GTCs distort the market for very high-end gear (Snake sets, etc), but tbh, I have made nearly enough ISK to buy a 90-day GTC in a single day of hi-sec level 4 missioning (although it was a long and dull day). Given that people have mission alts, complaining about GTC sales is like asking someone not to smoke in a house that's already on fire.
Conversely, a number of very good players, including several personal friends of mine, rely on buying GTCs to play. EvE is definitely better off for having these people in the game.
In essence the problem is that people are frequently lazy and not too concerned with ethics. So what are you gonna do? What's your idea that will be better for EvE than the current situation? If you can find a way to make people be ethical and diligent, the implications are far wider than some online game a few thousand people play. If you can't, I don't see how you can replace the GTC system with something that won't cause more problems and have fewer benefits.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Ephemeron
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.09 02:50:00 -
[32]
If removing GTCs does more harm than good, then what about removing ability to sell 10-30 GTCs in a few days?
Limit the number of GTCs a person can sell for isk.
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Atomos Darksun
Infortunatus Eventus
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Posted - 2008.04.09 02:53:00 -
[33]
yeah?
And without the GTC system many more people would be buying from Isk farmers.
More demand = more isk farmers = more supply, prices drop, more people buy, more people get banned, CCP loses RL Isk.
Originally by: Amoxin My vent is talking to me in a devil voice...
Atomos' Guide to Forum Flaming |
Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
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Posted - 2008.04.09 02:54:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Tobias Sjodin on 09/04/2008 02:55:36 In this argument I prefer the lesser of the two evils. It's CCP's product, they should be entitled to do what they want with it. Those people are making IRL-cash on the CCP license.
Lesser of the two evils, as buying ISK is always gonna be there. Sanctioned is the way to go.
As for the "hypocrisy", there would be an even bigger drama-reaction if CCP said "Hah! **** off, we do it if we want" I think. Now it's a way to combat the other ISK-sellers. ISK-selling will be here to stay, so I'd rather buy it from a legit source that has a secure means to transfer it.
Black Hand.
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Scoundrelus
Dark Tornado Synchr0nicity
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Posted - 2008.04.09 02:57:00 -
[35]
Simply put Le Skunk, your completely correct. CCP are being complete hypocrites about the whole issue. You can't buy isk but you can buy game time cards and sell them for isk. Exact same thing except CCP gets to line its pockets. I really have no problem with them doing that but they shouldn't act like holy crusaders for the War Against Macro Miners, when obviously they leave macrominers/haulers in the game for the additional income and allow GTC sales (despite many contradictions) for even more income.
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Kylegar
Dawn of Fire Black-Out
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Posted - 2008.04.09 03:01:00 -
[36]
Hold on a second.
Buying GTCs is ISK going from someone who legitimetly earned the ISK to someone who sold the other guy something
RMT is ISK going from someone who didnt legitimatly earn thier ISK (used Macros, etc) to someone who broke the EULA.
GTC != RMT
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Originally by: CCP Ginger No sex changes.
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2008.04.09 03:02:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Le Skunk on 09/04/2008 03:03:20
Originally by: Malcanis
No, it is not reasonable to suppose that whole alliances are funding wars with GTCs. 1.6B (10 cards) barely buys a single, unfitted dreadnought.
Perhaps so. But CCPs devblog suggests otherwise
Originally by: "ccp"
Corporations, or even Alliances, should not be able to fuel their wars and other activities like they have done in a number of cases with ISK bought for real world money.
The suggesting is there are a 'number' of cases where this has happened in the past using real world money trade for isk.
This, it is alluded to, is very naughty and should be stamped out.
Yet the 90bill per day CCP sponsored GTC to ISK is ok dokey. Spend it on what ya want - we dont care.
My argument is less about the ethics of the GTC trade, and more about CCPs greenwashing of whats a nice little earner for them. They should come right out with it.
Theres been a number of cases recently where the PR machine has churned out some rather ripe material. This should be stamped out.
CCP should come out of the closet (so to speak)
SKUNK
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Eseo Val
Undertakers MC
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Posted - 2008.04.09 03:12:00 -
[38]
OMG ! CCP is trying to make money !
If someone wants to buy a very expensive ship and fit with real money, I don't see any problem. Either he's using it to carebear and he's an idiot who used real money to kill NPC more efficiently; or he's a pvper and he's going to loose it's ship at one point, and I just hope I will be on the killmail.
Originally by: Le Skunk Edited by: Le Skunk on 09/04/2008 01:36:55 Edited by: Le Skunk on 09/04/2008 01:36:17
Originally by: Woodwraith
I dont have time to sit and grind and market wh****/rat/mission whatever isk income people have. I work 50+ hours a week. your buying a month off of someone who has the time to make isk through in-game means and not the money out of game to subscribe.
Lets imagine you decide to take up tennis. And enter a local league.
Would you storm in with your wallet out saying
"Hey nerds. I work a 50 hour week man. And i aint got time to practice. So im going to pay 2 grand right now to win the trophy. Horray im the winner. Right im off. Taxi to the squash club. And make it snappy! dont you know i work a 50 hour week."
Oh yeah ! Buying a ship is like buying an i-win button ! !Everyone know that with officer fitting you can't be killed ! Try a real comparion. It's like putting money in a race car. You can buy the best car the world has to offer, if don't know how to drive you're screwed.
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Ironnight
x13
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Posted - 2008.04.09 03:25:00 -
[39]
Paying 3 months with creditcard Ç38,85 paying with gametimecard $38,85, sorry but my mom didnt raise no sucker, keep the gametimecards.
They're like 'oh **** son, its a trap ' *Doomsday* |
Faife
Blackrain Solutions Twilight Trade Cartel
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Posted - 2008.04.09 03:48:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Le Skunk Edited by: Le Skunk on 09/04/2008 00:25:42 Another CCP sugar coated dev blog regarding the "nasty evil isk sellers" had the usual couple of things in it that didnt sit quite right.
There was an odor of something fishy. And i dont mean the tuna and anchovie that drips out of the end of their free CCP gourmet rolls and splatters all over their keyboard.
So I jumped on over to the Timecode Bizaree and took a look at the volumes of cards that were being trafficd. Remember, these are not cards bought by a player to take advantage of exchange rates to fund their own subscriptions. They are bought by players to lazy or incompetant or lackluster to earn the isk for themselves in game - and instead take the shortcut to riches - gaining a huge advantage over players who choose the honest in game route to slowley building up their empires.
I took a look at one random page of posts. In that page,
36 time codes were sold with an average value of 258 million isk each. Over 9 Billion isk sold on the page. 1100 dollars US worth of codes.
Thats quite a lot of isk being sold you might think.... well here is the kicker.
There are 11 similar pages for the day
A quick check of the other pages revealed a similar amount being sold each page. A quick check through the year also yielded similar amounts.
Thats 10 thousand dollars a day flowing into CCPs coffers.
3.5 million dollars a year.
Its also 90 Billion isk flowing unearned into peoples coffers per day - rubbishing CCP Gimnis statement that
Quote: Supply and demand dictates that it would be very difficult for an individual to gather tens of billions of ISK with the secure system and thus game balance will not be upset.
If you bought enough codes, you could shift 90 billion isk a day. "Supply and demand" would not be affected in the slightest. CCP endorse buying your way to victory.
Quote: Corporations, or even Alliances, should not be able to fuel their wars and other activities like they have done in a number of cases with ISK bought for real world money.
They might want to consider that their own 'legal secure method' gives people the opportunity to do just that.
In a war with another corporation and lose your carrier in a hard thought out and bitterly fought out engagement with some players who dont buy isk? Simply flog 5 GTC and get another. Use it tommorow and its a slap in their face tee-hee. Isnt life fun.
Its a further indication of how business rules over ethics for many at CCP - despite their protestations.
This is all well and good. CCP is a business - in it to make money. They create a good product. Many aspects of the game are very good. Their GM's in particular have been top notch in all my dealings with them.
Just dont go all holier then thou on us and release patronising dev posts like that one - when you yourself are rolling in "evil" bought isk dollars.
SKUNK
isk seller alt spotted
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CRUSH BOSS
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Posted - 2008.04.09 05:13:00 -
[41]
If i want to buy ISK from TCs then why not, it's legal, and i can afford it.
If you can't afford it tough luck, go get a better paying job.
I work for a living hows about you?
I will buy as much isk as i need to fly anyship or fit any module i like, that's why i love this game.
We fight for the ONE - We die for the ONE Don't troll in your signature please. -Hango |
IamAcontractALT
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Posted - 2008.04.09 06:15:00 -
[42]
Edited by: IamAcontractALT on 09/04/2008 06:15:15 If you want to stop street prostitution, which is build off the back of violent pimps, drug dealers, wannabe Mafia Dons and so on, have leagal places for people to visit.
Amazingly enough, replace pimps with slavemasters and that is the current state of play with goldfarmers/iskfarmers.
So GTC's are the same. But at least your fun does not support some wannabe Mafia bigshot who runs slave camps of prost...I mean isk farmers.
Yeah its still dirty, but at least it removes the undesirables from the equasion. Nobody ever claims it is high and holy. But there is a need for people who cannot get it anyware (subscription) and they at least have a option to play the game.
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Spaztick
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Posted - 2008.04.09 06:19:00 -
[43]
If GTCs weren't in place people would be here complaining about ISK buyers. Hell they do that anyway. The money's better off in the hands of CCP than some guy getting rich off of Chinese slave labor.
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Zartach Tzarszh
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Posted - 2008.04.09 06:32:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Le Skunk
If you bought enough codes, you could shift 90 billion isk a day. "Supply and demand" would not be affected in the slightest. CCP endorse buying your way to victory.
In a war with another corporation and lose your carrier in a hard thought out and bitterly fought out engagement with some players who dont buy isk? Simply flog 5 GTC and get another. Use it tommorow and its a slap in their face tee-hee. Isnt life fun.
Its a further indication of how business rules over ethics for many at CCP - despite their protestations.
Just dont go all holier then thou on us and release patronising dev posts like that one - when you yourself are rolling in "evil" bought isk dollars.
If you want to waste a couple of thousand $ a month to buy codes i'll just say ....
Most people cant afford 5 GTC's every month, i know of one or two who use GTC to fund their pvp but then again it keeps them playing the game and someone in their alliance gets to play for iskies.
CCP are a business, they have to expand and make profit, i have seen a few good gaems go down to 100 player cult like status cause of bad business decisions.
You might think ccp is evil for allowing GTC to be sold for isk, i think you should read the blog again. Iskies are being moved fromn player to player, and yes there might be a few farmer accounts using it. But they are not making RL $ from buying GTC. As said, and confirmed by players - some people can't afford the 14$ a moth or are unable to use a CC to play. This allows those people to still enjoy EVE.
Where as isk from wanggoodiskservicefreecookie might just be from a hacked account which makes otehr people sad panda's
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MilowFV
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Posted - 2008.04.09 06:40:00 -
[45]
I think it was a great idea on CCP part, the only sad part of this thread is I read the first few post before I said hell with it and skip to the end to post.
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Achran Dexx
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Posted - 2008.04.09 06:53:00 -
[46]
What's even funnier is the sort of names that buy the GTC's. Check it out once, you'll find atleast two or three macro'ers per page.
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Dseed
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Posted - 2008.04.09 07:15:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Le Skunk
Quote: Supply and demand dictates that it would be very difficult for an individual to gather tens of billions of ISK with the secure system and thus game balance will not be upset.
If you bought enough codes, you could shift 90 billion isk a day. "Supply and demand" would not be affected in the slightest. CCP endorse buying your way to victory.
Quote: Corporations, or even Alliances, should not be able to fuel their wars and other activities like they have done in a number of cases with ISK bought for real world money.
if an alliance or corp needed its members to sell GTCs for isk to fuel their war, the war is already lost. a large part of war is not about how many ppl you actually kill. but how deep a wallet your opposition's got, the moment you empty your enemy's wallet. you will see it crumble down from inside, i cant speak for everybody out there, but EVE is a game in the end, and i personally would not spend $200 US for GTC to buy a dread. just an example.
that being said, isk is very easy to make in this game. I have 3 accounts running and i have only purchased a 90 days card from CCP with my own money, rest were paid with isk. it is essentially "free" to play for me, which is what i love about this game.
btw, 70b is indeed a lot of isk, but not enough to impact the current economy of eve by a large scale. I personally know some player's trading and manufacturing ventures to be at that number on a bi weekly scale. and im sure they are not the richest ones out there.
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
Anglo
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Posted - 2008.04.09 07:37:00 -
[48]
if u cant aford to play eve without buying gtc u are a looser. if u buy isk from ebay etc.. u are a looser...
make your god damn own isk... i know people who bought moms with gtc..SAD.. an its not an advatadge ??? those who says it aint are looser....
u all suck u who buy gtc.. nough said... SCUM.
ps. are looser for aloving it,,, also the isk farmers.. if they just took the reports from players serious we wouldent have any isk farmers...
NOUGH SAID...
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Joshua Foiritain
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Posted - 2008.04.09 07:47:00 -
[49]
The GTC system is awesome because i dont have to pay to play eve. ----- Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
Cissnei
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Posted - 2008.04.09 07:56:00 -
[50]
this system benefits those that have and use isk to buy the cards, and not those that just shelled out cash to buy the card itself
firstly, if the farmers who spam rookie chat are to be believed, ccp is currently charging nearly 3x the amount of $ for isk. you can get 150m isk from them at around $6 (plus risk losing your account to phishing, not receiving it at all and supporting macro mining hypocrite-commies), or you can spend $15 on 160-170m
so if a corp goes to war and loses..oh lets be conservative here..5 BILLION isk in assets after the war is over, that would cost 50x$15 give or take. $750. crapton more for you euro using dudes.
being as how war decs are a nearly hourly thing in this game i dont see that happening in the way you guys are insinuating (overreacting).
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Cissnei
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Posted - 2008.04.09 07:59:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Ironnight Paying 3 months with creditcard Ç38,85 paying with gametimecard $38,85, sorry but my mom didnt raise no sucker, keep the gametimecards.
the sucker would be you. the euro is worth substantially more than the dollar
so 39 euros is a helluva lot MORE than 39 dollars. it's nearly 50 dollars
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Roy Batty68
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Posted - 2008.04.09 08:15:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Le Skunk
My argument is less about the ethics of the GTC trade, and more about CCPs greenwashing of whats a nice little earner for them. They should come right out with it.
Theres been a number of cases recently where the PR machine has churned out some rather ripe material. This should be stamped out.
So in the same spirit they should come to this thread and say something like, "Hey Skunk... Quit being a **** just because you're still butthurt about the Alliance P thing". No sugar coating, right?
Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
IamAcontractALT
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Posted - 2008.04.09 08:20:00 -
[53]
Edited by: IamAcontractALT on 09/04/2008 08:21:04
Originally by: Cissnei this system benefits those that have and use isk to buy the cards, and not those that just shelled out cash to buy the card itself
firstly, if the farmers who spam rookie chat are to be believed, ccp is currently charging nearly 3x the amount of $ for isk. you can get 150m isk from them at around $6 (plus risk losing your account to phishing, not receiving it at all and supporting macro mining hypocrite-commies), or you can spend $15 on 160-170m
so if a corp goes to war and loses..oh lets be conservative here..5 BILLION isk in assets after the war is over, that would cost 50x$15 give or take. $750. crapton more for you euro using dudes.
being as how war decs are a nearly hourly thing in this game i dont see that happening in the way you guys are insinuating (overreacting).
Cost is non-issue in war. There are people who work all week and live off tins of beans and potatoes and spend all their wages in games such as fruit machines, online poker or even MMO's. If they earn 5000, they spend all of it. If they earn 1000 they spend all of it.
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Gilmour
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Posted - 2008.04.09 08:21:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Emperor D'Hoffryn I would rather 90 bil isk get moved from player to player then 90 bil isk get injected into the game from macros and the like.
The GTC program is CCP's best weapon of fighting isk sellers and macroers/farmers and the like.
But you take it for granted that nobody macomine at work to pay for their playtime. I'm sure it happens, not only isk sellers macromine I bet. I think the whole GTC for isk is a shady business, but maybe thats just me.
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Cissnei
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Posted - 2008.04.09 08:23:00 -
[55]
Originally by: IamAcontractALT Edited by: IamAcontractALT on 09/04/2008 08:21:04
Originally by: Cissnei this system benefits those that have and use isk to buy the cards, and not those that just shelled out cash to buy the card itself
firstly, if the farmers who spam rookie chat are to be believed, ccp is currently charging nearly 3x the amount of $ for isk. you can get 150m isk from them at around $6 (plus risk losing your account to phishing, not receiving it at all and supporting macro mining hypocrite-commies), or you can spend $15 on 160-170m
so if a corp goes to war and loses..oh lets be conservative here..5 BILLION isk in assets after the war is over, that would cost 50x$15 give or take. $750. crapton more for you euro using dudes.
being as how war decs are a nearly hourly thing in this game i dont see that happening in the way you guys are insinuating (overreacting).
Cost is non-issue in war. There are people who work all week and live off tins of beans and potatoes and spend all their wages in games such as fruit machines, online poker or even MMO's. If they earn 5000, they spend all of it. If they earn 1000 they spend all of it.
andyou honestly think those extremists make up such a substantial % of this playerbase? or any playerbase? or arent in china?
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2008.04.09 08:27:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Scoundrelus Simply put Le Skunk, your completely correct. CCP are being complete hypocrites about the whole issue. You can't buy isk but you can buy game time cards and sell them for isk. Exact same thing except CCP gets to line its pockets. I really have no problem with them doing that but they shouldn't act like holy crusaders for the War Against Macro Miners, when obviously they leave macrominers/haulers in the game for the additional income and allow GTC sales (despite many contradictions) for even more income.
Exactly this.
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
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FarScape III
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Posted - 2008.04.09 08:44:00 -
[57]
As long as SOMEONE earned the isk by not macroing then it is fine.
Besides isn't it SWEET to blow up someones ship that cost him REAL money???!!!! *** |
Malcanis
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Posted - 2008.04.09 09:00:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Le Skunk Edited by: Le Skunk on 09/04/2008 03:03:20
Originally by: Malcanis
No, it is not reasonable to suppose that whole alliances are funding wars with GTCs. 1.6B (10 cards) barely buys a single, unfitted dreadnought.
Perhaps so. But CCPs devblog suggests otherwise
Originally by: "ccp"
Corporations, or even Alliances, should not be able to fuel their wars and other activities like they have done in a number of cases with ISK bought for real world money.
The suggesting is there are a 'number' of cases where this has happened in the past using real world money trade for isk.
This, it is alluded to, is very naughty and should be stamped out.
Yet the 90bill per day CCP sponsored GTC to ISK is ok dokey. Spend it on what ya want - we dont care.
My argument is less about the ethics of the GTC trade, and more about CCPs greenwashing of whats a nice little earner for them. They should come right out with it.
Theres been a number of cases recently where the PR machine has churned out some rather ripe material. This should be stamped out.
CCP should come out of the closet (so to speak)
SKUNK
Fair enough. But please do note that I never said that I liked GTC sales. The central argument of my post was that GTC sales are the least worst alternative.
As for alliance war machines... from what I have seen I doubt that many of them are funded by purchasing ISK. I think more of them are funded by allowing the people who are selling ISK to pay rent. Regions like Delve, Feythablolis, etc are (or were) a byword for the swarms of obvious ISK farmers who used to infest the place under the protection of major alliances who scarcely bothered to deny that they were receiving huge amounts of ISK in return.
If GTC sales were stopped, would the ISK-farmer population rise or fall, do you think? Would the fiscal distortion of alliance warfare you are so suddenly concerned with become more or less severe?
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Malcanis
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Posted - 2008.04.09 09:01:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Cissnei
Originally by: Ironnight Paying 3 months with creditcard Ç38,85 paying with gametimecard $38,85, sorry but my mom didnt raise no sucker, keep the gametimecards.
the sucker would be you. the euro is worth substantially more than the dollar
so 39 euros is a helluva lot MORE than 39 dollars. it's nearly 50 dollars
Um... that's exactly what he's saying.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Cpt Branko
Surge. Night's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.04.09 10:11:00 -
[60]
But they don't sell ISK.
They sell GTCs... it's the players buying GTCs who are, in fact, selling ISK.
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